The Polish Hammer Bandwagon - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

darkwitzki · 06-05-2009, 07:44 PM

H: 7' 0"
W: 225 lbs
Bday: 02/18/1984
(25 Years Old)
Hometown: Lodz, Poland
Drafted: Rnd 2, Pick 27 in 2005 by Suns
Best Case: Chris Andersen
Worst Case: Cezary Trybanski

Marcin Gortat NBA Draft Scouting Report
June 26, 2005

Strengths
Marcin Gortat’s main value rests in the fact that he’s one of the most athletic and physically mature big men out of Europe. The Polish is a legit seven footer who enjoys excellent mobility. For a guy his size, it’s remarkable how he runs the floor. He has a nice vertical, with decent timing, and shows good reactivity and quickness in his movements. Perhaps the most uncommon thing about him, considering where he’s coming from, is that he’s a pretty strong guy. He isn’t huge, but he has quite a good frame and a nice body.

Therefore, he has the tools to become a really interesting defender. His mobility translates quite well into lateral defensive quickness, clearly with above average results among centers. He’s strong enough to be capable of holding on his position in the low post, while he has the athleticism and length to intimidate around the basket, as well as grab a good amount of rebounds.

On the offensive end, he’s usually searching for open looks to finish near the basket. He can also score on fast breaks plays and off of offensive rebounds. In the low post, with enough space and time, he can try some unorthodox back-to-the-basket movement, with mixed results.

Gortat seems to have a good attitude, displaying nice activity in his game, which is a pleasant characteristic in a big guy like him.

Weaknesses
Gortat’s offensive game screams raw at any level you look at it. He doesn’t display any single consistent scoring weapon. He has no jumper to speak of and he’s not a factor in the low post, lacking the footwork and skills to get the job done on a regular basis. He has no baby hook to help himself in the paint having opposition, and he barely uses his left hand. While he is quite an athletic player, he really has no way to show that on the offensive end beyond catching the ball in the post (if he can find his way to the right spot) and leaving his feet quickly to dunk it.

Watching him, it’s pretty obvious that the game doesn’t come easy to him. That’s why it’s rather difficult to picture him developing his offensive game to a good enough degree to become something more than a garbage man.

On defense, he has yet to fill his potential. He needs to improve his man to man defense, which is not just a matter of following one’s matchup, but also about being aggressive on him not letting him operate comfortably. He’s sometimes pushed around because of this certain lack of aggressiveness. His positioning on team defense could use some work too. He can also be very foul prone, being tricked easily into leaving his feet and being over eager to help his team out and leaving his man wide open for a rebound, easy basket or both.

His basketball IQ doesn’t look particularly good. It’s not that he looks lost on the court, but neither he seems too bright playing the game. His passing game is rather poor.

Competition
Gortat is a player with a shorter experience than usual for a guy of his age. He has only enjoyed regular playing time at decent level this season, averaging 5.2 points, 3.8 rebounds and 0.9 blocks for RheinEnergie Koln in the German League. In the ULEB Cup he improved to 8.4 points, 4.5 rebounds and 1.2 blocks.

Outlook
Gortat has declared for this draft and not withdrawn. He has no chance of hitting the first round, but he could have a shot at the second. He was in Chicago Pre-Draft Camp, but he failed to impress there. Considering his unpolished game and the limited intrigue that he brings on the table, it won’t be easy for him to make it in such a deep draft as this year’s. There is no doubt that another year in Europe would have really helped him and his draft stock before keeping his name in the draft, but it’s a little late to be talking about that now.

Comments
Gortat is the classic guy that only draws attention because of physical profile. The problem is that he’s really not a good basketball player at this moment, not at least to the point of being a serious NBA prospect at this point. Even if he’s in his twenties, he’s still young, has little experience and will have time to improve. But it’s just that he doesn’t look like one of those guys on the verge of a significant development. Nevertheless, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and some NBA team could think otherwise.

TheMaverick · 06-05-2009, 07:49 PM

If he's 225 pounds, JJB is 80 pounds.

CadBane · 06-05-2009, 07:57 PM

The Polish Hammer's nuts are 225 lbs. alone.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-05-2009, 11:29 PM

I like Gortat too, but c'mon people let's be realistic. The guy is really not much of an upgrade over Dampier. I'm not positive that he'd be an upgrade at all. Now if we end up trading Dampier for a high caliber wingman than absolutely, go after Gortat. Otherwise, I don't think he'd make much of a difference.

bobatundi · 06-06-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

If he's 225 pounds, JJB is 80 pounds.

ooh, ooh, I've got one:

If Gortat is 7', JJB is 5'8".

TheMaverick · 06-06-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I like Gortat too, but c'mon people let's be realistic. The guy is really not much of an upgrade over Dampier. I'm not positive that he'd be an upgrade at all. Now if we end up trading Dampier for a high caliber wingman than absolutely, go after Gortat. Otherwise, I don't think he'd make much of a difference.

Gortat + Dampier would be a good 1/2 punch at the C position IMHO.

mavs777 · 06-06-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I like Gortat too, but c'mon people let's be realistic. The guy is really not much of an upgrade over Dampier. I'm not positive that he'd be an upgrade at all. Now if we end up trading Dampier for a high caliber wingman than absolutely, go after Gortat. Otherwise, I don't think he'd make much of a difference.

WHAT?

He is a big upgrade mainly in low post 1 on 1 defense, Dampier is ok at helping and blocking shots, but he isn't very active 1 on 1, and if you saw how Nene abused him you would see Gortat is kind of player the team needs down low, he is athletic, a very good rebounder, and can defend the 4 and 5 position

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

WHAT?

He is a big upgrade mainly in low post 1 on 1 defense, Dampier is ok at helping and blocking shots, but he isn't very active 1 on 1, and if you saw how Nene abused him you would see Gortat is kind of player the team needs down low, he is athletic, a very good rebounder, and can defend the 4 and 5 position

You could not be more wrong. It's the exact opposite with Damp. His man-to-man defense is fantastic. His helpside defense is what's lacking.

Look, Gortat's a nice player, but he is not the difference between being a title contender and not being one.

mavs777 · 06-06-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You could not be more wrong. It's the exact opposite with Damp. His man-to-man defense is fantastic. His helpside defense is what's lacking.

Look, Gortat's a nice player, but he is not the difference between being a title contender and not being one.

So the denver series was all just a bad dream?

grndmstr_c · 06-06-2009, 05:08 PM

Gortat >>> Kobe

BGMaverick9 · 06-06-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You could not be more wrong. It's the exact opposite with Damp. His man-to-man defense is fantastic. His helpside defense is what's lacking.

Look, Gortat's a nice player, but he is not the difference between being a title contender and not being one.

I think he was on the right track though...Gortat isn't so "loafy" with his movements to where if he's facing a man like Nene, it's not such a beatdown. Nene could run right past Damp, it's a much better fight with Gortat.

I know I haven't said that Gortat is the missing piece to the championship. I just think it's a better route to go because Stack should be able to get you a pretty good wing player or 2 decent upgrades....he'll bring in what: up to maybe 9 mil in salary?

grndmstr_c · 06-06-2009, 06:14 PM

It's not about hoping or thinking that Gortat would be a significant upgrade to Damp. It's about being opportunistic in a situation that arguably sets up pretty well for Dallas from a number of angles, and hopefully having it pay off by getting a guy who can rebound, block shots, move well, and run the floor at the center position, and who, most importantly, can play his game effectively against big frontcourts and athletic frontcourts alike. The Mavs don't have anyone like that right now, it's a problem that needs to be addressed, and there very well may not be a better option available than Gortat once the cost of acquisition is taken into account. He wouldn't have to be the missing piece. If he could even just be Damp, but manage to do it against the Denvers of the league in addition to the San Antonio's, that'd be a step in the right direction.

sefant77 · 06-06-2009, 06:14 PM

Full MLE?

Hello Marcin Diop. Part of MLE? OK.

Still prefer a Kaman/Hollins-Combo.

BGMaverick9 · 06-06-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

It's not about hoping or thinking that Gortat would be a significant upgrade to Damp. It's about being opportunistic in a situation that arguably sets up pretty well for Dallas from a number of angles, and hopefully having it pay off by getting a guy who can rebound, block shots, move well, and run the floor at the center position, and who, most importantly, can play his game effectively against big frontcourts and athletic frontcourts alike. The Mavs don't have anyone like that right now, it's a problem that needs to be addressed, and there very well may not be a better option available than Gortat once the cost of acquisition is taken into account. He wouldn't have to be the missing piece. If he could even just be Damp, but manage to do it against the Denvers of the league in addition to the San Antonio's, that'd be a step in the right direction.

This...especially the bold part.

Thomas86 · 06-06-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Full MLE?

Hello Marcin Diop. Part of MLE? OK.

Still prefer a Kaman/Hollins-Combo.

Ok so you want injury prone Kamen and foul prone Hollins?...Marcin Gortat would be nice...only if it's for half the MLE.

darkwitzki · 06-06-2009, 10:24 PM

How much is MLE?

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

It's not about hoping or thinking that Gortat would be a significant upgrade to Damp. It's about being opportunistic in a situation that arguably sets up pretty well for Dallas from a number of angles, and hopefully having it pay off by getting a guy who can rebound, block shots, move well, and run the floor at the center position, and who, most importantly, can play his game effectively against big frontcourts and athletic frontcourts alike. The Mavs don't have anyone like that right now, it's a problem that needs to be addressed, and there very well may not be a better option available than Gortat once the cost of acquisition is taken into account. He wouldn't have to be the missing piece. If he could even just be Damp, but manage to do it against the Denvers of the league in addition to the San Antonio's, that'd be a step in the right direction.

I understand, but you yourself have said that Dampier is more than likely not going anywhere unless it's a clear cut win for Dallas. If Dampier isn't being traded, then I am of opinion that we're better off using the resources that it would cost to get Gortat on a swingman. If we trade Damp, then yes, Gortat is a no brainer. Otherwise I'd rather have another athletic scorer off the bench than having a Damp/Gortat combo.

I'm just saying as far as the MLE goes, I think there are better places to spend it. If there are no good wingmen available for the MLE, then sure, Gortat would be nice.

Edit: I also should say that I think people really are making too much of the "athletic big man" thing. I know Nene lit us up, but frankly I think there are a lot fewer players like that than people seem to realize. Over the course of the season, I think we take a hell of a lot more damage from high caliber guards than we do from the Nene's of the league. That's all I'm saying here. I think a scoring wingman off the bench is a higher priority than the "athletic big man."

BGMaverick9 · 06-06-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I understand, but you yourself have said that Dampier is more than likely not going anywhere unless it's a clear cut win for Dallas. If Dampier isn't being traded, then I am of opinion that we're better off using the resources that it would cost to get Gortat on a swingman. If we trade Damp, then yes, Gortat is a no brainer. Otherwise I'd rather have another athletic scorer off the bench than having a Damp/Gortat combo.

I'm just saying as far as the MLE goes, I think there are better places to spend it. If there are no good wingmen available for the MLE, then sure, Gortat would be nice.

Edit: I also should say that I think people really are making too much of the "athletic big man" thing. I know Nene lit us up, but frankly I think there are a lot fewer players like that than people seem to realize. Over the course of the season, I think we take a hell of a lot more damage from high caliber guards than we do from the Nene's of the league. That's all I'm saying here. I think a scoring wingman off the bench is a higher priority than the "athletic big man."

Stack SHOULD be able to get us a wing. So I think that part will take care of itself and then we can get bargain/steal players with the remaining funds of the MLE and the BAE. I really believe those players will be there because the market could be pretty dry...and everyone isn't going to bail to Europe or just retire.

I don't see teams giving up centers in a salary dump move...if they did, we'd have Kaman for Stack happen. That's not the case though, teams know that big men are valuable and you want talent in return. Considering a young big man is out on the market and has the potential to be a solid contributor night in and night out and he's for that price...the MLE, you've gotta seriously jump at it. Why, because the market price for him is cheaper than what you'd be able to get with similar talent for a big.

Damp might be here, but he's definitely not going to stay here a real long time, so would you rather have a hole at the position or have something to work with?

And with your edit...considering that the few players that actually fit the Nene frame are pretty much on the teams that stand in our way (LA and Denver), I would say that concern is very valid and it's not being exaggerated.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

And with your edit...considering that the few players that actually fit the Nene frame are pretty much on the teams that stand in our way (LA and Denver), I would say that concern is very valid and it's not being exaggerated.

I don't think either Bynum or Gasol fit that description.

BGMaverick9 · 06-06-2009, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I don't think either Bynum or Gasol fit that description.

I would disagree, I know you don't Frankenstein them together but Combined they're an issue. I know Damp really can't guard Gasol anymore. In the past he would just try to muscle him up and Gasol was done. I think Gasol has matured and has more confidence to where he knows he can get around Damp and muscle is all Damp has got. That trick might work on Bynum for a while but he's still strong enough and has enough speed to cause Damp issues. Plus, Bynum has a decent amount of post moves to where Damp isn't sure what is coming next and he'll have to be ready for anything. I just think their size as a whole presents a big enough problem, as opposed to the size/speed combo of Nene.

The center position isn't the same kind of player that it used to be back in the day. Damp's style/frame is a dying breed, you've gotta be quick and strong. I think a player with Gortat's skills and motor is a fit on any single team in the league. He's quick and I haven't seen a situation yet where you'd call him a soft Euro guy.

I know it was one game, and that's not enough to judge a performance, but I came away impressed with his D. Gortat showed me in a short stint that his frame is wide enough and his feet are quick enough to stagger Gasol and make things difficult. He is quick off his feet and he's got a lot of bounce, he can get off the ground multiple times really quickly. The defensive part of his game was the part I wasn't very familiar with but it seems consistent with his "report" if you made one for his style:
Quick, Aggressive, Relatively smart

I'm still not sure why Gortat is that big of an issue because we know Damp is gone in the near future and we don't have a legitimate guy in waiting who is ready to take the spot. And again, for a center who would be a fit on practically any roster in the league, and you can get him for the MLE instead of 8-10 million or trading away a wing player...I don't see this as bad. Carlisle has said he wants to get quicker and athletic at the 5 spot...ding ding ding.

Flacolaco · 06-06-2009, 11:44 PM

I can always tell which tags are Underdogs even before I verify them.

ghazi · 06-06-2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Stack SHOULD be able to get us a wing. So I think that part will take care of itself and then we can get bargain/steal players with the remaining funds of the MLE and the BAE. I really believe those players will be there because the market could be pretty dry...and everyone isn't going to bail to Europe or just retire.

I don't see teams giving up centers in a salary dump move...if they did, we'd have Kaman for Stack happen. That's not the case though, teams know that big men are valuable and you want talent in return. Considering a young big man is out on the market and has the potential to be a solid contributor night in and night out and he's for that price...the MLE, you've gotta seriously jump at it. Why, because the market price for him is cheaper than what you'd be able to get with similar talent for a big.

Damp might be here, but he's definitely not going to stay here a real long time, so would you rather have a hole at the position or have something to work with?

And with your edit...considering that the few players that actually fit the Nene frame are pretty much on the teams that stand in our way (LA and Denver), I would say that concern is very valid and it's not being exaggerated.

Pau Gasol can play center, and he was dumped in a salary move

Hornets last year tried to trade Chandler for a few scrub expirings.

It can happen!

Thespiralgoeson · 06-07-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I would disagree, I know you don't Frankenstein them together but Combined they're an issue. I know Damp really can't guard Gasol anymore. In the past he would just try to muscle him up and Gasol was done. I think Gasol has matured and has more confidence to where he knows he can get around Damp and muscle is all Damp has got. That trick might work on Bynum for a while but he's still strong enough and has enough speed to cause Damp issues. Plus, Bynum has a decent amount of post moves to where Damp isn't sure what is coming next and he'll have to be ready for anything. I just think their size as a whole presents a big enough problem, as opposed to the size/speed combo of Nene.

Neither Bynum nor Gasol are beating people with their speed. I could be wrong, but I don't see how Gortat helps us here any more than Damp does.

Quote:

The center position isn't the same kind of player that it used to be back in the day. Damp's style/frame is a dying breed, you've gotta be quick and strong. I think a player with Gortat's skills and motor is a fit on any single team in the league. He's quick and I haven't seen a situation yet where you'd call him a soft Euro guy.

People have been saying this for several years now and frankly I think it's utter myth. It's just one of those conventional cliche's people just throw out there like "defense wins championships." The big, muscular centers of the league aren't going anywhere. Look around the league and I think you'll find a lot more Erick Dampiers than you will Amare's. Also, I think Gortat has a lot more in common with Dampier than you might think.

Quote:

I know it was one game, and that's not enough to judge a performance, but I came away impressed with his D. Gortat showed me in a short stint that his frame is wide enough and his feet are quick enough to stagger Gasol and make things difficult. He is quick off his feet and he's got a lot of bounce, he can get off the ground multiple times really quickly. The defensive part of his game was the part I wasn't very familiar with but it seems consistent with his "report" if you made one for his style:
Quick, Aggressive, Relatively smart

Again, I could be dead wrong, but I just don't see Gortat matching up much better with the Lakers than Dampier does. As long as Dirk Nowitzki is our starting 4, we're always going to have problems defensively with any team that has multiple options in the low post.

Quote:

I'm still not sure why Gortat is that big of an issue because we know Damp is gone in the near future and we don't have a legitimate guy in waiting who is ready to take the spot. And again, for a center who would be a fit on practically any roster in the league, and you can get him for the MLE instead of 8-10 million or trading away a wing player...I don't see this as bad. Carlisle has said he wants to get quicker and athletic at the 5 spot...ding ding ding.

This I do agree with. From a longevity standpoint, he would be an excellent pick up.

BGMaverick9 · 06-07-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Pau Gasol can play center, and he was dumped in a salary move

Hornets last year tried to trade Chandler for a few scrub expirings.

It can happen!

Chandler is probably the only one out of the batch of centers we're interested in. Kaman won't be had for a salary dump, Camby won't, Shaq could be for a partial one but they'll want some talent to go with it. But of course, the guy who is probably a lock for a salary dump has a lot of risk that goes along with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Neither Bynum nor Gasol are beating people with their speed. I could be wrong, but I don't see how Gortat helps us here any more than Damp does.

People have been saying this for several years now and frankly I think it's utter myth. It's just one of those conventional cliche's people just throw out there like "defense wins championships." The big, muscular centers of the league aren't going anywhere. Look around the league and I think you'll find a lot more Erick Dampiers than you will Amare's. Also, I think Gortat has a lot more in common with Dampier than you might think.

Again, I could be dead wrong, but I just don't see Gortat matching up much better with the Lakers than Dampier does. As long as Dirk Nowitzki is our starting 4, we're always going to have problems defensively with any team that has multiple options in the low post.

This I do agree with. From a longevity standpoint, he would be an excellent pick up.

Speed, strength and length...I saw all of those work in favor of Gortat when he was defending Gasol, I think he even had a block on Bynum. I don't think he's an imposing figure for slashers, but he definitely tries and can get a decent share of blocks. I don't think Dirk's D or lack of it should mean it knocks Gortat's potential down. Right now Gortat might not help more than Damp does...but I'm willing to go out on a limb that he would be able to sooner rather than later.

BTW, Defense DOES win championships, haha.

Gortat does have similarities to Damp, but I think the speed and offense ability can set Gortat above Damp. Gortat can finish in the same style as Chandler, Hollins, Birdman etc...he rolls off of picks very well and can finish. Damp doesn't have the hands to consistently handle simple to slightly difficult passes. Gortat runs the floor and if he continues to do that it's making the opposing team's center have to run back even harder and exert more energy. Eventually, he would make you pay for not keeping up and you'd have to adjust.

I'm basing this off the thought that Stack is going to be dealt for a guard. So if you've taken care of the guard position, what's the next thing to go for...the big. I still believe the value and pricetag is great for a big man like him. If this is the ONLY move we make, then it's not going to make us an elite team, but I'm pretty confident this isn't the only signing/move we would make. I think we'll do our thing with Stack, we can do this move and still be able to pick up 1, maybe 2 quality vets at a bargain price. So a new wing player, Gortat, a rookie, and 1-2 new vets: that's a pretty good start.

At worst, I think Gortat can get to Damp's level of performance...and he has a decent shot at exceeding it with it only being his 2nd season in the league and his first full year. The point is I don't think he's hit his ceiling yet and that's what should be considered. What you see now probably won't be the end result to his game, it can get better. So if you have that in-house and at the price of most of the MLE, that's cashing in before you miss out.

chumdawg · 06-07-2009, 12:47 AM

Dampier made a living off his performance in the NCAA's. Literally. The dude has been cashing checks ever since then, more often than not for no good reason. If you replace him with someone who has a competitive pulse, you are ahead of the game.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-07-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Dampier made a living off his performance in the NCAA's. Literally. The dude has been cashing checks ever since then, more often than not for no good reason. If you replace him with someone who has a competitive pulse, you are ahead of the game.

Chum, I love ya, but I think you're full of shit when it comes to Dampier. The guy busts his ass as much as anyone else. I'll take him over a healthy LaFrentz ten time outta ten.

chumdawg · 06-07-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Chum, I love ya, but I think you're full of shit when it comes to Dampier. The guy busts his ass as much as anyone else. I'll take him over a healthy LaFrentz ten time outta ten.

Love ya too, bro, but "bust his ass" is a phrase that I would never think to associate with Erick Dampier.

And I don't think he would, either.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-07-2009, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Chandler is probably the only one out of the batch of centers we're interested in. Kaman won't be had for a salary dump, Camby won't, Shaq could be for a partial one but they'll want some talent to go with it. But of course, the guy who is probably a lock for a salary dump has a lot of risk that goes along with him.

Speed, strength and length...I saw all of those work in favor of Gortat when he was defending Gasol, I think he even had a block on Bynum. I don't think he's an imposing figure for slashers, but he definitely tries and can get a decent share of blocks. I don't think Dirk's D or lack of it should mean it knocks Gortat's potential down. Right now Gortat might not help more than Damp does...but I'm willing to go out on a limb that he would be able to sooner rather than later.

BTW, Defense DOES win championships, haha.

Gortat does have similarities to Damp, but I think the speed and offense ability can set Gortat above Damp. Gortat can finish in the same style as Chandler, Hollins, Birdman etc...he rolls off of picks very well and can finish. Damp doesn't have the hands to consistently handle simple to slightly difficult passes. Gortat runs the floor and if he continues to do that it's making the opposing team's center have to run back even harder and exert more energy. Eventually, he would make you pay for not keeping up and you'd have to adjust.

I'm basing this off the thought that Stack is going to be dealt for a guard. So if you've taken care of the guard position, what's the next thing to go for...the big. I still believe the value and pricetag is great for a big man like him. If this is the ONLY move we make, then it's not going to make us an elite team, but I'm pretty confident this isn't the only signing/move we would make. I think we'll do our thing with Stack, we can do this move and still be able to pick up 1, maybe 2 quality vets at a bargain price. So a new wing player, Gortat, a rookie, and 1-2 new vets: that's a pretty good start.

At worst, I think Gortat can get to Damp's level of performance...and he has a decent shot at exceeding it with it only being his 2nd season in the league and his first full year. The point is I don't think he's hit his ceiling yet and that's what should be considered. What you see now probably won't be the end result to his game, it can get better. So if you have that in-house and at the price of most of the MLE, that's cashing in before you miss out.

I don't necessarily disagree with anyting you're saying. It just depends on what we're expecting out of him. You could argue until you're blue in the face over which one is better. My only point is that I don't see him as a major improvement over Dampier. Now if we're thinking of Gortat purely as a long term Damp-replacement, then absolutely, he'd be a great pickup. However, I still haven't given up hope on Kaman. I know it's unlikely that he can be had for just a salary dump, but remember, it is the Clippers we're talking about here.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-07-2009, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Love ya too, bro, but "bust his ass" is a phrase that I would never think to associate with Erick Dampier.

And I don't think he would, either.

And I've never heard one reasonable argument to support that he is lazy or an underachiever. I swear to god I think people give him shit just because of the way his face looks. People use to do the same thing to Marquis Daniels.

ghazi · 06-07-2009, 01:11 AM

One case for Damp being an underachiever is he averaged 12/12 and had a PER of 20 during his final contract year with Golden State and hasn't come close to replicating that production since.

Not saying I agree, but it's certainly a case.

I don't mind Damp though. I think he's a little underrated when people refer to players like Gortat and Kaman as BIG or CLEAR upgrades.

Maybe they are upgrades, but it certainly isn't big or clear to me! Damp was better than Kaman this year FWIW.

However, I am of the belief that many of the remnants of the '06 championship team should be sent in different directions considering 3 straight years of diminishing returns since.

That means JET/Josh/Stack/Damp!

Thespiralgoeson · 06-07-2009, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

One case for Damp being an underachiever is he averaged 12/12 and had a PER of 20 during his final contract year with Golden State and hasn't come close to replicating that production since.

That's the only one I've heard that makes any sense, and I still think it's bogus (not directed at you obviously, ghazi.) His numbers were inflated that year because GS had dealt away both Arenas and Jamison that offseason. The only guy on that team who could score was J-Rich and so Damp has never had that many offensive touches before or since. It was also the only year he had in Golden State where he wasn't splitting minutes with Adonal Foyle. Since coming to Dallas, he's also never gotten anywhere near the 32 mpg he got in 04.

For the life of me, I just couldn't understand (still can't to this day) what people thought they were getting in Dampier. People accused him of underachieving when he didn't average a double double in Dallas. Nevermind that his numers in 05 were actually better than his career numbers. I just don't get it. When someone calls Dampier lazy, that implies that he's capable of playing much better than he is. I don't see it. I've never once seen Dampier on court and thought "Psh, he could've ran faster for that rebound" or "Good god, he didn't even try to contest that shot!" (God knows, I thought those things quite a bit about Shawn Bradley, who the Damp-haters around here ironically seem to love.) I just don't see the illusion than Dampier is somehow capable of giving more than he is. Is he not running has he could? I don't buy it. He hustles for every rebound, every loose ball etc... I have no idea why people think he's capable of more. Does he have some super secret skills that he just chooses not to display because it takes too much energy?

I just don't believe it. The truth is, I don't think the Damp-hate around here has nearly as much to do with Erick Dampier as it does with Steve Nash. If the Mavs had acquired Damp one year before or after losing Nash, I don't think there would be any such notion that Damp is lazy. Damp is merely a scapegoat for losing Nash.

TheMaverick · 06-07-2009, 03:31 AM

you can never have too many quality big men

BGMaverick9 · 06-07-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I don't necessarily disagree with anyting you're saying. It just depends on what we're expecting out of him. You could argue until you're blue in the face over which one is better. My only point is that I don't see him as a major improvement over Dampier. Now if we're thinking of Gortat purely as a long term Damp-replacement, then absolutely, he'd be a great pickup. However, I still haven't given up hope on Kaman. I know it's unlikely that he can be had for just a salary dump, but remember, it is the Clippers we're talking about here.

That's pretty much what it should come down to...Damp is certain to a departure as early as this summer and definitely the following summer at the latest. So why not go for it with a big relatively young center?

I don't see any reason to give up on Kaman but I definitely think they'll want Josh in a deal...and I know you're against that. That would still be somewhat of a salary dump, but they're getting pretty good talent in return. They want a SF in a return deal because they're not happy with Thorton and would rather have him come off the bench.

Flacolaco · 06-07-2009, 11:00 PM

Because of this thread I paid extra attention to him tonight.

All I can say is this: I hope you were talking about someone else.

BGMaverick9 · 06-07-2009, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Because of this thread I paid extra attention to him tonight.

All I can say is this: I hope you were talking about someone else.

That always happens haha. It'll always get one guy!
His Game 1 performance was much better, he wasn't on the court with Dwight as much in Game 1.

TheMaverick · 06-08-2009, 01:04 AM

He ran a great pick and roll late in the fourth, with a nice finish with his left hand. He looks more refined offensively than Dwight to tell you the truth. The other stuff tonight.. I agree, was not so great

BGMaverick9 · 06-08-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

He ran a great pick and roll late in the fourth, with a nice finish with his left hand. He looks more refined offensively than Dwight to tell you the truth. The other stuff tonight.. I agree, was not so great

More often than note he rolls into the paint quickly after setting a pick and 90% of the time he doesn't get a pass and he's usually open for a few seconds. That's literally the only play you'd have to run for him. Any other points he gets can be just off of putbacks.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-08-2009, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

So the denver series was all just a bad dream?

No, it was a bad matchup. If Dirk wasn't such a horrible helpside defender, we might not have these problems with "athletic big men."

mpb319 · 06-08-2009, 07:37 AM

I am on the bring Shaq to Dallas bandwagon....
but...if that is not possible then adding Gortat would be a pretty good idea. He can hit a 10-12 ft jumper on a pick and pop or roll to the basket and catch and finish.
Having a center who you have to guard will make the offense that much better.
His defense is not too bad...he has size and a tough attitude plus he isn't a sloth.
Adding him to Damp and Hollins would give us some big men to work with.

purplefrog · 06-08-2009, 12:31 PM

I like any player who can touch the backboard with his feet.