GDT:MAVS vs ROCKETS (home opener)

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

But most star players never started out playing with 2 superstars in their prime and another young star. Barnes might not become a star but I think saying there is no chance of him becoming one is very premature.
He certainly has the physical tools to become one but not sure he has the mental tools. The right coaching and atmosphere will be a big factor for him to take his game to the next level.

No, it's not premature at all. He is a decent athlete (not great) with no back to the basket skills, a decent shooter, a good defender, a bad passer, and a player who has limited handles for any perimeter position, including being an undersized PF. It is what it is, there is zero chance he becomes a star, and you have to be a huge homer to say otherwise. Or you didn't watch him play up until now, that's another possibility.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, it's not premature at all. He is a decent athlete (not great) with no back to the basket skills, a decent shooter, a good defender, a bad passer, and a player who has limited handles for any perimeter position, including being an undersized PF. It is what it is, there is zero chance he becomes a star, and you have to be a huge homer to say otherwise. Or you didn't watch him play up until now, that's another possibility.

A "good defender" and "decent shooter" can evolve into a great defender and great shooter if a player is given a chance. His salary will guarantee that he'll get a better opportunity to improve those skills than most players in the league.
And at 24 there certainly is an upside so I wouldn't count him out just yet considering he is in a situation that will allow him to play to his limits.
Not saying you won't be correct when all is said and done but I don't see how you can be so sure that he can never elevate to star level.

[spreedom]

My reasonable reaction to this game is that I hoped we could win it even without Dirk, but I think the Rockets are better than we are this year.

My "two games in" kneejerk reactions:

1. Wes looks absolutely awful on offense and I expect him to miss every shot
2. I don't understand what role Powell is capable of playing on this team if he don't use him rolling hard in pick and rolls
3. Deron is probably best suited as a small-ball off guard these days, but we can't afford to have him and JJ playing together because we need one of them on the floor at all times until Devin comes back
4. Simba looks good on defense but still very raw on offense
5. Curry is a fouling machine but his shooting is much-needed
6. Barnes' best position is as a small-ball four, and he might be a below-average starter at SF
7. Bogut looks really slow and has Dampier hands
8. Our best lineup might be Barea/Wes/Simba/Barnes/Dirk

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

We easily win this game if it wasn't for can't miss against the Mavs Ariza. He only misses his shots versus basically every other team.

Think there was a little more to it than that.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

You are hilarious, there is still zero chance of Barnes becoming a star, and you know how this number will change if he scores 50 in the next game? Nothing, it will stay at zero. Just think about what you are saying, and what words you are using. Do you know what a star means? Do you know that there is virtually no NBA player in the history of the game, who showed as little as Barnes - both skill-wise and in playing quality - up until they were 24, and became stars? None, not a single player, unless you count some college stars who came to the league at 23. I can't believe I have to run circles with you on this one. Or maybe star means a 16/6 player for you, in which case, you should stop using the word wrong.

Wow weird, I did a quick lookup of Jimmy Butler and after 3 years he had a similar role to Barnes. He scored 13 points off 10 shots and was a great defender with zero jumpshot. Barnes scored 12 points off 10 shots and was a good defender with a good jumpshot. When Butler was a role player like Barnes they had nearly Identical PER's in their best seasons as starters(13). Jimmy took a giant step and became a star player in an increased role, where his usage rate jumped from 17 to 22 and his PER jumped to 21. That's really weird he had a 0% chance by your logic of becoming a star. He got an opportunity with an increased role, showed 0 ability to shoot prior to this role, yet he developed a jumper and became one.

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, it's not premature at all. He is a decent athlete (not great) with no back to the basket skills, a decent shooter, a good defender, a bad passer, and a player who has limited handles for any perimeter position, including being an undersized PF. It is what it is, there is zero chance he becomes a star, and you have to be a huge homer to say otherwise. Or you didn't watch him play up until now, that's another possibility.

The only thing Barnes needs to do IMO is get to the FT line around 5 times a game like he did in college. You can't be a star player if you don't get to the FT line. If he could add 4-5 points a game from FT's he could get 16-18 from the floor. And 22/5 with good defense is a Star player. Butler showed 0 ability in 6 years prior to his breakout that he could shoot from outside. And yet there he is, a guy who improved as a shooter and became a star. Barnes has to do it in reverse, except he has shown the ability to get to the rim, just not consistently. He needs to go back to being aggressive, picking and choosing spots to drive now that he has a bigger role and he needs to find a way to get to the FT line some. He doesn't even need to get there 7-8 times just 4-5 would be enough. And if he continues to shoot like he is, it's only going to get easier to get to the FT line when guys are closing out or trying to stay on his mid range jumper.

[Bryan_Wilson]

We need a lot more from Anderson, Powell, and Curry. If you take out the garbage time 1 min at the end Curry had 4, Anderson had 9 and Powell had 2. Dwill had a great first half then slowed down. I also don't want to bash Wes for the 2nd game in a row in a young season but he has to make the open shots. Especially when we are missing Dirk and playing a division rival. And I have no idea why year after year we have guys cheating off players like Ariza to help in the paint. It's one thing if he is ice cold and hasn't been torching us. But Ariza had been torching us all game and yet... there we were, cheating off him to put pressure elsewhere.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Wow weird, I did a quick lookup of Jimmy Butler and after 3 years he had a similar role to Barnes. He scored 13 points off 10 shots and was a great defender with zero jumpshot. Barnes scored 12 points off 10 shots and was a good defender with a good jumpshot. When Butler was a role player like Barnes they had nearly Identical PER's in their best seasons as starters(13). Jimmy took a giant step and became a star player in an increased role, where his usage rate jumped from 17 to 22 and his PER jumped to 21. That's really weird he had a 0% chance by your logic of becoming a star. He got an opportunity with an increased role, showed 0 ability to shoot prior to this role, yet he developed a jumper and became one.

Holy straw man, man. I never said that I thought Butler had 0% of becoming a star. You are also totally wrong about my reasons. First of all, I don't "cap" players' careers in their sophomore years, when they are still around 20-21, and on occasions haven't even stopped growing. I did not predict anything about Butler when he was a sophomore, and I wouldn't have predicted anything about Barnes when he was 21.

Newsflash though, we are not in 2011, 2012 anymore. It's 2016, and Barnes had four full seasons in the NBA, during which he showed miniscule improvements to his game. You were in fact right, Butler did not have handles at 21, he does have handles now, though, and actually what makes him an All-Star caliber player (I think he even made it once or twice now, but could be wrong), is his ability to get to the line, and his defense.

He is not a better shooter than Barnes, he is, however, a much better defender, and much better at drawing fouls, but you know this, because that's what you wrote below, in the second part of your post.

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

The only thing Barnes needs to do IMO is get to the FT line around 5 times a game like he did in college. You can't be a star player if you don't get to the FT line. If he could add 4-5 points a game from FT's he could get 16-18 from the floor. And 22/5 with good defense is a Star player. Butler showed 0 ability in 6 years prior to his breakout that he could shoot from outside. And yet there he is, a guy who improved as a shooter and became a star. Barnes has to do it in reverse, except he has shown the ability to get to the rim, just not consistently. He needs to go back to being aggressive, picking and choosing spots to drive now that he has a bigger role and he needs to find a way to get to the FT line some. He doesn't even need to get there 7-8 times just 4-5 would be enough. And if he continues to shoot like he is, it's only going to get easier to get to the FT line when guys are closing out or trying to stay on his mid range jumper.

I agree with almost everything, and that is why I find it basically impossilble. "All he needs to do" - "If he continues to shoot like he is", based on the large sample size and his age, both of these things are very, very unlikely. I guess I was a little arrogant with that 0% prediction, it is unfair, but I do believe that his chances of becoming a star are in the single digits. Definitely. I guess not impossible, but very, very unlikely, and again, I hope you know that I would love to be wrong. Please don't paint me as an anti-fan, I'm not. I'm simply on the slightly negative, more realistic side of this forum.

[j0Shi]

Even at 0-2 there's a few things to like. Barnes is looking rock solid and it's great he's taking responsibility from the start and has the results to show for it. At some point we need Ws, but looking at out performance and the circumstances with Dirk missing today, it's not too bad.

But I think it's also quite clear this team is not a top 4 contender in the West. Saw that as ceiling floating around somewhere. Think might even have come form the Mavs themselves. Ain't happening.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Even at 0-2 there's a few things to like. Barnes is looking rock solid and it's great he's taking responsibility from the start and has the results to show for it. At some point we need Ws, but looking at out performance and the circumstances with Dirk missing today, it's not too bad.

But I think it's also quite clear this team is not a top 4 contender in the West. Saw that as ceiling floating around somewhere. Think might even have come form the Mavs themselves. Ain't happening.

Yeah, it's not a realistic goal, not without becoming an elite defensive team, which simply will not happen with two of Dirk, Jose and Williams in the lineup. Williams started the season solid, but it is ridiculous that he cannot lose weight. He is borderline fat, and the team should have fined him. With his injury history and looking like this, he clearly doesn't give a flying beep about winning, or staying healthy, otherwise he would have lost that at least 10 pounds already. I don't understand how you cannot force an NBA athlete to take care of himself, with his current weight, it is only a matter of time until he is out with an ankle or groin issue, per usual. It could happen if he'd be at around 10% body fat as well, of course, but right now he is a ticking time bomb with his current weight, and it is unprofessional, and I don't understand how the team lets him get away with it.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by spreedom

Our best lineup might be Barea/Wes/Simba/Barnes/Dirk

Barea/Deron/Simba/Barnes/Dirk

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Barea/Deron/Simba/Barnes/Dirk

I started to post this same lineup during the game but then I thought about how horrible that team would be defensively.

Carlisle has to figure out how to stagger barnes/ddirk at the 4. I really expect more from bogut and I hope that mejri is fully healthy soon.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by spreedom

My reasonable reaction to this game is that I hoped we could win it even without Dirk, but I think the Rockets are better than we are this year.

My "two games in" kneejerk reactions:

1. Wes looks absolutely awful on offense and I expect him to miss every shot
2. I don't understand what role Powell is capable of playing on this team if he don't use him rolling hard in pick and rolls
3. Deron is probably best suited as a small-ball off guard these days, but we can't afford to have him and JJ playing together because we need one of them on the floor at all times until Devin comes back
4. Simba looks good on defense but still very raw on offense
5. Curry is a fouling machine but his shooting is much-needed
6. Barnes' best position is as a small-ball four, and he might be a below-average starter at SF
7. Bogut looks really slow and has Dampier hands
8. Our best lineup might be Barea/Wes/Simba/Barnes/Dirk

Lots of good stuff here.

1. Powell was used perfectly in the preseason. You can just tell that Rick is using him in a "I don't have confidence in you" sort of way. It's weird to see him just absolutely fall off the cliff like this since he was easily our best player preseason.
2. Deron's playmaking skills and Wes's offense need dramatic work. I cannot believe I'm watching the same player who was once one of the best pgs in the league. He can shoot, but his ball handling and playmaking are just shit right now.
3. Anderson wants so badly to be good, but he needs to be level-headed about it. Stop trying so hard.
4. I would say that thank god Barnes is better at four. It might make the Dirkless era bearable to watch.
5. Bogut was better this game, but it'll be sad if center is once again the team's true weakness. The Dirk era has been plagued with mediocre to poor centers. The Deandre drama still haunts this team.


But yes, two games. And I'm not sure where all of this top 4 team stuff came from. That's the everything coming together and everyone 110% of their game ceiling. But we're not a championship team and need to focus on life after Dirk. If you don't develop the young guys now, then rebuilding will be awful.

[EricaLubarsky]

First 41 going to be rough. I knew that going in, but ouch. F the Rockets.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by spreedom

My reasonable reaction to this game is that I hoped we could win it even without Dirk, but I think the Rockets are better than we are this year.

My "two games in" kneejerk reactions:

1. Wes looks absolutely awful on offense and I expect him to miss every shot
2. I don't understand what role Powell is capable of playing on this team if he don't use him rolling hard in pick and rolls
3. Deron is probably best suited as a small-ball off guard these days, but we can't afford to have him and JJ playing together because we need one of them on the floor at all times until Devin comes back
4. Simba looks good on defense but still very raw on offense
5. Curry is a fouling machine but his shooting is much-needed
6. Barnes' best position is as a small-ball four, and he might be a below-average starter at SF
7. Bogut looks really slow and has Dampier hands
8. Our best lineup might be Barea/Wes/Simba/Barnes/Dirk

Who is Simba?

Bogut is fast for a center. He's like 7'1 260. He's got springs and is the best shot blocker on the team. He made Dirk play better defense in game 1. He will teach this team how to play defense.

Curry should be the starting PG because the defenders just go under the screen on Barea and Williams. So it's a pointless pick n roll. also I think Curry is a little more athletic than Williams and Barea. Which isn't saying much at all though.
Devin Harris is just garbage. I don't know why some fans even mention him. He's nothing but a 37% shooter that scores about 10 points even as a starter with big minutes. I'm using real examples.

This team has practically no "fast break game". No one on the roster can get a steal or block and then take it the length to JAM it or pass off for a quick JAM.

they keep drafting guys that really aren't that athletic. Then whats worse is that they never play them so they can get better.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Lots of good stuff here.

1. Powell was used perfectly in the preseason. You can just tell that Rick is using him in a "I don't have confidence in you" sort of way. It's weird to see him just absolutely fall off the cliff like this since he was easily our best player preseason.
2. Deron's playmaking skills and Wes's offense need dramatic work. I cannot believe I'm watching the same player who was once one of the best pgs in the league. He can shoot, but his ball handling and playmaking are just shit right now.
3. Anderson wants so badly to be good, but he needs to be level-headed about it. Stop trying so hard.
4. I would say that thank god Barnes is better at four. It might make the Dirkless era bearable to watch.
5. Bogut was better this game, but it'll be sad if center is once again the team's true weakness. The Dirk era has been plagued with mediocre to poor centers. The Deandre drama still haunts this team.


But yes, two games. And I'm not sure where all of this top 4 team stuff came from. That's the everything coming together and everyone 110% of their game ceiling. But we're not a championship team and need to focus on life after Dirk. If you don't develop the young guys now, then rebuilding will be awful.

Powell is garbage. punk falls down more than he rebounds or makes a catch.

you think deron is struggling "right now". Try the last 7 years since he left Jerry Sloan's coaching. You'd be silly to think carlisle could get anything decent out of his loser.

Anderson didn't get any better last season as a player, because carlisle had him sitting on the end of the bench every game. That will hurt a young players growth in the NBA. Anderson is now trying to do TOO MUCH!!!. Also I knew Rc would force feed him minutes after he missed that easy dunk/layup in the first half. Rc has a habit of babying players that make a lot of dumb mistakes. Basically the worse you are the more he'll play you. As evidence last night with Anderson getting, what 30 minutes? Haven't checked the stat sheet and really don't need to.

Bogut will be fine. the Coach isn't drawing up plays for him to catch 3 feet from the rim and just turn and shoot. The players can't feed a post entry pass. They've never been able to do that. They will try Bogut about 2 times a game on the post but they're giving it to him 10 feet from the basket where he has to take like 5 crab dribbles to back in and by then there help defense is all around. Also he's not a great post player. He's serviceable and ok if they pass to him under the rim within 3-4 feet.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Yeah, it's not a realistic goal, not without becoming an elite defensive team, which simply will not happen with two of Dirk, Jose and Williams in the lineup. Williams started the season solid, but it is ridiculous that he cannot lose weight. He is borderline fat, and the team should have fined him. With his injury history and looking like this, he clearly doesn't give a flying beep about winning, or staying healthy, otherwise he would have lost that at least 10 pounds already. I don't understand how you cannot force an NBA athlete to take care of himself, with his current weight, it is only a matter of time until he is out with an ankle or groin issue, per usual. It could happen if he'd be at around 10% body fat as well, of course, but right now he is a ticking time bomb with his current weight, and it is unprofessional, and I don't understand how the team lets him get away with it.

Mark Jackson was in you eyes always a little too much weight, right. Well Mark Jackson had GAME and FUNDAMENTALS. Also had a post game and is one of the best creaters on the pass in traffic.

Deron has no game at all. all he does is take open long jumpers. He has no fundamentals or passing ability. I could care less about a players weight. I care how smart they are in the game. If they can pass or post up and rebound...

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Holy straw man, man. I never said that I thought Butler had 0% of becoming a star. You are also totally wrong about my reasons. First of all, I don't "cap" players' careers in their sophomore years, when they are still around 20-21, and on occasions haven't even stopped growing. I did not predict anything about Butler when he was a sophomore, and I wouldn't have predicted anything about Barnes when he was 21.

Newsflash though, we are not in 2011, 2012 anymore. It's 2016, and Barnes had four full seasons in the NBA, during which he showed miniscule improvements to his game. You were in fact right, Butler did not have handles at 21, he does have handles now, though, and actually what makes him an All-Star caliber player (I think he even made it once or twice now, but could be wrong), is his ability to get to the line, and his defense.

He is not a better shooter than Barnes, he is, however, a much better defender, and much better at drawing fouls, but you know this, because that's what you wrote below, in the second part of your post.





I agree with almost everything, and that is why I find it basically impossilble. "All he needs to do" - "If he continues to shoot like he is", based on the large sample size and his age, both of these things are very, very unlikely. I guess I was a little arrogant with that 0% prediction, it is unfair, but I do believe that his chances of becoming a star are in the single digits. Definitely. I guess not impossible, but very, very unlikely, and again, I hope you know that I would love to be wrong. Please don't paint me as an anti-fan, I'm not. I'm simply on the slightly negative, more realistic side of this forum.

You're right. The other guy is a homer that doesn't know the history of the NBA.
Barnes has been a starter with 30+ minutes his whole career and has been WIDE OPEN his entire 4 year career. Also he was on the best passing team in the NBA and got the ball roughly 20 times per game and they would look for him to score and he'd be WIDE OPEN.

The Last couple of games look like luck. I don't know why they gave him so much money. They would be better off getting a draft pick and drafting a new player they can work with.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

We need a lot more from Anderson, Powell, and Curry. If you take out the garbage time 1 min at the end Curry had 4, Anderson had 9 and Powell had 2. Dwill had a great first half then slowed down. I also don't want to bash Wes for the 2nd game in a row in a young season but he has to make the open shots. Especially when we are missing Dirk and playing a division rival. And I have no idea why year after year we have guys cheating off players like Ariza to help in the paint. It's one thing if he is ice cold and hasn't been torching us. But Ariza had been torching us all game and yet... there we were, cheating off him to put pressure elsewhere.

The idea is to keep Harden's points down and also to help rebound. They don't mind leaving a mediocre shooter like ariza because they themselves feel they can "outshoot" them. They being a player like Dirk or Matthews. Also other teams "cheat" off of Dirk, Matthews, Barea, Williams and others. So they're just returning the favor.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Oh boy, this could end up being a really, really long season. We have like one two-way player on the roster (Barnes), and I fully expect him to crash down to Earth. Every lineup RC puts together is a compromise-fest, and that is not his fault. This is a severely inbalanced roster with very few two-way players, and inconsistent shooters.

Also, I checked some videos of Matthews back in Portland, while it is true that he never had much lift on his shots, right now, he looks like ho barely uses his legs for it anymore, and it's all arm. That could explain the long threes (overcompensation). I have doubts he'll ever come close to his past offensive output. It's a shame, because he was a great player, but fully successful comebacks from achilles are extremely rare. There are like two guys in NBA history who did it.

You're making excuses for the coach. You are doing the Mavericks a disservice when you do that.


It's the NBA, they're all "two way players" and even three way and 4 way.

I'm so sick of hearing novice fans say dumb terms like that.

I guess if they were the coach they would tell certain players they don't have to play defense and tell others they can never shoot even when they're open.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

You're right. The other guy is a homer that doesn't know the history of the NBA.
Barnes has been a starter with 30+ minutes his whole career and has been WIDE OPEN his entire 4 year career. Also he was on the best passing team in the NBA and got the ball roughly 20 times per game and they would look for him to score and he'd be WIDE OPEN.

The Last couple of games look like luck. I don't know why they gave him so much money. They would be better off getting a draft pick and drafting a new player they can work with.

He was not asked to score. No idea where you are getting that but based on the slew of posts you have made today you like to spout nonsense as fact. He was asked to be a catch and shoot player. If he has a shot then take it, but if it's not there then move the ball and the ball will find a better one. There are so many obvious signs that show he was not asked to do more than that. He shoots 11 shots a game, yeah that's right in line with a catch and shoot role player not a guy asked to do more than that. He had a 15.9 usage rate. Yep that's right there with Ariza's 15.7, a guy the rockets don't want doing anything but shooting a wide open jumper and nothing else.

It's 2 games in a role he's never had. To say he has a 0% chance of developing into a star caliber player is ridiculous. To say he is for sure a star is equally ridiculous. This is something extremely obvious, and it's not called homerism. It's actually called common sense, which is a misnomer because obviously it's not so common.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

He was not asked to score. No idea where you are getting that but based on the slew of posts you have made today you like to spout nonsense as fact. He was asked to be a catch and shoot player. If he has a shot then take it, but if it's not there then move the ball and the ball will find a better one. There are so many obvious signs that show he was not asked to do more than that. He shoots 11 shots a game, yeah that's right in line with a catch and shoot role player not a guy asked to do more than that. He had a 15.9 usage rate. Yep that's right there with Ariza's 15.7, a guy the rockets don't want doing anything but shooting a wide open jumper and nothing else.

It's 2 games in a role he's never had. To say he has a 0% chance of developing into a star caliber player is ridiculous. To say he is for sure a star is equally ridiculous. This is something extremely obvious, and it's not called homerism. It's actually called common sense, which is a misnomer because obviously it's not so common.

Why the attack? I'm trying to be cool man. They passed to him 20 times a game and he could then choose to score in those moments. That is what I'm saying. I watched the Warriors. They would pass to him a lot. Their whole idea is to have as many scorers all over the court as possible so they wanted him to score.

usage rates mean nothing on stacked teams. Curry's is probably a lot lower than Hardens' That doesn't mean anything. It's just a ratio of how much someone shoots, assists or rebounds compared to the players on their team.


Have you not watched him for 4 years. If he was going to be a star then GS would've kept him also he wouldn't have been completely benched his second season in the NBA by Mark Jackson.

[Marvin Jackson]

You seem pretty cool Bryan Wilson. Could I ask you as an exercise which players you've seen play and start 4 seasons with big minutes all of a sudden become a star in there 5th or 6th season. Didn't some mavs fans think parsons would do that?

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Wow weird, I did a quick lookup of Jimmy Butler and after 3 years he had a similar role to Barnes. He scored 13 points off 10 shots and was a great defender with zero jumpshot. Barnes scored 12 points off 10 shots and was a good defender with a good jumpshot. When Butler was a role player like Barnes they had nearly Identical PER's in their best seasons as starters(13). Jimmy took a giant step and became a star player in an increased role, where his usage rate jumped from 17 to 22 and his PER jumped to 21. That's really weird he had a 0% chance by your logic of becoming a star. He got an opportunity with an increased role, showed 0 ability to shoot prior to this role, yet he developed a jumper and became one.


The only thing Barnes needs to do IMO is get to the FT line around 5 times a game like he did in college. You can't be a star player if you don't get to the FT line. If he could add 4-5 points a game from FT's he could get 16-18 from the floor. And 22/5 with good defense is a Star player. Butler showed 0 ability in 6 years prior to his breakout that he could shoot from outside. And yet there he is, a guy who improved as a shooter and became a star. Barnes has to do it in reverse, except he has shown the ability to get to the rim, just not consistently. He needs to go back to being aggressive, picking and choosing spots to drive now that he has a bigger role and he needs to find a way to get to the FT line some. He doesn't even need to get there 7-8 times just 4-5 would be enough. And if he continues to shoot like he is, it's only going to get easier to get to the FT line when guys are closing out or trying to stay on his mid range jumper.

Jimmy Butler and Barnes are nothing a like. Jimmy never got the ball at all and was benched for his first couple of seasons. They pulled a RC on him and it's a miracle he became a pretty good player.
then when he finally got in the game to get an opportunity he still wasn't getting the ball. Rose would just dribble for 22 seconds then shoot up a long three. That's basically the Bulls offense. You'd be crazy to think the Bulls move the ball like the Warriors over the past 4 years.

Jimmy Butler is the stronger athlete and more explosive. He's also a better post player and better passer. Also a better defender. Also he is the better shooter.

barnes is in the NBA because he's 6'9 and went to UNC. He fooled those at UNC so therefore that is a free pass to the NBA pretty much.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

You're making excuses for the coach. You are doing the Mavericks a disservice when you do that.


It's the NBA, they're all "two way players" and even three way and 4 way.

I'm so sick of hearing novice fans say dumb terms like that.

I guess if they were the coach they would tell certain players they don't have to play defense and tell others they can never shoot even when they're open.

What are you even talking about? One-way player obviously does not mean that the player only plays either offense or defense, but rather that they are not good at one of them. Analysts, coaches, players use the term, btw. "Novice", get out of here with this condescending tone. We agree about the Butler-Barnes comparison, though think Barnes is the better shooter.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

What are you even talking about? One-way player obviously does not mean that the player only plays either offense or defense, but rather that they are not good at one of them. Analysts, coaches, players use the term, btw. "Novice", get out of here with this dumb, condescending tone, when it's you who is clueless.

It wasn't a term that was used until about 6 years ago because those in the media were trying to make it real easy for the fans. Like this guy sucks or this guy is great. There can't be a medium. you either suck or you're great. It makes it easy for the casual young fans as they're trying to market to them.

Someone like Dirk is a good defender and his job is to rebound and stay near the rim so he's not going to lock down a pg the entire game. He's not trained to do so. He's trained to wrestle with 260 pound 7 footers under the rim and maybe every now and then step out to raise a hand on a 18 foot jumper by a stretch 4.

It's all about knowing what you have and knowing how to use it.

Even someone like Willaims and Barea did ok on defense over their career. I mean just last night if they were no good Harden would've had 50, right?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I smell Cadbane...

[tap2390]

The truth is no one knows how good Barnes will be. Comparing him to other players is an exercise in futility. Does he check all the boxes? IMO he's young, athletic, smart, dedicated, has size, and less injury prone than Parsons. For me that's enough. If he doesn't pan out, it won't be because him and the organization didn't try.

[Marvin Jackson]

There is different levels of defense. That's what I'm saying. It's just just on or off.

Everyone in the NBA is "good" at defense or else they wouldn't be in the NBA. What I question sometimes is the smarts of them on offense. A lot of players take poor low % shots and settle for bad shots all game.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by tap2390

The truth is no one knows how good Barnes will be. Comparing him to other players is an exercise in futility. Does he check all the boxes? IMO he's young, athletic, smart, dedicated, has size, and less injury prone than Parsons. For me that's enough. If he doesn't pan out, it won't be because him and the organization didn't try.

He's not the Next Michael Finley. We can all agree on that. He'd make an ok 4th option. He's got no "dog" in him.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I smell Cadbane...

Was that a shot? Why do you start with attacks. I'm trying to be cool.

[Marvin Jackson]

For the record Jimmy Butler is WAY better a shooter than Barnes. It's not even close. 81 at the line. to 74 for Barnes. Butler is 36% on threes in his playoff career while Barnes being WIDE open in his playing with the best team and Curry, Thompson Green and Iggy is only like 33% on threes and only 41% overall. While Butler is 44% in his Playoff Career while taking the opponents best defense they have to offer.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

For the record Jimmy Butler is WAY better a shooter than Barnes. It's not even close. 81 at the line. to 74 for Barnes. Butler is 36% on threes in his playoff career while Barnes being WIDE open in his playing with the best team and Curry, Thompson Green and Iggy is only like 33% on threes and only 41% overall. While Butler is 44% in his Playoff Career while taking the opponents best defense they have to offer.

If you are going to make a blanket statement about shooting then why are you cherry picking playoff only stats? If you want to say he's better in the playoffs as a shooter fine but you are saying he is "WAY better than Barnes." "It's not even close". Also Butler was not taking the opponents best defense until '14-15 playoff run. And even then it's not like he was out there commanding all the defenses attention. Gasol was really good that playoff run and Rose was respectable. And lastly they played Milwaukee first then played Cleveland. So you are comparing Butler to Barnes only in terms of playoffs which Butler has played half the games Barnes has, and the sample size of Butler in the playoffs is 32 games. Let's just throw out the 300+ games both of these guys have played in the regular season and cherry pick a 32 game sample size vs a 64 game sample size because it fits your narrative. Cuz that makes sense.

Butler last year-
16 feet to inside the 3= 38.5%
3pt= 31%

Butler Career
16 feet to inside the 3=37%
3pt% 33%

Barnes last year
16 feet to inside the 3= 51%
3pt= 38%

Barnes Career
16 feet to inside the 3=40%
3pt% 38%

So no, Butler is not a better shooter than Barnes. Which btw, was never the topic. The whole Butler thing was brought up solely for the fact that he went from a dude who shot 10 shots a game with a usage of 17 as a starter, and was not a star and had shown no signs of having a consistent offensive game in 3 years in the NBA and 3 years in college. Then had a breakout year when he got a bigger role and had 14 shots a game and over 21 usage, mainly because he finally developed an outside game. Did I say Barnes would be Jimmy butler? No. All I said is you can't say he has a 0% chance of being a star. If Jimmy Butler can add a jumper to his game, an inconsistent one that goes from 38% 2 years ago to 31% last year, when he was 25 then why can't Barnes add something to his game at 24 now that he has the opportunity for a bigger role?

[Marvin Jackson]

Barnes is open while Butler is being heavily guarded. It's not apples to apples. Also many of those stats you find on NBA.com are not accurate.

Also why did you leave out Playoff stats when the pressure is on? Any good reason. Good scouts look at everything including the most important games that matter even more such as playoff games.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Barnes is open while Butler is being heavily guarded. It's not apples to apples. Also many of those stats you find on NBA.com are not accurate.

Also why did you leave out Playoff stats when the pressure is on? Any good reason. Good scouts look at everything including the most important games that matter even more such as playoff games.

I didn't leave them out you cherry picked them just fine and I even quoted them.

Edit-
Also if good scouts look at everything and you only look at playoffs... does that mean... no no it can't be I'm sure I misread that.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I didn't leave them out you cherry picked them just fine and I even quoted them.

Edit-
Also if good scouts look at everything and you only look at playoffs... does that mean... no no it can't be I'm sure I misread that.

Career Regular Season
Butler
2pt% 47.9%
3pt% 33.0%
FT% 81.1%

Barnes Reg Season Career
2pt% 47.7%
3pt% 37.7% while playing with the two best shooters in the NBA
FT% 74.0% huge shooting advantage to Butler while all things equal.


Playoffs career
Butler
2PT% 45.7%
3pt% 38.0%
FT% 81.3%


Barnes Playoffs
2PT% 45.1%
3pt% 35.5%
FT% 75.6%


So Butler beats him in 5 of the 6 major categories.

All this while Barnes is playing on the same team with an open court with Curry, Thompson and even Green.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Career Regular Season
Butler
2pt% 47.9%
3pt% 33.0%
FT% 81.1%

Barnes Reg Season Career
2pt% 47.7%
3pt% 37.7% while playing with the two best shooters in the NBA
FT% 74.0% huge shooting advantage to Butler while all things equal.


Playoffs career
Butler
2PT% 45.7%
3pt% 38.0%
FT% 81.3%


Barnes Playoffs
2PT% 45.1%
3pt% 35.5%
FT% 75.6%


So Butler beats him in 5 of the 6 major categories.

All this while Barnes is playing on the same team with an open court with Curry, Thompson and even Green.

Why are you using the 2pt fg% stat to argue shooting? I already posted the mid range and 3pt stats in response to your cherry picking playoff shooting stats so now we are adding in layups and dunks and paint scoring since it painted butlers shooting poorly

So basically all you showed me is that Butler is a better ft shooter and he makes layups and dunks better than Barnes(what a shocker). Meanwhile Barnes shoots mid range shots and 3's better across a 300 game sample size but we should ignore those stats because you don't like them. And then we should look at the smaller playoff sample size of 30 games because you do. Ok, got it.

[Marvin Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Why are you using the 2pt fg% stat to argue shooting? I already posted the mid range and 3pt stats in response to your cherry picking playoff shooting stats so now we are adding in layups and dunks and paint scoring since it painted butlers shooting poorly

So basically all you showed me is that Butler is a better ft shooter and he makes layups and dunks better than Barnes(what a shocker). Meanwhile Barnes shoots mid range shots and 3's better across a 300 game sample size but we should ignore those stats because you don't like them. And then we should look at the smaller playoff sample size of 30 games because you do. Ok, got it.

Those mid range stats on basketball reference says as a side not "these are not accurate". AT ALL.

From inside the arc Butler is better and outside the arc he's better and even at the line he's better.

In my opinion Butler on the Warriors would've been so unfair. He would've shot more like 40% on threes being open the entire season. Also he would've shot 52% on twos being setup by the Two time MVP Curry and the other best shooter in the NBA and also the TRiple double player Draymond.

Butler still would've got his 15-20 every game with the high 49-50% overall FG%. He also would get more assists per game playing on a team with Curry, Thompson, Green and Iggy.

Butler is immensely better in so many ways. It's not even close. Most experts that saw Butler play his first couple of games knew he was a All Star type player. Sure enough he is that now. He's a two time All Star and fixing to be three time All Star.

[Marvin Jackson]

look you're not taking any of my points. Who is guarded harder? That's the only thing that needs to be talked about here. One guy gets the ball with 1 second on the clock 5 times a game and has the chuck up a 30 foot fadaway while the other is setup up perfectly wide open on every single shot he's ever taken and has 10 seconds to line it up and shoot a set shot.

Who is guarded harder. I've actually watched both of their teams play.

Barnes is the sole reason why the Warriors lost last season. He shot 20% in the Finals and was getting 10 shots a game but would miss and miss and miss some more.

So lets not lie and act like he didn't have a good role on the team and like he just wasn't getting shots or minutes.

[Underdog]

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marvin Jackson

Those mid range stats on basketball reference says as a side not "these are not accurate". AT ALL.

From inside the arc Butler is better and outside the arc he's better and even at the line he's better.

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/pl...ler/shotchart/
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/pl...nes/shotchart/

I guess the whole world is conspiratorially inaccurately reporting Jimmy Butlers stats and only you know what the truth is.

Most experts that saw Butler play his first couple of games knew he was a All Star type player. Sure enough he is that now. He's a two time All Star and fixing to be three time All Star.

This is just blatantly not true. Go ahead and cite a source from 2011 to show this please.

https://espngrantland.files.wordpres...years_1152.jpg

The fact is he was not a star player till he developed a jump shot, period.