Cuban 1on1

[yahyes]

Meh. I was like 10 when that whole transition happened. Spotty memories. But I do remember when we almost signed the rapper Master P... I believe that was under the Perot years.

[Melonhead]

Contracts would be coming off the books this year, thus the core team has a chance to defend the title, and were in the same spot we're in now. Cap space does not attract stars, other stars do.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Contracts would be coming off the books this year, thus the core team has a chance to defend the title, and were in the same spot we're in now. Cap space does not attract stars, other stars do.

I'm pretty sure Cuban realizes that now. He made a grave error in thinking that teams would stop spending on players that weren't superstars, but plan powder now seems to be in the rearview mirror for the most part.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I'm pretty sure Cuban realizes that now. He made a grave error in thinking that teams would stop spending on players that weren't superstars, but plan powder now seems to be in the rearview mirror for the most part.

I don't think that was the error, though. After all, the whole thing kicked off with teams overspending on Dallas' non-superstar free agents.

[marc9211]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm don't think that was the error, though. After all, the whole thing kicked off with teams overspending on Dallas' non-superstar free agents.

Yes exactly its hard to keep everyone together when everyone is at there all time high in price because of there performance in the playoffs. Cuban just didn't think those players where worth some of the money teams where willing to pay them and went with cap space and the looming free agency while trying to play the CBA properly.

[fluid.forty.one]

This may not be a very popular opinion, but I think if you took the championship Mavs, kept them together for another year, and somehow put them back in the 2011 playoffs, I don't even think they win that year again. Peja, Kidd and Terry (at the least) wouldn't have contributed as much being a year older and you wouldn't have a team full of hungry vets and stars all chasing their first ring. That's not even taking into consideration that the 2012 Heat (and LeBron, specifically) figured things out.

Obviously anything would have been possible, but I still think we had a better shot at Deron and Dwight than we did at winning a championship with the same squad.

I also completely disagree with dude's assertion that the championship might somehow be tainted as a fluke because they didn't get a chance to defend. This wasn't some measly fight through the early 2000 leastern conference, the Mavs dominated virtually every relevant superstar and team on the way to the ship. People know that what happened was legit. Also, it's not like the coaches or the players (Kidd, JET, Dirk and I guess Marion) didn't already have playoff pedigree to back it up.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I don't think that was the error, though. After all, the whole thing kicked off with teams overspending on Dallas' non-superstar free agents.

Chandler at 14/15 a year could get traded at a moments notice. If you think a defensive poy center/championship level center at 14/15 a year is too much to pay I don't know what to say.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

This may not be a very popular opinion, but I think if you took the championship Mavs, kept them together for another year, and somehow put them back in the 2011 playoffs, I don't even think they win that year again. Peja, Kidd and Terry (at the least) wouldn't have contributed as much being a year older and you wouldn't have a team full of hungry vets and stars all chasing their first ring. That's not even taking into consideration that the 2012 Heat (and LeBron, specifically) figured things out.

Obviously anything would have been possible, but I still think we had a better shot at Deron and Dwight than we did at winning a championship with the same squad.

I also completely disagree with dude's assertion that the championship might somehow be tainted as a fluke because they didn't get a chance to defend. This wasn't some measly fight through the early 2000 leastern conference, the Mavs dominated virtually every relevant superstar and team on the way to the ship. People know that what happened was legit. Also, it's not like the coaches or the players (Kidd, JET, Dirk and I guess Marion) didn't already have playoff pedigree to back it up.

Saying they don't repeat is a very valid discussion to have. Saying we were better off with Mike James and Kaman vs keeping Chandler is beyond stupid.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by marc9211

Yes exactly its hard to keep everyone together when everyone is at there all time high in price because of there performance in the playoffs. Cuban just didn't think those players where worth some of the money teams where willing to pay them and went with cap space and the looming free agency while trying to play the CBA properly.

And we see how worthless Cuban's evaluations are.
If Chandler was 28 again and a free agent this summer he gets the same contract. Cuban was wrong and his signing of players to more than one year deals is an admission of that. Cuban won't come out and say it because he's too proud. If plan powder was the correct way to go about it he'd do it again.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

And we see how worthless Cuban's evaluations are.
If Chandler was 28 again and a free agent this summer he gets the same contract. Cuban was wrong and his signing of players to more than one year deals is an admission of that. Cuban won't come out and say it because he's too proud. If plan powder was the correct way to go about it he'd do it again.

Cuban did not consider the value of Chandler's contract in the open market. What might this summer's acquisitions be worth at the trade deadline or next summer? Assets can be more valuable than cap space.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Saying we were better off with Mike James and Kaman vs keeping Chandler is beyond stupid.

Who said that?

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Who said that?

The results of said plan. Or are we just basing opinions on pie in the sky scenarios? In that case I'll take Melo and Lebron paired with Dirk over Calderon and Ellis.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

The results of said plan. Or are we just basing opinions on pie in the sky scenarios? In that case I'll take Melo and Lebron paired with Dirk over Calderon and Ellis.

What? You're having a conversation that no one else is having.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by Underdog

What? You're having a conversation that no one else is having.

No. If you don't agree with re-signing Chandler then you are saying that you'd rather sign Kaman and Mike James. Those were the results of plan powder. Again we can deal in facts or are we back to debating pie in the sky scenarios? As I said in my last post if pie in the sky is it I take Lebron next year.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

If you don't agree with re-signing Chandler then you are saying that you'd rather sign Kaman and Mike James.

That's a logical fallacy.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

This may not be a very popular opinion, but I think if you took the championship Mavs, kept them together for another year, and somehow put them back in the 2011 playoffs, I don't even think they win that year again. Peja, Kidd and Terry (at the least) wouldn't have contributed as much being a year older and you wouldn't have a team full of hungry vets and stars all chasing their first ring. That's not even taking into consideration that the 2012 Heat (and LeBron, specifically) figured things out.

Obviously anything would have been possible, but I still think we had a better shot at Deron and Dwight than we did at winning a championship with the same squad.

I also completely disagree with dude's assertion that the championship might somehow be tainted as a fluke because they didn't get a chance to defend. This wasn't some measly fight through the early 2000 leastern conference, the Mavs dominated virtually every relevant superstar and team on the way to the ship. People know that what happened was legit. Also, it's not like the coaches or the players (Kidd, JET, Dirk and I guess Marion) didn't already have playoff pedigree to back it up.

No, they probably wouldn't be the favorites... They wouldn't have been the favorites in 2012. So? Obviously, there are no guarantees. No one is saying that..well, some are 100% convinced that Cuban and nellie made the right decision, and are unwilling to even consider the alternative. Those that feel as if Cuban made the wrong decision have the two years of wasted Dirk at least as evidence..

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I don't think that was the error, though. After all, the whole thing kicked off with teams overspending on Dallas' non-superstar free agents.

Well what you are really saying is that he was wrong right away? Since the new CBA was agreed upon, he didn't give a reasonably substantial multi-year contract to a mid-tier player until this offseason. I'm not arguing that we should have kept the championship team together btw. I'm just talking about Cuban's thought on teams not spending in the new CBA like they did in the old one.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

If you don't agree with re-signing Chandler then you are saying that you'd rather sign Kaman and Mike James.

Derp.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Well what you are really saying is that he was wrong right away? Since the new CBA was agreed upon, he didn't give a reasonably substantial multi-year contract to a mid-tier player until this offseason. I'm not arguing that we should have kept the championship team together btw. I'm just talking about Cuban's thought on teams not spending in the new CBA like they did in the old one.

No. I'm saying that I think that characterization of his/their expectations misses the mark in several respects: 1) I think the expectation for league-wide behavior was more about the way teams would manage against the tax line, 2) a lot of what he was focused on in his early comments on the then-new CBA was the question of how the Mavs would have to adjust their spending and approach to continue to be competitive, 3) to reiterate my original point, I just don't see how they could possibly be accused of complete ignorance with regard to the possibility that individual teams might continue to spend irresponsibly under the cap when the evidence to the contrary was all over the place in negotiations they were having with their own free agents right at the outset, and 4) their plan was never about the overpaid guys anyway. Their plan was about the guys who cannot be overpaid, i.e., the true max level players; even if they underestimated to some extent how stubbornly some teams (Charlotte) would persist in giving out unreasonable contracts, that's not really at the core of what went wrong.

[marc9211]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

No. If you don't agree with re-signing Chandler then you are saying that you'd rather sign Kaman and Mike James. Those were the results of plan powder. Again we can deal in facts or are we back to debating pie in the sky scenarios? As I said in my last post if pie in the sky is it I take Lebron next year.

Yea you must be talking to yourself I'm saying is that Cuban looked at the free agency and didn't think Chandler was worth it. Of course in hindsight we can say that he made one wrong decision but as usual your just taking it overboard for no reason.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think it cheapened the title because they did not have a chance to show what a great team it was.

It is now perceived as a one hit wonder that just got lucky.

"One hit wonder that just got lucky" is a really silly, snide way to put it. I do think it's fair to say that they were an old veteran team who overcame odds that were stacked against them. I think it's fair to that they faced a couple of teams that had more raw talent and won by having more brains and more heart. I also think it's fair to say that they were in the right place at the right time and took advantage of a lot of factors that were sometimes beyond their control and you could call luck (the Spurs losing to the Grizz in the first round, streaky shooters getting hot at the right time, Lebron repeatedly choking in the 4th quarter, the Lakers and the Heat collectively being overconfident and surprisingly soft...)

None of those things are a knock on that team. In fact I think it's an even greater testament to them. You say it "cheapens" the title. I say it makes it even more special. You've disagreed with me in the past when I called it a "miracle," but I think you misinterpret my meaning. When I say that, I don't mean that it was a fluke, or blind luck. I mean they overcame incredible odds. I mean they shocked the world and did something NOBODY expected them to do. You might even disagree with that, but make no mistake, those Mavs were HUGE underdogs against both the Lakers and the Heat. Honestly, I would even argue that the Thunder had a more talented roster. The amount of unlikely double-digit comebacks they had to pull off to win that title bears out what underdogs the Mavs were. "Miracle" is no insult. I think it's a tremendous compliment. I mean it in the same way that the 1980 US hockey team was a "miracle."

That being said, for all the same reasons, I never thought they had a snowball's chance in hell of repeating. It was a heroic, herculean accomplishment that I don't think they could have done again. Again, that's by no means a knock on the team, nor does it "cheapen" the title. I just don't think we were likely to get the same kind of amazing crunch time heroics out of Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, or JJ Barea, or the same kind of lock-down defense on the game's elite scorers from Shawn Marion. That's just what happens when you build a team full of guys in their 30's. EDIT: Let's also not forget that the competition in the West got considerably better in 2012. Beyond that, in spite of losing so many guys, the Mavs still rolled out a very respectable roster that year. Odom was the real killer. If the Mavs had gotten the player we all thought they were getting when they picked up Odom, they might have had a really good playoff run.

And I think we all know that we'd be having a very different conversation if we had succeeded in landing Deron Williams, which was a VERY real possibility. Honestly, who the hell could have predicted that Joe f*cking Johnson would have been the deciding factor for him? Dwight was far less likely than Deron, but still worth the risk IMO.

[LonghornDub]

Spot on, spiral. Repped.

[bobdole22]

It's not always championship or bust. The question should be: "What roster gives you the best chance?"

The answer was clearly resigning our people.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by bobdole22

It's not always championship or bust. The question should be: "What roster gives you the best chance?"

The answer was clearly resigning our people.

Clearly...

Except Peja retired, Barea got overpaid and Stevenson's production hit rock-bottom... You can make a case for Chandler, but everybody else took a step back.

And of course you have to ignore the fact that Dirk was out of shape after the lockout and injured the following season... Not to mention that Father Time caught up with Kidd and Terry in a big way... But, yeah, clearly we had the best chance to repeat if we brought back the same team. Clearly.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by bobdole22

It's not always championship or bust. The question should be: "What roster gives you the best chance?"

The answer was clearly resigning our people.

Technically they didn't resign. Their contracts were just up. But I agree. Letting them go get overpaid by other teams was clearly the right move.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by Underdog

But, yeah, clearly we had the best chance to repeat if we brought back the same team. Clearly.

2011 team still wins 50+ last year compared to missing the playoffs. Barea vs Mike James and Chandler vs Kaman. And you think that was better? You are a fool.

[DirkFTW]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

2011 team still wins 50+ last year compared to missing the playoffs. Barea vs Mike James and Chandler vs Kaman. And you think that was better? You are a fool.

I wish we had Tyson still, but guard play was atrocious last year. If the answer choices are JJB and Mike James, I suspect the question is not "what starting PG gives you the best chance to win the championship?"

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

2011 team still wins 50+ last year compared to missing the playoffs. Barea vs Mike James and Chandler vs Kaman. And you think that was better? You are a fool.

And you're a fool if you think the argument is as simple as "Barea vs. James" and "Chandler vs. Kaman" - the issue was always about cap space... It's more like "Ellis/Calderon vs. Chandler" when you start getting down to the dollars and cents.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

2011 team still wins 50+ last year compared to missing the playoffs. Barea vs Mike James and Chandler vs Kaman. And you think that was better? You are a fool.

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by Underdog

And you're a fool if you think the argument is as simple as "Barea vs. James" and "Chandler vs. Kaman" - the issue was always about cap space... It's more like "Ellis/Calderon vs. Chandler" when you start getting down to the dollars and cents.

Where does 2 years of the mavs best player ever being wasted fit into the equation?

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Clearly...

Except Peja retired, Barea got overpaid and Stevenson's production hit rock-bottom... You can make a case for Chandler, but everybody else took a step back.

And of course you have to ignore the fact that Dirk was out of shape after the lockout and injured the following season... Not to mention that Father Time caught up with Kidd and Terry in a big way... But, yeah, clearly we had the best chance to repeat if we brought back the same team. Clearly.

Exactly. Wish we could've kept Chandler. Beside that, whatever.

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Where does 2 years of the mavs best player ever being wasted fit into the equation?

Which year(s) again? The one where Dirk came back out of shape and had to miss games for a mini camp or the one in which an injury kept him off the court for nearly half the season?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Where does 2 years of the mavs best player ever being wasted fit into the equation?

You do love your logical fallacies, don't you? Can we also call the first 12 years of Dirk's career a waste too, since the Mavs didn't win a ring in any of those seasons?

Re-signing Tyson Chandler wouldn't have guaranteed ANYTHING in the last two years - especially when you consider the fact that Dirk was struggling with Finals fatigue and injuries over that time period... And to repeat myself; Peja retired, Kidd retired, Terry hit a wall and Stevenson sucks now. Were you banking on Barea to be our savior?

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by Underdog

You do love your logical fallacies, don't you? Can we also call the first 12 years of Dirk's career a waste too, since the Mavs didn't win a ring in any of those seasons?

Re-signing Tyson Chandler wouldn't have guaranteed ANYTHING in the last two years - especially when you consider the fact that Dirk was struggling with Finals fatigue and injuries over that time period... And to repeat myself; Peja retired, Kidd retired, Terry hit a wall and Stevenson sucks now. Were you banking on Barea to be our savior?

Nope. I was banking on the defensive poy/championship center/heart of the 2011 team guy that was the perfect compliment to our franchise player.

[oilfieldtrash]

I just thank God Cuban is smarter than you idiots. He backed off plan powder like it was the plague yet the fools here still defend it. No 1 year deals, firing/demotion of the gm, etc.. Could it be any clearer that it was the worst sports decision ever in Dallas sports history?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Nope. I was banking on the defensive poy/championship center/heart of the 2011 team guy that was the perfect compliment to our franchise player.

Our franchise player who was INJURED... You seem to have a very selective memory about the last two years. Did you even notice how much Kidd and Terry declined after the Finals? Those two hitting a wall was enough to keep us from repeating.

And you also have a very selective memory about our championship run - Tyson Chandler was fantastic, but it's not like he was putting up 20 PPG or something... He couldn't have made up for the decline in our other players.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Nope. I was banking on the defensive poy/championship center/heart of the 2011 team guy that was the perfect compliment to our franchise player.

I just thank God Cuban is smarter than you idiots. He backed off plan powder like it was the plague yet the fools here still defend it. No 1 year deals, firing/demotion of the gm, etc.. Could it be any clearer that it was the worst sports decision ever in Dallas sports history?

I'm just curious, how much better do you think we would have been the last two years with Chandler? Quantify it. How many games do you think the Mavs would have won, and how deep would they have gone in the playoffs?

Type out the hypothetical roster. Chandler, and the other guys that would likely be around Dirk and him.

[Kante]

I get a feeling, and i can be wrong and you can correct me, but is oilfieldtrash an idiot?

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by Kante

I get a feeling, and i can be wrong and you can correct me, but is oilfieldtrash an idiot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCXQnRBXoHg

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That being said, for all the same reasons, I never thought they had a snowball's chance in hell of repeating.

You make a very lucid argument, but the counterargument still comes down to this: The only evidence we have to go on is the evidence that everything you thought was right was wrong. Dead wrong. The team that you gave no chance to went and won the title. Doesn't that sort of render impotent all arguments along these lines? Shouldn't it be something like, "But, by my line of reasoning, they'd have never won it in the first place, but I guess they did, so what the hell do I know?"

I'm sorry, but I just can't be convinced by "Yes, I was wrong about lightning not striking on my head the first time, but don't you see that I'm even MORE likely to be right now?"

And yes, I get that certain things inevitably changed after the championship, in that way that you can't ever step in the same river twice. Yes, for some players--and let's all be candid, this begins and ends with Dirk--the mountain may have been already climbed. But that would never, ever, ever--I mean, like Taylor Swift ever--be a good argument against making your best effort to compete the next year. Or at least, it's not an argument you could make to your team and live to get away with it.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You make a very lucid argument, but the counterargument still comes down to this: The only evidence we have to go on is the evidence that everything you thought was right was wrong. Dead wrong. The team that you gave no chance to went and won the title. Doesn't that sort of render impotent all arguments along these lines? Shouldn't it be something like, "But, by my line of reasoning, they'd have never won it in the first place, but I guess they did, so what the hell do I know?"

I'm sorry, but I just can't be convinced by "Yes, I was wrong about lightning not striking on my head the first time, but don't you see that I'm even MORE likely to be right now?"

And yes, I get that certain things inevitably changed after the championship, in that way that you can't ever step in the same river twice. Yes, for some players--and let's all be candid, this begins and ends with Dirk--the mountain may have been already climbed. But that would never, ever, ever--I mean, like Taylor Swift ever--be a good argument against making your best effort to compete the next year. Or at least, it's not an argument you could make to your team and live to get away with it.

I'm just curious. Did YOU pick that team to win the title? I can't remember.