Now that Gortat´s not coming... - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

seelenjaeger · 07-13-2009, 04:32 PM

I see the excitement in the initial Gortat plan, but honestly, now that Orlando matched the offer, that gives us a REAL nice position in the market.

Money is already gone in the FA market, our roster rebuilt is well underways, and there´s still some guys out there who might be worth a look with our MLE or a share of it...

David Lee
Linas Kleiza
Lamar Odom (!?)
and even Andre Miller might be an interesting option (2 year deal with team option or partially guaranteed for the third?)

I´m not saying that I like the addition of any of those better than the Gortat, but honestly - you can still move Howard for Kaman and try to get something for Dampier if you REALLY want a change at the 5...

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 07-13-2009, 04:34 PM

Howard's not going anywhere for Kaman. The F.O. is not even that crazy about Kaman, while they love Josh.

destroy ALL · 07-13-2009, 04:35 PM

how do mavs get camby?

mavsfan4lyfe201 · 07-13-2009, 04:38 PM

camby is a good fit, but hes expiring..you have to offer the clips at least howard and prob picks.. but its clear the mavs need a center..

seelenjaeger · 07-13-2009, 04:39 PM

Howard was key, before Marion got here. Now he -might- be expendable (if we can get a guard somehow who´s bigger than Terry). But that´s actually not the point of my discussion. If we sign any of the above I´m happier than with Gortat.

My prios:

(1) Odom
(2) Lee
(3) Kleiza
(4) Miller

mavsfan4lyfe201 · 07-13-2009, 04:40 PM

oh and i really hope orlando chokes on all the money theyve spent. they wont make it to the finals two years in a row, anyway.

dalmations202 · 07-13-2009, 04:41 PM

I'd see if the MLE to Odom would work.

At least they get to take LA down a notch while building up a little.

If they could do a MLE for Odom, and then do a JHo or Damp for that matter for Kaman (I know some don't like him, some do) -- then you move Matrix to the 2 and use Odom as a point forward.

Kidd, Matrix, Odom, Dirk, Kaman/Damp with Terry as the backup 1/2 -- Marion able to go 2/3/4 -- Odom the 3/4. Dirk the 4/5. They would still be very versatile.

I am guessing that Odom would put up more points that Gortat, but you would lose some defense, IMO. Camby/Chandler would be nice maybe instead of Kaman just to defend the rim. Who knows.

mavsfan4lyfe201 · 07-13-2009, 04:42 PM

cuban and donnie got problems now. forget lookin for a starting SG. they need a center who can score. donnie nelson is horrible at making moves, im scared for us.

seelenjaeger · 07-13-2009, 04:46 PM

David Lee might play "some" Center. Just like Othella Harrington back in his old days with Houston. Then again, he can´t defend the rim.
I´m amazed that Kleiza has such a bad Rebounding. I always thought he could play 3-4-5, but honestly his Rebounding is a downer (though we might not actually need any rebounding Center having the PG, SF and PF manned with excellent rebounders).

Justin Credible · 07-13-2009, 04:51 PM

The only thing that I can come up with is that the Magic are looking to take on Gortat and trade him off in hopes of recovering from the loss of Turkoglu.

This really sucks.. The Mavs are basically screwed. It would be nice to pull Odom, but why would he come to the Mavs for the same amount that the Lakers are offering him?

Looks like the FO has a decision to make.. Forget about 2010 or go for it right now by trading Damp off for another 5 and potentially a SG.

Zki41 · 07-13-2009, 04:55 PM

Let's sign Odom and hold him hostage and make LA trade for him

Dirkenstien · 07-13-2009, 04:55 PM

Nothing really excites me on that list. Kleiza is interesting and could fit in our system as a back up 4/3. I'm guessing Odom will be back with the Lakers.

seelenjaeger · 07-13-2009, 05:00 PM

The Mavs are screwed because we didnt add a Center Project on a loaded contract? That´s a bit harsh, isnt it?

Justin Credible · 07-13-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

The Mavs are screwed because we didnt add a Center Project on a loaded contract? That´s a bit harsh, isnt it?

Possibly.. But in the process of hanging in limbo and waiting for the Magic to "reject" Gortat there have been a lot of moves, including one that got rid of a majority of our currently valuable trade pieces.

Now there's the MLE, some pieces that can't be packaged together, and the dust chip.

What quality bigs do you think we can still get for the MLE?

MavsX · 07-13-2009, 05:18 PM

i hope the magic choke on this too. they kept saying for the last week, that they were not going to match the offer. wtf

mavs777 · 07-13-2009, 05:22 PM

If we did get Redd for Damp+ Caroll or Buckner I would do JHO for Kaman in a second

Zki41 · 07-13-2009, 05:28 PM

The best thing we could do is ride the year out, and then fill the two major holes in our roster, 2 and 5. DUST chip could be used to fill one of the holes ... for example, Bosh ... and then we use any assets we have to acquire someone for the second hole.

Mavsfan4ever · 07-13-2009, 05:29 PM

Are there any centers worth going after still out there?

seelenjaeger · 07-13-2009, 05:30 PM

The key question is:

(a) do we REALLY need a quality big, now that we kinda overhauled our roster at the 1-4?
(b) are the available ones REALLY worse than gortat?
(c) can´t we fill the "hole" at the 5 another way other than adding a guy like Gortat?

Concerning (a): Do we need to add something at the 5 to get to the Finals in the West?

Which team is REALLY having a dominant 5 nowadays in the West, and are those teams strong enough at the 1-4 to make up for the "gap" there with the advantage they have at the 5? Our key problems have been size and D on the small positions and Rebounding, and so far, we adressed those.

Let´s see - signing anybody with the MLE is ruled out unless you want to play Lee or Kleiza at the 5. The more I think about it, the more I like the Lee addition. We´ve played Bass at the 5 last year alot - I don´t think playing Marion - Nowitzki - Lee would result in a total breakdown.

So it comes down to "who´s out there". I think -some- GS Big Guy might enter the market sooner or later. You can always try to go for someone like Eddy Curry (I don´t like him either), and maybe Ty Chandler will somehow appear somewhere. Honestly, I haven´t seen enough of Gortat to really tell if that´s a big loss - but at the moment it´s nothing I start to knee jerk about.

And about (c):

Hey, if that´s another season of Dampier + spares (Humphries, Jawai, Nivins) we´ll see alot of small ball anyways, but after the roster changes small ball can STILL rebound and somewhat defend.

Sign Lee, play him, Nivins (or Jawai, Nivins) and Damp some time at the C, and you still have a very solid rebounding crew, that might easily reach the Western Finals.

Whether or not that´s gonna be enough to face the Fakers or Orlando remains to be seen, but once Cleveland or Boston beat Orlando, not having a real C won´t kill the Mavs. There´s not much to fear at the C nowadays in the West imho with our current squad.

Zki41 · 07-13-2009, 06:13 PM

Um ... teams with centers like Dwight Howard, Nene, Shaquille O'Neal ... just to name a few, will absolutely destroy us in the paint if we do not have a big man who can post up/defend/clog the lane.

seelenjaeger · 07-13-2009, 06:29 PM

Yeah, but out of those, most are in the East, and Nene "might" be defended by a guy like Lee or Dampier for a game or seven... or at least held to 25 / 15.

I´m really curious about Jawai btw. If he ever gets in shape and hits the floor ... he´s got a nice body for sure.

pepe · 07-13-2009, 07:22 PM

Lee and Odom are the most appealing names...Keep Damp and Hollins and lets roll the dice, not too many Centers in the West scare me with a Lee, Damp and Hollins rotation Center

jthig32 · 07-13-2009, 07:36 PM

As I stated in the other thread, I'm not so sure this moves completely destroys the Mavs' plans this season. I maintain that a Dirk/Marion/Josh front court is going to see a lot of time this coming season. It honestly wouldn't shock me to see Marion spend half his minutes at PF this season.

What this move DOES potentially do is seriously hinder the Mavs NEXT season, especially when it comes to moving Damp in a huge trade.

For the first time this offseason I honestly have no clue what the Mavs should do next. I have absolutely no idea what direction they're leaning in regards to adding players.

Let's see what happens I guess.

Underdog · 07-13-2009, 07:47 PM

Gimme Josh/Damp for Crash/Okafor!

(just set up the negotiations - I'll supply the drugs...)

GermanDunk · 07-13-2009, 08:02 PM

How ´bout some social criticism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eodTD7RAyD0

jthig32 · 07-13-2009, 08:49 PM

Intersting article from Hollinger below. The stuff about Orlando's poker game seems spot on. I don't think it's a coincidence that they announced that they were matching Gortat one business day after signing Bass. They totally played us.

However, Hollinger's contention that losing Gortat is a major blow to the Mavs' prospects next season is ridiculous. The difference between Damp and Gortat playing minutes next season was not going to be significant, and I've obviously made it clear that I didn't think Gortat was going to bring an immediate significant upgrade.

And as I've already been preaching this evening, I think a true center is going to play less than 30 minutes a game this season for the Mavs. So for the third time, I think the impact of losing Gortat is going to be felt AFTER this season, not so much during it.

Quote:

One of the fun games-within-a-game of free agency is the poker match. Knowing who's serious, who's bluffing, who's just trying to up the ante and what's in everyone else's hand is just as important in this game as it is at the tables in Vegas.

We saw a perfect example today, as a spectacular piece of card playing by Magic general manager Otis Smith left the Mavericks slack-jawed, while once again illustrating the dangers of signing offer sheets early in the free-agent period.

Smith shocked nearly everyone by matching Dallas' five-year, $34 million offer sheet to Marcin Gortat, the Polish backup center who is unlikely to play more than 10 minutes a game next season because he's backing up all-world center Dwight Howard. Fans haven't seen much of Gortat because he's stuck behind Howard, but the dude can play -- he's mobile, rebounds well and can score. But between salary and luxury tax, Gortat will cost the Magic close to $12 million this year, which is nearly a maximum salary.
When Dallas presented the offer sheet, Smith said he wanted all seven days to make up his mind and would have taken eight if he could have. But don't believe him. He knew exactly what he was going to do all along.

Every good team does -- in preparation for free agency, it runs through all the scenarios of what another team might offer its players, and if so whether it would match. The Magic almost certainly knew on July 1 whether they were matching this deal; they just didn't let everyone else in on the secret until today.
In fact, it's quite likely they sprinkled some leaks indicating that they wouldn't match; surely it was believable given their status as a luxury-tax team in an old arena in a small market. Why pay so much more for a secondary piece?

But if they already knew they were matching, it was a brilliant stroke, because it allowed them to get a second player at a discount price. Remember, Gortat isn't the only big man Orlando inked this week -- the Magic also signed Brandon Bass to a four-year, $18 million deal. And Bass, you'll surely remember, played for the Mavericks last season.

By making Dallas believe that they wouldn't match the offer for Gortat, they were able to throw the Mavs off the scent of Bass. At the time, the Mavs were thinking letting Bass go to the Magic would eliminate any chance of losing Gortat. Here's what The Dallas Morning News reported at the time: "The Mavericks stepped aside in negotiations for Bass, allowing him to sign with the Magic. His presence with the Magic virtually guarantees that Marcin Gortat will be a Maverick. He signed an offer sheet … and Orlando has until next week to match the offer … The Mavericks are no longer worried about that possibility."
Psych! This is Lucy pulling the football out from Charlie Brown, folks. Orlando created the impression that it was going to let Gortat leave, the Mavs fell for it hook, line and sinker, and as a result the Magic got to sign the player they coveted at power forward (Bass), in addition to keeping Gortat like they always knew they would.

The only drawback is that their clever little ruse was darn expensive. Gortat and Bass combine to put the Magic about $10 million over the luxury tax; next year, that figure will be closer to $20 million. For wee little Orlando to fork out that kind of money is a serious commitment, especially since its new arena is still a year away from completion. Clearly, owner Rich DeVos and team president Bob VanderWeide are willing to sacrifice a chunk of their bank account over the next two years to win a title, and the people of Orlando shouldn't take this for granted -- many owners wouldn't do the same.

And in case you get any sneaky ideas, remember that Gortat can't be traded until Dec. 15, can't be traded without his consent for a full year, and can't be traded to Dallas at all until next summer. So don't think the Magic are holding Gortat for ransom -- the rules on offer sheets are set up to avert those kinds of shenanigans. This is strictly a buy-and-hold maneuver.

One has to wonder where the spending spree will end for the Magic. They're still sitting on a mammoth trade exception from the Hedo Turkoglu deal; I've been under the impression there was no chance they'd use it and add further to their tax bill, which is why I criticized their making the deal. But if I'm mistaken and they have the green light to spend, that changes everything -- they can take on another mammoth contract and might be strongly tempted to at the trade deadline.

Nonetheless, their summer work is likely all but done. They still have a small portion of their midlevel exception left and may pursue another guard from the free-agent flotsam later this summer, but with a powerful 10-man rotation under contract they'll probably just add a couple of minimum vets, possibly re-sign holdover Tyronn Lue as a third point guard, and call it a day.

Meanwhile, the Mavs are left high and dry by today's news. They had planned for Gortat to start at center and let Bass, last season's primary frontcourt backup, leave because of it. Now Dallas has to scrounge through the free-agent leftovers because the Mavs basically lost two weeks waiting for the Magic to stick it to them.

In the meantime possible solutions like Chris Andersen, Paul Millsap, Antonio McDyess, Channing Frye, Zaza Pachulia and Rasheed Wallace have inked deals with other teams; so too, of course, has Bass. Armed only with the midlevel exception, the Mavs don't appear to be in David Lee's price range, leaving them poring over the likes of Glen Davis, Rasho Nesterovic, Joe Smith, Hakim Warrick and Chris Wilcox with their midlevel bucks; that's a pretty jarring step down.

Dallas' best move at this point is likely to go after Davis and hope the Celtics won't match since they already signed Wallace; of course, the once-bitten Mavs may be twice shy on this front.
Another option would be to acquire a big man in a trade, or perhaps in a sign-and-trade. Unfortunately, Dallas used most of its trade chips to acquire Shawn Marion last week; the best asset it has left is Greg Buckner's partially guaranteed $4 million deal, but that can't be used in a package because he was just traded from Memphis, so the most he could bring back is a $5.1 million player.

The only really good asset left, actually, is Josh Howard. He appears to be squeezed by the addition of Marion, and trade rumors have been swirling around him for a while. Because of his team option for next season, he'd also give whatever team acquired him flexibility to jump into the 2010 free-agent chase if it so chose.

Wherever the Mavs go from here, they don't look nearly as strong on paper as they would have if they had wrested Gortat from Orlando … especially since the Magic bluffed them out of Bass along the way. All that happy news I wrote last week about them rivaling San Antonio for second-best in the West is dripping in cold water right now; they still need frontcourt help and that's the hardest help to find.

As for the Magic, their smooth move at the poker table got them an expensive insurance policy on Dwight Howard, and a second frontcourt body capable of matching up with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bynum and Kendrick Perkins in the playoffs. Perhaps that isn't worth $12 million a year, but it's worth something … and with the Magic going all-out in pursuit of a title, they'll pay whatever it takes to win a hand.

Bayliss · 07-13-2009, 08:56 PM

The funny thing about is Dallas with the national media was already in a lose-lose. Had Orlando not matched, they would have been snickering about how the Mavs overpaid for a 10 minute guy who averaged 3 points and 4 rebounds....

Here is the part of the article that is just down right dumb.

Quote:

In the meantime possible solutions like Chris Andersen, Paul Millsap, Antonio McDyess, Channing Frye, Zaza Pachulia and Rasheed Wallace have inked deals with other teams; so too, of course, has Bass. Armed only with the midlevel exception, the Mavs don't appear to be in David Lee's price range, leaving them poring over the likes of Glen Davis, Rasho Nesterovic, Joe Smith, Hakim Warrick and Chris Wilcox with their midlevel bucks; that's a pretty jarring step down.

Dallas' best move at this point is likely to go after Davis and hope the Celtics won't match since they already signed Wallace; of course, the once-bitten Mavs may be twice shy on this front.

Chris Anderson, Paul Millsap, Zaza Pachulia were all restricted free agents. Therefore had the Mavs offered them money then it would have been tied up as well just as Gortat was tied up.

That leaves Antonio McDyess,, Channing Frye, and Rasheed Wallace. Channing Frye aint worth it. McDyess and Wallace both are not centers and would not have helped out the Mavs in the long term. And it debatable if they help out in the short term... Rasheed because of age, and tendency to jack up 3s... McDyess due to health.

Then he states the best move would be the Mavs to sign Big Baby? Are you f*ckin' kidding me? Is that really the best move? Sign a fatass who is 6'7" who plays no defense whatsoever?

Hollinger may love his numbers but this article is just flat out trash.

Dirkenstien · 07-13-2009, 08:58 PM

Meh, screw the Magic. They're not going to win the title any time soon anyhow so it'll be money spent in vain.

Dirkadirkastan · 07-13-2009, 09:04 PM

What is Hollinger saying Cuban should have done? Throw all his money at Bass? The RFA vs. UFA put him behind the 8-ball from the start.

Mavsfan4ever · 07-13-2009, 09:05 PM

I disagree with Hollinger, well Gortat would have helped us we are not dead in the water without him.

rabbitproof · 07-13-2009, 09:41 PM

Played like a guitar.

Next step has to be just Hollins or if possible, moving Buckner out for a piece. Are there any backup 4/5s?

I don't think we want to take up extra cap past 09-10 though.

spreedom · 07-13-2009, 10:01 PM

Honestly... do we even know for sure that Gortat is a better player than Hollins? His per-40 numbers rock, sure, but I think every frontcourt guy that plays behind a superstar gets "backup QB" syndrome.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 07-13-2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

Honestly... do we even know for sure that Gortat is a better player than Hollins? His per-40 numbers rock, sure, but I think every frontcourt guy that plays behind a superstar gets "backup QB" syndrome.

Well of course we don't, we only have samples of his potential. But you have to put that above drafting someone out of college. At least he's shown he can bring it on an NBA level. When you draft someone out of college you have no idea what they'll be like in the NBA.

So in a way this is like having about the #6 pick in the NBA draft and going with Gortat, only for another team to steal him from us.

pkdumas · 07-14-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Kidd, Matrix, Odom, Dirk, Kaman/Damp with Terry as the backup 1/2 -- Marion able to go 2/3/4 -- Odom the 3/4. Dirk the 4/5.

Lineup Fail.

Mavsfan4ever · 07-14-2009, 01:14 AM

I was rereading Hollingers article and something hit me. Isn't it a bit strange that when we got Marion last week he was saying how we could be he biggest competition to the Lakers in the West. Now though since we did not get Gortat we can't even compete with the Spurs just seems like a complete crock of BS to me.

rmacomic · 07-14-2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

I was rereading Hollingers article and something hit me. Isn't it a bit strange that when we got Marion last week he was saying how we could be he biggest competition to the Lakers in the West. Now though since we did not get Gortat we can't even compete with the Spurs just seems like a complete crock of BS to me.

Almost everything Hollinger puts his name on turns out to be a crock of BS.

Dirkadirkastan · 07-14-2009, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

I was rereading Hollingers article and something hit me. Isn't it a bit strange that when we got Marion last week he was saying how we could be he biggest competition to the Lakers in the West. Now though since we did not get Gortat we can't even compete with the Spurs just seems like a complete crock of BS to me.

Our boys might beat the crap out of the Riverwalk scum every season, but it makes no difference: you'll always hear we won't hold a candle to them next year.

Mavsfan4ever · 07-14-2009, 01:44 AM

Sad thing is even if the Mavs won rings our boys would still get no respect.

darkwitzki · 07-14-2009, 03:31 AM

1. Rather stick with Damp and face the season.
2. Let's give Hollins, Jawai and Nivins chance to play.
3. Risking for Chandler, undersized center in Lee, Curry getting rid of fats, is Dalembert worth it?

dalger · 07-14-2009, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Gimme Josh/Damp for Crash/Okafor!

(just set up the negotiations - I'll supply the drugs...)

That deal would be a no-brainer despite losing our biggest trade chips. We'd still get a great center without giving up anything of value. Well, Josh is in fact of value, but we'd compensate the loss by adding Crash.

Considering that Josh has become somewhat expendable now that Marion is on board, I'd even be willing to trade Josh for Okafor, even though that would a negative in the depth department.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

What this move DOES potentially do is seriously hinder the Mavs NEXT season, especially when it comes to moving Damp in a huge trade.

For the first time this offseason I honestly have no clue what the Mavs should do next. I have absolutely no idea what direction they're leaning in regards to adding players.

That's really what s*cks about Orlando matching the offer. Presuming that Gortat would have become a more fitting center than Damp, we could have used the latter to go for an elite player next year, possibly a 2, while keeping the rest of the team intact. Now we probably have to give up something to get a 2 AND a 5.