Who should go if one has to? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

bogey · 11-19-2003, 05:11 PM

Antawn vs. Antoine

I contend that Antoine Walker should be traded IF AND ONLY IF an exceptable return is to be had that IMPROVES this team.

Antawn Jamison is fast becoming a favorite Mav to me. I love what he brings, his intensity and willingness to enter the passing lanes, etc. His style of play better fits what the Mavs do best. Walker may fit Nellie's desire of what he wants to make the Mavs do, but it doesn't seem to work just yet. I am first in line for giving time to this team to gel, but if one had to go, I would prefer it be Walker over Jamison.

grndmstr_c · 11-19-2003, 05:18 PM

Agreed. I'm liking AJ's game more and more as time goes on, and there's no reason to dump Walker without getting a solid return on the investment, esp. since the team hasn't yet had time to gel with him, and since his trade value won't peak till next year.

kg_veteran · 11-19-2003, 05:25 PM

I'm not in favor of trading either of them. There are plenty of free agent centers available in the offseason that could fill roles on this team, and the guy(s) you'd get by dealing Walker are not appreciably better.

sike · 11-19-2003, 05:26 PM

same song, different singer....Walker should go(if it helps the team)....but will Nelson give up his beloved point forward?.....nah...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

dirt_dobber · 11-19-2003, 05:27 PM

AJ should be the keeper. His attitude and work ethic
seperates him from Walker, I can't seem to get pass
some of Walker's reasoning of firing so many 3's last
year at Boston (even pissing off Pierce).

I think the date is Dec.20 is when Walker is eligable
to be traded, so I suggest that we keep him until the
25th game against the Kings ...see how it works out then
trade him. (For what is very debateable.)

I believe the 60 clock is ticking......
.

bogey · 11-19-2003, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm not in favor of trading either of them. There are plenty of free agent centers available in the offseason that could fill roles on this team, and the guy(s) you'd get by dealing Walker are not appreciably better.

I agree, which is why I prefaced the post with I contend that Antoine Walker should be traded IF AND ONLY IF an exceptable return is to be had that IMPROVES this team. and then added I am first in line for giving time to this team to gel, but if one had to go, I would prefer it be Walker over Jamison.

Blonde Bomber · 11-19-2003, 05:36 PM

There should be no trade discussing involving Jamison...he's included with the big 3 when trades are discussed (there not)...and the only way I would trade Walker is if we get a steal back like getting Walker for Raef in the first place...but before we look for suiters for Walker or any other mavs for that matter I want to see how this team looks at the All-Star break. We should have a better feel at what this team can accomplish by then...

My preference is not to trade anybody on the roster and look to get a decent center in the offseason like Ostertag or Foyle....or both?

sike · 11-19-2003, 05:48 PM

My preference is not to trade anybody on the roster and look to get a decent center in the offseason like Ostertag or Foyle....or both?[/quote]
so BB is saying that he's happy with who they have going into the playoffs?....interesting

Objective J · 11-19-2003, 05:54 PM

I agree that Foyle or Ostertag in the offseason would be great. But, the reason that I ultimately think that Walker is going to have to go is because there won't be room for him. Supposing that Jamison fits better with the big three, I don't think Walker would be happy coming off the bench. With a starting five of Nash, Finley, Dirk, Jamison and center of choice, I don't know where Walker fits. He would be much better off at a place that needs him as a primary or secondary one on one scorer with three role players on the court with him. Jamison is better at slashing and creating without the ball in his hands.

MavsFanatik33 · 11-19-2003, 06:22 PM

If someone had to go, we'd keep them both and send Steffanson on his way...

Max Power · 11-19-2003, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm not in favor of trading either of them. There are plenty of free agent centers available in the offseason that could fill roles on this team, and the guy(s) you'd get by dealing Walker are not appreciably better.

Man I'm glad I read the thread before I posted. Those were my EXACT thoughts on the matter. Walker in trade isn't going to bring a dominant big man - he won't bring much better than what will be available in the offseason. Jamison won't even bring THAT much because of his contract.

I'd rather keep them and add to the core during the offseason. Unless Orlando has a major brain fart and offers McGrady and Hill for Finley and Jamison - THAT trade I do in a heartbeat.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-19-2003, 06:27 PM

So why all of the sudden is Jamison untouchable?

I don't want to see anyone go yet, but I like what I see in Walker. He can post up, pass, AND shoot the long ball. Jamison is good at creating without the ball, but it seems like a lot of the time he NEEDS to be fed while cutting to the basket to be effective.
Jamison has his place on this roster, but is averaging fewer points and boards, and is nowhere near the passer Walker is.

uberfan · 11-19-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm not in favor of trading either of them. There are plenty of free agent centers available in the offseason that could fill roles on this team, and the guy(s) you'd get by dealing Walker are not appreciably better.

Agree totally. I don't think you would have togive up either one of them to get what is likely available.

You certainly wouldn't/shouldn't have to trade AJ or Walker for a Theo Ratliff as an example. I have not been a great supporter of Ratliff in prior trade talkes, but after watching the current mix and this mix when Bradley is not hobbling too badly, it shows me that a Ratliff-type is the kind of Center the Mavs need.

If you can't use Fortson, Najera, or Best in some combination to get a serviceable C, then wait.

Max Power · 11-19-2003, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: uberfan
If you can't use Fortson, Najera, or Best in some combination to get a serviceable C, then wait.

Don't forget other possible trade bait - Delk. I'd rather have a serviceable center than Delk.

sike · 11-19-2003, 06:47 PM

sure, but it you're talking Delk or these other guys, you won't get anything better than what we already have!....don't trade just to trade....any move must impact the team for the playoffs.....what can you get for Delk and those others????

Jamisonite · 11-19-2003, 08:21 PM

Ok...Walker goes and heres why. Jamison meshes better with the team and doesnt have to be the star. Walker is worth a lot more for trade value. His contract expires in two years. Simply put one of em or bradley and someone else has got to go so we can get Nash at the end of the year. All of you guys are talking FA center. You dont even realize that we dont have the money to sign Nash. Only way to get a FA center and keep Nash is by trading Walker.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-19-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Max Power

Quote:

Originally posted by: uberfan
If you can't use Fortson, Najera, or Best in some combination to get a serviceable C, then wait.

Don't forget other possible trade bait - Delk. I'd rather have a serviceable center than Delk.

I'm interested in knowing who this Big Man the Mav will be trading either guy for? And if that guy can defend and rebound why would that team trade him? Thats a rare in this league which brings me to my point. As MFFL and KG have stated you aren't going to be getting any big man by trading Walker or Jamison that you couldn't get for trading Delk or signing a big man this offseason. I'm sorry to say but neither Walker or Jamison will be leaving this squad.

uberfan · 11-19-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Jamisonite
Ok...Walker goes and heres why. Jamison meshes better with the team and doesnt have to be the star. Walker is worth a lot more for trade value. His contract expires in two years. Simply put one of em or bradley and someone else has got to go so we can get Nash at the end of the year. All of you guys are talking FA center. You dont even realize that we dont have the money to sign Nash. Only way to get a FA center and keep Nash is by trading Walker.

How does trading Walker get you a FA center and allow you to resign Nash?

If you trade him you have to take back that much salary. Unless you believe we will only take back contracts that expire at the end of the season?

Don't forget we also have to factor in the expansion draft in any long term roster moves Mavs make.

grndmstr_c · 11-19-2003, 08:42 PM

We don't need cap room to sign Nash. We have the right to offer him as much as any other team irrespective of our payroll.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-19-2003, 08:48 PM

If you sign Nash to a 4 year contract it doesn't matter how much you offer and that is just depending on whether or not we are a playoff contender in 4 years which I think we will be. We are well over the cap and by the time Fin, Walker, Jamison, and Nash's contracts end we will still be a playoff contender so payroll doesn't really matter now. It mattered last season when we had 4 good players and one who was about to turn 32 but things change when you have 2 guys who are at 30 and 3 others guys who are under 27 who are potential all stars.

Murphy3 · 11-19-2003, 09:01 PM

if I were forced to pick one, I'd keep Jamison. I like that he's primarily an inside scorer. I believe that he fits in pretty well playing the SF spot. ..not saying I don't like certain things about Walker though

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-19-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Jamisonite
Ok...Walker goes and heres why. Jamison meshes better with the team and doesnt have to be the star. Walker is worth a lot more for trade value. His contract expires in two years. Simply put one of em or bradley and someone else has got to go so we can get Nash at the end of the year. All of you guys are talking FA center. You dont even realize that we dont have the money to sign Nash. Only way to get a FA center and keep Nash is by trading Walker.

ummm no...
If it's a money thing, why is everyone happy to keep Jamison's huge contract?
and how does Jamison mesh better with this team? Walker started producing with this team almost immediately, while Jamison's performance has been kind of spotty.

grndmstr_c · 11-19-2003, 09:14 PM

I can't speak for Jamisonite, but my reason for thinking that AJ meshes better at this point is that he doesn't seem to need the ball in his hands as much to make an impact, and his success doesn't really seem to require that the Big 3 change their games. He looks to have found a niche crashing the offensive glass, being set up with passes near the basket, and occasionally creating on his own. AW needs the ball a little more, which sometimes takes it out of the hands of others, and overall I'm not sure that the Big 3 are as effective with AW in the game. Let me clarify, though, by reiterating that this doesn't mean I think AW should be traded. I think we should continue to give him and the team time to adjust to one another.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-19-2003, 09:27 PM

Don't get me wrong. I like having Jamison. He does fill a need here, I just don't think it makes sense that the sentiment from most is that Walker has to go.
That said, walker is the more productive of the two thus far, and he will get the ball more often because he's going to be running the offense in some situations. Jamison doesn't need the ball, which is a double edged sword because I'm really not convinced he's all that good at creating for himself with the ball. It just seems like he's more dependant on being fed the ball than walker...and not to beat a dead horse, but he is the better long range shooter, and the better passer.
Jamison did earn my respect with his on the court play and his off the court generosity, but it just seems like a 2+2=5 type logic to assume he'd be the one to stay around given the performance of both thus far.

bernardos70 · 11-19-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I can't speak for Jamisonite, but my reason for thinking that AJ meshes better at this point is that he doesn't seem to need the ball in his hands as much to make an impact, and his success doesn't really seem to require that the Big 3 change their games. He looks to have found a niche crashing the offensive glass, being set up with passes near the basket, and occasionally creating on his own. AW needs the ball a little more, which sometimes takes it out of the hands of others, and overall I'm not sure that the Big 3 are as effective with AW in the game. Let me clarify, though, by reiterating that this doesn't mean I think AW should be traded. I think we should continue to give him and the team time to adjust to one another.

Well put grandmaster c. I was about to reply to this thread but you wrote pretty much what I think, so I'll just quote you.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

sike · 11-19-2003, 10:00 PM

whether you like him or not.....the best deal at center we will most likely find for this season without trading a major piece is sitting on our bench wearing #44....

grndmstr_c · 11-19-2003, 10:02 PM

Psych, I don't know that AJ is an elite creator on his own, but I do think he is a very capable one. I don't think he'll ever be a guy who will create for others (though he has certainly seemed to be a willing and solid passer), which is the potential that AW brings. It is for this reason that I do not count myself with those who feel that AW has to go. As to Walker's production, yes he's produced more, but he's also been given the opportunity to produce more. And it's really not that I feel that either player has distinguished himself as the better baller in the short time their talents have been on display in a Mavs uni as much as it is that I feel that AJ has proved to be the better fit with the Big 3 the way we are used to saying the Big 3 play. That is why, if I had to move one right now, it would be AW: because the Big 3 together are a proven commodity. It is my hope, however, that over time a chemistry will develop between all of our Big 5, in large part because the odds are stacked against anybody else being traded this year, IMO.

sike · 11-19-2003, 10:14 PM

AT the height of his game....he is an elite scorer....and it is a rare thing to see someone who moves so well without the ball!

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-19-2003, 10:14 PM

That's the main reason I like walker. He will look to create for other people.
I do agree that neither has distinguished himself as better, which is why I don't understand why the discussions are overwhelmingly lopsided in favor of keeping Jamison.
He plays better with the big 3, but is nowhere near as productive as he could be...

kg_veteran · 11-19-2003, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bogey

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm not in favor of trading either of them. There are plenty of free agent centers available in the offseason that could fill roles on this team, and the guy(s) you'd get by dealing Walker are not appreciably better.

I agree, which is why I prefaced the post with I contend that Antoine Walker should be traded IF AND ONLY IF an exceptable return is to be had that IMPROVES this team. and then added I am first in line for giving time to this team to gel, but if one had to go, I would prefer it be Walker over Jamison.

Sorry for not playing along. I read your post. I guess my point was that I agree with you. They shouldn't be dealt unless the deal can improve the team. And it can't, unless the trade includes some other pieces I'm not yet aware of. Walker and Jamison, standing alone, simply won't generate equal, taller value in a trade. You might could get some mentally damaged goods like Rasheed "CTC" Wallace or physically damaged like Theo Ratliff, but there's no way you get close to even value, IMO.

However, if you held a gun to my head, I'd probably keep Walker.

Jamisonite · 11-19-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Psychedelic Fuzz
.
walker is the more productive of the two thus far,.

.............Walker.......Jamison
Mins......36.9.............27.5
Pts........ 16..............13.3
Rebs...... 9.5.............6.2
Ast ........4.5..............1.5
TOs .......2.73..............82
FG%.......440.............469
FT%........ .583..........719

I dont see that much of a production difference here if there is one at all. And keep it mind its Jamison that is having to get used to coming off the bench. And trust me as someone that has played basketball before it makes a difference. You get used to warming up and coming right on the floor and making an impact. Now Jamison has to sit around and wait til hes called and by this time hes gotten cold. In my mind AW might be the better player but AJ is better for our team.

LRB · 11-19-2003, 11:07 PM

Quote:

However, if you held a gun to my head, I'd probably keep Walker.

Well if you held a gun to my head, I'd give you my wallet or anything else of material value that you wanted including Walker. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

But seriously, I agree with you KG, in that it's unlikely that we could get the center that we want by trading one of them. And just to shuffle the pieces without gaining a significant increase in talent is dumb. We would be taking a step back to adjust to the new talent.

bernardos70 · 11-19-2003, 11:49 PM

Interesting numbers Jamisonite. The turnovers are what I really like, .82, that's excellent. Granted, once he has the ball he doesn't pass much [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

LRB · 11-19-2003, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bernardos70
Interesting numbers Jamisonite. The turnovers are what I really like, .82, that's excellent. Granted, once he has the ball he doesn't pass much [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Still their TO/assist ratios are pretty close. Which surprised me.

bogey · 11-20-2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB

Quote:

Originally posted by: bernardos70
Interesting numbers Jamisonite. The turnovers are what I really like, .82, that's excellent. Granted, once he has the ball he doesn't pass much [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Still their TO/assist ratios are pretty close. Which surprised me.

But if you gave Jamison equal minutes, he would probably improve that ratio. He certainly controls the ball better. His assists may or may not rise, but his points sure would.

Jamisonite · 11-20-2003, 12:06 AM

another intriging stat...AW has jacked up 50 3s

Jamisonite · 11-20-2003, 12:08 AM

yes thats my point...hed score more points and have about the same amount of rbs

LRB · 11-20-2003, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bogey

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB

Quote:

Originally posted by: bernardos70
Interesting numbers Jamisonite. The turnovers are what I really like, .82, that's excellent. Granted, once he has the ball he doesn't pass much [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Still their TO/assist ratios are pretty close. Which surprised me.

But if you gave Jamison equal minutes, he would probably improve that ratio. He certainly controls the ball better. His assists may or may not rise, but his points sure would.

Jamison isn't near the playmaker that Walker is. The trouble with walker is that he makes plays for both teams. He also still has that desire to throw the high risk low reward highlight reel pass. I still like Walker, but Jamison definitely brings some different strenghts than Walker.

kingrex · 11-20-2003, 09:47 AM

Firstly, I'm on the side that doesn't want to trade anyone, yet. However, since this is a "gun to your head" thread where we must trade someone, then it depends on the question.

If the question is who on the Mavs would you be willing to trade, then I would say anyone is tradable if the offer is right.

If the question is who of the Big 5 would I give up first, if it meant that a good player would be had in return?

I would say Michael Finley. I love Fin, but with the emergence of Howard and with Delk on the bench, I think we have enough players to shore up the shooting guard position. Moreover, it would keep in tact the strong forward attackt that we have now with (Nowitzki, Walker & Jamison). Lastly, of the Big 5 he is the oldest (okay by one year) of the Big 5.

kg_veteran · 11-20-2003, 09:49 AM

Walker's the better passer, defender, rebounder, and ballhandler, and has better range on his shot.

Jamison's the better scorer, athlete, leaper, and is a better interior scorer. He can get his shot off against anybody.

You could certainly argue for either guy. I just think Walker is more versatile as a basketball player.