GDT: Game 11 - Mavs (6-4) at Knicks (2-9) 7:00 TNT

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's a pitiful excuse. When the game is tied and your star player is 20 years old and ON FIRE, you don't sit him for the first seven minutes of the fourth quarter.

It's not an excuse. It's reality. If he plays him longer somewhere else, he sits longer in another spot. This is not the playoffs. It is a regular season game against the Knicks in November. The team is at full strength. The other players have to learn to play without Luka on the floor.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

It's not an excuse. It's reality. If he plays him longer somewhere else, he sits longer in another spot. This is not the playoffs. It is a regular season game against the Knicks in November. The team is at full strength. The other players have to learn to play without Luka on the floor.

It's a bad coaching decision. Luka isn't some aging veteran. He's 20. If you need to play him 40 minutes to win the game, you fucking do it.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Anyone think teams are banging down the door for Seth, Powell, DFS, Delon, THJ? That's half of our rotation. And the answer is absolutely not. Which is why as much as I criticize RC I agree with what has been said the last few years. Hard to make chicken salad when the best u can make with the groceries is chicken shit. He did this lazy rotation shit with Dirk back in the day. He needs more situational awareness IMO but lets be real... the fact we couldn't handle business against a dumpster fire team like the Knicks(twice) says more about the team and it's ability(spoiler, it's lacking) more than RC imo.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

It's not an excuse. It's reality. If he plays him longer somewhere else, he sits longer in another spot. This is not the playoffs. It is a regular season game against the Knicks in November. The team is at full strength. The other players have to learn to play without Luka on the floor.

You are right about one thing though, this isn't the playoffs. You have to get to the playoffs first, which we definitely won't when we're getting swept by the Knicks... THE KNICKS.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

It's a bad coaching decision. Luka isn't some aging veteran. He's 20. If you need to play him 40 minutes to win the game, you fucking do it.

Nope. You don't want your coach to be a knee jerking fan.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Nope. You don't want your coach to be a knee jerking fan.

I don't want him to be a "knee jerking fan." I want him to WIN THE GAME.

[turin]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

It's not an excuse. It's reality. If he plays him longer somewhere else, he sits longer in another spot. This is not the playoffs. It is a regular season game against the Knicks in November. The team is at full strength. The other players have to learn to play without Luka on the floor.

Luka hadn't played since Monday. He could've handled another 5 minutes. SMH

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Rick didnt lost the games, it was the freaking roleplayer playing like poo and bricking wiiiiiide open shots or even freaking layups (like Jackson in game 1)

I won't argue that the role players sucked and have responsibility as well but at least tonight it was clear Rick had a big hand on the loss

[Dallas41]

Also I think the mavs need to go away from the 3pt shots

I understand it's a big part of today's game but if your team sucks at it why keep forcing them to shoot it

The spurs adjusted to the mid range game

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I don't want him to be a "knee jerking fan." I want him to WIN THE GAME.

Yeah worked great for a guy like Thibs to run his main guys into the ground in november

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Anyone think teams are banging down the door for Seth, Powell, DFS, Delon, THJ? That's half of our rotation. And the answer is absolutely not. Which is why as much as I criticize RC I agree with what has been said the last few years. Hard to make chicken salad when the best u can make with the groceries is chicken shit. He did this lazy rotation shit with Dirk back in the day. He needs more situational awareness IMO but lets be real... the fact we couldn't handle business against a dumpster fire team like the Knicks(twice) says more about the team and it's ability(spoiler, it's lacking) more than RC imo.

I guess the real question is wether Rick was on board with those singings. Which is why the triangle of trust can be frustrating when things aren't going well because then nobody is really held accountable.

[j0Shi]

Bullets:

• The Mavs are no longer a playoff contender until they prove us wrong. Some will point out the fact that random losses in November are not decisive, but in the West they kinda are. This was by far the easiest stretch of games and a good opportunity to get some wins, and we lost to the fucking Knicks twice. That's unacceptable and will cost you long-term. I don't care what Skin and Co are trying to sell you.
• Here's my darkest timeline to those that think we are the bright future Mavs. We have little room to improve next season and Luka definitely won't be content with missing the playoffs in his first three seasons in the NBA. Let that sink in. He is a winner and wants to win. He needs to get to the playoffs asap.
• You can't prevent big shots like the one from Morris. Kleber with some outstanding defense, just better offense. What you can control though is not playing like ass against the worst team in the league. The Mavs asked for the loss and got it.
• Gotta point to toughness as well: I think we caught the Knicks at the worst possible timing. KP return, front office calling them out. But that's why you have to match their intensity. They didn't do it six days ago and again tonight. Dallas is one of the best rebounding teams and just got trashed on the boards and in the paint. Horrible effort.
• My main issue with THJ is not that he's inefficient and one of the worst defenders on the team. It's more that just like Barnes or Wes, he doesn't fit our system. I hope Rick finally realizes that he has to change something, and trying Jackson in THJ's role is worth a shot.
• What happened to Seth Curry? He's not looking like a good player to be honest. Neither does Brunson.
• Starting Powell tonight was boneheaded. It's easy to point to his stats vs. Kleber and say he's had a better game, but let me tell you that he didn't. He had exactly one good stretch with a three and a basket. Otherwise he was missing wide-open layups and continues to be a shot show on defense.
• Talking about defense: Mavs are a good offensive team, but the lack of defense means you are not as likely to survive off-nights. This is going to be a pretty up and down season imho.
• Luka's sub pattern has to change: He normally plays 12 + 6 + 12 + 6, but it's been obvious that he needs to much time in the fourth to get back into a groove. In the second half it would be better to split it 9 + 9, at least in close games. If you have a chance to blow the game wide open, can still play him the entire third.
• I liked KP. He showed grit and did bounce back some. Not the monster game I was hoping though. Unfortunately we continue to utilize him badly. He's not a good post-up player and we treat him like prime Dirk. It's costing us.
• I didn't understand Luka driving to the basket late when we were down three. Whether that was him or Rick, it was a bad decision. We were out of timeouts with a foul to give and it was pretty clear we wouldn't be able to get a good shot off at that point.
• Luka's threes become a good indicator of the supporting cast sucking. Him throwing them up is a sign of not getting enough help. I still fell like he could avoid the difficult step-backs here and there, but this loss is obviously not on him. Another triple double.
• Kudos to the MSG btw. They gave it to KP and the Mavs. Loved the "asshole" chants. That's what decent fans should do to visiting players every fucking night. Atmosphere definitely was a factor.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Also I think the mavs need to go away from the 3pt shots

I understand it's a big part of today's game but if your team sucks at it why keep forcing them to shoot it

The spurs adjusted to the mid range game

No if they are able to create tons of wide open 3s thanks to Luka then they have to take them.

The problem is the players are bricking them. So you need to bring players on the court who dont brick them wide open. Either from the bench or via trade. But you dont stop running plays resulting in wide open threes

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Yeah worked great for a guy like Thibs to run his main guys into the ground in november

HOLY STRAW MAN ARGUMENT, BATMAN!

Yeah, Luka coming back into the game 2 minutes earlier is "running him into the ground."

Give me break.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

HOLY STRAW MAN ARGUMENT, BATMAN!

Yeah, Luka coming back into the game 2 minutes earlier is "running him into the ground."

Give me break.

You saw last season what happened with him post ASG.

NBA season is a marathon, not a sprint. Luka is allready top-12 in minutes and he isnt a prime athlet like the others around him on that list

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

HOLY STRAW MAN ARGUMENT, BATMAN!

Yeah, Luka coming back into the game 2 minutes earlier is "running him into the ground."

Give me break.

Seriously. This whole minutes restriction thing is out of control.

But hey, maybe if Rick had played Luka early in the 4th he would've been able to sit him late. Just a thought

[twistaeffect2004]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Nope. You don't want your coach to be a knee jerking fan.

Come on dude. It has nothing to do with a knee jerk response and everything to do with the reality of bad minute allocation. There’s nothing you can say that will somehow rationalize a coach sitting his two best players for 70 percent of the final quarter of a close game. Especially a heated game on national television. Watching THJ, Brunson and Bojan take pivotal shots, while singlehanded keeping a bad team alive in a raucous environment while your star 20 year old Uber super star is just sitting twiddling his thumbs as all the momentum went back to them.

Yeah this might be a November game in New York City; certainly not a playoff game. But these type of losses are what you look back on and just shake your head as to why your fishing come playoff time. Hopefully those extra 5-6 minutes we saved on Luka will help his back stroke as he’s vacationing in the Bahamas in may.

[sefant77]

Ah and to the guys talking about Rick has to go: please list the best available coaches.

This is going to be fun

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

You saw last season what happened with him post ASG.

NBA season is a marathon, not a sprint

I'm not suggesting he plays 40 minutes every night ffs. I'm suggesting that in this one specific game, when the game is tied and he's on fire to the tune of scoring 15 in a row or whatever it was at one point, you don't take him out of the game for THAT long. It clearly did take him out of his rhythm. Like Dirk never played more than 35 minutes? Are you kidding?

Let me ask to anyone defending RC's decision to sit both Luka and KP for the first 7 minutes of the 4th quarter- are the Mavericks trying to make the playoffs this season?

If they don't entertain that notion at at all, and are instead just trying to position for greater success in future years, then ok. Sit your guys as long as you want. But my impression is that the Mavs seem to actually fancy themselves playoff contenders. If so, then no, you can't afford to lose twice to the Knicks in November because you're terrified of playing your superstar MVP franchise player an extra two f*cking minutes. If the Mavs actually intend to make the playoffs, then they need to beat these inferior Eastern Conference teams. The West is too loaded.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Ah and to the guys talking about Rick has to go: please list the best available coaches.

This is going to be fun

I don't know if think this was necessarily directed at me, but I definitely don't want to fire RC. I was championing RC as coach of the Mavs when he was an ESPN analyst and people were still defending Avery Johnson. I just think he screwed up tonight.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Thank God we resigned our own guys and pissed away the cap space.

Delon Wright ($9.5m) + Seth Curry ($7.4m) + $15m wasted cap space = $31.9m

Malcolm Brogdon = $20m... Well, more like $25m, since Dallas would have had to offer more money to avoid trading a 1st round pick like Indy did to secure him early in free agency (and he WAS a free agent, so no need to trade anything to get him in the first place). An extra $20m over the course of his career would have made MB forget all about the Bucks' needs.

Dude would have been a stellar fit next Luka/KP -- he plays well off the ball, can also create, and could play better defense than he is at the moment if he wasn't the centerpiece of an offense... That was a missed opportunity.

[SMC0007]

This team is soft as a poundcake! Except Luka, the reat are little bitches.

This organization better be doing all they can to get a legit 3rd option before tdl.

[Dallas41]

The Rick Carlisle excuses are getting old and tiresome

Every year it's because he doesn't have enough talent to win

The dude has two of the top 20 or 25 players In the league on his roster now with Luka and KP

Quit making excuses for this guy

Doc rivers last year coached the hell out of a clippers team without a single all star

New Jersey was supposed to be trash last year but guess what they developed guys and only had D.Russell as a all star

Rick has two bona fide top tier players on this roster and yet he still can't beat the freaking Knicks

Almost lost to the damn wizards and struggled vs the Cavs

Stop with all the excuses for this man and hold him accountable the same way any other coach would be held accountable if his team played less than .500 ball for 5 straight years

Let that sink in for a minute the mavs are headed to another season below .500 and yet we have some fans who keep labeling our coach as a top 5 coach

What other coach in any sport is considered top 5 after 5 straight losing seasons let alone gets to keep his job?

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Delon Wright ($9.5m) + Seth Curry ($7.4m) + $15m wasted cap space = $31.9m

Malcolm Brogdon = $20m... Well, more like $25m, since Dallas would have had to offer more money to avoid trading a 1st round pick like Indy did to secure him early in free agency (and he WAS a free agent, so no need to trade anything to get him in the first place). An extra $20m over the course of his career would have made MB forget all about the Bucks' needs.

Dude would have been a stellar fit next Luka/KP -- he plays well off the ball, can also create, and could play better defense than he is at the moment if he wasn't the centerpiece of an offense... That was a missed opportunity.

With the way the suns are playing I'm starting to think that Rubio was another missed opportunity tbh

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

With the way the suns are playing I'm starting to think that Rubio was another missed opportunity tbh

I'll never come around on Rubio... I loathe bad shooters at the guard positions -- don't read too much into his early season sample size, he'll regress to his career mean.

[Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'll never come around on Rubio... I loathe bad shooters at the guard positions -- don't read too much into his early season sample size, he'll regress to his career mean.

I hear you but on the other hand we can't shoot for shit as it is now so...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

I hear you but on the other hand we can't shoot for shit as it is now so...

Touché.

[Dallas41]

Yep Rubio and Jabari Parker could've very well been legit pieces for this team

I like Wright but if your not going to play him 30 minutes a night you pretty much waisted that money

Rubio and parker would have given this team two legit starters to go with luka and kp

Rubio
Doncic
DFS
Parker
Porzingus

Much better than anything else we are trotting out right now

[fluid.forty.one]

The good news is that we don't have to face this unbeatable Knicks team again for the rest of the season.

edit: Until the finals?

[mac222b]

Luka and The Spares.

[j0Shi]

Our main problem isn't Rick. It's that at least three of our core pieces are not working so far. KP's net ratings are horrible, Seth is inefficient and invisible and Powell plays like trash. Benching them solves exactly zero issues, because we need them to be part of the solution. Otherwise this team isn't going anywhere anyway.

Imho we only have five players we can trust at the moment: Luka, Maxi, BOBAN, Wright, and Jackson, the latter on a very limited sample. If you're saying well then that's our starters, OK. But that's not a playoff team either.

[rimrocker]

I can't help but think some of the signings this summer were virtually bait for bigger deals to acquire better and more fitting players. If Curry, Wright, Maxi, DFS and Boban play anywhere near their potential, they could become decent trade pieces because they all have somewhat reasonable contracts.

Rick's stubbornness in some cases may be dictated by a bigger strategy. With a 20yo superstar, and a decent 24yo sidekick, the Mavs do have some time to construct a championship caliber roster and they probably realize it isn't going to happen in FA.

[dirt_dobber]

Very late rotation back in for the starters - gotta give yourself a better chance for a w.
Luka had a hot 3rd qtr then sits for almost half of the 4th?
Bench was not giving us much at all.
Hey Seth - 23 min and 2 pt contribution - thanks. Can you only hit uncontested 3's ?????
Kleeber 18 min and 0 points - one of my fav players let me down.
Boban 15 min - 10 points, 5 reb, played well
Brunson 15 min and 3 points - has been meh lately, I'm surprised by his inconsistency.
Team was 8-36 on 3 pointers

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

Luka had a hot 3rd qtr then sits for almost half of the 4th?

Not almost. MOST of the 4th.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Not almost. MOST of the 4th.

The same people defending that nonsense are the same ones who didn't think the offseason was so bad.

I get that minute restrictions are now a permanent part of the modern NBA, but your team has to have actually EARNED them. You can't just piss away wins when you aren't good enough. The FO put the Mavs in this position by whiffing this offseason, so what other choice is there? I guess lose games?

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'd like to take this time to mention I told ya the Fans would boo the shit out of KP.

Yeah, it was intense, part Lord of the Flies, part riotous mob. I still think that they were (mis)directing their (totally justified) anger at Dolan, Mills, Perry, and Fizdale onto KP, mostly because he was an available easy target.

Worse, KP was clearly rattled by it. If he comes out, hits his shots, Mavs put the NYKs down 20 in the first half, and the Mavs cruise, I think he gets grudging applause at least, and then things get really interesting in terms of crowd response to NYKs management.

Fuel to the fire was Bullet bouncing off the bench and giving a reasonable impersonation of a point guard, or at least the shiny toy combo guard they'd be happy to have. Meh. This game was the NIX season championship, and they won it. Kudos to them.

KP bounced back somewhat later in the game, and made enough plays and FTs to cobble a decent line; but overall his mental state was a concern. Is he fully re-habbed? Is he having trouble assimilating into the Mavs' offense? (At times the question arises whether they actually HAVE an offense, but that's another matter.)

He used to have an assassin's look in his eyes, but last night he was more Bambi than Rambo. He still seems to be struggling with his confidence; still tentative, still passive, rushing, pressing, making poor decisions. He still thinks he can put the ball on the floor (he actually seems to be a little better), and he still thinks he can draw a charge by flopping--he will NEVER get that call in that situation, and he looks ridiculous trying.

Best that can be said, I guess, is that KP's First-Return-to-MSG game is behind him, and he shouldn't come back thinking he'll ever return to a hero's welcome. Hopefully the experience with the MSG crowd hardens him without traumatizing him, and that playing before an NY crowd won't get into his head.

Regarding Luka, nice performance, mostly. He does seem to have a good competitive mentality to play in front of an extremely hostile crowd without shrinkage. But there were the three straight possessions after his Q4 return that were TO, TO, Missed 3. One could argue that he sat too long, but this isn't the first time he's been pressed into bad decisions late in a game, with the game on the line. Inexperience, one hopes. Hero Ball is a double-edged sword, great for occasions like last night, but not appropriate for everyday use.

Boban. He just don't get no respect from the officials. Keep plugging, Big Guy.

For me, another recalibration of expectations. Certainly not looking at the Mavericks as a championship contender anytime soon; or necessarily a playoff berth this season. Realistic goal: Pierce .500, and play with the situation that presents itself.

For me to watch: Keep an eye on KP's physical and mental states, looking for more confidence to result in better shot selection. Look for a greater degree of cohesion between the strengths of his game, and the strengths of Luka's game.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I get that minute restrictions are now a permanent part of the modern NBA, but your team has to have actually EARNED them. You can't just piss away wins when you aren't good enough.

This is it right here. For people arguing that you simply can't play Luka more than 35 minutes. That kind of load management is for teams that are virtually guaranteed to make the playoffs. Maybe by resting your guys you end up with the 3rd seed instead of the 1st seed, but missing the playoffs altogether is not a danger.

For a team like the Mavericks whom we know is not a title contender, but is supposedly a playoff contender? As in, just making the playoffs is our short term barometer for success? Yeah, you can't afford to piss away winnable games against arguably the worst team in the league.

I mean, I'm just astounded that people are actually defending this, as if we're arguing that Luka needs to play 40+ minutes every night. Or as if Luka's legs are just going to fall off if he comes in at the 7:30 minute mark instead of the 5:30 mark.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Regarding Luka, nice performance, mostly.

On the "glass is half full" side of things, Luka is so freaking good that 33 points and a triple double for him is now only a "nice performance, mostly."

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Yeah, it was intense, part Lord of the Flies, part riotous mob. I still think that they were (mis)directing their (totally justified) anger at Dolan, Mills, Perry, and Fizdale onto KP, mostly because he was an available easy target.

Worse, KP was clearly rattled by it. If he comes out, hits his shots, Mavs put the NYKs down 20 in the first half, and the Mavs cruise, I think he gets grudging applause at least, and then things get really interesting in terms of crowd response to NYKs management.

Fuel to the fire was Bullet bouncing off the bench and giving a reasonable impersonation of a point guard, or at least the shiny toy combo guard they'd be happy to have. Meh. This game was the NIX season championship, and they won it. Kudos to them.

KP bounced back somewhat later in the game, and made enough plays and FTs to cobble a decent line; but overall his mental state was a concern. Is he fully re-habbed? Is he having trouble assimilating into the Mavs' offense? (At times the question arises whether they actually HAVE an offense, but that's another matter.)

He used to have an assassin's look in his eyes, but last night he was more Bambi than Rambo. He still seems to be struggling with his confidence; still tentative, still passive, rushing, pressing, making poor decisions. He still thinks he can put the ball on the floor (he actually seems to be a little better), and he still thinks he can draw a charge by flopping--he will NEVER get that call in that situation, and he looks ridiculous trying.

Best that can be said, I guess, is that KP's First-Return-to-MSG game is behind him, and he shouldn't come back thinking he'll ever return to a hero's welcome. Hopefully the experience with the MSG crowd hardens him without traumatizing him, and that playing before an NY crowd won't get into his head.

Regarding Luka, nice performance, mostly. He does seem to have a good competitive mentality to play in front of an extremely hostile crowd without shrinkage. But there were the three straight possessions after his Q4 return that were TO, TO, Missed 3. One could argue that he sat too long, but this isn't the first time he's been pressed into bad decisions late in a game, with the game on the line. Inexperience, one hopes. Hero Ball is a double-edged sword, great for occasions like last night, but not appropriate for everyday use.

Boban. He just don't get no respect from the officials. Keep plugging, Big Guy.

For me, another recalibration of expectations. Certainly not looking at the Mavericks as a championship contender anytime soon; or necessarily a playoff berth this season. Realistic goal: Pierce .500, and play with the situation that presents itself.

For me to watch: Keep an eye on KP's physical and mental states, looking for more confidence to result in better shot selection. Look for a greater degree of cohesion between the strengths of his game, and the strengths of Luka's game.

Agree with you on KP, no way around the fact that he is playing SOFT... right now. It's all in his head. I'm still confused on why KP still sets half assed screens/picks and almost never rolls hard to the basket. FK. If he just doesn't get it, then it's coaches job to break it down in film sessions.The good thing is there are so many games that bad nights can dissipate after a few more games. When environments get hostile and opponents dial the intensity up, everyone EXCEPT LUKA gets a bit rattled. In those situations it all slows down for him.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

On the "glass is half full" side of things, Luka is so freaking good that 33 points and a triple double for him is now only a "nice performance, mostly."

Damn, you're right.