Bagley or Ayton - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

GermanStandard · 12-01-2017, 03:23 AM

If the Mavs could get one of them they would have a nice longterm Core of DSJ, Barnes + Bagley/Ayton.

Positions 1,3,5 Covered for the Future. Add to that massive Capspace when Wes is of the Payroll in 2 years and the Future may look bright.

I would not take Doncic, since he is playing Barnes Position and to me he has the ceiling of a slightly better Hayward which is good but not what the Mavs Need when they Count on Barnes.

Mavs Need a true Franchise Center. First they would ever have. They Need someone who can form a Great Duo with DSJ and both of Bagley and Ayton have Superstar Potential.

Right now i would go with Bagley cause he Looks to be more NBA Ready but damn Aytons Intangibles are great. Hes a massive Body with a Soft Touch. Raw, but when he is developed he Looks like Olajuwon with 3 Point Range.

MavzMan · 12-01-2017, 09:32 AM

Part of your logic is flawed. No team right now needs a "true franchise center". The center has nearly been killed off with the current league rules and enforcement. It's much better to go with the double PF or even move positions 2-4 up to 3-5 and go with a 2nd PG or SG. However, if the best player available in the draft is a C, I would still take him.

Also, I would not say Doncic and Barnes play the same position. It looks like Doncic is primarily a SG but can play up to SF. Barnes is very much in between SF and PF. There is zero reason why they can't play together and it even re-inforces the very popular "position-less basketball" we see right now on a lot of teams.

However, I'm not exactly sold on Doncic at the moment and I would still take the other guys ahead of him.

Underdog · 12-01-2017, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Part of your logic is flawed. No team right now needs a "true franchise center". The center has nearly been killed off with the current league rules and enforcement. It's much better to go with the double PF or even move positions 2-4 up to 3-5 and go with a 2nd PG or SG. However, if the best player available in the draft is a C, I would still take him.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think Ayton has the ability to "turn back the clock" on the center position. He's built like an 80s-90s center, but has the athleticism, quickness, and range of today's PF... Basically he's not going to have a problem chasing or taking guys out to the perimeter, but when it comes time to bang in the paint, most of these toothpicks around the league are going to break.

The NBA is ripe for a DeAndre Ayton takeover.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Also, I would not say Doncic and Barnes play the same position. It looks like Doncic is primarily a SG but can play up to SF. Barnes is very much in between SF and PF. There is zero reason why they can't play together and it even re-inforces the very popular "position-less basketball" we see right now on a lot of teams.

Totally agree with you there. I know he's 6-7, but with his handles and playmaking ability he's definitely more of a SG... Which would make him an EXCELLENT fit in Rick's 3-guard lineups, since we finally wouldn't be giving up any size on the defensive end.

BigDog63 · 04-09-2018, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Part of your logic is flawed. No team right now needs a "true franchise center". The center has nearly been killed off with the current league rules and enforcement.

Actually, there is a resurgence at the position in recent years. Anthony Davis probably being the lead example. You might say he's more a power forward, but in the current NBA you only have guards and bigs. He's a 'big', and having a good athletic big is indeed a real building block in today's NBA. As the old saying goes, you can't teach height, and height is also rarer. So, if you can find a good athletic big, you should grab him.

sefant77 · 12-01-2017, 09:52 AM

We are not drafting #1 and one of these guys is going to go at #1...so if we are lucky we take the other one

Bryan_Wilson · 12-01-2017, 11:59 AM

Step 1: Win the lotto to draft #1.
Step 2: Draft Ayton.
Step 3: Thank Sefant for reverse jinx.
Step 4: Watch Ayton and Woodslanger shit all over the NBA.
Step 5: ???
Step 6. Profit.

Underdog · 12-01-2017, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Step 1: Win the lotto to draft #1.
Step 2: Draft Ayton.
Step 3: Thank Sefant for reverse jinx.
Step 4: Watch Ayton and Woodslanger shit all over the NBA.
Step 5: ???
Step 6. Profit.

Co-sign.

BigDog63 · 04-09-2018, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

We are not drafting #1 and one of these guys is going to go at #1...so if we are lucky we take the other one

^^^^^

I do see mocks showing Bagley to Mavs, though. Ayton ain't happening.

turin · 12-05-2017, 02:24 PM

It's nice to dream, but with the way the Mavs are playing now, it might be better to start digging into the potential picks at 8-13. :-(

jayC · 01-04-2018, 06:15 PM

We are winning too much.

EricaLubarsky · 01-04-2018, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayC

We are winning too much.

Yup. We'll be lucky to get the 10th pick unless we have at least 2 big injuries.

We need to be looking for bargains like Giannises, Iguodalas, Thompsons, and Leonards. We're not sniffing the top five.

j0Shi · 04-09-2018, 02:56 PM

I'm not by all means a draft or college expert, but I'm not sure we should even focus on one of the bigs tbh. Doncic or Mikal Bridges are my favorites, simply because those are player/mentality types that Carlisle likes. I also hope somebody ahead of us takes Porter, and maybe we even get super lucky and a team falls for Trae Young as well.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-10-2018, 12:23 AM

And I think new players can change the landscape. I agree the traditional center isn't big now, but that can obviously change. Gobert is a good example as to why they still matter as he gets Utah wins when he is playing.

What matters most is ceiling and basically all of the top 6 talent have a high ceiling.

sefant77 · 04-10-2018, 10:42 AM

Ayton

Bagley has a much bigger bust potential

BigDog63 · 04-10-2018, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Ayton

Bagley has a much bigger bust potential

But we aren't getting Ayton, so....well, I guess we could if we got really lucky, but I'm not sure this is a discussion on luck.

FWIW...Ayton has a fair bust potential too. Bigs in the NBA have a similar record of success as top QB picks in the NFL. There are a lot more failures than successes. One of the determining criteria is athleticism, and Bagley has that. Given that, if we DID luck into that number 1 pick, I think the Mavs should think seriously about trading it, and getting several high picks. ie, would you rather have Ayton, or say, Bagley and 2 other high picks, or a good player and another high pick? I'd take the latter. Bagley could be as good, or better than Ayton, and you do well in the draft mainly through volume, not tanking. 3 players are highly likely to do better than 1 unproven player.

MavzMan · 04-10-2018, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDog63

3 players are highly likely to do better than 1 unproven player.

That may work in a video game, but not the NBA. The NBA is first and absolutely foremost a super star league. Stars get calls. Stars get league respect. Stars foul out really good players but do not foul out. If you do not have a super star, you have nothing. Period. If you think Player X is a superstar, then you get him. You do not trade down to take a chance on 3 possible really good players.

Bryan_Wilson · 04-10-2018, 01:53 PM

I can see trading down from 1-3 or 4 depending on how the players are evaluated. Much like Boston did to pass on Fultz and still getting Tatum. Would just depend on what the scouting dept has on those top 5 players.

Scoobay · 04-10-2018, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

That may work in a video game, but not the NBA. The NBA is first and absolutely foremost a super star league. Stars get calls. Stars get league respect. Stars foul out really good players but do not foul out. If you do not have a super star, you have nothing. Period. If you think Player X is a superstar, then you get him. You do not trade down to take a chance on 3 possible really good players.

Agree in principle but i think that's the rub... what if Mavs scouting doesn't think Ayton is a superstar and like Bagley or JJJ's potential as a superstar just as much or better? If you get the number one pick over a team like Phoenix that desperately wants Ayton maybe you work a trade down, still get the guy you want, and pick up an extra asset. hopefully we're in a position we could make that choice and then it'll just be how well did our scouting department do their homework.

It's unlikely sure but i think the idea is to try to maximize things first by drafting the player that's best for the team but if you can work out a way to get an extra pick then that'd be great.

sefant77 · 04-10-2018, 01:58 PM

Na, if we draft Top-2 we take one of Ayton/Doncic (or the leftover) and call it a day...

jayC · 04-14-2018, 06:57 PM

I agree if we win the lottery Ayton is a no brainier. I have heard he is a generational talent.

GermanStandard · 04-16-2018, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayC

I agree if we win the lottery Ayton is a no brainier. I have heard he is a generational talent.

Cant go wrong with either Bagley or Ayton. Both are Franchiseplayers.

The Thing is that Ayton is already pretty dominant defensively while Bagley was pedestrian although he has the Intangibles.

Ayton Looks like Hakeem the Dream with 3 Point Range.

He will dominate the League in a few years.

hayth.james.g · 04-16-2018, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GermanStandard

Cant go wrong with either Bagley or Ayton. Both are Franchiseplayers.

The Thing is that Ayton is already pretty dominant defensively while Bagley was pedestrian although he has the Intangibles.

Ayton Looks like Hakeem the Dream with 3 Point Range.

He will dominate the League in a few years.

Ayton was hardly dominant defensively.

Bryan_Wilson · 04-16-2018, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

Ayton was hardly dominant defensively.

Agreed. His defense is actually the only real knock against him imo. A guy with the tools and size he has should not have such pedestrian blocks and steals stats in college basketball. And worse he shouldn't look as poor as he does at things like defensive rotations and sadly, effort. I agree with the ayon over bagley part just not the dominant defense part. Hopefully one day but not even remotely close right now.

Scoobay · 04-16-2018, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Agreed. His defense is actually the only real knock against him imo. A guy with the tools and size he has should not have such pedestrian blocks and steals stats in college basketball. And worse he shouldn't look as poor as he does at things like defensive rotations and sadly, effort. I agree with the ayon over bagley part just not the dominant defense part. Hopefully one day but not even remotely close right now.

sorry to pile on but Olajuwon was an athletic, dominant defensive player in college. he worked hard to develop the post game and shooting to where it was in the peak of his career but his calling card was defense and athleticism (dunking, phi slamma jamma, etc.)

last year of college stats included 16.8 ppg on .675 fg% and .526 FT%, 13.5 rpg, 1.3 ast, 1.6 stls, and 5.6 blocks/game. that was averaging 34 mpg. the year before averaged 5.1 blocks/game in 27+ minutes/game.

Ayton is kinda the opposite - seemingly very well developed offensive game, shooting and all, but nowhere near the factor on defense as Olajuwon.

off the top of my head i can't think of someone who came in and developed a dominant defensive game at center during their NBA career. Most bigs known as rim protectors seem to come in already having that. Ewing average 3+ blocks/game in college. D Rob averaged 4, 5.9, then 4.5 blocks/game his last 3 years of college. Duncan was well over 3 blocks/game in college, etc. I will say that with Ayton we only have his freshman year for comparison whereas these other bigs i'm thinking of had 3 years of college at least. So I'm sure there's hope for him to develop that.

EricaLubarsky · 04-16-2018, 10:01 AM

Ayton reminds me a lot more of a bigger (taller/more muscular) Greg Monroe than Olajuwon to be honest. Skilled offense. Terrible defense. Not great motivation.

Maybe he can learn to play harder and with better defense, but right now I'm not sure the comparison is apt.

MavzMan · 04-16-2018, 10:11 AM

Interesting opinions on Ayton and kind of backs up his #2 overall pick status from The Ringers. This draft will be even more fun if someone picks Doncic #1 overall.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-16-2018, 12:51 PM

You get a choice of two sides of the spectrum with the top 4 big men in this draft...

C Ayton offense- C Bamba defense
PF Bagley offense- PF JJJ defense

The most versatile of them is JJJ who looks like he could play either position, but he is still, imo, the most raw of the four. If people think JJJ is going to come in next season and dominate, then they are going to be disappointed.

But once again, the ceiling for all four of these guys is high, and that's all you can ask for.

Bryan_Wilson · 04-16-2018, 01:11 PM

JJJ scares me some but at the same time it's almost like drafting and red shirting a player. And with how young he is it wouldn't matter if he had low playtime. We would likely be drafting near the top again next year when he would make a bigger impact. Good long term pick but short term I agree with DH he will not be putting up numbers like the other top picks I'd guess.

MavzMan · 04-16-2018, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

And with how young he is it wouldn't matter if he had low playtime

I've seen it mentioned a few times that whoever we draft may not get a lot of playtime. I'm curious why you would think that. The only reason I think DSJ got minimal time was our attempt to maintain a high draft pick this year. If we are drafting a franchise player this year to go with DSJ, I want them both getting 38+ mpg. Let them fail and learn on the court. If something needs to be said, then RC can pull them out, talk to them, give them a minute to think about it, but then put them right back into the fire.

BPo001 · 04-16-2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

I've seen it mentioned a few times that whoever we draft may not get a lot of playtime. I'm curious why you would think that. The only reason I think DSJ got minimal time was our attempt to maintain a high draft pick this year. If we are drafting a franchise player this year to go with DSJ, I want them both getting 38+ mpg. Let them fail and learn on the court. If something needs to be said, then RC can pull them out, talk to them, give them a minute to think about it, but then put them right back into the fire.

I don't think DSJ would have survived the season if played 38 MPG. He clearly hit the rookie wall. That's a lot for a rookie when they aren't used to playing 82 games.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-16-2018, 03:03 PM

Smith jr played 30mpg. Not sure it's realistic to have expected more minutes. It's not always the right thing to run a rookie to death their first year.

I can assure you this year's pick will get minutes. Rick's job is on the line, for sure. You can't just keep losing forever with no repercussions. The only way you get through losing as a coach in this league is by developing young players into something more.

BPo001 · 04-16-2018, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Smith jr played 30mpg. Not sure it's realistic to have expected more minutes. It's not always the right thing to run a rookie to death their first year.

I can assure you this year's pick will get minutes. Rick's job is on the line, for sure. You can't just keep losing forever with no repercussions. The only way you get through losing as a coach in this league is by developing young players into something more.

Cuban is on record as saying that Rick is our Jerry Sloan. Not to say that he couldn't get fired if we miss the playoffs for the next 5 years, but I think Rick is safe as long as he wants to be here.

jayC · 04-21-2018, 07:26 PM

Ayton to me is the best big in the draft. Charles Barkley called Ayton the best big man in 20 years in college basketball. I heard he compares with David Robinson. If we pick at 3 I hope that Bagley slips to us.

Quetzalcoatl · 04-22-2018, 04:04 PM

I think I would choose Ayton. Good center for the future.

EricaLubarsky · 04-22-2018, 06:00 PM

Ayton is Monroe/Wright in the body of Howard/Jordan

sefant77 · 04-22-2018, 07:41 PM

Bagley is Beasley in the body (except brain) of Beasley

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-22-2018, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Bagley is Beasley in the body (except brain) of Beasley

Beasley is 6'9 and Bagley is 6'11. Bagley is also infinitely better at rebounding. Seen this silly comparison on the interwebs and well, it's silly.

EricaLubarsky · 04-22-2018, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Beasley is 6'9 and Bagley is 6'11. Bagley is also infinitely better at rebounding. Seen this silly comparison on the interwebs and well, it's silly.

Rasheed Wallace, Lamarcus Aldridge, or Chris Bosh is a better comparison for game/body. At least physically he’s 100% your big PF.

Dude is 6’11” with good musculature. He could probably support another 10lbs, but he’s a big boy with a fairly developed game.

Not sure I’m as high on Bagley as others but there’s no denying his physical toolset.

Zeus · 01-27-2019, 10:08 PM

This thread didn't age well lol.

EricaLubarsky · 01-29-2019, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

This thread didn't age well lol.

Least I was spot on with Ayton

Luckily missed Doncic by a mile. Thought he’d be great but not superb. Also thought that him coming would mean we’d need to revamp the whole roster around him— well I got one thing right.