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Old 06-08-2016, 10:21 PM   #41
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Addition by subtraction.
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Old 06-09-2016, 07:23 AM   #42
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Happy for RJ's performance - 9pts, 8reb, 2ast, 2steals
loved his intensity. Cavs came out with correct sense of urgency.

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Old 06-09-2016, 08:17 AM   #43
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I actually think Love might be most effective coming off of the bench. He is an incredibly talented, but also incredibly limited player. He needs a highly specialized role that plays to his strengths..
That's a good idea. They should use him like GS does Iguodola. But can his ego take that? He does seem like a laid back dude, but that's a pretty big shock especially since he is technically still in his prime.
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Old 06-09-2016, 08:24 AM   #44
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That's a good idea. They should use him like GS does Iguodola. But can his ego take that? He does seem like a laid back dude, but that's a pretty big shock especially since he is technically still in his prime.
We'll probably find out tomorrow night, because I'm betting Lue will bring Love off of the bench in game 4. After what happened last night, Lue would be stupid not to go with what works.

Love doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would be offended by a reduced roll. He doesn't seem to handle pressure well at all. Maybe taking some of the pressure off of him would benefit him. Either way, Cleveland is far better defensively with Love off the floor.
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Old 06-09-2016, 08:50 AM   #45
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There was already talk about the Cavs trading Love if they don't win a championship this year. He's got 4 more years after this year and next year's salary is $21 mill. What can they get for him? I don't see much honestly.
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Old 06-09-2016, 08:54 AM   #46
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Also, as much as I would love to believe that game 3 was a turning point, and that the Cavs are going to continue this path and win the series, I think it's more likely that this is as close as they will get to the championship. They might win another game, but no way will they win 3 out of 4 against these Warriors. Their game 3 blowout not only required Lebron and Irving to put up 30 each, but Tristan Thompson and JR Smith both had to play WAY over their heads, AND the Warriors just flat out played like dogsh*t.

Lebron and Irving might continue to put up big numbers, but Thompson will not continue to dominate the glass, Smith's ill-advised shots will resume not falling, and the Warriors will almost certainly not go to sleep again.

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Old 06-09-2016, 09:02 AM   #47
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Easiest money Ive ever made last night. Once Love was confirmed out, it was all in on Cavs. If he plays game 4, it should come with the second unit. Much more flowing offense and spaced better with better defense last night. Obviously all of that isnt on Love, but some is.
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Old 06-09-2016, 12:34 PM   #48
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Easiest money Ive ever made last night. Once Love was confirmed out, it was all in on Cavs. If he plays game 4, it should come with the second unit. Much more flowing offense and spaced better with better defense last night. Obviously all of that isnt on Love, but some is.
Completely agree. He should come off the bench and he should exclusively play the 5. He simply isn't athletic enough to play anything else against the Warriors.

Tristan Thompson should get 30+ minutes the rest of the series.

Another thought, last year Steph Curry wasn't Finals MVP. This year he is averaging 16 points a game on 43.6% shooting and 5 turnovers a game. Not to mention Draymond Green seems to be the emotional leader of the team. If Curry wants to be considered one of the greatest ever he needs to step up on the biggest stage. Similar to the 2011 Mavs the Warriors are deep and versatile, but there was never any question that Dirk was the number one option and we were only going as far as he was going to take us.
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Old 06-09-2016, 01:49 PM   #49
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It occurred to me just now, the Cavs victory last night had as much to do with Lebron's place in the lineup as it did with Love being out. With Love out, Lebron moved back to the 4, which these days is his natural position- he's far more comfortable nowadays in the post than he is on the perimeter (amazing how much his game has changed over the years.) He was guarding Green, and was far more effective than Love or Thompson had been.

I think the best option for the Cavs going forward is to use Love as their backup 5. It makes sense because their bench is dreadful, and Love might very well thrive in that role.
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Old 06-09-2016, 01:54 PM   #50
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Another thought, last year Steph Curry wasn't Finals MVP. This year he is averaging 16 points a game on 43.6% shooting and 5 turnovers a game. Not to mention Draymond Green seems to be the emotional leader of the team. If Curry wants to be considered one of the greatest ever he needs to step up on the biggest stage. Similar to the 2011 Mavs the Warriors are deep and versatile, but there was never any question that Dirk was the number one option and we were only going as far as he was going to take us.
I agree. Curry is a phenomenal player, but he's got a ways to go before he's in that Jordan/Kobe/Lebron stratosphere that so many have put him in already.
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Old 06-09-2016, 09:46 PM   #51
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Also, as much as I would love to believe that game 3 was a turning point, and that the Cavs are going to continue this path and win the series, I think it's more likely that this is as close as they will get to the championship.
1st round vs HOU - GSW won 4-1 and lost game 3
2nd round vs POR - GSW won 4-1 and lost game 3
3rd round vs OKC - GSW won 4-3 so series was a little different

So yeah, not surprising that CLE would win game 3 being their first game back on their home court.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:55 PM   #52
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Looks like the closest, most-contested ballgame of the series so far... Cavs rebounding keeping them in this.
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Old 06-10-2016, 09:49 PM   #53
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Corner turned?
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:01 PM   #54
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Super Splash Bros.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:02 PM   #55
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5 or 6?
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:04 PM   #56
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I think it's over on Monday. And I think the Warriors win big.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:36 PM   #57
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I think it's over on Monday. And I think the Warriors win big.
Yep. Cavs have tried everything they're capable of, they're just outmatched and don't have an experience enough coach to push them to a higher level... This only goes 6 if GS completely chokes, which I don't see happening. Blood in the water.
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Old 06-11-2016, 01:29 AM   #58
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Yep. Cavs have tried everything they're capable of, they're just outmatched and don't have an experience enough coach to push them to a higher level... This only goes 6 if GS completely chokes, which I don't see happening. Blood in the water.
Overmatched is absolutely right. The Cavs really don't have much outside of their big 2 (does Love even count as part of a "big three" at this point?) Dellavedova is garbage, Shumpert is only slightly better, JR Smith is in the running for worst chucker in NBA history along with Antoine Walker and Quentin Richardson. Everyone else are role-players at best.

As they are currently constructed, they might continue to dominate the pathetically weak East, but if they want to have a real chance in the Finals before Lebron starts to seriously decline, they really need to overhaul their roster. They're not particularly good defensively, and they're outright atrocious behind the 3pt line, and today's NBA absolutely revolves around the 3pt shot.
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Old 06-11-2016, 02:38 AM   #59
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Overmatched is absolutely right. The Cavs really don't have much outside of their big 2 (does Love even count as part of a "big three" at this point?) Dellavedova is garbage, Shumpert is only slightly better, JR Smith is in the running for worst chucker in NBA history along with Antoine Walker and Quentin Richardson. Everyone else are role-players at best.

As they are currently constructed, they might continue to dominate the pathetically weak East, but if they want to have a real chance in the Finals before Lebron starts to seriously decline, they really need to overhaul their roster. They're not particularly good defensively, and they're outright atrocious behind the 3pt line, and today's NBA absolutely revolves around the 3pt shot.
Some team will trade for Love. But his value is at its all-time low. I dont think theyll get an all-star level guy back for him and picks dont really help them win now. Tristan Thompson is a pretty good but gets panda shit ton. They are in a strange spot. Wouldn't be shocked to see LeBaby flee back to Miami. I think he'll push he'd for Melo and or Cp firstthough
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:59 AM   #60
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I may be in the minority but I think Lebron was horrible last night. He stopped moving the ball, he stopped closing out, and he stopped boxing out. At least twice in the fourth quarter I saw Kyrie (who was on fire) call for the ball only to have Lebron dribble for 12 seconds before jacking up a long distance shot. Lebron also gave up some huge offensive rebounds through sheer lack of effort. Maybe he's tired, maybe he's giving up, but I don't see Lebron winning another ring ever. (Also as much as I dislike Draymond Green, stepping over him while he was down was a dick move, Draymond had every right to be pissed).

I think this series will also have the effect of KD resigning with the Thunder. He has to know OKC let a championship slip out of their grasp.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:44 AM   #61
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Have I mentioned that the Eastern Conference is terrible? The Blazers, Clippers, Spurs and Thunder could have beaten the Cavs.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:57 AM   #62
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Have I mentioned that the Eastern Conference is terrible? The Blazers, Clippers, Spurs and Thunder could have beaten the Cavs.
Pretty much. Like I said before, the Cavs can continue to win the East but if they want to win in the finals they need to overhaul their roster. I'm not sure what they can get for Love at this point, but I'd say for them to have any shot against the contenders of the West they need A: a Bruce Bowen-type defensive wingman who can hit open 3's, B: an athletic big man who can run the floor and defend the pick and roll, C: at least one really reliable 6th man to carry the offense when Lebron and Irving are off the floor.

Until they get those things, they're doomed to get annihilated by any decent team from the West.
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:44 AM   #63
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Have I mentioned that the Eastern Conference is terrible? The Blazers, Clippers, Spurs and Thunder could have beaten the Cavs.
To be the best you have to beat the best -- cakewalking through the East isn't exactly preparing the Cavs for a real fight... That's why they buckle the second they get popped in the mouth.

Also, can we finally start having a sober conversation about LeBron's legacy? Dude has been to the last 6 Finals, only has 2 rings... Sure, you can blame his team, but you also have to acknowledge that he's basically been the GM for the last 6 years, so he deserves some of that blame himself... He took Bosh when he could have had Dirk, he pushed to trade Wiggins instead of an ill-fitting Irving, and he thought the king of empty stats, Kevin Love, was going to make an awesome sidekick... It's time for LeBron to start owning his failures as a superstar.
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:07 PM   #64
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Also, can we finally start having a sober conversation about LeBron's legacy? Dude has been to the last 6 Finals, only has 2 rings... Sure, you can blame his team, but you also have to acknowledge that he's basically been the GM for the last 6 years, so he deserves some of that blame himself... He took Bosh when he could have had Dirk, he pushed to trade Wiggins instead of an ill-fitting Irving, and he thought the king of empty stats, Kevin Love, was going to make an awesome sidekick... It's time for LeBron to start owning his failures as a superstar.
That's a bit harsh. Can't say I agree with that assessment at all. #1- He didn't pick Bosh over Dirk. It was Wade AND Bosh over Dirk. 2011 finals aside, they won 2 rings and I don't think he has ever regretted that decision for a microsecond, nor should he. #2- Wiggins was nothing more than a high draft pick at that point, where as both Irving and Love were bonafied proven stars. You can say that Love is all empty stats, yes, but monster numbers are monster numbers, and there was really no reason to believe at the time that he couldn't function as a third option on a contending team. If the Cavs had it to do over today, I'm sure they would choose differently, but when you're in "win now" mode, no way do you choose a rookie over a three time all-star- unless that rookie is Shaq or Duncan.

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Old 06-11-2016, 12:26 PM   #65
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^^ Also, he might be the de facto GM in Cleveland but he damn sure wasn't that in Miami. Pat Riley rules that franchise with an iron fist. No player, not Lebron, Shaq, Wade, or anyone else tells Riley how to run his organization.

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Old 06-11-2016, 12:36 PM   #66
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Let's not let the impossible greatness of Golden State totally negate what has been a great season for the Cavs. I'm so bored with the binary "second place is the first loser" mentality. The Warriors are just too good. It's not that LeBron sucks, his teammates suck, or the East sucks. They've all been pretty great this season. They're just running into the buzzsaw to end all buzzsaws.
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:58 PM   #67
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Let's not let the impossible greatness of Golden State totally negate what has been a great season for the Cavs. I'm so bored with the binary "second place is the first loser" mentality. The Warriors are just too good. It's not that LeBron sucks, his teammates suck, or the East sucks. They've all been pretty great this season. They're just running into the buzzsaw to end all buzzsaws.
THANK YOU!! +rep

I swear, to hear people talk you'd think that Cavs have been a lottery team these past two years. Yes the East is weak, but getting to the finals two years in a row is still a great accomplishment (let alone 6 years in a row in Lebron's individual case.) These Warriors are just insanely, historically good. They just own the NBA. It's almost unfair.

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Old 06-11-2016, 03:26 PM   #68
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To me, getting to the Finals SIX YEARS IN A ROW boosts his resume more than going 2-4 hurts it.

Jordan going 6-0 in the Finals just throws the whole thing off. TBQH I think LeBron over the past 5-6 years has been better than Jordan ever was, but they're different players in different eras.
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:46 PM   #69
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To me, getting to the Finals SIX YEARS IN A ROW boosts his resume more than going 2-4 hurts it.

Jordan going 6-0 in the Finals just throws the whole thing off. TBQH I think LeBron over the past 5-6 years has been better than Jordan ever was, but they're different players in different eras.
Sorry, but in no world was Lebron ever better than MJ. Especially not in the mental toughness and intangibles department. MJ wasn't a great teammate but he had a mental fortitude I've only seen Kobe, Dirk, and Duncan come close to matching since. MJ also played before the hand check rule and got absolutely pummeled.

Finals six years in a row is without a doubt a feat, but we all know that Lebron wouldn't have been able to do that in the West. Lebron chose the best situation for him by going to Miami then back to Cleveland. The fact that MJ accomplished what he did with the team he was drafted with speaks volumes.
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Old 06-11-2016, 09:43 PM   #70
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Sorry, but in no world was Lebron ever better than MJ. Especially not in the mental toughness and intangibles department. MJ wasn't a great teammate but he had a mental fortitude I've only seen Kobe, Dirk, and Duncan come close to matching since. MJ also played before the hand check rule and got absolutely pummeled.

Finals six years in a row is without a doubt a feat, but we all know that Lebron wouldn't have been able to do that in the West. Lebron chose the best situation for him by going to Miami then back to Cleveland. The fact that MJ accomplished what he did with the team he was drafted with speaks volumes.
Not directing this towards you in particular, but holy shit do I hate the "LeBron isn't 'mentally tough' but Kobe is" despite the fact that LeBron is better than Kobe at literally every single aspect of basketball, including clutch scoring. Kobe is basically Tracy McGrady except he got seven years of prime Shaq on his team. Without Shaq or Pau Gasol (the two guys who were the best players on all six championship teams Kobe was a part of) Kobe probably wouldn't have any rings. Would we be talking about his killer intensity and insane work ethic if he hadn't won as part of all-time great teams?

And as much as I love Jordan, and he's the reason I ever got into basketball like so many 20- or 30-somethings, but I don't worship at the altar anymore. He was a great, great, great player who paved the way for athletes all over the world, but he wasn't even the best player on the second set of three-peats. Scottie Pippen has got to be the most underrated all-time great the game has ever seen.

LeBron deserves plenty of blame for his teams not winning more championships than they did (which I think has way more to do with his front office influence than his actual play), but he's been 2-1 as a favorite in the series he's been in (0-4 as an underdog, assuming the Cavs lose this year). The only series the Cavs/Heat were favored in that they lost was against the Mavs.

TL;DR -- I'm bored of MJ idol worship and LeBron's Finals failures are overblown
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:16 AM   #71
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Not directing this towards you in particular, but holy shit do I hate the "LeBron isn't 'mentally tough' but Kobe is" despite the fact that LeBron is better than Kobe at literally every single aspect of basketball, including clutch scoring. Kobe is basically Tracy McGrady except he got seven years of prime Shaq on his team. Without Shaq or Pau Gasol (the two guys who were the best players on all six championship teams Kobe was a part of) Kobe probably wouldn't have any rings. Would we be talking about his killer intensity and insane work ethic if he hadn't won as part of all-time great teams?

And as much as I love Jordan, and he's the reason I ever got into basketball like so many 20- or 30-somethings, but I don't worship at the altar anymore. He was a great, great, great player who paved the way for athletes all over the world, but he wasn't even the best player on the second set of three-peats. Scottie Pippen has got to be the most underrated all-time great the game has ever seen.

LeBron deserves plenty of blame for his teams not winning more championships than they did (which I think has way more to do with his front office influence than his actual play), but he's been 2-1 as a favorite in the series he's been in (0-4 as an underdog, assuming the Cavs lose this year). The only series the Cavs/Heat were favored in that they lost was against the Mavs.

TL;DR -- I'm bored of MJ idol worship and LeBron's Finals failures are overblown
I can't say I agree at all with your assessment of MJ and Kobe (Gasol was better than Kobe??? Pippen was better than MJ?????) I understand being sick of MJ idol worship, but for me personally it's no sentimental "idol" thing. I just don't believe there has ever been- or probably ever will be- another player as good as he was. Championships, career accolades, individual numbers... I think by any conceivable measure we have of gauging greatness, MJ objectively almost HAS to be the G.O.A.T. You could make a case for a couple of others- Kareem, maybe Wilt, but that's about it.

That being said however, I do think the whole "mental toughness" aspect of the game is EXTREMELY overrated by fans. The best players who win the most championships tend to be the ones with the most talent and athletic ability. Mental toughness is rarely a real factor in the outcome of a playoff series (I'll admit though, we did just see OKC seemingly have a mental breakdown against GSW.)
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:09 AM   #72
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Gasol was definitely better than Kobe for the last two Lakers titles and I'll stand by my comment on Pippen... After his first retirement, Jordan came back and basically played center field on defense... I'd consider Pippen the better player just like so think LeBron is better than Curry today.

And for all-time greatest, I have Bill Russell at the top of my list... Jordan's right there next to Duncan and Bird. I admire Jordan as an individual talent/athlete more than I do as an "ultimate team player" kind of guy, and at least for me personally, you can't be the all-time best at a team sport of you aren't even a good teammate.

Last edited by spreedom; 06-12-2016 at 06:15 PM. Reason: "Gasol" autocorrected to "Basil"... Mr. Fawlty was not part of either Lakers championship roster.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:29 PM   #73
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Marc J. Spears: GSW’s Green assessed Flagrant 1 triggering a suspension for Finals Gm 5. CLE’s James assessed technical foul.
– via Twitter MarcJSpearsESPN
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:08 AM   #74
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Marc J. Spears: GSW’s Green assessed Flagrant 1 triggering a suspension for Finals Gm 5. CLE’s James assessed technical foul.
– via Twitter MarcJSpearsESPN
Logically that should be a big advantage for Cleveland, but I think it's only going to light a fire under the Warriors' ass. Warriors by double digits.
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:48 AM   #75
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interesting that the betting line went from 6.5 to 6 - I thought that it would move more.
GSW wins tonight!
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Old 06-13-2016, 09:01 AM   #76
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I guess I am somewhere in the middle on this. I definitely think LeBron's reaching the Finals 6 years in a row should be something that works in his favor, even at 2-4.
I'm absolutely willing to put him up there with the greats. That said, I still would not rank him above Jordan. But it's not a blowout.
It's so difficult to compare players from different eras.
Unlike some fans or players, I tend to think that over time the league and its players simply get better due to things like kids starting to shoot hoops earlier, better training technology, better understanding of analytics. So if you give me player A vs. player B who played 15-20 years later, I'll always take player B as the better player in the sense of matching them up on the court during their primes (which is an impossible experiment of course). I think LeBron in his prime is a better player than Jordan in his prime. But you can't really compare players this way because 1) To be fair to LeBron, he goes up against tougher competition in today's NBA than Jordan did; and 2) To be fair to Jordan, you can't blame him for not proving himself against players that didn't take the court until 20 years later.
All you can do is be the best of your era. And they have both done that.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:10 AM   #77
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I guess I am somewhere in the middle on this. I definitely think LeBron's reaching the Finals 6 years in a row should be something that works in his favor, even at 2-4.
I'm absolutely willing to put him up there with the greats. That said, I still would not rank him above Jordan. But it's not a blowout.
It's so difficult to compare players from different eras.
Unlike some fans or players, I tend to think that over time the league and its players simply get better due to things like kids starting to shoot hoops earlier, better training technology, better understanding of analytics. So if you give me player A vs. player B who played 15-20 years later, I'll always take player B as the better player in the sense of matching them up on the court during their primes (which is an impossible experiment of course). I think LeBron in his prime is a better player than Jordan in his prime. But you can't really compare players this way because 1) To be fair to LeBron, he goes up against tougher competition in today's NBA than Jordan did; and 2) To be fair to Jordan, you can't blame him for not proving himself against players that didn't take the court until 20 years later.
All you can do is be the best of your era. And they have both done that.
When I think of ranking all-time greats, I think of two main criteria, and they're almost antithetical to each other- the extent to which the player dominated his own era, and which player could dominate ANY era. Another way of putting the second part would be- if I can pick any player from any era to build a team around today, who would be? I tend to rank the second category a little higher than the first- which is why someone like Bill Russell probably wouldn't make my top 10. Nobody will ever top 11 titles in 13 years, so Russell has to be in the discussion of all-time greats, but I think if he played today, he might be an all-star, but I doubt much else.

There's no way to know for sure obviously, but I think if Jordan played the game today he'd be just dominant. He was just that good. He might have to adjust his style in a less iso-based league, but I think that Bulls team would still win multiple championships today and he'd still put up monsterous numbers.

No way to prove that of course. What I do know is that Lebron could retire today and he'd easily be top 10 all-time, and winning only two championships out of six sure as hell doesn't put him much lower as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:12 PM   #78
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My opinion is that Lebron should not be considered as THE greatest of all time. I think it should only be MJ (my #2) and Wilt (my #1).

I truly believe that Wilt would still dominate in today's game even if not by quite as much, which if you go back and look at his numbers, they were just insane. His career numbers were 30.1 ppg and 22.9 rpg. How many players are able to get 20 rebounds for a single game? Where he averaged that over his entire career. Not to mention his 100 point game. Too much scoring? He led the league in assists one year ... while averaging a paltry 24.3 ppg and still 23.8 rebounds.

I have no problem with people saying MJ was the greatest, but I really only put those two in the discussion. Anyone else is in tier 2 ... which don't get me wrong, is still absolutely amazing.

Watch this video and then tell me Lebron is better than this guy:
Wilt Chamberlain - A Real Superman
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:58 PM   #79
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My opinion is that Lebron should not be considered as THE greatest of all time. I think it should only be MJ (my #2) and Wilt (my #1).

I truly believe that Wilt would still dominate in today's game even if not by quite as much, which if you go back and look at his numbers, they were just insane. His career numbers were 30.1 ppg and 22.9 rpg. How many players are able to get 20 rebounds for a single game? Where he averaged that over his entire career. Not to mention his 100 point game. Too much scoring? He led the league in assists one year ... while averaging a paltry 24.3 ppg and still 23.8 rebounds.

I have no problem with people saying MJ was the greatest, but I really only put those two in the discussion. Anyone else is in tier 2 ... which don't get me wrong, is still absolutely amazing.

Watch this video and then tell me Lebron is better than this guy:
Wilt Chamberlain - A Real Superman
Stats back in the 60's and 70's (hell, even in the 80's to a lesser extent) were ridiculously inflated due to how much faster the pace was, how much more minutes guys played, and the fact that sophisticated defenses hadn't developed yet. This guy gives a really good mathematical breakdown of how much the game has changed and why players' stats back then aren't *quite* as impressive as they look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOS7lNTABzc If you put someone like Dwight Howard back in the 60's, I think he would put up truly insane numbers too.

That being said, Wilt was a truly phenomenal athlete, and I think he would absolutely be a superstar in today's NBA. He makes my top 5 pretty easily.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:13 PM   #80
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Suspending a player for the finals is so unheard of that the last time it happened, it was a Mavericks player in the rigged 2006 series against the Heat
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