I have to say that any trade is useless...

[Simon2]

Here we are speculating on so many trades.. Fin to Chicago for Curry. Walker for Rasheed. I have come to the realization that no matter who the Mavs get, Nellie will play a strange lineup. Why? Because he can. The plan when the Mavs made the trades was so they could put out 5 all-star caliber players. Have those players played together for an extended period of time yet? Conventional wisdom says to put Fin at 2 because he's really a SG and he is bigger than most. What does Nellie do? He says, he's really a 3. The Mavs have Fortson and Bradley as their centers. Both have played decently and from what I remember, they have few really negative plays. What does Nellie do? He doesn't play them any significant minutes. We have Jamison. Da Man in GS and a very good player. He's coming off the bench playing 20 minutes? The Mavs said they needed a center. Mutumbo and Stepania were out there and they didn't offer them much. Mutumbo for a mil? Who knows what they offered Stepania. So, speculating on getting the "right" players is just frustrating. Even if we think we have really good players, Nellie will just continue playing tricked up lineups.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

Here we are speculating on so many trades.. Fin to Chicago for Curry. Walker for Rasheed. I have come to the realization that no matter who the Mavs get, Nellie will play a strange lineup. Why? Because he can. The plan when the Mavs made the trades was so they could put out 5 all-star caliber players. Have those players played together for an extended period of time yet? Conventional wisdom says to put Fin at 2 because he's really a SG and he is bigger than most. What does Nellie do? He says, he's really a 3. The Mavs have Fortson and Bradley as their centers. Both have played decently and from what I remember, they have few really negative plays. What does Nellie do? He doesn't play them any significant minutes. We have Jamison. Da Man in GS and a very good player. He's coming off the bench playing 20 minutes? The Mavs said they needed a center. Mutumbo and Stepania were out there and they didn't offer them much. Mutumbo for a mil? Who knows what they offered Stepania. So, speculating on getting the "right" players is just frustrating. Even if we think we have really good players, Nellie will just continue playing tricked up lineups.

Hehe,yea,Nellie's messed up,thats why we mustn't bring a player like Sheed,who can play a couple of positions,we need a PF/C who can play PF/C,like J.Oneal,Ben Wallace,etc...
Nellie wouldn't have any choice but to play them at their natural positions.

[Dirkenstien]

I agree... man Nellie frustrates me sometimes. This team is going to go through growing pains anyways so you might as well throw the kids out in the water and let them learn to swim on their own. I hate having jamison off of the bench...we should start and end with our 5 allstar claiber players.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien
I agree... man Nellie frustrates me sometimes. This team is going to go through growing pains anyways so you might as well throw the kids out in the water and let them learn to swim on their own. I hate having jamison off of the bench...we should start and end with our 5 allstar claiber players.

Like I said before, Jamison doesn't owe the Mavs or Nellie anything. He should not be coming off the bench and he should demand that he play more minutes.

[LRB]

So maybe the Mavs should just trade Nellie. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB
So maybe the Mavs should just trade Nellie. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Finally, a man of reason!

[MavsFanatik33]

Yes, Nellie can switch around the lineup like no other coach and it frustrates me as well, but what can he do? He has 3 forwards that should start, and no center. Either he starts Dirk at center or he has to put Jamison on the bench, either that or Walker. Until we get a true center our lineup will always be crazy, no matter what coach we have.

[jayC]

Well if any trade is useless. Then we wouldn't have finley, nash, nowitzki, walker, jamison, Delk, Fortson, Bradley, and most of the roster acquired through trades. Don't be stupid in your knee jerk reaction. The mavs are a better team, they can outrebound teams something that rarely happened last season. They can play in the half court very successfully. Check this out 17 second chance points, that wouldn't happen without jamison, walker or fortson.

[Murphy3]

it's too early to seriously discuss trading any player in a mavs uniform...now, keeping an eye on available players is always a good idea...but, until we see how the mavs will shape up...how they will mesh, there's no reason to really throw out Mavs players when discussing a trade...it's just too early.

they may not need a trade..they may...a bit too early

[Max Power]

It won't take many more games like this one to make ALL the current Mavs untouchable.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Max Power
It won't take many more games like this one to make ALL the current Mavs untouchable.

Too bad we can't work it out where we can play all our games at home. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
it's too early to seriously discuss trading any player in a mavs uniform...now, keeping an eye on available players is always a good idea...but, until we see how the mavs will shape up...how they will mesh, there's no reason to really throw out Mavs players when discussing a trade...it's just too early.

they may not need a trade..they may...a bit too early

Murph, Is it too early to discuss trading Bradley???? Do Utah or NY Brass still have a man crush on him? A Bradley & TAW for Tag or Bradley & Best for KT sounds doable. Kinda intersting that both of these guys are free after this season & have already said they would like to play for Dallas next season. On another note, I hope Daniels does not show too much this season. If he does, the Mavs may have trouble resigning him next season. He does not yet have Bird rights & I think our MLE will be better used to sign one or two os several servicable big men that will be available next off season.

[EricaLubarsky]

Miami trades: Coach Patrick Riley(1,110 wins 87opp ppg)
Miami receives: Coach Don Nelson (1,111 wins 112 ppg 111opp ppg)

Dallas trades: Coach Don Nelson (1,111 wins 112ppg 111opp ppg)
Dallas receives: Coach Patrick Riley(1,110 wins 87opp ppg)
Change in team outlook: -24.4 opponents ppg, +3rpg,

TRADE ACCEPTED

[Dirk Nowitzki]

Miami trades: Coach Patrick Riley(1,110 wins 87opp ppg)
Miami receives: Coach Don Nelson (1,111 wins 112 ppg 111opp ppg)

Dallas trades: Coach Don Nelson (1,111 wins 112ppg 111opp ppg)
Dallas receives: Coach Patrick Riley(1,110 wins 87opp ppg)
Change in team outlook: -24.4 opponents ppg, +3rpg,

TRADE ACCEPTED
I think this is how you ment it EL

[EricaLubarsky]

I am such a moron. Sheesh. Thanks Dirk.

[seelenjaeger]

Originally posted by: Simon2

Like I said before, Jamison doesn't owe the Mavs or Nellie anything. He should not be coming off the bench and he should demand that he play more minutes.

Huh? Now what´s that a statement? I don´t think a player should have the right to DEMAND to play more minutes. that would be pretty unacceptable and egoistic.

This sport is about TEAMS, about championships. It´s not about personal statistics or trophies. If Jamison wanted to be in a position to demand something from a team, or a coach, he should have become a tennis player or something alike. Basketballl is about team, is about doing what is needed to make the team win. And the responsibility lies on Nellies shoulders. Any "I demand to play more" attitude is unacceptable to me, at least to some degree (there are exceptions, though, and I am not adressing the "Coach, let me in, I can win this game for us" attitude).

[LRB]

Originally posted by: seelenjaeger

Huh? Now what´s that a statement? I don´t think a player should have the right to DEMAND to play more minutes. that would be pretty unacceptable and egoistic.

This sport is about TEAMS, about championships. It´s not about personal statistics or trophies. If Jamison wanted to be in a position to demand something from a team, or a coach, he should have become a tennis player or something alike. Basketballl is about team, is about doing what is needed to make the team win. And the responsibility lies on Nellies shoulders. Any "I demand to play more" attitude is unacceptable to me, at least to some degree (there are exceptions, though, and I am not adressing the "Coach, let me in, I can win this game for us" attitude).

On another note if I was making only 1/10 of what Jamison makes per year, not only would I not complain about coming off the bench, I'd glady handwash nellie's car every week and do it with a smile. When you're being paid as much as Jamison, your job is to perform not bitch about petty little things like whether you start or not.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Here we are speculating on so many trades.. Fin to Chicago for Curry. Walker for Rasheed. I have come to the realization that no matter who the Mavs get, Nellie will play a strange lineup. Why? Because he can. The plan when the Mavs made the trades was so they could put out 5 all-star caliber players. Have those players played together for an extended period of time yet? Conventional wisdom says to put Fin at 2 because he's really a SG and he is bigger than most. What does Nellie do? He says, he's really a 3. The Mavs have Fortson and Bradley as their centers. Both have played decently and from what I remember, they have few really negative plays. What does Nellie do? He doesn't play them any significant minutes. We have Jamison. Da Man in GS and a very good player. He's coming off the bench playing 20 minutes? The Mavs said they needed a center. Mutumbo and Stepania were out there and they didn't offer them much. Mutumbo for a mil? Who knows what they offered Stepania. So, speculating on getting the "right" players is just frustrating. Even if we think we have really good players, Nellie will just continue playing tricked up lineups.

Nellie plays "tricked-up" line ups to make up for their deficiencies in the center position. He didn't want Mutumbo & Stepania for the money they were asking for in relation to what they could add to this team. The Mavs went another route. They strenghthened their offense and unconventionally improved their rebounding.

However, I am sure that if Nellie had a proper center (i.e. Shaq, Duncan PF/C, Yao), then he would play a more conventional line up. As it is, we don't have those guys, so Nellie has to go another way. And, I'm willing to give him time to make it work.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: kingrex

Nellie plays "tricked-up" line ups to make up for their deficiencies in the center position. He didn't want Mutumbo & Stepania for the money they were asking for in relation to what they could add to this team. The Mavs went another route. They strenghthened their offense and unconventionally improved their rebounding.

However, I am sure that if Nellie had a proper center (i.e. Shaq, Duncan PF/C, Yao), then he would play a more conventional line up. As it is, we don't have those guys, so Nellie has to go another way. And, I'm willing to give him time to make it work.

Since when has money, especially the relatively little that Mutumbo and Stephania were asking, been an issue to this team. And it would be Cubes, not Nellie who would have money problems if any. I can see Nellie not wanting to make a long term or even short term committment to players whose talent that he doubted would really help his team (anybody remember Popeye jones or Evan Eshmeyer?) But I find it hard to believe that money was the primary factor or even a major factor. More likely is that Nellie didn't want to committ the MLE to either one of these guys in hopes of landing Sabonis who he viewed as a better talent.

[kingrex]

Good point. Cuban has proven to have deep pockets and your point about Eschmeyer and Jones are well taken.

What I should have said, was that Stepania and Mutombo in comparsion to the deals they were probably trying to broker at the same time (namely NVE for Jamison/Fortson) was not the way Nellie wanted to go. He loves the big man who can also shoot from outside (thus Jamison & Walker).

[LRB]

I'm still hoping that somehow, someway Donnie can convince Sabonis to come play for us. I don't expect this to happen, but I still hope. I do hope that we can pick up a 6'10"+ big body with decent rebounding and D for center this year and at least a little offense. We don't need someone great, but decent. And if we didn't have to burn the most of the MLE to get them, we could still hold out hope for Sabonis.

[kingrex]

I too like Sabonis. Maybe sign him after the All-Star break to give him enough time with the rest of the guys. Maybe have do spot duty at the 5 for about 20+ minutes. I like his court savy and passing ability from the post position. Plus, his bulk in the middle is a better solution for Shaq than anything we've got now.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: seelenjaeger

Huh? Now what´s that a statement? I don´t think a player should have the right to DEMAND to play more minutes. that would be pretty unacceptable and egoistic.

This sport is about TEAMS, about championships. It´s not about personal statistics or trophies. If Jamison wanted to be in a position to demand something from a team, or a coach, he should have become a tennis player or something alike. Basketballl is about team, is about doing what is needed to make the team win. And the responsibility lies on Nellies shoulders. Any "I demand to play more" attitude is unacceptable to me, at least to some degree (there are exceptions, though, and I am not adressing the "Coach, let me in, I can win this game for us" attitude).

What? Have you played team basketball before? Did you like sitting on the bench? Any player with any dignity doesn't like to sit on the bench. Unless he just wants to collect a paycheck. A player can demand whatever he wants as long as he has the clout to pull it off. Jamison averages over 20 pts 7 rbs a game.

Ok. Answer me this. Who is a better player based on last year's stats? Jamison or Delk?

If I were a coach, I would welcome any player that demands to play more. Shows he cares. I'll play him minutes but if he screws up, he's on the bench till he shows me something in practice.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB

On another note if I was making only 1/10 of what Jamison makes per year, not only would I not complain about coming off the bench, I'd glady handwash nellie's car every week and do it with a smile. When you're being paid as much as Jamison, your job is to perform not bitch about petty little things like whether you start or not.

Lol! Can you average over 20 pts 7 rbs a game in the NBA? If you can, go to the nearest open practice. Better yet, go to the Mavs practice. Of course, you'd keep quiet if you were being paid Jamison money coz you don't deserve it. Sorry buddy, there's reason why he's getting the money.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Simon2


Lol! Can you average over 20 pts 7 rbs a game in the NBA? If you can, go to the nearest open practice. Better yet, go to the Mavs practice. Of course, you'd keep quiet if you were being paid Jamison money coz you don't deserve it. Sorry buddy, there's reason why he's getting the money.

Yes there is a reason why he's being paid and it has nothing to do with bitching and whining. He's being paid to help his team win and do what his coach tells him to do to the best of his abilities. And at my job I don't always get my way. Things are quite often not done the way I think best. But I'm paid good money, not near what Jamison makes, but a lot more than most people, to use some unique skills that I have. And I try to go out and do my very best. I expect no less from someone like Jamison.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB

Yes there is a reason why he's being paid and it has nothing to do with bitching and whining. He's being paid to help his team win and do what his coach tells him to do to the best of his abilities. And at my job I don't always get my way. Things are quite often not done the way I think best. But I'm paid good money, not near what Jamison makes, but a lot more than most people, to use some unique skills that I have. And I try to go out and do my very best. I expect no less from someone like Jamison.

Really? I don't know what your job is but let's say your boss wanted you to do something that is way below your capabilities? For example, you have an MBA or a MCSE, then your boss wants you to answer phones and fetch him coffee for the next year? All for the same money. You'll be earning the same amount. Would you feel happy for the company? Yes. Would you still feel good about yourself knowing you are so much more qualified to do what your doing? Sure, the company is doing great but pretty soon, people will think that you're only good enough to answer phones and get coffee. Pretty soon, you'll be labeled something you don't want and someone other hotshot will be making the big decisions and sitting in your office. Soon, people will be questioning why you're earning what you're earning and pretty soon, you'll get "traded" coz you're way to expensive to be getting coffee.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Simon2

Really? I don't know what your job is but let's say your boss wanted you to do something that is way below your capabilities? For example, you have an MBA or a MCSE, then your boss wants you to answer phones and fetch him coffee for the next year? All for the same money. You'll be earning the same amount. Would you feel happy for the company? Yes. Would you still feel good about yourself knowing you are so much more qualified to do what your doing? Sure, the company is doing great but pretty soon, people will think that you're only good enough to answer phones and get coffee. Pretty soon, you'll be labeled something you don't want and someone other hotshot will be making the big decisions and sitting in your office. Soon, people will be questioning why you're earning what you're earning and pretty soon, you'll get "traded" coz you're way to expensive to be getting coffee.

And yet Jamison isn't being asked to make coffee. He is beign asked to use his unique skill set to help his team. So your analogy breaks down there. What he is being asked to do is fill a less glamorous role, but still one important to his team's success. And that I have done and currently do. It will hardly affect his marketability, infact it will increase it by showing what a willingness he has to sacrifice personal glory to make his team succeed. He gets to focus his skills on being an explosive scorer. And if he pushes the Mavs to a championship and decides he's tired of the role as 6th man, there will be plenty of opportunities for him to go elsewhere.

But the scale of money these guys make dwarfs that of normal people. One year of Jamison's salary could support a family in comparative luxary to 99% of the people in this country. But most importantly if he wasn't willing to do what it took to make his team a success, then he shouldn't have signed the contract.

[Dirkenstien]

There is nothin wrong with a player expressing how he feels, but what must be remembered is that this is a professional league and these guys are professionals, therefore must handle matters in a professional manner. It is probably preferable infact that a employee tell his/her employer why he respectively disagrees, aslong as it is handled appropriately ofcourse.

The problem would not be that a player (Jamison in this case) disagrees about any situation in particular because everyone has a right to an opinion, but when that player handles the situation unprofessionally and negatively affects his team or supporting cast, then that situation carries probability in evolving to an unfortunate altercation type issue.

[LRB]

Dirkenstien there is a difference with expressing your opinion, which I do quite frequently at work, and bitching and moaining. What I was complaining about are the athletes who just bitch and moan and refuse to do what the coach asks. Like Kobe the other night against the Grizz or Stevie Franchise refusing to pass the damn ball to Yao. And if the coach asks you to come off the bench because he thinks that's best for the team and you don't like it, then by all means tell the coach. But don't go have a publich hissy fit because you didn't get your way. And certainly don't give less than your best effort when on the court.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB

And yet Jamison isn't being asked to make coffee. He is beign asked to use his unique skill set to help his team. So your analogy breaks down there. What he is being asked to do is fill a less glamorous role, but still one important to his team's success. And that I have done and currently do. It will hardly affect his marketability, infact it will increase it by showing what a willingness he has to sacrifice personal glory to make his team succeed. He gets to focus his skills on being an explosive scorer. And if he pushes the Mavs to a championship and decides he's tired of the role as 6th man, there will be plenty of opportunities for him to go elsewhere.

But the scale of money these guys make dwarfs that of normal people. One year of Jamison's salary could support a family in comparative luxary to 99% of the people in this country. But most importantly if he wasn't willing to do what it took to make his team a success, then he shouldn't have signed the contract.

The coffee was a metaphor. It symbolized doing something way below the capabilities of Jamison. Anyway, let's agree to disagree on this one. I would welcome people standing up for themselves while you would rather have harmony. In my mind, a major reason Walker is starting instead of Jamison is that Walker would have probably raised a stink about coming off the bench. Jamison, as it played out, was the "good" guy and agreed to follow Nellie's wishes. Can you imagine Walker's displeasure at being traded from being a starter in Boston to someone off the bench?

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB
Dirkenstien there is a difference with expressing your opinion, which I do quite frequently at work, and bitching and moaining. What I was complaining about are the athletes who just bitch and moan and refuse to do what the coach asks. Like Kobe the other night against the Grizz or Stevie Franchise refusing to pass the damn ball to Yao. And if the coach asks you to come off the bench because he thinks that's best for the team and you don't like it, then by all means tell the coach. But don't go have a publich hissy fit because you didn't get your way. And certainly don't give less than your best effort when on the court.

I think somewhere in the thread you equated "demanding to play more" to a "public hissy fit". I didn't suggest that he sit out games like football. I was just amazed at how easily Jamison agreed with the idea. I'm sure he wants to play and is disappointed that he's coming off the bench. No matter what he says to the media. He's only saying the politically correct things but I know deep in his heart, he is disappointed. I don't know him but I know I would be disappointed if I were in the same situation.

[LRB]

The coffee was a metaphor. It symbolized doing something way below the capabilities of Jamison. Anyway, let's agree to disagree on this one. I would welcome people standing up for themselves while you would rather have harmony. In my mind, a major reason Walker is starting instead of Jamison is that Walker would have probably raised a stink about coming off the bench. Jamison, as it played out, was the "good" guy and agreed to follow Nellie's wishes. Can you imagine Walker's displeasure at being traded from being a starter in Boston to someone off the bench?

Don't get me wrong, it's fine for Jamison to express his feelings to Nellie. To go public and bitch about it is an entirely different matter. And supposedly he didn't express any reservations to Nellie when he had the chance.

And as far as jamison and walker, I definitely think that Jamison has the better personality of the 2 to deal with coming off the bench. Takes a lot more maturity to handle that. But I also feel like that Jamison is the more exposive scorer of the two and better suited in that aspect than walker. While walker has better all around skills. It's conviently nice for the Mavs that the two reasons coincide so well.

[Simon2]

Don't get me wrong, it's fine for Jamison to express his feelings to Nellie. To go public and bitch about it is an entirely different matter. And supposedly he didn't express any reservations to Nellie when he had the chance.

Agreed!

And as far as jamison and walker, I definitely think that Jamison has the better personality of the 2 to deal with coming off the bench. Takes a lot more maturity to handle that.

Because Jamison was more "mature", Walker is averaging 35 mins per game while Jamison has 27 mins. Seems unfair again to Jamison. Walker gets to play more because Jamison was more accepting

But I also feel like that Jamison is the more exposive scorer of the two and better suited in that aspect than walker.

Might disagree again with you here. You need an explosive scorer to start games. A good start is always good.

While walker has better all around skills. It's conviently nice for the Mavs that the two reasons coincide so well.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Simon2


[

Because Jamison was more "mature", Walker is averaging 35 mins per game while Jamison has 27 mins. Seems unfair again to Jamison. Walker gets to play more because Jamison was more accepting

Might disagree again with you here. You need an explosive scorer to start games. A good start is always good.

We already have the big 3 as explosive scorers to start the game. Walker's complimentary skills fit in better here. Jamison gives us a big boost coming off the bench. Hopefully he will be getting 30 or more minutes most games. The key is to have him come in and explode against the oppositions 2nd team.

Still if you aren't going to start Bradley at center, I'd just as soon see Jamison starting.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB

We already have the big 3 as explosive scorers to start the game. Walker's complimentary skills fit in better here. Jamison gives us a big boost coming off the bench. Hopefully he will be getting 30 or more minutes most games. The key is to have him come in and explode against the oppositions 2nd team.

Still if you aren't going to start Bradley at center, I'd just as soon see Jamison starting.

I love your last statement.