Mike Bibby?

[ddh33]

Trying to think of point guards the Mavs might prefer over the current crop they have is pretty difficult. But Mike Bibby is without a doubt an upgrade. Unfortunately, you would pretty much assume that he's unavailable. What if he wasn't though?

It's pretty obvious that the Kings aren't going to contend any time soon with their current personnel. Likewise, everyone knows the Maloofs are lsing money and would like to ease their expenses a bit. Bibby was just resigned recently, but that was to a contending team. Add in the whispers that he was firmly in the Webber camp against Peja, and it could make some sense if you made it worthwhile to the Kings.

Dallas trades:
Keith Van Horn
Marquis Daniels
Devin Harris

Kings trade:
Mike Bibby
Kenny Thomas
Greg Ostertag

The Mavs end up giving quite a bit of youth to get one of the best PGs in the league. They also get very needed frontcourt help in Thomas, and relieve the Kings of Ostertag.

The Kings get immediate help with salary at the end of the season with Van Horn. Daniels and Harris give them a great group to begin building around with Peja.

[The Miles]

It makes sense but I sure would hate to see my favorite player playing in Sacramento. Devin Harris could do really, really well in that system though, and I am sure he would get to play,[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Pertty good deal to be honest, Kenny Thomas would be a nice backup here. Dallas adds a little payroll but not too much, K9 replaces Quis as the 5 year contract at/around the mid level, Ostertag is a mid level expirer, and Bibby isn't MAX'd so you are getting him for what you likely have to pay Devin when it is time to extend him in 3 years. I dunno, I like it to be honest, Bibby and Jet have history and both are big game players.

PG-Mike Bibby
SG-Michael Finley
SF-Josh Howard
PF-Dirk Nowitzki
CT-Erick Dampier

6th-Jet
SG/SF-Jerry Stackhouse
PF-Kenny Thomas

That is a very, very good 8 man rotation. Add a PF/C type to it and we are in business. Good deal.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Hate to see Devin go but Bibby is a winner.

[jayC]

Peja might walk if that happens. Isn't peja free in a year.

[ddh33]

Originally posted by: jayC
Peja might walk if that happens. Isn't peja free in a year.

Good point. Of course, the Kings could try to sell him on the fact that he would be without question their franchise player, and that he had a larger window to win a title eventually with these young players.

The Kings have been looking like they were going out of their way to please Peja. I wonder how wise that is?

[dalmations202]

I'd rather see Peja in a Mavs uni than Bibby. Could they get Peja? I think that Dirk/Peja with Howard at the SG would make for a deadly combination.

[foglemann]

I just hate Bibby. He does that stupid dance after he hits a big shot, I call it the 'monkey dance'. Whatever he thinks he's doing in that dance, its just as crappy as the Walker waggle. Anyway, I don't like Bibby at all. He's a good player, but I don't trust many of those players that rely on that Princeton offense/system. There numbers are inflated because of the gimics. I'm not saying he sucks, just that I think on a real team, he becomes more average than All-Star.

My thoughts, get Peja, not Bibby. I agree with Dalmations, you would have the two best Euros on the team together and that would be awsome. If we could give them some youth, I would love that. Peja just needs a new home and Dallas could refresh his career. I think Bibby would end up hurting us in the end. If we go after a PG with a long term contract to really change things, its got to be Kidd, he's the difference maker at the point.

[Bayliss]

I'd rather have Bibby than Peja. As "bad" as Dirk played this playoffs... he still averaged 24 and 10...... Peja just doesn't do that. Give Dirk that wide open shot 4 years ago and he drills that. Peja didn't even hit rim. No thank you.

Bibby may be a defensive liability but he is a pretty good passer and he wants to shoot the ball in tough situations.

[jayC]

As for the trade, I love Mike Bibby. The dude is clutch. When the Kings nearly knocked off the Lakers a few years ago he was the sole reason they came so close.

[gnzl312]

Why does everyone wanna trade Harris?????? He is the future. I dont know what you were whatching but looking at him he seems like a special player. He is quick and pushes the ball like Nash. Give him time and he will develop in to a great PG.

[ddh33]

Originally posted by: gnzl312
Why does everyone wanna trade Harris?????? He is the future. I dont know what you were whatching but looking at him he seems like a special player. He is quick and pushes the ball like Nash. Give him time and he will develop in to a great PG.

For whatever it's worth, I have no desire to trade Harris. I actually think the kid is going to be a very good player. I just wonder if the Mavs feel the same way? I hope so...

[madape]

Originally posted by: foglemann
I just hate Bibby. He does that stupid dance after he hits a big shot, I call it the 'monkey dance'. Whatever he thinks he's doing in that dance, its just as crappy as the Walker waggle. Anyway, I don't like Bibby at all. He's a good player, but I don't trust many of those players that rely on that Princeton offense/system. There numbers are inflated because of the gimics. I'm not saying he sucks, just that I think on a real team, he becomes more average than All-Star.

My thoughts, get Peja, not Bibby. I agree with Dalmations, you would have the two best Euros on the team together and that would be awsome. If we could give them some youth, I would love that. Peja just needs a new home and Dallas could refresh his career. I think Bibby would end up hurting us in the end. If we go after a PG with a long term contract to really change things, its got to be Kidd, he's the difference maker at the point.

I couldn't agree more. Kidd would clean up this mess. He'd make us championship favorites.

[The Miles]

I don't want Peja on this team at all, not one bit. He isn't the 2nd best Euro, that is Andrie Kirilenko, and I would love to have him here because our defense gets better with him here.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: gnzl312
Why does everyone wanna trade Harris?????? He is the future. I dont know what you were whatching but looking at him he seems like a special player. He is quick and pushes the ball like Nash. Give him time and he will develop in to a great PG.

NOBODY here wants to trade Harris. Harris is practically worshipped around here. Personally I think he will be a great scorer, but no more of a point guard than Terry is. However, I think he'll easily be in the same league as guys like Tony Parker or Bibby. And personally, I don't think Bibby would be a significant upgrade over JET. Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups. This team and it's fans were simply used to having Steve Nash. That's why we had such problems at point this year; not because Terry is a bad point guard, but because we still had Nellie's overly-complicated offense. Parker looks like a great point guard because he's in charge of the simplest offense one could imagine; drive and/or give the ball to Duncan. Bibby has always had scorers around him, and the Kings have never had a really complicated offense, although it was very unique and very potent. What made the Kings so great was that they had two of the best passing big men ever in C-Webb and Vlade. Throw in a lights-out shooter like Peja, an all around solid player in Christie, and a phenominal backup in Bobby-Jax, and Bibby flourishes. And now, Sacto still has Peja, replaced Christie with a better scorer in Mobley, and the best passing center in the league now that Vlade's gone in Brad Miller. Bibby's got a great situation. Give Jet another season now that we're under AJ's system and not Nellie's and I guarantee you'll forget all that nonsense about "true" point guards.

[Arne]

"And personally, I don't think Bibby would be a significant upgrade over JET. Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups."

That's bloody hilarious...

With Chauncey Billups as our PG we would be in the damn conference-finals by now. He knows when to push the ball, when to shoot and when to pass. That's what a true point guard is all about. It's not about the f'ing stats. Watch him, just watch him...

And what should Bibby get, from having a good passer in his team? I know, his assists should go down. So what if you put im in here, I think he would get a lot more assists.

If you want to only see the stats, then here you go:

Terry in a Team that averaged 106 PPG in the playoffs: 4.6 Ast/2.43 Turnovers/17.5 Pts (which doesn't really matter if you're searching for the better true point guard)

Billups in a team that averaged only 92 PPG in the playoffs: 6.4 Ast/2.4 Turnovers/18.3 Pts.

Bibby in a team that averaged the same number of points during the playoffs, as the Mavericks: 6.6 Ast2.6 Turnovers/19.6


P.S.: Your best passing Center of the league averaged 3.2 Asts during the playoffs, while Dirk Nowitzki had 3.3...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: Arne
"And personally, I don't think Bibby would be a significant upgrade over JET. Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups."

That's bloody hilarious...

With Chauncey Billups as our PG we would be in the damn conference-finals by now. He knows when to push the ball, when to shoot and when to pass. That's what a true point guard is all about. It's not about the f'ing stats. Watch him, just watch him...

And what should Bibby get, from having a good passer in his team? I know, his assists should go down. So what if you put im in here, I think he would get a lot more assists.

If you want to only see the stats, then here you go:

Terry in a Team that averaged 106 PPG in the playoffs: 4.6 Ast/2.43 Turnovers/17.5 Pts (which doesn't really matter if you're searching for the better true point guard)

Billups in a team that averaged only 92 PPG in the playoffs: 6.4 Ast/2.4 Turnovers/18.3 Pts.

Bibby in a team that averaged the same number of points during the playoffs, as the Mavericks: 6.6 Ast2.6 Turnovers/19.6

Hey, why don't you try actually reading my post before you dish out a rude reply like that. "It's not about the f'ing stats." Where the f*ck did I say anything about stats? We all agree that JET doesn't push the ball when he should, but that's not the main reason Jet struggled at point:

originally posted byThespiralgoeson
This team and it's fans were simply used to having Steve Nash. That's why we had such problems at point this year; not because Terry is a bad point guard, but because we still had Nellie's overly-complicated offense.

That's the real reason Terry struggled. Yet you completely left that out. Stats? I never said a f*cking thing about stats. You completely mangled my post and put words in my mouth. If Bibby or Billups were put into Nellie's ridiculously complicated offense, and had spent their careers in Atlanta, having never been expected to be an actual point guard, I guarantee you, they would struggle too.

P.S.: Your best passing Center of the league averaged 3.2 Asts during the playoffs, while Dirk Nowitzki had 3.3...

Uh, last I heard, Dirk was a power forward. Can you name a better passing center than Miller? Most centers are horrible passers. The list becomes even shorter when you're talking about the playoffs. The only other two centers who can pass anywhere near as well as Miller are Shaq and Yao.

And what should Bibby get, from having a good passer in his team? I know, his assists should go down. So what if you put im in here, I think he would get a lot more assists.

Why would having a good passer on his team hurt his assist total? Having C-Webb and Vlade never hurt his assist numbers.

originally posted byThespiralgoeson
Bibby has always had scorers around him, and the Kings have never had a really complicated offense, although it was very unique and very potent.

I never said that Bibby got anything from having good passers. I said that having two great passing big men is what made the KINGS special, not Bibby himself. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but when you put words in my mouth like that, that pisses me off.

[Dalhoop]

The Mavs assists numbers this year are only down 2 APG over last years numbers with Nash (not bad for a new PG, in a new system, that is used to playing SG), by the way, the defense provided also lowered the assists by our opponents by 2 APG.

Terry is doing fine, let him play another year at point and see what he can do.

[Arne]

"We all agree that JET doesn't push the ball when he should, but that's not the main reason Jet struggled at point"

"This team and it's fans were simply used to having Steve Nash. That's why we had such problems at point this year; not because Terry is a bad point guard, but because we still had Nellie's overly-complicated offense."

I didn't see any overly-complicated offense during the playoffs. It was simply Terry not pushing the ball when he should, Terry shooting amazingly, but Terry not knowing when to penetrate (against Phoenix), and how to set up his teammates. If I'd seen a Chauncey Billups at the point, I'd be happy like hell! He knows how to organize a offense.

"If Bibby or Billups were put into Nellie's ridiculously complicated offense, and had spent their careers in Atlanta, having never been expected to be an actual point guard, I guarantee you, they would struggle too."

Jason Terry was the point guard last season with the exception of the 27 games, when Bob Sura was in town. Jason Terry was the point guard when he had Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glenn Robinson and Theo Ratliff on his side. In 2002-2003. HE WAS THE POINT GUARD ALL THE TIME. 2001-2002, 2000-2001 even 1999-2000 he did play point guard during his 25 minutes on the court.

And if you say something like on such a team nobody would pass the ball if he has a shot like Terry. Here'd be my response: In four of his five years at Atlanta he shot a lower FG-percentage then his teammates. So why shouldn't he play more of a natural point guard in Atlanta, like Brevin Knight did in Charlotte...?

And there is a reason why Billups and Bibby didn't have to spend their whole career in Atlanta...

Uh, last I heard, Dirk was a power forward. Can you name a better passing center than Miller? Most centers are horrible passers. The list becomes even shorter when you're talking about the playoffs. The only other two centers who can pass anywhere near as well as Miller are Shaq and Yao.

Yes Shaq is a surely way better passer than Miller is and I didn't mention anything about Dirk being a center in my post. The only thing I wanted to show, is that Terry had a passer like Miller as well on his team and Brad Miller doesn't play like a center anyways... He standing near the free-Trowline passing the ball around and taking the open jumper. He's superb at that. Btu he isn't passing is like Shaq from the center-position... And if you look at Shaq you can see that Miller isn't the best passing center in the league today.

"Why would having a good passer on his team hurt his assist total? Having C-Webb and Vlade never hurt his assist numbers."

In Vancouver he (Bibby) averaged 8 APG. As soon as he played with the passing big men Webber and Divac he couldn't dish out more than 5.4 APG anymore. Now that the're gone he is on his way back and had 6.8 Assists this season. Oh, by the way Divac is a better passer than Miller as well. And more of a pure center as well...

So after all your points, I'm asking the question why would you say something like:

"Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups."

The only reason for that could be the stats, because they look pretty equal in the beginning, I mean only 1.5 APG or so... So that's how I came to the conclusion. The simple fact that Terry couldn't controll the pace, didn't know when to pass and when to drive, and how to find the open man during the playoffs stays and whatever you want to say, it's clearly wrong to consider Billups or Bibby equal as pure point guards to Terry who is a f'ing shooting-point-guard.

[Thespiralgoeson]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Arne

"This team and it's fans were simply used to having Steve Nash. That's why we had such problems at point this year; not because Terry is a bad point guard, but because we still had Nellie's overly-complicated offense."

I didn't see any overly-complicated offense during the playoffs. It was simply Terry not pushing the ball when he should, Terry shooting amazingly, but Terry not knowing when to penetrate (against Phoenix), and how to set up his teammates. If I'd seen a Chauncey Billups at the point, I'd be happy like hell! He knows how to organize a offense.

Actually, we DID have Nellie's system all season long, including the playoffs. You didn't see it during the playoffs because the Nelson offense doesn't work without Nelson, and moreso, without Steve Nash.

Jason Terry was the point guard last season with the exception of the 27 games, when Bob Sura was in town. Jason Terry was the point guard when he had Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glenn Robinson and Theo Ratliff on his side. In 2002-2003. HE WAS THE POINT GUARD ALL THE TIME. 2001-2002, 2000-2001 even 1999-2000 he did play point guard during his 25 minutes on the court.

Jason Terry was the point guard in Atlanta in name only. That organization isn't and never has been interested in winning. This season was basically his rookie season at point. In Atlanta, he was never coached, or asked, or expected to set up his teammates.

Yes Shaq is a surely way better passer than Miller is and I didn't mention anything about Dirk being a center in my post. The only thing I wanted to show, is that Terry had a passer like Miller as well on his team and Brad Miller doesn't play like a center anyways... He standing near the free-Trowline passing the ball around and taking the open jumper. He's superb at that. Btu he isn't passing is like Shaq from the center-position... And if you look at Shaq you can see that Miller isn't the best passing center in the league today.

I agree that Miller doesn't play like a center, but I don't agree that Shaq is a "way" better passer. Better, possibly, but certainly not "way" better. Remember last year, he and Vlade averaged more assists between them than most back-courts, although he was playing the bulk of his minutes at 4 because C-Webb was injured.

Oh, by the way Divac is a better passer than Miller as well. And more of a pure center as well.

No disagreement there, but you apparently didn't read where I said "Now that Vlade is gone." He's retiring this season, so, by default, Miller is arguably the best passing center in league. At the very least, he's one of the two best passing centers.

So after all your points, I'm asking the question why would you say something like:

"Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups."

The only reason for that could be the stats, because they look pretty equal in the beginning, I mean only 1.5 APG or so... So that's how I came to the conclusion. The simple fact that Terry couldn't controll the pace, didn't know when to pass and when to drive, and how to find the open man during the playoffs stays and whatever you want to say, it's clearly wrong to consider Billups or Bibby equal as pure point guards to Terry who is a f'ing shooting-point-guard.

Terry is not a shooting-guard; he's too small. Yes, he needs to learn how to push the ball, that's it. He's as good a passer as Bibby or Billups, and better than Parker. And you need to learn how to use the quote feature.

[The Miles]

Jet did average 6 apg as the starter.

[KFunk]

I just read in the Sacramento Bee that the Kings want to keep their core of Bibby Peja and Miller. Doubt he's going anywhere.

[Arne]

Originally posted by: The Miles
Jet did average 6 apg as the starter.

What about the post season...?

[DubOverdose]

Originally posted by: Arne

What about the post season...?

Its obvious you hate Terry. When he has bright spots, you just bring up something negative. Only thing Bibby would do is bring more name recognition and points. I don't think he's any better than Terry at running an offense.

[dirno2000]

There's no question that Bibby is a better PG then Terry...always has been. There's a reason that Bibby ran the offense at AZ while JT was the designated shooter off the bench. Bibby's assists totals suffered because he played in the Princeton offense with Webber and Valde, but look at his numbers in Vancouver...he was over 8 assists per game in his 2nd and 3rd seasons.

Beyond the numbers, they both make big shots. What sets Bibby apart the fact that he's one of the better pick and roll PG's in the league and he makes better decisions on the break.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Bibby is certainly a better player than Terry. My point however, was that I don't think having him here would make the team much better. He'd be an upgrade over Terry, but not a significant upgrade. Not that it matters anyway, because he's staying in Sacramento.

[aexchange]

bibby would be an upgrade on offense, but he is absolutely positively atrocious. i mean incredibly abysmal. steve nash terrible on defense.

i think as in most cases, we think the grass is always greener on the other side. terry isnt the ideal PG that we need, but he's better than any other obtainable alternative at this point.

billups is a nice combo guard, but it was just a few years ago that billups had the same criticism that terry had. he was a shoot first guard who rarely passed. fortunately, brown was able to reign that in and he's become a decent playmaker.

he's a little overrated, although he'd be an upgrade defensively.

[Arne]

First of all: I Don't hate Jason Terry! I think he's a great player for us to come off the bench and bring in some NVE-type of play.

@Thespiral

"Bibby is certainly a better player than Terry. My point however, was that I don't think having him here would make the team much better. He'd be an upgrade over Terry, but not a significant upgrade. Not that it matters anyway, because he's staying in Sacramento."

All of a sudden... That's quiete a turnaround considering you wrote this a couple of posts before:

"Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups."

@Aexchange

"he's [Terry] a little overrated, although he'd be an upgrade defensively."

Com'on, he's putting up better assist-numbers while playing on a team that averages 14 points less than we do...

And I really like Terry in crunchtime - with exception of his defense on Steve [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] -, but Chauncey Billups is the prince of crunchtime... He's decided so many games this far and I can't even remember how often he made the game winning shot (or shots, considering that he's decided a larg number of games by getting to the line and making his freethrows), anymore.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: Arne
First of all: I Don't hate Jason Terry! I think he's a great player for us to come off the bench and bring in some NVE-type of play.

@Thespiral

"Bibby is certainly a better player than Terry. My point however, was that I don't think having him here would make the team much better. He'd be an upgrade over Terry, but not a significant upgrade. Not that it matters anyway, because he's staying in Sacramento."

All of a sudden... That's quiete a turnaround considering you wrote this a couple of posts before:

"Jet has gotten so much flack for not being a "true" point guard, but frankly the guy isn't any less of a point guard than guys like Bibby, Parker, or Chauncey Billups."

Uh, could you please show me where I said that Terry was as good as Bibby? I said he "isn't any less of a point guard." My point was that Terry doesn't have any more of a "shoot first" mentality than does Bibby, Parker, or Billups. That's hardly saying that he's as good as Bibby. And again, you really need to learn how to use the quote.

[sike]

would the kings trade the bibby? and if so....for what?

[LRB]

Originally posted by: sike
would the kings trade the bibby? and if so....for what?

Well they'd definitely trade Bibby for Dirk, but I'd shoot Cuban if he made that trade. Probably anyother trade the Kings would be willing to do for Bibby would require us giving up far to much.

Honestly, we're not that far from being a championship team. Can't see mortgaging the farm to get a Bibby.