Police shootings, mass shootings, terrorism, and humanity's descent into madness

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Male30Dan

Do you really want to go down this road? Because it comes with a lot of reading I’m happy to share with you, documentaries, movies and, in general, homework. It will still ultimately come down to a decision you will have to make after reading, watching and studying (and yes, a lot of that reading will certainly point to the Bible, it’s many manuscripts, archeological finds proving the Bible does correspond to historical reality, consistency and coherence despite many different authors over many centuries, etc). I wish there was (would’ve made it easier for me too), but there’s no AHA moment. There will always be a leap of faith involved that will need to be made by you..

Yes please! Im a science guy, so i really love facts, you know? Cant wait to read some good explanation why the Big Bang Theory is bullshit and "god" created everything snipping his hands for seven days.

Would also love to read the facts about Moses recieving the 10 commandments. In this story it always annoyed me that he claimed it but was alone on that hill. But maybe i missed it and he had his GoPro with him and videotaped it and there is proof. Ah and virgin Maria is also a big one, cant wait for the facts how she received a child without....u know...

At the end of the day, if all you plan on doing here is ignoring everything I say because your mind is already made up no matter what information I provide, I’ll just offer a retort as eloquently as you did by simply saying “We’ll agree to disagree.” .

Na sorry, thats too easy. You told its a FACT that god exists. So now please deliver them.

I simply don’t have the faith it takes to NOT believe in a single maker. There’s far, far too much happenstance involved with what it would’ve taken to have all of us come totally into existence by some explosion, frolicking as an amoeba for millions of years before eventually becoming a monkey only to then turn into a man (somehow still living alongside, wait for it, MONKEYS). Again, but I digress....

Yeah because "someone" creating the world in seven days, cutting a rip out and creating a female person out of it, receiving a child without human intercourse etc etc etc etc...that makes so much more sense

As for your stance that no one has the right to force beliefs onto someone else, you are absolutely right. Despite this country’s early foundations being built around the belief in God.

Taking land from native people and kill them all in the name of god...yes, you are right. I mean im german so i know the history of the church pretty well and how the church was until the late 1800s pretty much involved in every conflict, war etc. In europe, during the crusades etc. Was just lovely stuff happening over almost 2000 years in the name and "believes" of "god"
And then this lovely stuff of ten thousands of child abuse scandals with a systematic cover up, lovely.

Or that lovely missionar going to the Sentinal Islands. People minding their own business for thousands of year, never tried to reach out, never tried to attack or hurt anyone outside of their island...but yet this guy and his organisation thought they have the RIGHT to force their believes onto this people. Knowing they would endanger the entire tribe getting wiped out by an disease they cant handle. Ah remember that interview with Mary Ho from All Nations after the death of this guy? She sais they sent him and that the travel ban was lifted and it was legal for him to go there. They sent him on a tourist visa there because legally he had to apply for a missionars visa that he would never ever had gotten claiming he wanna go to the Sentinal. So this lovely christian woman just lied coldblooded on purpose to millions of viewers. Thats the spirit!

He gives you all the tools, methods to know him (thereby HAVING proof by EXPERIENCING Him, which IS the proof but I wasn’t even going to type that above because, well, how do you experience that if you refuse to accept Him?).

Sorry, thats not proof of anything

That said, I’m not going to have an argument about it on a Mavericks forum. I’ve said my peace on the matter and truly hope it’s helped in some way, but if not, I accept that and will leave it to God to do the rest. I pray you’ll reconsider though.

If you refuse to argue after stating that you have facts/proof for your claims, then dont start this whole crap in the beginning. Thats just lame.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Yes please! Im a science guy, so i really love facts, you know? Cant wait to read some good explanation why the Big Bang Theory is bullshit and "god" created everything snipping his hands for seven days.

Would also love to read the facts about Moses recieving the 10 commandments. In this story it always annoyed me that he claimed it but was alone on that hill. But maybe i missed it and he had his GoPro with him and videotaped it and there is proof. Ah and virgin Maria is also a big one, cant wait for the facts how she received a child without....u know...

Na sorry, thats too easy. You told its a FACT that god exists. So now please deliver them.

Yeah because "someone" creating the world in seven days, cutting a rip out and creating a female person out of it, receiving a child without human intercourse etc etc etc etc...that makes so much more sense

Taking land from native people and kill them all in the name of god...yes, you are right. I mean im german so i know the history of the church pretty well and how the church was until the late 1800s pretty much involved in every conflict, war etc. In europe, during the crusades etc. Was just lovely stuff happening over almost 2000 years in the name and "believes" of "god"
And then this lovely stuff of ten thousands of child abuse scandals with a systematic cover up, lovely.

Or that lovely missionar going to the Sentinal Islands. People minding is own business for thousands of year, never tried to reach out, never tried to attack or hurt anyone outside of their island...but yet this guy and his organisation thought they have the RIGHT to force their believes onto this people. Knowing they would endanger the entire tribe getting wiped out by an disease they cant handle. Ah remember that interview with Mary Ho from All Nations after the death of this guy? She sais they sent him and that the travel ban was lifted and it was legal for him to go there. They sent him on a tourist visa there because legally he had to apply for a missionars visa that he would never ever had gotten claiming he wanna go to the Sentinal. So this lovely christian woman just lied coldblooded on purpose to millions of viewers. Thats the spirit!


Sorry, thats not proof of anything

If you refuse to argue after stating that you have facts/proof for your claims, then dont start this whole crap in the beginning. Thats just lame.

There is no doubt that discussing God and faith is one of the most difficult things to do between someone that truly believes and someone that does not while at the same time making jokes, sneers, and sarcasm. There really is nothing that Male30Dan can say or do that will change your mind if you choose not to even consider what he says or does. If I come to you with open hands and a bible while you come to me swinging a baseball bat, I'm going to get beat up and it has nothing do with me the bible being true or false.

Sefant77 you, like most people on this board, are a smart guy. It's why I've been lurking and posting here for over 10 years. If you say you are "a science guy, (and) really love facts", I would honestly say to just take time and think about what you believe and ask why, while being ready for answers that may not align with what you originally thought. And don't go through the process with a baseball bat, but instead do it with a cup of coffee and maybe another person that is in the same mindset.

This is a good book to start at and get your mind going down the investigation road and is written by a journalist that was hard core atheist until his wife started believing:
The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel

I'm not stupid and think that reading that book will convert you, but it's a quick read and is a jumping off point for questions that have been asked above.

As a rebuttal to some of the comments:

Big Bang Theory - I actually this one lines up with God pretty well. Where exactly did all of this matter in the Big Bang come from? It just appeared in the blink of an eye, exploded on the scene and started cooling off? For a long time, it was theorized that the Big Bang happened for a source, matter blew apart and then it would start contracting just to repeat again. Well, it's been recently that the universe is actually speeding up blowing apart rather than slowing down. This doesn't really line up too well with the Big Bang.

Creating the world in seven (literal) days - This is a tough for even the hard core bible scholars. They agree/disagree on whether this is a literal seven days or a general timeline. Before you start saying "well what's true and not true?", one of the first things you get from the bible is that Jesus spoke in parables in order to get his point across to the people. So not everything in the bible is 100% literal. Again, if you truly want answers, you have to find them as Male30Dan said.

The Virgin Mary - I really like this one actually. This is probably the most easiest to defend in this time when artificial insemination happens every day. We believe in insemination science but we rule out that a creator of the universe couldn't do it.

Crusades - Believe it or not, bad people do bad things while using good things. This happens all the time. There is truth in the saying, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The fact is that all men (and women) sin and fall short. When the more corrupt get into positions of authority, even worse things happen.

For people like you, and I'm in your boat of 'I like facts', this is a difficult road. It would be amazing if you could come to a faith in God and Jesus with just a couple of forum posts. I would make Billy Graham look like nothing. So I'm taking you at your word and not assuming you to be sarcastic, start with basic or fundamental questions and look for an answer that you believe. The worst that could happen is that it just reinforces your own faith which is already athiestic. But looking an answer that doesn't align with your means honestly talking with people that don't believe like you.

Did Jesus really exist? Look at the corroborating evidence that he actually existed. That he was gaining followers, was persecuted, and was crucified or killed.

What proof is there that he rose from the dead? Why did the women initially see it? The women part is important.

If Jesus is God, why didn't he just *poof* everyone into submission and make things perfect? This one leads into why does God allow bad things to happen like a car wreck, accidental shooting, or even mass shooting.

Is the bible accurate? It was written by over 40 authors and more than 1,000 years. People think the bible is a single book but it's not. If it's written by 40 authors, where is it contradicting itself? How does it hold up against itself?

What is this holy trinity stuff? Father, Son, Spirit? That's a good one and will have to come later when you have started down the belief road because it'll blow your mind. It still blows mine.

Did God create the universe or did it pop into existence? It's really interesting to see verses in the bible that were later actually proved by science hundreds and hundreds of years later. It takes investigation if you truly want answers.

Let's say that there is a creator of the universe, what does that mean for him and me personally? This is another one that is really deep and will require a basic level of belief and faith to step into.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Yes please! Im a science guy, so i really love facts, you know? Cant wait to read some good explanation why the Big Bang Theory is bullshit and "god" created everything snipping his hands for seven days.

Would also love to read the facts about Moses recieving the 10 commandments. In this story it always annoyed me that he claimed it but was alone on that hill. But maybe i missed it and he had his GoPro with him and videotaped it and there is proof. Ah and virgin Maria is also a big one, cant wait for the facts how she received a child without....u know...



Na sorry, thats too easy. You told its a FACT that god exists. So now please deliver them.



Yeah because "someone" creating the world in seven days, cutting a rip out and creating a female person out of it, receiving a child without human intercourse etc etc etc etc...that makes so much more sense



Taking land from native people and kill them all in the name of god...yes, you are right. I mean im german so i know the history of the church pretty well and how the church was until the late 1800s pretty much involved in every conflict, war etc. In europe, during the crusades etc. Was just lovely stuff happening over almost 2000 years in the name and "believes" of "god"
And then this lovely stuff of ten thousands of child abuse scandals with a systematic cover up, lovely.

Or that lovely missionar going to the Sentinal Islands. People minding their own business for thousands of year, never tried to reach out, never tried to attack or hurt anyone outside of their island...but yet this guy and his organisation thought they have the RIGHT to force their believes onto this people. Knowing they would endanger the entire tribe getting wiped out by an disease they cant handle. Ah remember that interview with Mary Ho from All Nations after the death of this guy? She sais they sent him and that the travel ban was lifted and it was legal for him to go there. They sent him on a tourist visa there because legally he had to apply for a missionars visa that he would never ever had gotten claiming he wanna go to the Sentinal. So this lovely christian woman just lied coldblooded on purpose to millions of viewers. Thats the spirit!



Sorry, thats not proof of anything




If you refuse to argue after stating that you have facts/proof for your claims, then dont start this whole crap in the beginning. Thats just lame.

Sorry man, but like I said, I'm done. I'm not going to entertain this really rude thing you've started. Enjoy your life, but one day your knee will bow and, if you haven't changed your stance here, you certainly won't enjoy what comes after. Not something I want for you (or anyone that thinks like you do), but again, I'm not going to have some rebuttal with someone that has absolutely no interest to do anything but flame a Christian. Good luck and, again, God Bless!

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Male30Dan

Sorry man, but like I said, I'm done. I'm not going to entertain this really rude thing you've started. Enjoy your life, but one day your knee will bow and, if you haven't changed your stance here, you certainly won't enjoy what comes after. Not something I want for you (or anyone that thinks like you do), but again, I'm not going to have some rebuttal with someone that has absolutely no interest to do anything but flame a Christian. Good luck and, again, God Bless!

My only thing is it's pretty hypocritical to me to say "I won't have a rebuttal with someone who has no interest in anything but flaming a Christian" but Christian's are always saying things like "if you haven't changed your stance here you certainly won't enjoy what comes after". You can say you don't wish it on someone all you want but it comes off as a backhanded statement where you are saying something to the effect of "I pity you that you will be judged harshly since you don't believe like I do". As someone who comes from a very devout Lutheran family(I haven't been religious since I was a teen) I can say it's absurd to me that people of faith who imply a burning hell of sorts for not believing in a book written by man and translated and interpreted so many times over is to be believed "or else". In the example a few posts up people can't even agree on the time frame of 7 days and it's said the book is to be interpreted in some areas and not taken literal.

The fact is the biggest problem with Christianity is the bible itself is loaded with an absurd amount of contradictions or inconsistencies. Anyone who has actually read it and taken notes knows that it's a ridiculous amount. I haven't read the whole thing but I read a whole lot for my Confirmation when I was young. And depending on who you talk to those contradictions are explained away from human error or not to be taken literally, or embellishment, or sensationalizing, or some such excuse. It's written nobody has seen God face to face, and it's also written I have seen God's face. That's explained away as an interpretation and being a bit sensational with a vision of sorts or the idea of God itself. It's written to never harm innocents. Then it's written several times actions condoning hurting and killing innocents. It's written an eye for an eye so to speak and then also written to be the better person and forgive. Divorce is fine, and then it's apparently also not and tantamount to adultery. It's not good to steal but also you can take the livestock and belongings of the enemies. I mean you can list probably hundreds of inconsistencies. Those are just some off the top of my head. So when people ask questions it's understandable.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

My only thing is it's pretty hypocritical to me to say "I won't have a rebuttal with someone who has no interest in anything but flaming a Christian" but Christian's are always saying things like "if you haven't changed your stance here you certainly won't enjoy what comes after". You can say you don't wish it on someone all you want but it comes off as a backhanded statement where you are saying something to the effect of "I pity you that you will be judged harshly since you don't believe like I do". As someone who comes from a very devout Lutheran family(I haven't been religious since I was a teen) I can say it's absurd to me that people of faith who imply a burning hell of sorts for not believing in a book written by man and translated and interpreted so many times over is to be believed "or else". In the example a few posts up people can't even agree on the time frame of 7 days and it's said the book is to be interpreted in some areas and not taken literal.

The fact is the biggest problem with Christianity is the bible itself is loaded with an absurd amount of contradictions or inconsistencies. Anyone who has actually read it and taken notes knows that it's a ridiculous amount. I haven't read the whole thing but I read a whole lot for my Confirmation when I was young. And depending on who you talk to those contradictions are explained away from human error or not to be taken literally, or embellishment, or sensationalizing, or some such excuse. It's written nobody has seen God face to face, and it's also written I have seen God's face. That's explained away as an interpretation and being a bit sensational with a vision of sorts or the idea of God itself. It's written to never harm innocents. Then it's written several times actions condoning hurting and killing innocents. It's written an eye for an eye so to speak and then also written to be the better person and forgive. Divorce is fine, and then it's apparently also not and tantamount to adultery. It's not good to steal but also you can take the livestock and belongings of the enemies. I mean you can list probably hundreds of inconsistencies. Those are just some off the top of my head. So when people ask questions it's understandable.

See my post above. Discussion is one thing. Responding to the posts in the way I did for the reasons I’ve already outlined is another.

I’m sorry you (or others) took what I said as backhanded, but it wasn’t intended to be backhanded. Of course that’s the issue with bringing forth the truth (edit - to avoid additional frustration, the truth as “I” know it). Someone is always offended (see my edit moments ago). I won’t apologize for my faith or for doing what God and my faith asks of me. I’m not at all sorry for that.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

My only thing is it's pretty hypocritical to me to say "I won't have a rebuttal with someone who has no interest in anything but flaming a Christian" but Christian's are always saying things like "if you haven't changed your stance here you certainly won't enjoy what comes after". You can say you don't wish it on someone all you want but it comes off as a backhanded statement where you are saying something to the effect of "I pity you that you will be judged harshly since you don't believe like I do". As someone who comes from a very devout Lutheran family(I haven't been religious since I was a teen) I can say it's absurd to me that people of faith who imply a burning hell of sorts for not believing in a book written by man and translated and interpreted so many times over is to be believed "or else". In the example a few posts up people can't even agree on the time frame of 7 days and it's said the book is to be interpreted in some areas and not taken literal.

The fact is the biggest problem with Christianity is the bible itself is loaded with an absurd amount of contradictions or inconsistencies. Anyone who has actually read it and taken notes knows that it's a ridiculous amount. I haven't read the whole thing but I read a whole lot for my Confirmation when I was young. And depending on who you talk to those contradictions are explained away from human error or not to be taken literally, or embellishment, or sensationalizing, or some such excuse. It's written nobody has seen God face to face, and it's also written I have seen God's face. That's explained away as an interpretation and being a bit sensational with a vision of sorts or the idea of God itself. It's written to never harm innocents. Then it's written several times actions condoning hurting and killing innocents. It's written an eye for an eye so to speak and then also written to be the better person and forgive. Divorce is fine, and then it's apparently also not and tantamount to adultery. It's not good to steal but also you can take the livestock and belongings of the enemies. I mean you can list probably hundreds of inconsistencies. Those are just some off the top of my head. So when people ask questions it's understandable.

I do agree with you to some extent on the hypocritical point. I don't like it when christians aren't able to defend their faith, but make no mistake about it, it's a difficult thing to come to and defend. In fact, accepting Christ and following that path almost guarantees you trouble in today's society. Well, I guess you could argue it was trouble in Jesus' time also. Anyway, I'd like to take up just one of your contradictions and bring up the christian viewpoint. Please don't think of this as an attack or arguing, but rather just something to think about. Feel free to respond with questions or comments and I will do my best to give an answer, but obviously I'm not a scholar and my knowledge is just personal study, seeking and listening.

Everywhere in the bible (including Jesus' own words) it says that divorce is never fine. I think you can agree that 99% of the time, divorce is a very painful process. The reason for this is because marriage is such a deep connection on all levels, that it is literally ripping apart much like surgery is for the body.

What is God's intent of marriage? The intent of a biblical marriage is to "leave his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." This is the view that God has of marriage, becoming one flesh, one person, one mind, one with each other's thoughts, hopes, and desires. That is the goal.

So when/why is it accepted? Jesus' own words are "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." In the verse before, he says "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard." Infidelity is something that is extremely difficult to overcome because the sexual union between a husband and wife is more than just physical. I can go into this in more detail, but won't at this time just to stay on topic.

Why did Moses say how to divorce? The reason for this is because at the time, divorce was seen even as a lesser thing than it is today. A man could walk out in the street and just declare that he is divorcing his wife and then be done with it. Also keep in mind, that wives in the day had very little rights. Moses' intent was to not allow a divorce to be simple and encourage the importance of marriage.

[Jack.Kerr]

MAVS GET PORZINGIS!

...maybe there is a god?

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

MAVS GET PORZINGIS!

...maybe there is a god?

Ha!