Finley overrated? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grbh · 02-18-2002, 03:53 PM

The following was written by Bill Simmons

Before you blanch at the thought of Dallas trading Finley, just remember, he's a little overrated (nobody takes more bad shots during games than him), he's wildly overpaid and the Mavs played just as well without him this season (he isn't best-suited for "third banana" status).

I don't understand this statement. Nobody takes more bad shots in a game than him, huh. Has he ever watched a Celtic game? Fin is shooting 45% from the field. Not lights out, but not bad either. Sure there are times he forces shots, but that is part of the role of a 2 guard on any team. When the shot clock is winding down get it to a guy who can create space for a shot. For Fin that is the fall away. It is not a high % shot but with the shot clock on your back options become somewhat limited.
I have noticed quite a few digs on Finley in the press over the course of the season, and I just don't get it. No he is not Kobe, but the press speaks of him like he is a career 40% shooter. I even read in some article (I can't remember where) that Finley was injury prone.

seelenjaeger · 02-18-2002, 04:20 PM

Actually I do think "overrated" is kinda subjective.

Overrated (overpaid?) according to what?

Overrated / overpaid if you consider Brian Grant, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones? Certainly not.

Is he one of the top SG in the league? Yes.
Is he the leader of the Mavs? No.
Is he the best player on the Mavs? No.
Is he the most egomaniac player on the Mavs? No.
Are there guys in the league considered "stars" that are actually worse than Fin in certain ways? Do I hear Stackhouse. Do I hear Iverson. Do I hear Pierce.

Fin´s role is changing. Nothing more.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 07:29 PM

yes, his role is changing...which makes him very valuable to the mavs if they were looking for a pf/c
why does it make him valuable?..because he is no longer the #1 offensive threat. In fact, nash could even easily step into the role of an excellent passer and #2 offensive threat..
where does that leave finley?..it leaves him the #2 or #3 offensive threat ...
how does that make him valuable?..well, he could be the #1 or #2 guy somewhere else..somewhere that might be looking to move a player that the mavs desperately need.
that's where he becomes a valuable trade commodity..because he could have more worth on other teams..moreso than he does with the mavs

reeds · 02-18-2002, 07:32 PM

Well, not to blow my own horn, but I have said he was overrated about a year before most of you in here are now saying it, and I still stand my my statements. He is above average for sure, but he has too many flaws in his game for me to call him a great player. His shooting is average and when he puts the ball on the floor, well, lets just say his ball handling in NOT good! He can leap, but not really create in my opinion.
He was very fortunate to get that contract when he did, lets put it that way.

And how do u say Iverson is worse in certain ways? Maybe missing more shots, but he can take over many many more games that Fin can/will. PLEASE...

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 07:37 PM

well, finley is better in a couple areas..but iverson is the better player, without a doubt..and the other thing you brought up..about finley being overrated..maybe saying so a year and a half ago..well, reeds..i think you know i was right there with you

reeds · 02-18-2002, 08:10 PM

ya, i think u and I were about the only two back then that thought so..

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 08:11 PM

SG is probably the easiest position to overrate a player..

MavKikiNYC · 02-18-2002, 08:42 PM

Amazing how all the know-it-alls come oozing out of the woodwork when Fin hits a tough streak.

Overrated? Name a Western Conference shooting guard besides Kobe who's better. Name one. So he's not better than Kobe, but Bryant is one of the top five players in the league. Fin definitely has to get healthy and step his game up for the Mavericks to be competitive against the Lakers, but to start tossing out words like 'overrated'?

Fin reminds me a lot of Ro Blackman. Steady, solid, productive player whose good influence on his teammates goes beyond stats. No doubt he anchored this team over the last three seasons when Dirk and Steve were still finding their way. Now they have upped their games to Fin's level. He's no longer head and shoulders above everyone else on the team, but by NO MEANS is he overrated.

Also, to suggest that Nash step up and become the #2 offensive threat shows a real naivete about Nash's game. The premier point guards like Kidd, Nash, Miller and Payton create opportunities for the other scorers on the team first and then score for themselves in reaction to what the defense gives. Trying to convert Nash into a shoot-first pass-later point like Marbury or, God forbid, Iverson is one of the most foolish things I've read on this board so far.

How soon some Mavericks fans turned into a herd of whining, unappreciative grousers. You have three of the top players in the game at their positions, and suddenly when one of them slumps due to injury you're ready to trade him and start saying he's 'overrated'. Next thing you know you'll be booing Nowtizki and Nash again, and heaving batteries onto the court a la Philly fans.

Get a grip. Or better yet, if you want to complain, start following the Knicks.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 09:11 PM

well, he's overrated when people on the board talk about him being one of the best players in the league..being a superstar..yes, he's definitely overrated in that way.

overrated is subjective..many people do overrate him..
and no, we're not just now coming out with it now that he's struggling a bit..this is something we've discussed for the past year.

nash can be the #2 scoring threat simply by taking about the same number of shots he is now...he doesn't have to shoot the ball as finley to score 20 points a game..he gets to the foul line alot and makes a much higher percentage from the field and from behind the arc.
therefore, he can create for others and for himself.
it's definitely not impossible..several great point guards have been able to do it..be the #2 scoring guy and get others involved.
it's not a new concept or anything kiki...sorry

kiki, it has nothing to do with finley's injury..the injury simply helped to illustrate how far nash and dirk have come along...sorry that you don't agree...

MavKikiNYC · 02-18-2002, 09:40 PM

Nash is all the more dangerous when teams have two other threats to defend on the court at the same time--usually, Dirk and Fin.

True, at certain points in the game and depending on the rotation, it works for Nash to be more aggressive and assertive offensively.

Also true, that he and Dirk basically carried the team offensively during Fin's stretch on the IR.

But while Nash is one of my favorite players in the league, there should be a concern with his durability if he's asked to shoulder that type of load over a longer stretch of the season. Nash, in fact, has hit a mini-slump here, ostensibly due to a cold, but also maybe due to greater awareness on the part of opposing defenses. Starting with Portland, teams seem to have defensed him more aggressively. Puting a primary scoring burden on him over the course of a season or for an extended stretch of the seaons would be a total misuse of the strength of his game.

Nash can be a great player and a clutch scorer like Stockton has been, hitting the clutch shots in the second half of ball games when defenses have tightened up on the other threats. And he's definitely showed that he has the cojones to take the big game-winning shot.

But what makes him one of the top three or four classic point guards in today's NBA, is his ability to choreograph the offense and get the ball to the hot scorer. This even seems to've been his pattern in some games this season--distribute the ball in the first half, look for offense in the second half when the Mavs are trying to separate from the other team.

As for the concept of 'overrating' being subjective, maybe you have a point. If you read NBA boards league-wide, you'll see that there are similar assessments of: Shaq, Kobe, Kidd, Iverson, Vince Carter, Allan Houston, and probably just about any other top player in the league. Not bad superstar company for Fin to be in.

If the opinions on this board are representative of those of Mavs fans in Dallas (here's hoping they're not), then it's a shame that when the team has shown such great chemistry over the last year and a half, dissension could be injected from the outside by assinine talk like whether this is Dirk's team or Fin's team, or whether Fin is the second or third option now, or whether he's expendable altogether.

The guy should be given encouragement and support rather than such a jaded what've-you-done-for-me-lately bum's rush.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 10:41 PM

well, hell..let's just have a real good team with a bunch of guys that get along...screw trying to take the next step to compete for a title.
hell, it doesn't really matter, we should just be happy the mavs are winning ..

sorry, that's not the approach i'm taking.

another thing..if fin's a superstar..then there's way too many supposed super stars in the NBA....

personally kiki, i want to see the mavs do what is necessary to take the next step..and if that involves trading finley, then i'm in favor of it.
yes, he's been loyal and good for the team..however, he is being very heavily rewarded financially...he's also being rewarded by being overrated as well..

just my hso..
bring in rasheed and you can leave nash as the #3 scorer most of the time...but he has the capability to be the #2 scoring option and an 8-9 assist guy

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 10:58 PM

and another thing...you haven't been here long enough to know whether or not we're saying "what have you done for me lately"
personally, i don't think finley should have been an all-star last year and maybe not the year before.
to be honest, there are several people on this board that have stated in the past that finley's game would go steadily down hill after a couple of years ago..that he had already reached his prime and wouldn't become a better player

so, accusing me of saying "what have you done for me lately"..well, that's simply just not the case with me. I have always thought that he was overrated..that he was basically nothing more than a good jumpshooter that could jump high....that was a nice guy.

sorry

Bayliss · 02-18-2002, 11:21 PM

Well, Finley is what he is.... a borderline All-Star whose game hasn't changed a whole lot.

First tier shooting guards in no particular order:
1) McGrady
2) Carter
3) Bryant
4) Pierce
5) Iverson

Second Tier Shooting guards in no particular order:
1) Finley
2) Houston
3) Stackhouse
4) Allen

The difference between the two tiers is becoming increasing larger.... and at one time Finley was on the verge of becoming a first tier... but his game has reached a plateau.

MavKikiNYC · 02-18-2002, 11:22 PM

Been here plenty long to recognize whiners and snipers when I see them. Just started posting here last week, but saw that immediately.

Yes, you should be happy the Mavs are winning;
happy that they're one of the top three teams in the league in terms of record; happy that they're every bit as entertaining to watch as the Lakers, Kings, Spurs or Nets; happy that they represent a positive example of team sports, rather than a snarling, backbiting, underachieving group of malcontents like the Knicks or Blazers (the latter from which, not so coincidentally, Wallace hails); and mindful that it could all be blown apart by one dumb trade for a talented but poisonous headcase like Wallace.

Yes, the Mavs should be looking to make a trade that will allow them to challenge the Lakers, Kings and Spurs. But there is no player available to the Mavericks who would represent anything like equal value for Finley. Not only would trading Finley weaken the Mavs, but the resulting lineup would NOT be in a position to challenge these other clubs without Finley's lost production.

Wallace to guard O'Neal? The man literally disappears from sight behind O'Neal in the low post. Juwan covers that thankless task already. Talk about reduncancies? Wallace would only be just another overpaid piece of low-post deadweight INCAPABLE OF CHALLENGING O'NEAL.

Recognize THAT.

It's highly unlikely that the Mavericks can successfully challenge the Lakers and Kings this year, unless Shaq is further incapacitated by injury. If Shaq does go down, then Mavs chances of beating the Lakers are actually better with Finley than some mid-season overhaul. No moves just for the sake of making a move.

Let this team go as far as it can, and look to make the big moves in the off-season, and THEN the player to move is Howard. Not Finley.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 11:28 PM

personally, i'd have allen and stackhouse ahead of finley..but, ...i do agree, finley hit a plateau

and kiki...
there's no reason to start any b.s....no reason to make it personal. we are simply debating ...no reason to start calling people a whiner simply because they don't agree with you.

I'm sorry, but most of the mavs fans i know don't agree with you

recognize this..we're not simply trying to find someone to stop o'neal. ..trying to find someone that will make the mavs stronger inside so they can even worry about having to play against the lakers.
i really hate when people use that...it doesn't matter, they won't be able to stop o'neal.

no..no one can stop o'neal but players can help slow him down enough to give the mavs a chance to compete and have the chance to win

i understand your feelings for finley...however, he is someone that we can discuss moving in the right trade.. no one is saying...we've got to trade the guy...we're simply saying if this guy was offered, yes, we'd make the move.

and guess what, i'm sorry, trading howard probably isn't gonna bring that much in return..

MavKikiNYC · 02-18-2002, 11:40 PM

Bayliss, that seems like a more reasonable case to make.

Finley is certainly a notch below both Kobe and TMac, but while Carter is a more spectacular player than Fin, I'm not sure that his game and style of play would be as compatible with Dirk's as Fin's is.

Iverson as a shooting guard is an anomaly. A lot of fans like his game, and he is a helluva scorer, but again, I'm not sure that he elevates his teammate's games. In fact, they have to sacrifice a lot for him to be successful, and it's not working as well this year in Philly as it did last year. I don't think I'd want to build a team around Iverson, and would probably be just as inclined to take a versatile team-oriented player like Fin.

Pierce is a good comparison. Pierce's year this year reminds me of Fin's last two. Celtics are heavily dependent on Pierce and Walker. Celt fans criticisms, in fact, are that with so much of the team's production being dependent on just these two players, the margin for error is small. If one of them is off his game, Celts have no chance. And don't even talk about one of them getting injured. So is Pierce having a superstar year because there's no one else to carry the burden? Will he maintain this level of play, and will he be able to assimilate his game into less of an individual game (as I think Finley has done) and more into a team game as the Celts upgrade their personnel? Remains to be seen. But yes, for this year, he's having a better year than Fin.

The other players you mention (Stackhouse, Allen, and Houston) are as you point out more or less at Fin's level, though maybe not all with the same ability to swing over and play the 3 as well as Fin.

This still puts him top 10 though, no?

MavKikiNYC · 02-18-2002, 11:41 PM

Murphy, people were whining long before I got here, about topics on which I've stated no opinion. It's not personal. Just an observation.

Realistically, the Mavericks can match up better with the Kings than the Lakers. Unless O'Neal gets hurt, or unless another team dispatches the Lakers, Mavericks are eventually gonna have to deal with O'Neal, and they should be making some personnel moves with that in mind.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 11:45 PM

yes, it is personal. please do not make it that way

and being in the top 10 at the shooting guard doesn't put you anywhere near the super star level or shouldn't get you into an all-star game (he's simply fortunate that the west is/was weak at the 2-guard).
therefore, many people on this board and other boards are overrating him unless you think the top 50 players in the NBA should be classified as superstars and/or all-stars.

grbh · 02-18-2002, 11:47 PM

I understand that to a point this is a very subjective issue. I just don't think many people ever had Finley rated as a top 5 SG. I think he is a 6,7, and i thought that is about where most people had him. This makes him a border line all star. Yet due to the 12-1 record when Fin was out, I have seen several articles which incinuate that Finley is expendable.
That view is absurd, though so is the idea that we can't trade him because he is the heart and soul of this team. I don't want to trade Fin, but ultimately this is a business. If you can improve the team by trading Fin then do it. I don't think you can, but that is a whole other matter.

Bayliss · 02-18-2002, 11:54 PM

<< That view is absurd, though so is the idea that we can't trade him because he is the heart and soul of this team. I don't want to trade Fin, but ultimately this is a business. If you can improve the team by trading Fin then do it. I don't think you can, but that is a whole other matter. >>

Sums up the argument nicely, but I disagree with the sentiment that a trade will not improve the Mavs. I believe a trade will improve the Mavs... depending on the player(s) we get in return.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 11:58 PM

GRBH, it has been my opinion for about a year and a half or so that the mavs should look and see what they could get for fin. No, it didn't all of a sudden come about when the mavs won 12 of 13 without him.

and all anyone is saying is that we see is available for fin.. not that you go out and just offer fin for a bunch of crap....

yes, there are trades that could help the mavs that involve fin..if they do, you pull the trigger.

yeah..i also have him in the 6-8 range..probably closer to 7-8..to me, i don't see that as being a star..that's just my definition..and many people have said before that he's a top 10 guy..in my opinion..that's overrating....

MFFL · 02-19-2002, 12:02 AM

This came from fish's website

>As we’ve covered before, if a swap of Finley makes Dallas obviously better – bigger, faster, stronger, better in any substantial way – bring it on. Loyalty is meant for children to their mothers, for dogs to their masters, and for basketball teams to their fans. The best kind of loyalty to Mavs fans would be a trade that makes Dallas an even stronger contender. So don’t believe anybody’s “untouchable’’ take, either. <

That's all we're saying. If a trade is there that will IMPROVE the Mavs - do it.

MavKikiNYC · 02-19-2002, 12:11 AM

Hmm....loyalty also affects team chemistry, and the what the Mavericks have going right now is one of the best I've seen in a long time. Certainly the best ever for the Mavs.

Yeah, trades are always a reality. But only one that clearly makes the team better, and that results in a net increase in production. Not just a lateral move or a reshuffling of the deck.

Finley for Rose? No way.

Finley for Wallace? Tampoco.

Any others? Maybe.

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 12:13 AM

sorry, but i don't think moving finley would have a negative affect on team chemistry. I believe the heart of the team, dirk and nash, will be able to hold the team together..

fin for wallace..i believe it would make the team better....and i believe team chemistry would be helped..the mavs would actually have a bit of an emotional fireball..i see that as a possible huge plus

MavKikiNYC · 02-19-2002, 12:15 AM

Murphy, your pride is rising, but your credibility is sinking with that kind of talk.

MavKikiNYC · 02-19-2002, 12:20 AM

You think Dirk or Shawn are gonna mind any less than Sabonis did when Wallace threw a towel in his face in the huddle of a nationally televised playoff game?

How does Nellie look Bradley in the face for complaining needlessly about calls if Wallace is getting thrown out of a playoff game for trying to stare down Ron Garretson?

How does the team keep from walking on eggs during any game when Wallace has shown himself to be capable of getting ejected any time any place?

How does any of this help team chemistry?

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 12:20 AM

no, my credibility isn't sinking.

I'm sorry kiki, but you are thinking with your heart instead of thinking objectively and your taking the comments about finley way too seriously.

and i don't know what that's directed only towards me since everyone else that has posted besides you ...they've been in agreement with me

MavKikiNYC · 02-19-2002, 12:25 AM

Just curious to know on what basis you're thinking team chemistry would be improved by Walllace's addition and Finley's subtraction. That's all.

grbh · 02-19-2002, 12:25 AM

MURPHY, I guess the intention of my post has been lost. It is not meant to be accusational toward you, but rather the media. I agree with you for the most part on Fin. I think he is about the 6th best player in his league at his position. Very Very Solid. If you could trade him for something to improve then do it. Unfortunately, I don't think you can get a ton in return for him, or at least what we need. The type of players we need are some of the most coveted guys in the NBA. There are lots of very servicable SG just a notch or two below Finley that could had for almost nothing.
My post was meant to illustrate how the media all jump on a bandwagon, which in this case is Finley. The story gets recycled by lazy journalists. It is kind of like the telephone game we all played as a kid.

Here's a scenario:
Mavs win 12/13 with Finley out

Journalist 1: Probably writes a nice piece about how the Mavs are still winning without Finley. He says that Fin is one of the top SG in the league, but not in the same boat with the Kobes, T Macs, etc. of the world. Maybe they should see what they could get for them to improve the team. A good article in my opinion.

Journalist 2: Writes a similar article, but mentions that Finley is injury prone. This really did happen. I wish I could remeber where I read this.

Journalist 3: Writes similar article, and now Finley throws up more bad shots than anyone in the league

And so it goes, and so it goes....

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 12:26 AM

the team needs a fiery person.

i think wallace could be the guy..i also think that playing in a different situation would be good for wallace.
does that statement help for me to lose more credibility?

i'm sorry, but i think trading finley for a guy that can be a huge help inside is somethign the mavs have to look in to.

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 12:30 AM

i'm sorry..i just think this team is built upon strong willed players that put basketball first.
i don't see chemistry being an issue.
that's all

i see the leaders as two strong willed young men in nash and dirk... and i see the team following them.

I guess i give the other players more credit than you do. I guess i actually believe that they aren't just gonna have all kinds of problems and attitude issues just because of the guy that used to be the heart and the soul was hypothetically traded.

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 12:31 AM

and grbh..that's fine...i know what you mean.

i never thought i'd take so much crap for saying the mavs should see what they can get for finley..or for saying that they need someone on there team that is fiery...

Joe Joe · 02-19-2002, 01:28 AM

Did you say all you wanted to say in the 3 consecutive posts Murphy3? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

TheKid · 02-19-2002, 10:24 AM

Actually Murph, not too many people are giving you crap, it seems that people seem to agree. Well that's opinions and there's nothing wrong with opinions. However after a year or two if the Mavs do NOT win a championship or even get to one, I want to see how many of you will be talking about getting rid of Dirk or Nash? If the team does not elevate past the level we are on who on this board will want to get rid of them? I guarantee it won't be the people who are talking about getting rid of Fin....

Now as far as listening to trades, I don't see ANYTHING wrong with that, NOTHING AT ALL, because if something comes up that sounds good, you go for it. HOWEVER to just say, one of the players who HAS BEEN THE CORNERSTONE of your franchise is on the block when the team is at it's highest level it has been for some years is sick.

If you all are real Mavs fans as you claim, they stuck with Blackman, Harper, Davis, Donaldson until they were all at the end of their career. I'm sorry Finley is NOT at the end of his career, contrary to what you all may thing. That's what I expect out of the Mavericks organization, not this stuff about getting rid of a guy who finally decided to take a rest after more than 600 games in a row. I see why he never wanted to get a rest...

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 01:10 PM

joe joe..in all due respect, please do not try and start crap.

and thekid, i know finley isn't at the end of his career..but i don't think he'll ever be at the level he was a couple of years ago.... and i think it is wise to listen to what other teams would offer for him

however, i have a feeling that other teams would offer alot less than what we are thinking..unless they are simply trying to unload someone

Joe Joe · 02-19-2002, 01:18 PM

Simmer down Murphy3, I wasn't trying to start anything just was trying to see if you said everything you wanted to. I didn't want it to be a 4th spot coming up and I replied before you had a chance to post it buddy. That's all, sorry if I offended you man. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

TheKid · 02-19-2002, 03:30 PM

You're right he probably won't be where he was a few years ago, BUT that doesn't mean he's easily replaced either.

Joe Joe · 02-19-2002, 03:35 PM

I agree here TheKid, I can see if the Mavs were upgrading significantly ut just making a trade for the heck of it is not good. Finley still has quite a bit more value than you see obviously Murpy. You cannot replace the guy real easy and there will be alot of unhappy fans around Dallas too. After the guy was loyal and signed a long term contract you trade him, or even think about trading him in the 1st year of it?

TheKid · 02-19-2002, 05:38 PM

That's my point Joe Joe... I think there is SOME level of loyalty a team should show the players.

seelenjaeger · 02-19-2002, 07:29 PM

Murph, I do agree on some things.

1) Fin is no superstar.
2) Fin is no top 5 guard in this league.
3) SG is the position easiest be overrated at.

I do not agree at others:

1) Trading for Wallace making the Mavs a better team.
2) Trading Finley not affecting the Mavs lockerroom.
3) Stackhouse beeing better than Finley.

I´d trade Fin in a sec for one of the following scenarios

1) Tim Duncan
2) Alonzo Mourning and Eddie Jones
3) Ray Allen

I do think those 3 scenarios are about as unlikely as undenieable good for us, though well ...

Answering the question of Fin beeing overrated or not, the answer is
Sometimes.

Comments?