Darren Collison discussion thread

[Fragism]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

This isn't exactly fair either, Barea had a super slow start that season, and Collison actually started this season great, and produced nice numbers, on nice efficiency in the first 5 games. Anyway, Collison is a better player, unfortunately, that still don't mean much. They are both terrible (and net negative) as starting point guards for a playoff team.

I think you missed my point which was that 14 games isn't enough to judge how a player will look for the rest of the season.

Barea looked like garbage for 14 games at the start of the season and then was a bright spot by the playoffs.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Fragism

I think you missed my point which was that 14 games isn't enough to judge how a player will look for the rest of the season.

Barea looked like garbage for 14 games at the start of the season and then was a bright spot by the playoffs.

Yep, probably. I agree with you. Although, i guess then it's actually not a good sign that Collison started out this season great.

[redzwestisbest]

This is unfortunately why Pacers gave up on Collison. In today's NBA you have to be at least a decent shooter or at least be able to draw fouls, get layups, etc. His peak is what we see. Not a great shooter, gambles alot on defense, good ball handler, and sometimes disappears. He tries to do too much. He isn't that kind of player, he needs to just be a ball handler/distributor and again in today's nba, that is bench worthy. I still think he could work, but he will need to find a way to shoot a little better and not be so dumb on defense.

The Mavs had to try him out, but realistically, Delonte West and Ian would have fit better with the Mavs for the whole season. They had to trade Ian because they didn't want to pay him.

I truly believe the Mavs could have been 9-6 or better if they just simply kept Delonte West over anyone else on the roster as the first guard off the bench playing 25 mpg instead of having DoJo/Roddy/etc. They really could use someone they could rely on when healthy.

[EricaLubarsky]

So how about we compare JJB without Dirk and a championship team to Collison instead.You can argue that playing with Dirk and a championship team is the real reason that stats are silly, but it's hard to argue that the Timberwolves last year had a better team than the Mavericks have this year.

Collison 2013 vs. JJB 2012 (Wolves)
45.6/ 46.3 eFG%
33.3/33.3 clutch eFG%
8.6/10.8AP48
3.5/4.8 TOp48
2.6/2.3 A/TO ratio
3.2/5.3 Rp48
7.0/11.3 pass rating
6.6/10.7 rebound rating
16.8/22.8 "hands" rating (a measure of bad passes, TOs, etc)
-1.6/0.2 net PER (player production minus opposing player's PER)

JJB is still better in ball handling, passing, rebounding and better at defending or outperforming opposing PGs (as well as FG%, and rebounding/assist rate. Is he the better player? Again, I'm not saying that, but this data isolates the variable (Dirk and the "champsionship team") that you are claiming is nullifying data to the point that we can't draw comparisons. Even when you take the "Dirkfactor" away, JJB is still comparable. If you look at other seasons from Collison, the data is even more stark in comparison.

So, to win the argument that it's "absurd" to compare the two, I think you not only need to answer that data and also provide a reason that it's not only not true but there is actually reason to believe that any comparison is silly.

And I like your thinking on the early stats-- nice stats. I still don't think those numbers make it-- in your words--, "absurd" to compare the two and I'll even let you compare JJB's biggest slump of his career to Collison's freakishly good start. Compare the two stats that I was most concerned with (ballhandling/passing/defense) and you still get a pretty even playing field and not the stuff of absurdity.

[EricaLubarsky]

Well, Carlisle may agree. Collison is now a bench player for at least a game.

[sefant77]

If you want to compare them then take Bareas nine game stretch when Dirk was injuried in january 2011 and we went 2-7.

Team was the same mess back then...

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by sefant77

If you want to compare them then take Bareas nine game stretch when Dirk was injuried in january 2011 and we went 2-7.

Team was the same mess back then...

We didn't have nearly the supporting offensive cast then (Mayo/Kaman/Carter) beats Terry/Carter, but I think that that is a great analogy.

[dude1394]

The thing I saw from JJB (version 2) that I'm not seeing from collison is:
- Relentless lane penetration
- A much more physical presence, even if he is small. He's willing to get physical with guys offensively and defensively.
- Much more clever around the basket.
- Appears to be a heck of a better shooter.

So I would say that jjb would be quite a step up from the collison we've seen.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The thing I saw from JJB (version 2) that I'm not seeing from collison is:
- Relentless lane penetration
- A much more physical presence, even if he is small. He's willing to get physical with guys offensively and defensively.
- Much more clever around the basket.
- Appears to be a heck of a better shooter.

So I would say that jjb would be quite a step up from the collison we've seen.

Jjb is ridiculously overrated on this board

[sike]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Jjb is ridiculously overrated on this board

This.

[dude1394]

So is Tyson, jkiddo, jet, Stevenson, Haywood, etc, etc. folks have differing views of what is important. I would swap jjb for collison right this instant and consider myself lucky.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So is Tyson, jkiddo, jet, Stevenson, Haywood, etc, etc. folks have differing views of what is important. I would swap jjb for collison right this instant and consider myself lucky.

That would be a mistake

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I would swap jjb for collison right this instant and consider myself lucky.

Crazy how much people have shat on JJB on this board. I remember when 95% of the board wanted Roddy to play over him. He'd be an instant upgrade on this team as a backup PG.

[sike]

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/1...=iref:nbahpt6f

DALLAS – Darren Collison resumed the season as Derek Fisher‘s backup, a coaching decision he doesn’t like, but will have to live with.

Collison, benched Tuesday night after 14 games, said he didn’t receive a fair shot as the Dallas Mavericks’ starting point guard.

“I don’t think so, and we all know that; my teammates, they feel the same way, everybody feels the same way,” Collison said prior to Saturday night’s game against the Detroit Pistons. He made his first appearance midway through the first quarter and finished with five points and eight assists in 27 minutes.

“But, at the end of the day, coach, he makes the decision,” Collison said. “There’s nothing you can do about it but go out there and do your job.”

The Mavs went 7-7 with Collison running the point. He started the season on fire, leading an up-tempo attack and Dallas to a 4-1 record. He’s struggled since with a flat jumper and too many turnovers, as well as with individual defensive matchups.

Coach Rick Carlisle, apparently had seen enough and benched Collison Tuesday at Philadelphia, and then Collison missed Wednesday’s game at Chicago with a sprained right middle finger. It was Dallas’ third consecutive loss and its eighth in the last 11 games.

On Friday, Dallas signed Fisher to take over as the team’s starting point guard. Carlisle called the acquisition “a great situation” for Collison because the fourth-year point guard out of UCLA will be able to learn under the 38-year-old veteran, owner of five championship rings with the Lakers.

Collison said he’d prefer to learn through playing.

“I feel like at this point in my career, if there’s anything I need to learn it’s just go out there on the court and just learn from my mistakes,” Collison said. “That’s what a lot of young guards do, you go out there, you learn from your mistakes. As far as Derek Fisher, I think I can learn from him. He’s a great leader on and off the court. I’m looking forward to playing with him.”

Fisher hasn’t played since Game 5 of the last June’s NBA Finals with the Oklahoma City Thunder. He remained unsigned until Friday and went through one practice with his new Dallas teammates. Depending on Fisher’s conditioning, Collison could still be called on to play starter-type minutes.

Still, Collison didn’t hide the frustration of losing his job before December. It’s the second time in eight months that he’s dealt with moving to the bench. He lost his starting job at Indiana to George Hill after a late-season injury, a scenario Collison said was easier to swallow than this performance-based demotion.

“This is a little bit unique because I’ve never had a situation like this before,” Collison said. “I got hurt before, but not this type of situation. I know how to deal with it. I’ll be all right.”

When Dallas made the July trade with Indiana to get Collison, 25, they quickly tabbed him as Jason Kidd‘s replacement in the starting lineup. Carlisle said he has told Collison that he remains a major part of the team’s plans.

“Darren’s still one of our best players and I’ve made that clear to him,” Carlisle said. “One of the reasons we’ve had success here in recent years is we’ve had starting-caliber players playing off the bench. There are areas where Darren’s going to get better. I see him as a guy who is still developing and I can’t imagine a better situation for a point guard than being at practice every day with Derek Fisher.”

Collison is averaging 12.9 points on 43.8 percent shooting (31.6 percent on 3s), 6.3 assists and 2.5 turnovers. All 14 of his starts came without the benefit of Dirk Nowitzki, who remains out after knee surgery on Oct. 19.

“I’m mentally tough,” Collison said. “I think I’ve been through everything throughout my whole career. I pretty much know how to deal with adversity pretty well. As long as I don’t let it affect me than I should be all right.”

[sike]

I mentioned this a couple weeks ago, but I'm a little concerned that Carlisle has taken this hardline approach with Collison that may actually damage the kid's potential with the Mavs. I'm not saying that DC shouldn't be mentally tough, but from things that I've read, heard Rick say, and seen...Rick has been hard on the kid.

I wonder if he is being too hard on him. I know Rick isn't known for his soft touch, but I wonder if he might get more with at least a little less vinegar if not a little honey.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by sike

I mentioned this a couple weeks ago, but I'm a little concerned that Carlisle has taken this hardline approach with Collison that may actually damage the kid's potential with the Mavs. I'm not saying that DC shouldn't be mentally tough, but from things that I've read, heard Rick say, and seen...Rick has been hard on the kid.

I wonder if he is being too hard on him. I know Rick isn't known for his soft touch, but I wonder if he might get more with at least a little less vinegar if not a little honey.

That's something Cuban would talk to him about if it really was an issue. This could be a case where Fisher could be the good cop. He can easily take that role on. But hey, if you're going to be an elite PG, you've gotta take tough criticism and be ready to roll on to the next one.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's something Cuban would talk to him about if it really was an issue. This could be a case where Fisher could be the good cop. He can easily take that role on. But hey, if you're going to be an elite PG, you've gotta take tough criticism and be ready to roll on to the next one.

I'm not saying that Rick is doing anything morally wrong, but wondering if he might get more out of the kid by taking a less hardline approach. (Rick might be lovey dovey with the kid behind closed doors.....but I kinda doubt it.)

Collison certainly needs to have tough skin.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by sike

I'm not saying that Rick is doing anything morally wrong, but wondering if he might get more out of the kid by taking a less hardline approach. (Rick might be lovey dovey with the kid behind closed doors.....but I kinda doubt it.)

Collison certainly needs to have tough skin.

He's said on multiple occasions that he loves him as a person and let's him know that. They have a good line of communication. It's just up to Collison working on himself.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

He's said on multiple occasions that he loves him as a person and let's him know that. They have a good line of communication. It's just up to Collison working on himself.

That cool to know about Carlilse's feelings about DC as a person.

But its your opinion that Rick couldn't possibly be take the wrong approach w a player?

[jthig32]

I agree with Sike; I'm concerned about this relationship. I love Rick, but he's inconsistent in what he expects out of his players. Troy Murphy is force fed minutes while absolutely killing the team for large stretches, while Collison is yanked all over the place any time he makes a mistake.

It has to be especially frustrating for Collison because he had the same situation last year, and I assume he thought he was going to get a little more leash on a team like this before he started getting sent to the bench for every mistake.

And as Sike said, it's not that I feel sorry for Collison. In fact, I think he needs to adjust his attitude and stop acting like being brought off the bench is the same as actually being benched. But I do, like Sike, question whether this is really the best approach in this situation.

[sike]

For example, I don't like seeing DC saying that he isn't getting a fair shake to be the starting PG in Dallas. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/1...=iref:nbahpt6f

[BGMaverick9]

Like I said, this can be a spot where Fisher can help be that buffer. The problem is, Fisher is probably going to be tough on him, as well. I mean he's called him an above average player on multiple occasions in the few days he's been in town. I'm doubting Darren wants to hear himself classified as that. To this point, Fisher has followed that up with good words of wisdom. Collison just has to learn.

What the Mavericks want to do is have him learn through being taught and watching rather just having him try to do it on the run. They're trying to win games and stay afloat. They figured they couldn't afford to let Dojo and Roddy keep things going while Darren goes through his growing pains. They're hoping Fisher can bring the calming influence on the court (which it appears can happen), and have Darren see how it goes and then transfer that into his game, while still being aggressive.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Like I said, this can be a spot where Fisher can help be that buffer. The problem is, Fisher is probably going to be tough on him, as well. I mean he's called him an above average player on multiple occasions in the few days he's been in town. I'm doubting Darren wants to hear himself classified as that. To this point, Fisher has followed that up with good words of wisdom. Collison just has to learn.

What the Mavericks want to do is have him learn through being taught and watching rather just having him try to do it on the run. They're trying to win games and stay afloat. They figured they couldn't afford to let Dojo and Roddy keep things going while Darren goes through his growing pains. They're hoping Fisher can bring the calming influence on the court (which it appears can happen), and have Darren see how it goes and then transfer that into his game, while still being aggressive.

Fingers Crossed

[dude1394]

Carlisle is tough on collison, Carlisle is tough on roddy, Carlisle is tough it appears on everyone. Whether they can take it and get better tells what they've got in the gut.

If not, get em outta here, they'll just let you down when the heat is on.

[roadrunner]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Carlisle is tough on collison, Carlisle is tough on roddy, Carlisle is tough it appears on everyone. Whether they can take it and get better tells what they've got in the gut.

If not, get em outta here, they'll just let you down when the heat is on.

This exactly. Players that are mentally weak during not so tough moments will be even weaker during the toughest of moments on the court when you are depending on them most. Ergo, its best to not depend on them if at all possible. I dont have any first hand knowledge but I see the reasons for DC or any other player on this team that is getting yanked boils down to lack of execution of the gameplan and/or not working on what coach is asking them to work on. I dont think RC is perfect but he has earned the benefit of the doubt on this one from my looking in from the outside perspective.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Carlisle is tough on collison, Carlisle is tough on roddy, Carlisle is tough it appears on everyone. Whether they can take it and get better tells what they've got in the gut.

If not, get em outta here, they'll just let you down when the heat is on.

I don't believe in this. Not every player has the same mentality. The best coaches feel what will make a player better, and go on that route. That can be different with any player. Some player needs to hear it, you need to be tough on them, but some player needs nurturing, and they need to feel they can make a mistake, and then, and only then they will produce to the best of their abilities. No coach will bring out the best from every one of their players, especially the young ones, but Carlisle is especially bad at this, and has a track record, as a bad developmental coach. With winning the 'ship though, none of this matters much anymore, he certainly deserves his pass, and i won't really worry about any of that developmental stuff, unless we somehow get a top 3 pick and he's still our coach.

[roadrunner]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I don't believe in this. Not every player has the same mentality. The best coaches feel what will make a player better, and go on that route. That can be different with any player. Some player needs to hear it, you need to be tough on them, but some player needs nurturing, and they need to feel they can make a mistake, and then, and only then they will produce to the best of their abilities. No coach will bring out the best from every one of their players, especially the young ones, but Carlisle is especially bad at this, and has a track record, as a bad developmental coach. With winning the 'ship though, none of this matters much anymore, he certainly deserves his pass, and i won't really worry about any of that developmental stuff, unless we somehow get a top 3 pick and he's still our coach.

There is plenty of merit to handling and motivating different players in different ways. But, lets not pretend that RC is always being tough on them for mistakes and jerking certain players out of the game every time they make a mistake. We have no idea, unless u are part of the org, how much nurturing RC has done outside of the spotlght of the games. I certainly presume there is a mixture of nurturing and toughness. So, when a player reacts negatively to toughness i see that as a weakness that would only get worse when that player runs into adversity on the court. Under this scenario it's these kind of players that will do much more harm than good toward the goal of winning.

[grndmstr_c]

Two thoughts:

- It wouldn't surprise me if some of DC's residual anger over this is coming from the fact that he originally lost his starting job to DoJo. And maybe that's a good thing, in so far as it serves to blunt any resentment that might otherwise be directed at Derek. Regardless, I think DC will still get his minutes (DoJo being DoJo and Booby apparently being stuck on the shelf unless/until he gets fully healthy), and that he'll refocus sooner than later on the pride he'll be able to take in the second unit stretching leads and turning rough starts around, which they'll be in a better position to do once Dirk gets back and sets the rotations aright.

- As for Troy being an example of Rick's inconsistent expectations, I have to disagree. Troy wasn't able to make his shots in Dallas, but I consistently saw him playing hard and playing with his head in the game. Rick's been very consistent in wanting that from his players, and DC hasn't always played to that standard. Rick isn't above scrutiny when it comes to the methods that he employs in developing young PGs, or his insistence on preserving continuity of the offensive system by giving minutes to stretch 4s with average or sub-par productivity, but I don't think the exact criticism in question here is justified. On the contrary, I see the fact that Troy got PT in spite of his limitations as something that should be a pretty clear example for the young guys of what's expected of them.

[j0Shi]

Can fully understand DCs frustration about the Fisher-move. I also originally thought that they hit the panic button a bit early. The team was bound to hover around .500 without Dirk anyway and against the soft schedule you could have hoped for 1-2 more wins at best. That said, maybe we would have signed Fisher anyway and the starting gig is just situational.

The whole situation also confirms my overall sentiment that Rick is just a tad too inflexible in adjusting to a player. He wants certain things out of certain players in certain situations: Do that and you'll play, otherwise sit. I always felt like Roddy has been reduced on his lack of aggression towards the basket at times when he played really solid overall. Murphy playing over Wright is another great example that still baffles me. Troy didn't rebound any better, but he can stretch the floor which is a major plus in the system. But overall Troy is not even half the player Wright is, so it's an automatic no-brainer who gets to play (normally).

Collison/Fisher fits the bill as well. Collison is not what we had in recent years: In control, orchestrating, veteran leadership. But I mean that's pretty obvious so I would have thought they altered the job description of a Mavs starting point this year. But here comes Fisher, a poor mans JKidd... (kind of).

[SMC0007]

Idk if this was discussed yet, but in talking about DC's benching and finding Coaches doghouse. I'm sure we all were thinking the same thing Carlisle was.

"There are still plenty of teaching moments with this squad; halfway into the third Collison took a pull up three pointer early in the shot clock. It rimmed out badly and the Pistons pushed the ball on the break and scored. Carlisle immediately called a time out and loudly yelled “What the heck was that?!” (He did not say heck). Collison was displeased at getting called out so vocally; he seems to grate a bit under Carlisle’s coaching, which is odd given his pedigree."

http://www.thetwomangame.com/

[sefant77]

DC has to blame himself.

All it took for him was to perform on an average level and there would be no Derek Fisher in Dallas. But since he stunk it up so much they brought him in and now DC has to suck it up...

[dude1394]

When your pg can't make an entry pass, you gotta let em go.

[LSMF]

You know it's funny but I knew it would be an issue when Derek Fisher was automatically given the Start over Collison. Collison has been inconsistent but how is it fair to just allow Fisher to start ? Fisher didn't even have to beat out Collison for the spot. I could even understand Dojo starting over DC, Dojo is 6'5 so he's much bigger and stronger than DC. And he was also hustling and bringing energy. But we hadn't even seen Fisher play but yet he was automatically given the start over Collison. I swear, RC is great at demoralizing players. What exactly does Fisher do better than Collison ? Better shooter ? (Fisher shot 37% from the floor last year). Better defender? Hmm, Fisher is strong so he can guard bigger players a bit but he really can't guard anyone that's quick. And both Fisher and Collison are 6'1 so it's not a massive difference when it comes to height. Anyway what frustrates me the most is that I'm sure even if Collison starts beasting off the bench he's still not going to be given back his starting spot.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by LSMF

You know it's funny but I knew it would be an issue when Derek Fisher was automatically given the Start over Collison. Collison has been inconsistent but how is it fair to just allow Fisher to start ? Fisher didn't even have to beat out Collison for the spot. I could even understand Dojo starting over DC, Dojo is 6'5 so he's much bigger and stronger than DC. And he was also hustling and bringing energy. But we hadn't even seen Fisher play but yet he was automatically given the start over Collison. I swear, RC is great at demoralizing players. What exactly does Fisher do better than Collison ? Better shooter ? (Fisher shot 37% from the floor last year). Better defender? Hmm, Fisher is strong so he can guard bigger players a bit but he really can't guard anyone that's quick. And both Fisher and Collison are 6'1 so it's not a massive difference when it comes to height. Anyway what frustrates me the most is that I'm sure even if Collison starts beasting off the bench he's still not going to be given back his starting spot.

We've never seen Fisher play? It's not like he's some random dude from Europe whose ability to translate his games to the NBA is in question. He's a 16-year veteran, and about as well-known a quantity as you're going to find. Doesn't mean the decision to start him was right, but it was hardly made blindly.

And personally, I think Fisher starting makes a lot more sense than DoJo even being in the rotation, much less starting out games.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

We've never seen Fisher play? It's not like he's some random dude from Europe whose ability to translate his games to the NBA is in question. He's a 16-year veteran, and about as well-known a quantity as you're going to find. Doesn't mean the decision to start him was right, but it was hardly made blindly.

And personally, I think Fisher starting makes a lot more sense than DoJo even being in the rotation, much less starting out games.

Yes, we've seen Fisher play. And he's been awful lately. He shot 37% from the field last season, and 32% from 3pt land. And he struggles guarding quick guards. I'm not even going to get into that. I just think it's wrong that Fisher should automatically be given the start over Collison, no matter how anyone tries to spin it (Not saying you're trying to spin it, GMC) . If Fisher at least had outplayed Collison for a few games I would've understood the decision. But for them to just sign him and automatically start him over DC is unacceptable to me. And this is coming from someone who's been upset at the way DC has been playing as of late.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by LSMF

Yes, we've seen Fisher play. And he's been awful lately. He shot 37% from the field last season, and 32% from 3pt land. And he struggles guarding quick guards. I'm not even going to get into that. I just think it's wrong that Fisher should automatically be given the start over Collison, no matter how anyone tries to spin it (Not saying you're trying to spin it, GMC) . If Fisher at least had outplayed Collison for a few games I would've understood the decision. But for them to just sign him and automatically start him over DC is unacceptable to me. And this is coming from someone who's been upset at the way DC has been playing as of late.

I just don't see why a few games should make that much of a difference in the evaluation of what he can do for the team when we're talking about a guy who's such a known quantity. And I don't think it's unfair to conclude that you seem to have found his body of work more than sufficient to make up your own mind about whether he should be starting, so what's wrong with the coaching staff making their decision based on the same available evidence?

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I just don't see why a few games should make that much of a difference in the evaluation of what he can do for the team when we're talking about a guy who's such a known quantity. And I don't think it's unfair to conclude that you seem to have found his body of work more than sufficient to make up your own mind about whether he should be starting, so what's wrong with the coaching staff making their decision based on the same available evidence?

I honestly just don't think it sends a good message. However, my biggest issue is I don't believe Collison will get his starting spot back no matter how well he plays. I guess we just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I just don't see why a few games should make that much of a difference in the evaluation of what he can do for the team when we're talking about a guy who's such a known quantity. And I don't think it's unfair to conclude that you seem to have found his body of work more than sufficient to make up your own mind about whether he should be starting, so what's wrong with the coaching staff making their decision based on the same available evidence?

When your Coach stresses that everyone should earn their keep, immediately inserting 38yr old out of work PG into the starting lineup goes against that principle. I don't have a problem with a temporary benching of Collison because his defense was horrendous, but 14 games is too small of a sample size to give him a demoted role. I do agree with LSMF that if Collison does play well he still won't get the starting job back.

PS
This conversation might for naught if you look at the schedule--12 of next 14 games will be against teams with very good PG's (Paul, Dragic, Lin, Rondo, Lowry, Holiday, Westbrook, Conley, Lawson, and Parker).

[dude1394]

If collison can play, well enough he should get the "ending" job. But I don't think he has enough poise but well find out.

[EricaLubarsky]

When a guy is consistently your worst +/- guy, dude just shouldn't play. I was so wrong about this idiot. 2ast, 5TO and -24-- which is smashing something with how bad the rest of our pg options are.