Dallas Mavericks Offseason Thread - Page 92 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I don't know if this'll make sense but it does to me:

Josh's best spot is probably 3rd or 4th option on this team, the problem I see is if we actually had the talent to make him the legit 3rd or 4th option...he'll fly off the reservation.

I'm not sure I agree. He can definitely display some tunnel vision, but I don't remember him ever pulling a Marion. Even if he did, he'll be so easy to move this year that I wouldn't worry about it.

And if the Mavs had a Kidd/Sessions duo at pg, there would be more than enough assists getting served up to keep scoring options 1 through 3 all very happy, I think.

Edit: Oh, just to be clear, I do agree that Josh should be a 3rd option (on a team with a clear #2).

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm not sure I agree. He can definitely display some tunnel vision, but I don't remember him ever pulling a Marion. Even if he did, he'll be so easy to move this year that I wouldn't worry about it.

And if the Mavs had a Kidd/Sessions duo at pg, there would be more than enough assists getting served up to keep scoring options 1 through 3 all very happy, I think.

Edit: Oh, just to be clear, I do agree that Josh should be a 3rd option (on a team with a clear #2).

That's true...I'm just basing it off the fact he's not a legit 2 but he wants to be, so if he's stuck at the real spot in the pecking order, will he toe the line?

If I understand Toronto's position right now after getting Hedo, they've gotta free up space, renounce or trade guys. I think Stack would be mighty appealing with Parker or Marion.

Underdog · 07-04-2009, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Right, I honestly liked the Charlotte one better with
Kidd/Felton
Bell/Terry
Wallace/Ross
Dirk/Singleton
Damp/Gortat

I think we get better defensively and if you go small you're still quick and have scoring options. You're also still protected with the good center combo.

I'm definitely a bigger fan of this one too...

I like Redd in the other lineup, but Bell's defense & 3-point ability seem to make more sense on this team... That starting five would really lock down the D!

Imagine Kidd & Felton distributing, Bell & Terry sniping from the 3-point line, Wallace & Gortat scoring points in the paint, Damp & Ross locking down defensively and Dirk being Dirk by drawing double teams to allow this assortment of talent to do their thing...

I wouldn't fear the Lakers or the Cavs with this squad, no sir!

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's true...I'm just basing it off the fact he's not a legit 2 but he wants to be, so if he's stuck at the real spot in the pecking order, will he toe the line?

If I understand Toronto's position right now after getting Hedo, they've gotta free up space, renounce or trade guys. I think Stack would be mighty appealing with Parker or Marion.

I'm not sure that works, though, since Stack would still count 2 million against the cap. Haven't tried to work the numbers to back that up, but my guess is that 2 million would prevent Toronto from beating the Blazers' offer. I think the only way the Mavs get in on Hedo at this point is if Orlando's willing to play the S&T game themselves.

CadBane · 07-04-2009, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Felton is a free agent - it would have to be a sign & trade...

(and if they're selling the team, they'd definitely want to sweeten any deal that included an $18+mil salary dump...)

True, and I know LB isn't too high on Ray Ray, but I think if they let Ray walk they plan on keeping Crash, they've always liked him there. A sign and trade for Felton is possible, I just don't see them dealing Wallace too.

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm not sure that works, though, since Stack would still count 2 million against the cap. Haven't tried to work the numbers to back that up, but my guess is that 2 million would prevent Toronto from beating the Blazers' offer. I think the only way the Mavs get in on Hedo at this point is if Orlando's willing to play the S&T game themselves.

Hmmm...and if they tried to add that extra 2 million in salary to us to unload and make them clean and free that'll probably null out the idea for it...right?

The players may or may not be ideal but this seems like an ideal situation where Stack seems incredibly valuable to a team.

Underdog · 07-04-2009, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

True, and I know LB isn't too high on Ray Ray, but I think if they let Ray walk they plan on keeping Crash, they've always liked him there. A sign and trade for Felton is possible, I just don't see them dealing Wallace too.

They'd be getting Josh Howard in return, plus his expiring contract (not to mention the instant savings of Stack & George...)

$18MM is a helluva lotta savings for anyone looking to buy a sports franchise...

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 03:20 AM

grndmstr_c, reading from a Toronto board the idea they came up with would be a S&T 3-way deal with Us, Orlando and Toronto:

Orlando receiving Humphries, PF, Stack and cash
Toronto receiving Hedo via S&T
Dallas receiving Marion via S&T

Would Orlando bite?

Underdog · 07-04-2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

grndmstr_c, reading from a Toronto board the idea they came up with would be a S&T 3-way deal with Us, Orlando and Toronto:

Orlando receiving Humphries, PF, Stack and cash
Toronto receiving Hedo via S&T
Dallas receiving Marion via S&T

Would Orlando bite?

I'm still a big Marion fan - I think Kidd could make him relevant again...

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-04-2009, 03:25 AM

I honestly don't think it matters as much whether Josh is the #2 or #3 option. What matters is that Dirk, Josh, and Jet were the only players on the team last season who averaged 10ppg or more. That is a pretty big dip, and the only other teams with a similar situation were the Pacers and Nets. So my point is, if you have to ONLY rely on Josh and Jet to carry the load after Dirk, then this team will be in trouble next season IMO. So although Josh may not be a bonafied number 2 option, the real problem is that you have to rely on him to score because the options after those three are just too inconsistent.

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'm still a big Marion fan - I think Kidd could make him relevant again...

I think he could as well. Marion is not the same Marion but it's still pretty good use of the chip. I'm just not sure if Orlando can see that as beneficial to do.

sike · 07-04-2009, 10:23 AM

I could see The Mavs getting Felton or Wallace (and love the idea)...but both seems too good to be true.

mavs777 · 07-04-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'm still a big Marion fan - I think Kidd could make him relevant again...

and you still have Damp/ George to use in a trade, and if you want Jet or JHO

tcat075 · 07-04-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

grndmstr_c, reading from a Toronto board the idea they came up with would be a S&T 3-way deal with Us, Orlando and Toronto:

Orlando receiving Humphries, PF, Stack and cash
Toronto receiving Hedo via S&T
Dallas receiving Marion via S&T

Would Orlando bite?

I would consider a deal like that. For sure. Right now, I'm not sure how much of a better player we could get with Stack.

bcrav4 · 07-04-2009, 11:06 AM

Jason Kidd will decide by Wednesday if he'll sign with the Knicks or not

BY Frank Isola
Daily News Sports Writer

Saturday, July 4th 2009, 4:00 AM
McWilliam/AP

The Knicks are offering Kidd a three-year contract worth approximately $18 million.

Jason Kidd is expected to make a decision on his future no later than Wednesday, the first day that teams can actually sign free agents, according to a person close to the veteran point guard.

Kidd returned to his home in Dallas to contemplate his next move. The Knicks, who hosted Kidd on Tuesday, have offered him a three-year contract worth approximately $18million. The Mavericks' three-year offer is closer to $25 million.

The difference in the financial terms is significant, especially when you factor in that Texas has no state income tax. If Kidd's decision comes down to money, he will re-sign with the Mavs. But the idea of playing at the Garden and living in the Big Apple also appeals to Kidd, who has business interests in the New York area as well.

Kidd was considering talking to Portland but decided to meet just with the Knicks. The Blazers were reportedly close to signing free agent Hedo Turkoglu earlier Friday, but according to NBA.com, he is now considering an offer that may exceed $10 million a year from Toronto. The Blazers were said to be interested in restricted free agent David Lee but would likely have to negotiate a sign-and-trade to acquire him now.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...xzz0KJ6cUCEE&D

-----

If db.com is right and the last year of Kidd's contract is only half guaranteed, then the difference between the NY and DAL contracts is really $18million vs. $20million respectively. Or am I wrong?

mavErika · 07-04-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog
Kidd/Sessions
Redd/Terry
Wallace/Ross
Dirk/Singleton
Gortat/Hollins

Nice ideas, UD. Redd instantly becomes more interesting to me if he comes with Sessions.

Thinking out loud. If a straight salary dump would arguably get you Redd and Sessions, would you have an easier or harder time getting them with a package of JET/Stack/JJB/filler? Say the Bucks bit on that (more long term obligations but more talent and plenty of savings this year relative to what Sessions + Redd would cost), you lost Bass but kept Hollins and Singleton, and didn't trade Josh:

Kidd/Sessions/Boobie
Redd/Ross
Josh/LLE
Dirk/Singleton
Gortat/Damp/Hollins

Depending on who fills that LLE slot (Barnes?) your backups on the wings probably leave something to be desired (expect to see Kidd and Sessions on the court at the same time), but your center rotation isn't lacking, and you've still got both Josh and Damp available to you as trade chips to make future moves.

As much as I am usually enjoying your (and BG's, UD's...) trade ideas, I just cannot warm towards any of the Milwaukee scenarios. Sessions seems to be a pretty good pg (relying on stats here, I think I never watched any bucks-games other than those vs. the mavs - and oh, that would be a good place for a disclaimer in allusion to this and my general lack of profound basketball knowledge), but assuming Kidd comes back, that's not one of our priorities (and on another note I think Milwaukee-Mgt. has also indicated strong interest in keeping him).
Redd seems to be a longish, injury prone and more expensive version of Terry. Trading the Jet, who is as reliable as they come and who carried us together with Dirk to the playoffs(where he happened to disappear), for Redd, who DNP'd for the most part of the season (only played in 33 games, missing 88 games during the past three seasons) to me is just gambling with Dirks Prime. With Redd instead of Terry, we wouldn't have made it to the playoffs in the first place. Not to mention that you'd have to toss in our backup pg and our most valuable tradechip for the Redd/Sessions package. Idk if Redd's contract is expiring, maybe that would make it worth it, but if so he probably wouldn't be on the trading block.
The initial idea of trading Damp/Stack for them didn't appeal to me either, as I'm still hopeful(/still in stage of denial) we can get an impact-player for each of 'em. And as jthig pointed out in some of his numerous posts in the Gortat-thread, there should be no hurry in trading damp as he is our insurance on the center spot and his contract gets only more valuable until the february trade-deadline. If there is a trade out there now, demanding both of our instant-savings-tradechips, I'd like to see more reliable respectively better fitting value in return.

That's not to say I'm generally against trading Terry. Dude had an career year with 6th-man-of-the-year honors, so if there is a taker for his longterm contract, willing to give up a reliable two-way player or who has some other convincing talent to offer and who doesn't mind or is unaware of his inferior defense, I might be willing to support the idea, but I think you always need to consider that you would be losing a constant scoring threat and a great and for the Mavs probably the most important locker room presence in him. JT was asked to be our #2 option and responded for most of the year. I guess the fact that his shots were not falling in the playoffs and he seemingly forgot how to drive (which I think I can recall seeing him doing that a lot over the course of the season) makes a lot of you willing to give him away for too less respectively players fraught with big risks, which I cannot imagine to be a good deal.

On the other hand I love the idea of trading with Charlotte. Okafor was my biggest hope for our center spot, although that should be no longer an issue until we know what we get in Gortat(assuming we get him at all).
G.Wallace would be great, the FO is/was reportedly very high on Felton and somebody here described R.Bell as defensive minded sg able to hit the three on a high percentage, so them in selling mode would be great news. Don't know what to make of Cubans denial concerning their situation.

Now please go on detecting and analyzing trade options, I just wanted to express my discomfort in giving up our core-players for too little.

dude1394 · 07-04-2009, 01:27 PM

Whatever occurs...we have to have a wing that can run a pnr with the dirkster. Jet can do it now and if he's not on the floor at the end someone else needs to do it. Josh cannot and jkiddo cannot.

So even if we get a 2 or 3,it has to be the right 2or3.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 01:37 PM

The health question with Redd is a fair one, and I've raised it myself (probably somewhere back on page 64 of this thread or something). Before you pull a trade like that you've obviously got to be comfortable with how he's recovering from his knee injury.

I didn't write the proposal from the prospective of a JET hater, either. I love the guy and regularly stand up for him on this forum, but I'm also aware of his limitations (size and lateral movement on defense), and the fact that, when healthy, Redd's a better option as a #2 scorer.

As for Sessions, he may not be gettable, but if he were I'd have no trouble pairing him up with Kidd. I'd think they'd be capable of playing on the court at the same time, taking advantage of the fact that both have good size, and that their offensive games (outside of their passing) aren't very redundant (Sessions makes his living in the lane and at the free throw line, Kidd mostly on the perimeter and a little in the post). I don't think you'd be making any significant sacrifices by getting them both at least 30 mpg next season, and as time goes on and Kidd transitions to a bench role it'll be important to have somebody who can take over for him. Sessions would give you that guy.

I agree about the standard for giving up Damp. Stack's got to go, so you just have to do the best you can with him, but Damp's value is not declining right now, and you have to be selective there. He and Josh, actually, are the two chips that the team can't afford to cash in except in an over-the-top move, both because of their contract statuses (stati?), and because of their abilities to contribute on the court.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 02:04 PM

Houston apparently not trying to re-sign Von Wafer.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archiv...lay_elsewhere/

I find that surprising, but count me as interested in him for the BAE.

Nowitzki4President · 07-04-2009, 02:20 PM

Did't know which tread to post it in, so I'll put it here. This may not be news to you, but it was to me...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...eal/index.html

Turkoglu makes verbal commitment to Raptors
By David Aldridge, TNT Analyst
Posted Jul 4 2009 10:37AM

An already crazy free agent period in the NBA got downright bizarre on Friday, with the supposed sure deal between Orlando free agent forward Hedo Turkoglu and the Portland Trail Blazers falling apart late in the afternoon, and the veteran, late Friday evening, making a verbal commitment to the Toronto Raptors on a five-year deal that will pay him in excess of $60 million, according to league sources.

Turkoglu's change of heart -- he was in Portland Thursday and Friday, meeting with team officials along with his agent, Lon Babby -- came after the Raptors decided to do what they had been reluctant to do until then -- renounce their rights to several of their own free agents, including forward Shawn Marion and guards Anthony Parker and Carlos Delfino, in order to create the more than $10 million in cap room necessary to make a superior offer to Portland's

badfish22 · 07-04-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Whatever occurs...we have to have a wing that can run a pnr with the dirkster. Jet can do it now and if he's not on the floor at the end someone else needs to do it. Josh cannot and jkiddo cannot.

So even if we get a 2 or 3,it has to be the right 2or3.

Exactly, right now our whole late game/4th quarter offense is two man basketball with Dirk and Jet. So we need someone who can shoot a spot up jumper and handle the ball decently ALONG with driving to the basket (something JET doesn't do).

mac222b · 07-04-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badfish22

Exactly, right now our whole late game/4th quarter offense is two man basketball with Dirk and Jet. So we need someone who can shoot a spot up jumper and handle the ball decently ALONG with driving to the basket (something JET doesn't do).

Doesn't it seem like Vince Carter would've been best suited for this? Maybe we didn't have what it took to get him but... i agree we need someone who can break down the defense and get to the line- R. Jefferson does this too. It just seems more and more likely that Cuban never intended to use Stack and they'll spin it as a positive for 2010. I hope they have some blockbuster deal lined up with Charlotte or something but idk, we've only got a month left to deal Stack.

mavErika · 07-04-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

The health question with Redd is a fair one, and I've raised it myself (probably somewhere back on page 64 of this thread or something). Before you pull a trade like that you've obviously got to be comfortable with how he's recovering from his knee injury.

I didn't write the proposal from the prospective of a JET hater, either. I love the guy and regularly stand up for him on this forum, but I'm also aware of his limitations (size and lateral movement on defense), and the fact that, when healthy, Redd's a better option as a #2 scorer.

Sorry, I didn't mean to brand you as such, I just had the overall impression that here are many of these trade proposals which I described above, yours being the newest one.

Quote:

As for Sessions, he may not be gettable, but if he were I'd have no trouble pairing him up with Kidd. I'd think they'd be capable of playing on the court at the same time, taking advantage of the fact that both have good size, and that their offensive games (outside of their passing) aren't very redundant (Sessions makes his living in the lane and at the free throw line, Kidd mostly on the perimeter and a little in the post). I don't think you'd be making any significant sacrifices by getting them both at least 30 mpg next season, and as time goes on and Kidd transitions to a bench role it'll be important to have somebody who can take over for him. Sessions would give you that guy.

I agree about the standard for giving up Damp. Stack's got to go, so you just have to do the best you can with him, but Damp's value is not declining right now, and you have to be selective there. He and Josh, actually, are the two chips that the team can't afford to cash in except in an over-the-top move, both because of their contract statuses (stati?), and because of their abilities to contribute on the court.

Ok, if you can envision him as a guy playing a good chunk of minutes on the 2 spot and somehow your medical personnel could assure you Redd is coming without serious health-issues, certainly you should consider that trade.
We would have filled the hole on the 2-guard position with a whole new rotation and improved our backup PG. As much as I love The Jet and JJ (and the Stack-Chip*), that would be a serious upgrade.

See how easy to impress I am? At the end of the day I like almost every of you guys ideas.

*edit: not to be mistaken - meaning for trading purpose!

EricaLubarsky · 07-04-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Houston apparently not trying to re-sign Von Wafer.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archiv...lay_elsewhere/

I find that surprising, but count me as interested in him for the BAE.

Wafer is a little more offensively focused than Ross, but still a nice backup. Basically a 10 point scorer off the bench. 45% FG, 39% 3pt, 75% FT but pretty low on the rebounds and assists per 48 at 4.4reb, 2.8ast. Basically same build and size.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 03:52 PM

^ ^ Which basically means he'd start in Dallas. Last year was the first time he's gotten any kind of a chance to log regular minutes, and he made the most of it. Just about to turn 24. I'd go that direction before I'd go for Barnes.

mavs777 · 07-04-2009, 04:48 PM

No way Wafer starts, he is built as a 3/2 to go off the bench, he doesn't pass much, when he comes in, he tries to score he can score by penetration he is athletic so he can finish, and shoot the 3, if he though comes I will come to conclusion Mavs have given up on Wright, and I am under impression that he would be a solid player coming off the bench getting minutes at the 2/3

LonghornDub · 07-04-2009, 04:57 PM

Wafer would be a great signing for the LLE. He can knock down the open 3 fairly well, something 80% of the Mavs' roster can't do.

sefant77 · 07-04-2009, 05:04 PM

Wafer is a horrible chucker.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Wafer is a horrible chucker.

He shot 39% from 3 on the season, and 40% in the playoffs. Both of those numbers are better than every single player on the Mavericks' roster except for Kidd (and yes, that includes both Dirk and Terry).

But yeah, he's terrible.

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Wafer would be a great signing for the LLE. He can knock down the open 3 fairly well, something 80% of the Mavs' roster can't do.

He would easily be a prime candidate for the starting SG spot. He'll try to look for the MLE from someone, but I don't see any takers.

sike · 07-04-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

He would easily be a prime candidate for the starting SG spot. He'll try to look for the MLE from someone, but I don't see any takers.

But don't we think the Chip is going to be used for a SG?

sefant77 · 07-04-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

He shot 39% from 3 on the season, and 40% in the playoffs. Both of those numbers are better than every single player on the Mavericks' roster except for Kidd (and yes, that includes both Dirk and Terry).

But yeah, he's terrible.

Yeah but the few Rockets games i saw he played too often in complete braindead modus...

LonghornDub · 07-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Yeah but the few Rockets games i saw he played too often in complete braindead modus...

So I guess we should ignore the statistics and refuse to add him, based on your experience watching him in a "few Rockets games"?

mavs777 · 07-04-2009, 05:42 PM

Wafer isn't what the Mavs should look for to get starting SG they need another scorer to complete Dirk along with Terry and Howard assuming they stay

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

But don't we think the Chip is going to be used for a SG?

I like how you adapted to "the chip." Wise

The chip can very well do that...it never hurts to have extra insurance at a very good rate. He COULD be a starter, but if we find the right guy to fill that slot, then he's a very capable shooter off the bench.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

But don't we think the Chip is going to be used for a SG?

Could be. But it could also get used on a desirable young PG (Sessions or Felton) or a SF (Williams or Miller). In either case I doubt you'd find a better SG option in free agency than Wafer.

And to those who think he wouldn't start on this team as currently constituted...you are aware that the team in question is the Mavericks, right? That last year their primary starters at SG were Wright and George. Wafer's PER last season was about twice as high as either one of theirs.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Wafer isn't what the Mavs should look for to get starting SG they need another scorer to complete Dirk along with Terry and Howard assuming they stay

17.9 points per 36 minutes on 54.1% true shooting last season.

mavs777 · 07-04-2009, 05:48 PM

^^^and he doesn't pass or rebound

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Could be. But it could also get used on a desirable young PG (Sessions or Felton) or a SF (Williams or Miller). In either case I doubt you'd find a better SG option in free agency than Wafer.

Who?

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Who?

Marvin (ATL)