Dallas Mavericks Offseason Thread - Page 152 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

badfish22 · 08-12-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

The one problem with that is that Camby himself is an expiring.

An expiring, yes, but not instant cap relief like Buckner.

Thats the key. We give them buckner and cash to pay off his contract. Plus a few other expiring deals to help them save money later.

sefant77 · 08-12-2009, 07:01 PM

Looks like Sterling IS willing to pay this season for sucess, they just took R. Butler. So i dont see them necessary dump Camby. Maybe they do if they think Kaman/Jordan is enough...

EricaLubarsky · 08-12-2009, 07:13 PM

Camby is fragile but he's a better center and a better center for that team than Kaman, especially playing along side Blake Griffin. Theres no reason to believe theyd rather trade Camby over Kaman, unless Camby says that he'll leave at the end of the season.

If the Clips smell success, they'll be sure to play hardball in the 2010 offseason for Camby and there is no chance theyd trade him away for essentially nothing. Especially when the Clippers arent in the Luxury tax territory so trading a bunch of expiring guys (with better contracts) for a big expiring isnt going to be appealing to them.

As far as I can tell, Kaman is the one who is available and if you believe DB.com, the Mavs arent interested in an overpaid underperformer.

I think people still have the mentality that the Clippers are still the cheapest team in the NBA, but at least this year, they are going to put some good players around Griffin and give winning a shot. I think paying Rasual Butler is just one small piece of evidence for that hypothesis.

And for what its worth, if Griffin is any good B-Diddy, Griffin and Camby with a couple of good shooters (Butler being one) could see some success and even a playoff berth, especially in this years WC where there are only 3-4 locks for the playoffs.

DevinHarriswillstart · 08-12-2009, 07:26 PM

It is very strange how honest Terry was about getting a defensive big man. He believes we are a piece or two away. Definitely making August more interesting.

EricaLubarsky · 08-12-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

It is very strange how honest Terry was about getting a defensive big man. He believes we are a piece or two away. Definitely making August more interesting.

He's saying what we have all been saying for years? We needed a few pieces and a decent center. Now we have every piece except the center. Its so obvious that the players dont even have to keep it hush. Everyone in the league knows we are a center short of being a really dangerous team and everyone knows we are hunting for that piece.

eyedentifyme · 08-12-2009, 07:55 PM

What about Brad Miller in Chicago? Is Chicago offering him up and does he have anything left in the tank at the center position?

EricaLubarsky · 08-12-2009, 08:09 PM

Lawl. Brad Miller+Defense.

Two words even Addled-man couldnt say of him back during his heyday. He's still one of the better centers and someone no one is talking about. He takes a lot of jumpers and can be soft inside, but he still beats Damp on lateral quickness, and he still puts up good eFG, PER and rebounding numbers. He's basically a 33 year old Kaman, but unlike Kaman he comes off the books this offseason and he has a lot of playoff experience.

He'd be a decent piece here, but again he's an expiring contract so it would probably take something more than just more expirings to get him here. Plus he earns 12.3million this year.

BTW the Bulls sucked, but of the players that played significant minutes (19+mpg) the leaders in +/- were
1) Brad Miller
2) Tim Thomas
3) Kirk Hinrich

badfish22 · 08-12-2009, 08:19 PM

Was it ever decided if getting Blatche was realistic.
Seems like a good defensive player

dude1394 · 08-12-2009, 08:43 PM

So why wasn't hollins the guy who could cover 7 feet?

Windmill360 · 08-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So why wasn't hollins the guy who could cover 7 feet?

see Denver series.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 08-12-2009, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Rashad McCants: going to meet wit denver tomorrow in denver. lets know it will go good. Ive always liked denver. Twitter.com

Guess he's moved on to another team to "tweet" about.

badfish22 · 08-12-2009, 11:27 PM

He would fit in well there

CadBane · 08-12-2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Lawl. Brad Miller+Defense.

Two words even Addled-man couldnt say of him back during his heyday. He's still one of the better centers and someone no one is talking about. He takes a lot of jumpers and can be soft inside, but he still beats Damp on lateral quickness, and he still puts up good eFG, PER and rebounding numbers. He's basically a 33 year old Kaman, but unlike Kaman he comes off the books this offseason and he has a lot of playoff experience.

He'd be a decent piece here, but again he's an expiring contract so it would probably take something more than just more expirings to get him here. Plus he earns 12.3million this year.

BTW the Bulls sucked, but of the players that played significant minutes (19+mpg) the leaders in +/- were
1) Brad Miller
2) Tim Thomas
3) Kirk Hinrich

Kaman and Miller aren't even remotely similar outside of race.

Kaman has a great post-game. Miller has never had a post-game. Miller is a great passer, Kaman is a bad passer. Miller has a great mid-range J and range. Kaman has limited range. Kaman can offensive rebound, Miller can't. Kaman is a solid defender and good shot blocker. Miller is the antithesis of both.

I don't see Kaman magically warping to the opposite of what he is at 33.

EricaLubarsky · 08-13-2009, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Kaman and Miller aren't even remotely similar outside of race.

Kaman has a great post-game. Miller has never had a post-game. Miller is a great passer, Kaman is a bad passer. Miller has a great mid-range J and range. Kaman has limited range. Kaman can offensive rebound, Miller can't. Kaman is a solid defender and good shot blocker. Miller is the antithesis of both.

I don't see Kaman magically warping to the opposite of what he is at 33.

The numbers dont really bear you out on many of those points or maybe its just hyperbole on your part?

Miller has a little more Okur/Divacs in him, and Kaman is a little more traditional but both post.

Miller kept his opposing center to 13.4PER. Kaman allowed 20.9. Miller had a net PER of +7.4. Kaman had a net PER of -6.3. Net PER being a stat that measures personal performance better than any other stat (although its imperfect, most of its imperfections lie in a players overall impact on the team which PER doesnt necessarily measure).

Miller has and frequently still posts-- his post moves are much more in the vein of Dirk though as his post moves often involve a pivot as his offense is mostly face-the-basket. He plays mostly in the low post where he posts up for short jumpers and outside passing.

While Kaman shoots 64% of his shots "inside" according to 82games.com, 82games.com rules out jumpers (even jumpers in the paint) when measuring post play. That evens out the two players inside/outside numbers at least a little although it does favor Kaman in that regard.

Further, Brad Miller's offensive rebounding numbers surpass those of Kaman. Miller grabbed 9.2% of all possible offensive boards, while Kaman grabbed only 8.4%. Further, Miller averaged 14.3rebounds per 48. Kaman only 12.9.

The only statistic that supports your points layed out above (other than inside/outside game which slightly favors Kaman) is blocked shots. Miller is a terrible shot blocker while Kaman is a pretty good one.

So lets go over the points

Kaman is better at Miller at defense-- FALSE. Miller's Net PER and Opponent PERs are both superior. As for Defensive +/- stats (to show team defense efficiency), I dont think there are any good numbers to compare since Kaman was totally dwarfed by Camby who is a defensive juggernaut.

Kaman get O Rebs and Miller does not-- FALSE. Miller's Offensive rebounding is superior as a percentage of available (which corrects for differing styles of play and different playbooks.) and in every statistical way compares favorably to Kamans which is a far shot from quote "miller can't {get offensive rebounds}"

Miller is a better passer-- TRUE. Millers passing rating is 7.2 to Kamans 0.5. Miller produced 5.5assists per 48 with a A/TO ratio of an astounding 3.7. Kaman averages 2.4 on a disturbing 1.7 A/TO ratio.

Another interesting stat is the 82games.com invention of "'hands' rating". Miller scores a stellar 16.5 (a stat that calculates all variety of turnovers) while Kamans was only 3.8 because of a lot of offensive fouls, bad passes and getting stripped while handling the ball. For reference, Erick "stoney hands" Dampier scored above Kaman at 5.2

I dont think either Miller or Kaman is a great answer especially for their 8 digit salaries but I wanted to correct a few misconceptions. Plus I think it might be nice to have a seven footer that can not only pass from the post, but can also receive passes as well as almost any center in the league. In that respect Miller is the better player.

CadBane · 08-13-2009, 02:05 AM

I like Brad Miller a lot, my point wasn't that I don't want him here.

The stats I just saw show Kaman's "Inside %" at 64 to Miller's 46 last year. If you think Miller posts up even a remotely as often or as effectively as Kaman, I don't know what to tell you.

And considering you agree that Miller is the superior passer, and Kaman the superior shot blocker, I don't see how you can really compare their games all that much. Kaman has the ability to be the superior rebounder as well, given he averaged 13 just year before last. Miller has only averaged 10 once.

sefant77 · 08-13-2009, 09:54 AM

Well, anyway Miller isnt available. Bulls need him badly if they dont get another trade for a big done and he is an expiring anyway. Bulls dont wanna save a few bucks staying just with Noah at 5 to make a PO run...

Kaman/Camby again, they just add 4 mio with Butler. Dont see them trading Camby just to save 4 mio. Then Kaman goes down and they are stuck just with Jordan. Or they trade Kaman and Camby goes down again...

Btw im thinking the huge Dustchip/Bosh possibility makes our FO not going after these 50/5 40/4 guys like Kaman and Okafor...

PS: ihateaugustihateaugustihateaugustihateaugust

destroy ALL · 08-13-2009, 09:57 AM

AI anyone?

fluid.forty.one · 08-13-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

He's saying what we have all been saying for years? We needed a few pieces and a decent center. Now we have every piece except the center. Its so obvious that the players dont even have to keep it hush. Everyone in the league knows we are a center short of being a really dangerous team and everyone knows we are hunting for that piece.

It's still odd to hear a team be so vocally self aware..

sefant77 · 08-13-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by destroy ALL

AI anyone?

Brrrrrr.

But i take him for the reminder of the MLE with the words "You come off the bench and probably dont play more than 20min and u probably arent at the end of the 4th on the court". If he still accept the offer i take him.

If he start to piss off the locker room or play like a stupid ballhog i show him the door and write off the 1,4mio...

But that wont happen. He will go either to europe for more money and getting the superstar treatment he is looking for or get a one year contract at Knicks etc to sell some tickets.

SMC0007 · 08-13-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Camby is fragile but he's a better center and a better center for that team than Kaman, especially playing along side Blake Griffin. Theres no reason to believe theyd rather trade Camby over Kaman, unless Camby says that he'll leave at the end of the season.

If the Clips smell success, they'll be sure to play hardball in the 2010 offseason for Camby and there is no chance theyd trade him away for essentially nothing. Especially when the Clippers arent in the Luxury tax territory so trading a bunch of expiring guys (with better contracts) for a big expiring isnt going to be appealing to them.

As far as I can tell, Kaman is the one who is available and if you believe DB.com, the Mavs arent interested in an overpaid underperformer.

I think people still have the mentality that the Clippers are still the cheapest team in the NBA, but at least this year, they are going to put some good players around Griffin and give winning a shot. I think paying Rasual Butler is just one small piece of evidence for that hypothesis.

And for what its worth, if Griffin is any good B-Diddy, Griffin and Camby with a couple of good shooters (Butler being one) could see some success and even a playoff berth, especially in this years WC where there are only 3-4 locks for the playoffs.

Griffin IS good.. Mark that down! He is an f-ing stud!

EricaLubarsky · 08-13-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

I like Brad Miller a lot, my point wasn't that I don't want him here.

I dont doubt that was your point but many of your statements go along with league thinking, but go directly against the facts.
At least last year,

Miller was the superior man-defender

Miller was the superior offensive rebounder

Miller's overall rebound rating of 27.8 was nearly identical to Kaman's 28.0 last year

Kaman may have "potential" to be a much better rebounder-- His numbers two seasons ago were very impressive (35.4), but the enormous drop off in production just smells to me of underperformance and watching him play with Dirk, Im just not sure he'd find new life here and I think the front office agrees that he's just not the option.

Miller may not be the best option either, but it looks like the Mavs are looking for a one year guy and Miller may be the answer they are looking for and Id be glad to see a seasoned vet like Miller here especially with how well he not only catches the ball, but also passes it back out. With Damp, an entry pass was a dangerous risk and when he actually received and controlled the pass, you'd just hope he could dunk it or get fouled and make at least one FT.

Anyway, rebounding rating for the last few years
Dampier 36.5 (w/ GSW)->31.7-> 35.8->32.1->32.3
Kaman 27.5->29.6->35.4->28.0

destroy ALL · 08-13-2009, 11:33 AM

Clippers just got Rasual Butler, what does that mean?

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archiv..._from_hornets/

EricaLubarsky · 08-13-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by destroy ALL

AI anyone?

If Iguodala was available I'd be all over that.

Unless you mean Iverson, then I'd have to choke back some laughter. Iverson is a one man team, and that team is getting old and slow. He's a decent match for a losing team without any stars that just want to win 30-45% of their games, but he's a horrible fit here. He demands the ball to much to be effective and he doesnt contribute nearly as much as he used to. He's like Stackhouse with a little more tread on the tires, but at least Stackhouse was fairly effective at playing off the ball. Iverson is only effective when he has the ball in his hands.

EricaLubarsky · 08-13-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by destroy ALL

Clippers just got Rasual Butler, what does that mean?

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archiv..._from_hornets/

that you are 35 posts too late?

I think we have had a pretty decent discussion of what it means in the mean time in this thread and the NBA sections offseason thread.

eyedentifyme · 08-13-2009, 05:58 PM

Did anyone else hear on the radio about the Mavericks bringing back Calvin Booth? I don't know if that's legit or not.

DirkFTW · 08-13-2009, 05:59 PM

KVB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh wait...

Underdog · 08-13-2009, 07:27 PM

.

CadBane · 08-13-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I dont doubt that was your point but many of your statements go along with league thinking, but go directly against the facts.
At least last year,

Miller was the superior man-defender

Miller was the superior offensive rebounder

Miller's overall rebound rating of 27.8 was nearly identical to Kaman's 28.0 last year

Kaman may have "potential" to be a much better rebounder-- His numbers two seasons ago were very impressive (35.4), but the enormous drop off in production just smells to me of underperformance and watching him play with Dirk, Im just not sure he'd find new life here and I think the front office agrees that he's just not the option.

Miller may not be the best option either, but it looks like the Mavs are looking for a one year guy and Miller may be the answer they are looking for and Id be glad to see a seasoned vet like Miller here especially with how well he not only catches the ball, but also passes it back out. With Damp, an entry pass was a dangerous risk and when he actually received and controlled the pass, you'd just hope he could dunk it or get fouled and make at least one FT.

Anyway, rebounding rating for the last few years
Dampier 36.5 (w/ GSW)->31.7-> 35.8->32.1->32.3
Kaman 27.5->29.6->35.4->28.0

Kaman was hurt and playing hurt almost all of last year on a dysfunctional Clippers team. You have to take that into consideration. I see his season before last (if healthy) as closer to his ability.

SeriousSummer · 08-13-2009, 10:45 PM

After Sept. 9, you could do something like this:

Dallas--sends
Buckner
Humphreys
Carroll

Dallas--receives
Miller

Chicago--sends
Miller & No. 1 pick (to Utah)

Chicago--receives
Boozer

Utah--sends
Boozer

Utah--receives
Buckner
Humphreys
Carroll
No. 1 from Chicago

Dallas uses the Buckshot and some guys to make the numbers work for Miller. Chicago gets Boozer. Utah gets some cap relief, a number 1, and a couple of sketchy players. You can play with when and with what protection the No. 1 goes, but Chicago is a play off team, even without Boozer, so the draft choice is mediocre.

SeriousSummer · 08-13-2009, 11:03 PM

After Sept. 9, you could also do Gooden/Buckner/Williams for Kaman. The Clippers could cut Buckner and save a bunch of money, and then later cut Gooden, if they decided their young players were doing well enough, and save a bunch more. Wiliams is an expiring deal, while Kaman has two years left.

sefant77 · 08-13-2009, 11:06 PM

So the Jazz trade Boozer for a pick #16-22 (u can easily buy them these years) and the pleasure to pay Carroll 16mio over the next years.

They gonna laugh pretty hard about this...

Mavsfan4ever · 08-13-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

After Sept. 9, you could also do Gooden/Buckner/Williams for Kaman. The Clippers could cut Buckner and save a bunch of money, and then later cut Gooden, if they decided their young players were doing well enough, and save a bunch more. Wiliams is an expiring deal, while Kaman has two years left.

I dont think Gooden can be traded before Dec 15th or that is what I've heard.

sefant77 · 08-13-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

I dont think Gooden can be traded before Dec 15th or that is what I've heard.

Thats right, same with Tim Thomas.

Flacolaco · 08-14-2009, 12:05 AM

Every once in a while, I click on this thread to verify that you're all still having the same conversations we had weeks and weeks ago.

I'm happy to report that yes, you are.

Thomas86 · 08-14-2009, 12:31 AM

I think Samuel Dalembert might be the guy that the Mavs go after, he's long, athletic and a good shot blocker, I don't think it would take much to get Samuel since he's been on the trading block since the middle to last season, I think all it would take is Buckner, Williams and Carroll and maybe Humphries, I don't get all this Chris Kamen love I mean I haven't seen anything about the Mavs being interested him...I mean the Clips where just trying to hand Kamen to the Mavs with Davis but the Mavs still said no.

EricaLubarsky · 08-14-2009, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

I dont think Gooden can be traded before Dec 15th or that is what I've heard.

Quote:

a player cannot be traded until three months after signing a contract or December 15th of that season

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q67

EricaLubarsky · 08-14-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Every once in a while, I click on this thread to verify that you're all still having the same conversations we had weeks and weeks ago.

I'm happy to report that yes, you are.

You probably don't appreciate the beauty that is the movie Groundhogs Day either?

eyedentifyme · 08-14-2009, 01:11 AM

Do you guys think the Mavericks are playing their cards close to the chest by saying they are not interested in Samuel Dalembert, but that's the deal that they do have in place on Sept. 9 with the Philadelphia 76ers?

sefant77 · 08-14-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Every once in a while, I click on this thread to verify that you're all still having the same conversations we had weeks and weeks ago.

I'm happy to report that yes, you are.

We dont have conversations, we are just killing the august.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 08-14-2009, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas86

I think Samuel Dalembert might be the guy that the Mavs go after, he's long, athletic and a good shot blocker, I don't think it would take much to get Samuel since he's been on the trading block since the middle to last season, I think all it would take is Buckner, Williams and Carroll and maybe Humphries, I don't get all this Chris Kamen love I mean I haven't seen anything about the Mavs being interested him...I mean the Clips where just trying to hand Kamen to the Mavs with Davis but the Mavs still said no.

They weren't quite trying to "hand over" Kaman and Davis, they wanted Jason Kidd. Which I'd say 50/50 on this board were for/against that trade, but the F.O. wanted no part of. They're high on Kidd, IMO mostly because they're stubborn and don't want to admit they messed up by trading Harris for him at the current stage of his career.