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Old 06-12-2005, 12:00 AM   #1
The Miles
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Default Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Dallas Mavericks trade:

Erick Dampier ($7,875,000)
Marquis Daniels ($5,390,000)
Shawn Bradley ($4,500,000)
Josh Howard ($873,880)
Total: $18,638,880 (can take back up to $21,534,712)

Philadelphia 76ers trade:

Jamal Mashburn ($10,075,000)
Samuel Dalembert ($8,000,000)
Andre Iguodala ($2,058,000)
Total: $20,133,000 (to Dallas)
Total: $16,133,000 (can take back up to $18,652,950)

Iguodala for Josh Howard isn't a downgrade, could very well be an upgrade. You trade Dampier for Dalembert but since the difference in age is seven years, 30 to 23, you have to pay with some talent in Marquis Daniels. Philly takes Marquis because they are looking for a tall PG type to allow Iverson to play the SG too, you know the deal there. Bradley is simple filler and trust me, I tried it with Wahad but it won't work at anything less than offering Dalembert the MAX which no one wants to do.

Dalembert is signed for $8,000,000 1st year, $1,000,000 more than what Dampier got. Depending on how long it is, it can be four totals for Dalembert:

6 years (10%)=$60,000,000
6 years (12.5%)=$63,000,000
7 years (10%)=$72,800,000 (200k less than Dampier)
7 years (12.5%)=$77,000,000 (four more than Dampier)

Why are there 2 totals under Philly?

Because Dalembert will be base year when he signs that contract, ie he will be coming to us at $8,000,000 but leaving Philly at $4,000,000.

Anyways, we get 7 years younger at C and get a guy that dropped 12/12 on Ben Wallace in the playoffs this year. So, yes, it costs us Marquis, but we still have Jet, Devin, Fin, Stack, and Iggy.
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Old 06-12-2005, 12:18 AM   #2
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

So that would give us:
Terry/Harris
Fin/Stack
Iguodala/Stack
Dirk/KVH
Dalembert/???

Nope. Don't like it. Still have the same problem we have now, no backup center, so I see it as at best a sidestep and at worst a needless sacrifice of our depth.
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:08 AM   #3
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

I'd be more concerned about losing Josh than Marquis..!
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:46 AM   #4
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Aside from maybe getting a little younger, I fail to see how this makes the team better. The only real benefit I see in this is getting rid of Dampier's contract. I love Dalembert and Iggy, but I have too much faith in Josh and too much hope for Marquis to get rid of them. And as GC pointed out, it still leaves us without a backup center.
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:54 AM   #5
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

No, at best it looks like a lateral move and probably takes us a few steps backwards forcing us to rebuild yet again. Reward is far too low for the risk IMO.
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:06 AM   #6
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Fair enough, thanks for the feedback. We would save roughly $28,000,000 in cash so Cuban might use the MLE, I am not sure if he will (or should) this year. I think more of Dalembert than Dampier, what he did to the Pistons just confirmed it to me. I also think a lot of Iguodala, not sure what you guys think, I look at Josh and Iggy as basically the same player, both studs. Bradley is nothing to me, he shouldn't play and I doubt he does if we keep him.

What this does is give us the MLE to use and a better market to look into. It is a lot harder to find that young, athletic C that the team needs when those guys (Dalembert, Chandler, Kwame, Gadzuric) are going to demand more than the MLE, or at worst (with Kwame and Gadz), the MLE while the team that had them still has their rights since they are RFAs. By getting one of them as our starting center, we now look at veteran bigs to get as we kind of reversed our position at C. To me, it is much easier to attack the Zos and Mutombos in free agency then it is the Gadzurics and Kwames, as those guys aren't restricted and won't be around too long so that when DJ, or Pavel, blossom they can't have their spots in the rotation.

I dunno, in the end, I think (salaries aside) that Dampier and Quis for Dalembert and cut salary is a fair deal. Anyways, thanks for the feedback.
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:20 AM   #7
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Whether we do or don't use the MLE totally depends on the talent available not on whether we can clear cap. Even if we cleared cap, Cubes won't spring for the MLE on talent he feels doesn't significantly help us. And even without clearing cap, Cubes will spring for the full MLE if the talent can help us significantly. I've seen Cubes refuse to pay sometimes when I or others thought that he should, but I do believe it's because it was because he thought that he'd be getting poor value for the bucks not because he had exceeded a set amount of dollars.

And as for Bradley, even if all he does is fill in for a handful of games when we have injured players, he's worth a lot more than just giving him away. And I feel that Bradley can give a good deal more than that. If we trade Bradley we should get something of equitable value in return.
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:28 AM   #8
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Miles, I really do like both the guys you're targeting with this one. It's just that, outside of saving money, the only other clear advantage is that the Mavs get younger at C. For a team as close as this one is to the top those goals ring hollow as justifications for shaking up the roster like this.

As far as the rationale you offer for trading for the athletic center, while I'm also sympathetic to that (and would absolutely love to have Gad - only Chandler has higher appeal to me), IMO the far more important consideration is finding an effective center, irrespective of whether he's especially athletic. Having an athlete in the frontcourt is a nice thing to have for matchup purposes and transition play, but the Spurs handled the Suns just fine in spite of the fact that they only have 2 guys in their entire rotation who can count athleticism as a strength in their games (TP and Manu).
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:30 AM   #9
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

first of all Josh Howard is off limits!!!!!!!! I would never do this trade. i like igudala but not enough to trade JHo. dalambert is a butter fingers just like damp but skinnyer. and taking on that huge 10 mil from a usless mashburn, no thanks
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Old 06-12-2005, 05:04 AM   #10
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

If the Sixers would be dumb enough to do this deal--which they wouldn't--the Mavs would be idiotic not to take it.

It would be nice if Dampier had that much trade value. He doesn't. In fact, I expect him to end his career as a Maverick, languishing on the end of the bench with a contract worse than Alan Houston's. If the Mavs hadn't decided to jerk their knees and enter the fray last offseason, Dampier would have either signed for the MLE with NY or signed for a bit more with Memphis. Atlanta, as desperate as they are for even passable players, wasn't willing to offer the ridiculous sum that we threw to Dampier. That should tell you something.

No, Erick Dampier isn't going anywhere. Nobody with any sense would touch his contract, especially with the new CBA which will doubtless be favorable to ownership. We'll be reduced to watching his half-hearted, subpar style of center of play for the better part of the next decade.

Given that he's a terrible pairing with Dirk Nowitzki at PF, I think the Mavs should more serously consider a buyout of his contract than they should consider sweetening any deal to rid themselves of this albatross with the geniune talent they have on the roster.
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Old 06-12-2005, 05:21 AM   #11
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Quote:
Originally posted by: chumdawg If the Mavs hadn't decided to jerk their knees and enter the fray last offseason, Dampier would have either signed for the MLE with NY or signed for a bit more with Memphis.
Absolute nonsense. Indiana was foaming at the mouth for him, as was Memphis. Dampier was a very sought-after free agent last season. You don't have to agree that he should have been, but regardless, he was. Cuban didn't just sign Damp to that gigantic contract because he was in a generous mood, or saw his play last season and said "WOW! Other teams may not be offering much for him, but I think he just deserves a juicy contract, well... just because!" No, several teams, particularly Memphis, Indiana, and obviously Dallas were in a frenzy for him. I specifically remember Jermaine O'Neal making a comment about him like "He would be a big help for us in the middle." Cuban gave him that contract because that's how high the bidding went. Damp certainly got better offers than you suggest.

Quote:
Atlanta, as desperate as they are for even passable players, wasn't willing to offer the ridiculous sum that we threw to Dampier. That should tell you something
If they're so desperate for "even passable" players, then why did they give up Rasheed Wallace and Antoine Walker.

Note: I'm not disagreeing with you that Damp's contract is atrocious, and that he'll end his career as a Maverick, sitting on the bench while we wait for that huge contract to expire. I agree that that's a very possible senario, and I also agree that his trade value is at an extreme low. My point is merely that Dampier had a higher value last offseason than you seem to think.
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Old 06-12-2005, 06:55 AM   #12
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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I think the Mavs should more serously consider a buyout of his contract
Yeah, release the walking double double. We finally get a decent center in here and you want to not only get rid of him for nothing, you want to buy him out so that he can't be moved for anything.

The guy put up 9/9 for us this year on 54% from the field and that was with two wasted months with Nellie pulling him every time he wanted to go with four guards and Dirk because Nellie was, well, Nellie, there is a reason Nellie never won the NBA title in his coaching career.

I agree, I seriously doubt Philadelphia would do this trade, but to suggest releasing the best center this franchise has seen since James Donaldson is, well, ridiculous.
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Old 06-12-2005, 06:59 AM   #13
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

I just find it hard to gripe about Erick Dampiers contract when you have Tariq Abdul Wahad on the payroll for basically what Erick Dampier is making, Shawn Bradley on the payroll for three more seasons at $14,500,000 wasted dollars, and Michael Finley around at 3 years $52,000,000. Dampier is owed $53,000,000 over 5 years, hardly a bad deal in todays market for centers. The guy made $7,000,000 this year and basically gave us a double double (9/9) for it, there are worse values all over the NBA at less valuable positions.

I just can't come to gripe about Dampiers contract when Michael Finley is making $52,000,000 over three seasons. *That* is an immovable and horrible contract, Dampier has value, like the guy or not.
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Old 06-12-2005, 11:01 AM   #14
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Who let madape log in on CD's account?
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:59 PM   #15
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Quote:
Given that he's a terrible pairing with Dirk Nowitzki at PF
Where are you getting this from? Dirk's +/- per minute with Damp was higher then with any other player on our roster this year (if you throw out KVH who only played 320 minutes with Dirk). The Dirk/Damp winning % was as high or higher then any other Dirk pairing and, most importantly, the Dirk/Damp defensive pairing was our most effective after you throw out players like Booth and Dickau who aren't statistically significant. Sure they exchanged words in the playoffs, but Cartwright threatened to kick Jordan’s ass once…didn’t stop them from winning three titles together.

Dirk is a finesse PF so Damp is a better compliment to him than a player like Raef or in this case Dalenbert. He needs a player next to him that will do the dirty work, not another greyhound to run up and down the floor with. Although more athletic, Dalembert is just as inconsistent as Damp and for that matter most other centers in the league…he’d be just as overpaid as Damp if somebody were to give him a contract starting at $8MM. Anybody that thinks Damp is a lower echelon center needs to get league pass and see what the rest of the league is getting night in and night out from that position…it’s not pretty.

Chum you're one of the most respected posters on this board, but IMO your dislike for Damp (which seems to be in some way connected to your hate for Cuban) is clouding your judgment.
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:23 PM   #16
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Gotta do that deal. Iguadola & Dalembert are young and talented added to Dirk, Devin & Terry & you're set for five years or more. Bradley & Mash are pretty well at the end of their careers, and Quis, Josh & Damp don't represent the same level of talent as the two Philly young guys. Be better if there were a way to keep Josh, though.
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:23 PM   #17
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

How can you hate Cuban? Best owner in the NBA, maybe sports.
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Old 06-12-2005, 05:40 PM   #18
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Miles and Dirno, you both hit the nail on the head. I've defended Damp as strongly as anyone here this season. I remember all those years we needed a center, and everyone just wanted a guy who could average something like 8/8. Nobody was praying for Shaq, or even an all-star, just a guy who could give us enough to get by. Then Cuban signs Damp, and all of a sudden the expectations for him balloon (although he may have brought that on himself a bit with the "2nd best center" comment.) He had a solid season. Anyone who honestly expected him to average something like 15 and 12 was totally unreasonable. The only problem I have with his contract is his age. There are six years left on it, and he's 30. So, that contract is unmovable. Even so, I've been very satisfied with his play thusfar, and, chum, your comment about him being a "a terrible pairing with Dirk Nowitzki at PF" is totally inaccurate and unfounded.
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Old 06-12-2005, 07:59 PM   #19
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

D2K, I'd be interested in exploring a little further the question of whether Dampier is an excellent pairing with Dirk.

Interesting that Dirk and KVH had a better plus-minus than Dirk with Damp. You say it was only 320 minutes with the former. How many minutes with the latter?

In my mind, it comes down to a philosophical question. You say that Dirk is a finesse player and he needs a center alongside him to do the dirty work. I wonder two things: A) is Damp really doing the "dirty work," if that's the best strategy?, and B) is that really the way to maximize the benefit we get from having Dirk on the floor?

In other words, would the Mavs be better off with a center who could enhance the things that Dirk does well? Maybe a guy who could draw his defender away from the basket to give Dirk room to work. Or a guy who could come along with Dirk and the rest of the team on the break, since that is something that over time we have seen Dirk do very well. Or, and perhaps most importantly, a guy who is a legitimate offensive threat in the low post, when Dirk gets the ball at the elbow like he is prone to do.

I see the ideal center to play alongside Dirk as someone who can match his athleticism. This puts the ultimate pressure on the defense. No interior gets to take a break. No interior defender gets to cheat off his man, who is not an offensive threat, to help against Dirk, who is trying to carry the offensive load.

But as for your plus-minus pairings...I submit that WHOEVER was the center of this team, as long as that guy was passable, Dirk was going to have his highest plus-minus ratings with. In other words, this stat is meaningless. It stands to reason that Dirk will do better with a decent center than he will with a guy like Henderson. But then again, it's intriguing how well he did with KVH.

Here's what I believe about the NBA. I believe that there are two ways to get it done. If you have a team without an overwhelming player--a team like Detroit--you try to play in a way that minimizes the weaknesses of all the players collectively. If you are lucky enough to have one of the top six or eight talents in the game, you try to play in a way that maximizes the abilities of that player, given that only five guys are on the floor at any one time and that, hence, one player can make a tremendous impact.

If you've got one of those guys, as the Mavericks do with Dirk, everything you do should be in an effort to take advantage of the problems that he poses the other team. So when it comes to interior play, the problem that Dirk poses--and this is how Dirk differs from someone like Peja--is that Dirk can beat you from both the outside and the inside. So what you want to avoid at all costs is a lineup that allows the defense to help out on one of the threats (beating you inside), which kills your two-pronged attack.

So my conclusion is that Dirk needs to be paired with a centerman who has respectable offensive skills. Anything less is not taking advantage of what Dirk brings to the table. Dirk is the bell cow of the franchise, and like it or not, Dirk is a guy who helps you more on the offensive end than the defensive. You need toi maximize that advantage.
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:09 PM   #20
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

CD, nobody's saying that Damp is the prototype of the kind of center you want playing alongside Dirk. He's not. But he does posess a number of desireable characteristics that allow the pairing to be effective, which it undeniably was (+13.2 on-court +/- in 1334 minutes), both offensively (104.1 points per 48), and defensively (90.9 points allowed per 48). It's fine to point out the weaknesses that Damp has, but your contention that he's such a bad match with Dirk that the Mavs might be better off buying out his contract to be rid of him was completely unsupportable.
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Old 06-12-2005, 09:55 PM   #21
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

I think I said that they would be better off buying out his contract to be rid of him than they would be giving up talent like Howard and Daniels to be rid of him.

Here's an interesting question: if the Mavs weren't concerned about winning this past year--which, if you take them at their word, you have to concede that they were not--would they have been better off doing what they did last year (inking Damp to a brick of a contract) or waiting until this offseason, when the likes of Dalembert would have been available?

It was supposed to be all about youth and about building a core around Nowitzki for three to five years from now. Dalembert, or his ilk, would have accomplished that. Dampier flew in the face of that.

His performance in last year's playoffs notwithstanding, I do believe that the guy has SOME trade value. I'm hoping that they pull a LaFrenz and peddle him in the offseason. I am nowhere...NEAR...convinced that the Mavs have their best chance of winning a title with Erick Dampier manning the middle.
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Old 06-12-2005, 10:46 PM   #22
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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I think I said that they would be better off buying out his contract to be rid of him than they would be giving up talent like Howard and Daniels to be rid of him.
Fair enough, but you still characterized him as a "terrible pairing" with Dirk, which simply isn't true.

And what-ifs from a year ago aren't really the point (though it's worth noting that waiting until this offseason would have denied the Mavs the opportunity to make use of Laettner's expiring contract). What's done is done, and what the Mavs have done is acquire a quality starting center (at least by current league standards). The challenge now is how to improve the roster to take the next step towards a championship. I don't expect that taking that next step is going to involve trading Dampier. IMO, like Fin and Daniels, his contract and performance this last year make him worth more to the Mavs than he's worth to most other teams. Which isn't really that much of a problem. The Mavs have other tradeable assets who can bring a good return, and the MLE to play with as well, and are in a position where the only thing they really need to go out and acquire is another big to back up the one they acquired last summer.
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Old 06-12-2005, 11:03 PM   #23
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

See, GMC, that's what bothers me. What bothers me is that this team thinks it is only a backup 5 away from contending for a title. I worry a lot more about the starting five than I do about backups--as Phoenix should give us all evidence of. Now, granted, if Damp continues to not be able to find a way to stay on the floor agains the Stoudamire's of the league, then the backup 5 becomes a huge factor. But only by default--only by the default of the starting 5 not being worth his salt.

In this day and age, and especially in this conference, some combination of KVH or other small baller should be plenty good to get by with at the backup 5. Because in the end, it shouldn't be decided by the backup 5. It should be decided by the starting 5.

I don't know about you, G. I get the feeling you are a little bit younger than I am, or at least came around to the Mavericks later than I did. But I've grown pretty conditioned to the Mavs being not quite good enough, for reasons perhaps beyond their control, to make it to the promised land. In the late 80's they had a hell of a team. Good to great players at all positions. Depth on the bench. A quality coaching staff. But they couldn't get past Magic's Lakers. Now, then, they've got the Magic (Dirk) but they don't have the Kareems and Worthys around him. And even Dirk himself is not quite as magic as Duncan is.

See, that's the thing that I think is missing from a lot of this debate. Everyone has ideas about what the ideal basketball team is. Defense wins championships, and all that. But you just can't get around the fact that you will have to get thrugh other teams to get to the promised land, and the style of those other teams will impact what you need to do. Planning an ideal basketball team doesn't exist in a vaccuum. It would if all the players were equally skilled. But they're not.

It reminds me a lot of the Rangers from the 90's. They couldn't get past the Yankees, so they blew it up in an effort to do so. But those Yankees teams may have been among the best baseball teams ever. It may very well have been the case that no matter what the Rangers did, they weren't going to pass the Yankees.

Sometimes there are things you just can't get around. If...you keep trying to get around them in the conventional way.
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Old 06-12-2005, 11:37 PM   #24
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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Interesting that Dirk and KVH had a better plus-minus than Dirk with Damp. You say it was only 320 minutes with the former. How many minutes with the latter?
Dirk and Damp played 1,334 minutes together.

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In my mind, it comes down to a philosophical question. You say that Dirk is a finesse player and he needs a center alongside him to do the dirty work. I wonder two things: A) is Damp really doing the "dirty work," if that's the best strategy?, and B) is that really the way to maximize the benefit we get from having Dirk on the floor?
I’m going to say yes and yes since Dirk just had his best season as a pro despite losing one of the top two PG’s in the league.

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In other words, would the Mavs be better off with a center who could enhance the things that Dirk does well? Maybe a guy who could draw his defender away from the basket to give Dirk room to work. Or a guy who could come along with Dirk and the rest of the team on the break, since that is something that over time we have seen Dirk do very well. Or, and perhaps most importantly, a guy who is a legitimate offensive threat in the low post, when Dirk gets the ball at the elbow like he is prone to do.
A perimeter center to help space the floor has it advantages…if you’re asking me, I’d prefer our center to hang around the basket and collect the garbage when Dirk misses. Damp came through with HUGE offensive rebounds and put backs in the 4th quarters of games 3 and 4 in Houston.

Like you, I’d love a center that was a threat to score a lot of points in the low post. Problem is there aren’t that many in the league and you find one you max him out you don’t trade him.

And by the way, Dalembert doesn’t fit either of the profiles you just mentioned. He’s a younger, more athletic but worse rebounding version of Damp. Philly grabbed a higher % of the available offensive and defensive rebounds when Dalembert wasn’t on the court than when he was.

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I see the ideal center to play alongside Dirk as someone who can match his athleticism. This puts the ultimate pressure on the defense. No interior gets to take a break. No interior defender gets to cheat off his man, who is not an offensive threat, to help against Dirk, who is trying to carry the offensive load.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you’d like to have Brad Miller as your center. Nice player and an All-Star and he’s going to get you killed on the glass.

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So my conclusion is that Dirk needs to be paired with a centerman who has respectable offensive skills. Anything less is not taking advantage of what Dirk brings to the table. Dirk is the bell cow of the franchise, and like it or not, Dirk is a guy who helps you more on the offensive end than the defensive. You need toi maximize that advantage.
My conclusion is that what you gain in efficiency out of Dirk, you’ll just lose in team defense and rebounding…we should get a better read on this next season as KVH will presumably be here for the full year…or at least until the trade deadline.

EditAt least I got you to admit that Damp is "passable" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
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Old 06-12-2005, 11:52 PM   #25
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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Originally posted by: chumdawg if Damp continues to not be able to find a way to stay on the floor agains the Stoudamire's of the league, then the backup 5 becomes a huge factor. But only by default--only by the default of the starting 5 not being worth his salt.
There's only one Amare Stoudemire, and there's only going to be one Amare Stoudemire. I find it utterly ridiculous that so many people seem to think that Amare is somehow the model of all the future centers in the NBA; that there will be an entirely new breed of centers like Amare, and that players like him will be at all common. Nonsense. Amare is a one of a kind combination of size and speed, and is in a class of his own. The same can be said for Dirk. Dirk is the only one of his kind, and his game will never be common; there will never be a day when all the 7 foot PF's in the league will be shooting 3's. So, that said, really the only problem with our starting 5 is that Dampier doesn't match up against Amare, in which case we put KVH or someone else on him (I really think we would have won that series if KVH played.)

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And even Dirk himself is not quite as magic as Duncan is.
Not sure if that's really relavent, or true for that matter. Duncan has certainly accomplished much more in his career than has Dirk, but I think Dirk is one or two small steps away from being as good as or better than Duncan. The fact is, San Antonio has thusfar always had a better team.
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Old 06-13-2005, 12:00 AM   #26
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

I'll admit I do get a little bit nervous hearing Avery talk about not wanting to make any changes. Donnie, not Avery is the one who's in charge of brokering deals with other teams, and I like it that way. If there are opportunities to upgrade I very much hope the Mavs wouldn't pass them up just because Avery likes Stack's warrior mentality or something like that. And to be clear, I'm not convinced that if the Mavs stay out of the trade game and add a backup center in free agency that they'll be the favorites or anything like that. I just tend to think that there's enough reason to expect improvement internally that with the addition of said big man and a little luck on the injury front they'll be right there in the mix. That's not good enough to veto deals that clearly improve the talent level on the team, but it's definitely good enough to dissaude me from wanting to make a change just for the sake of making a change. The goal should be to field the best team possible next year with the caveat that future flexibility should only be sacrificed in proportion to significant increases in the readiness of the team to contend for a title in the short-term (which is to say if there's a trade that messes up the prospects of the team 3 years down the road I'll only support the gamble if it makes the team prohibitive favorites for the next couple years).

Now, as to specifcally why I won't be broken-hearted if all this team does is sign Chris Andersen in FA, here's my rationale:
1) Point guard - I think there's good reason to expect both Jason and Devin to be better from the get-go than they were last year, and good reason to expect Devin to be better still by the end of the year. Not that I expect either one to be Nash-like getting teammates involved, but Jason's going to be more comfortable, and with the talent and youth he posesses Devin is really only going to get better.
2) SG/SF - I don't think Stack's going to get any better, but Fin might (owing to the ankle surgery), Josh probably will (his game really looks like it's on the way up to me), and Quis absolutely should (I really believe a healthy offseaon and training camp will make a difference). Regardless of whether all that depth at the 2/3 does much for us in the postseason, being able to rely on it in the regular season - something the Mavs were supposed to be able to do this last year but in reality weren't - might pay dividends as far as seeding goes.
3) KVH - so, so much better than Henderson. The minutes aren't going to be all that high - 20 a game or so - but even those 20 minutes figure to be worth at least 3 points differential per game, which will make a difference in the win column.
4) Dirk's post game - between Josh's development as a scorer, Dirk's summer training and AJ's propensity to work Dirk in the post on a regular basis I really don't think teams are going to be able to get away with playing Dirk the way they often did this year. It's been a problem the last two seasons that when the Mavs have made it to the playoffs they've had to adjust their style of play because of their opponents defending Dirk with smaller players. I expect the Mavs to work the offense with Dirk in the post enough next regular season that the playoffs won't require such a fundamental adjustment in the offensive philosophy, and expect that to translate into better play from the team overall.
5) Last year's phantom depth - I alluded to it already, but the depth that was supposed to be a strength last season ended up being a mirage. Between injuries, the struggles of some of the young guys, and Shawn's baffling inability to earn the trust of his coaches the Mavs really only had one bench player of note, that being Stack. There was no clear and reliable choice for most of the playoffs at pg, pf, or center, and for a team that was built to depend on their depth (though the starting lineup was unquestionably one of the best in the league) that was simply too much to overcome. I don't take that as an indictment of the strategy of trying to win with depth, but rather as an indictment of the way last year's depth on paper failed to translate onto the court. Between the considerations surrounding Devin, Quis, and KVH noted above, I think we can expect that paper depth to deliver with more potency and realibility in 05/06 than what we saw this year.

Of course, if a good deal for Paul Pierce comes along we can just scratch all of that.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Edit: oh yeah - 6) just being together for another year can't hurt. Being experienced with your teammates isn't everything, but it does count for something.
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Old 06-13-2005, 12:17 AM   #27
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Excellent post, GMC. I agree with pretty much everything you said there. The truth is, we really are one of the deepest teams in the league, maybe the deepest. It didn't always seem that way because the chemistry wasn't there, and depth is nothing without chemistry. Personally, I'm one of those that hopes we don't make any major moves in the offseason and just add a backup 5, because I think continuity and chemistry is priority one. Not that I wouldn't love to have someone like Paul Pierce or Ray Allen; I just think they're pipe dreams.
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Old 06-13-2005, 12:55 AM   #28
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

Okay, guys, you have talked me off the ledge. I'll go along with you on this one...but not without reservations that the best we can hope for is second-best team in the conference.

GMC, about your breakdowns by position...

I sure hope you are right about the one. I don't hold any doubt that this position held us back this year. I do expect Harris to improve sooner rather than later. I just hope it happens soon enough, and that it's enoug when it does happen. On Terry, I don't expect significant improvement from him. To me, he's shown what he is: a guy who can get hot and score 25, and a guy who's not particularly adept at getting his teammates in position to score. He's an ideal bench player--the kind of guy who can really make a difference off the bench--but not much more than that.

I, too, think that Finley still has a lot to contribute, especially in next year's postseason.

Howard is, to me, an intriguing player. I think--and I'm completely serious about this--that he could average 20 in this league. As opposed to Damp, I see him as very much the ideal pairing with Dirk at the three. His star is only going to rise.

At the four and five, I'm hopeful that KVH can make a big contribution next year. I worry, however, that he doesn't a firm place in Avery's system, outside of backing up Dirk for ten minutes a game. And Dampier...I'm sorry, but I don't expect anything more from him than what he gave us this year. It almost pisses me off--no, wait, it DOES piss me off--that he had such a good game after Dirk called him out in these playoffs. If he brought that kind of effort every game, or at least in every important game, I'd be square on his bandwagon. But his apparent ignorance of big-game situations irks me. His apparent indifference to whether the Mavs win or lose irks me. That's what worries me about this team. I worry that they have a lot invested--and I'm not talking about money--in a guy who can't be counted on to show up when the chips are down.

If that changes next year, I'll be more than happy to sing the guy's praises. But the problem is that I can't be convinced that it will. Sometimes you just have to realize that what you see is what you get.

The thing is, I think that Dampier is absolutely crucial to our playoff success the next few years. He HAS to be a difference when we play San Antonio. I'm holding out hope that he will be, but I'm also nervous that we make it that far.
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Old 06-13-2005, 01:14 AM   #29
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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Originally posted by: chumdawg
It almost pisses me off--no, wait, it DOES piss me off--that he had such a good game after Dirk called him out in these playoffs. If he brought that kind of effort every game, or at least in every important game, I'd be square on his bandwagon.
I don't think that's fair. Did it piss you off when Finley started playing better when Nellie sat him down? Did it piss you off when Terry had 14 assists the night after Nellie said he wasn't a point guard? Would it piss you off less if Dampier had just played horribly the entire series, as opposed to playing well after being called out by Dirk?
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Old 06-13-2005, 01:27 AM   #30
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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Originally posted by: chumdawgbut not without reservations that the best we can hope for is second-best team in the conference.
There was a time when the Detroit Pistons said the same thing about the Boston Celtics, and shortly thereafter the Chicago Bulls said the same thing about Detroit. This situation is no different. San Antonio is a great team, but they're by no means unbeatable, nor are they so far out of our league that we can't hope to be better than they are.


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The thing is, I think that Dampier is absolutely crucial to our playoff success the next few years. He HAS to be a difference when we play San Antonio. I'm holding out hope that he will be, but I'm also nervous that we make it that far.
San Antonio doesn't have Amare Stoudemire, so should we meet SA in the postseason, Damp will be very effective, and very reliable. Amare's one thing, but I promise you, Damp can hold his own with Rasho Nesterovic and Nazr Mohammed.
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Old 06-13-2005, 02:37 PM   #31
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

CD, my point on Terry was that the circumstances of his arrival this year and Nellie's decision to bench him at the start of the season in favor of a rookie who clearly wasn't ready to be the starter on this team probably, no definitely hurt his play. Even if early season stability is the only thing that changes from last year to next for Terry, I think there's good reason to expect that the Mavs will come out of the gate considerably better than they did last year at the point. How much more we see from JT by the end of the year may well depend on how Avery looks to mold him. I don't think we've seen Terry's best by any stretch (in terms of the level he's able to play at consistently). He's very capable of efficiently scoring another 5 points a game more than what he put up last year, it's just a matter of finding a way to balance his traditional starting point guard responsibilities with his natural VJ/BJ/NVE-type abilities.
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Old 06-13-2005, 02:59 PM   #32
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Default RE: Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

I just discovered this thread. Pretty entertaining read. I have to admit, I laughed out loud at the suggestion of Dampier being bought out. And I needed a good laugh.

Thanks, Chum.

Miles - I like the guys you're going after in the initial trade proposal, but I agree with the sentiment that it's too much of a lateral move.
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Old 06-13-2005, 03:13 PM   #33
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

About the dirk and damp pairing. I think they are a great pairing outside of superstars(Duncan, shaq, kg, jo, amare go back to my "This offseason" for last year that got laughed at and see what that team woulda looked like this year) their is probably no one i would want playing center along side dirk. Essentially you say you want either a guy who can shoot been there done that and it doesnt work. Do not want to do that again. Or a guy who is a great post offensive player. Ok what post scoring center do you want to go get. Damp is a better post player than dalembert. Also damp is better defensively than you are giving him credit for. He is also one of the best players in the league at sealing his man and allowing an open drive to the lane. So unless we get the real life version of nba live with create a player i think that damp is the best you will get. He is a top 10 center. He and dirk are the only two on our team who are top 10 at their position.
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Old 06-13-2005, 06:48 PM   #34
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Default RE:Dallas | Philadelphia (7 Player Trade)

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Originally posted by: Five-ofan So unless we get the real life version of nba live with create a player i think that damp is the best you will get.
Got a good laugh out of that one.

Quote:
He is a top 10 center. He and dirk are the only two on our team who are top 10 at their position.
I'm in agreement there. I've stated this on another thread, but the way I see it, it goes like this:
1. Shaq
2. Amare
3. Yao
4. Ben Wallace
5. Jamaal Magloire
6. Marcus Camby
7. Chris Bosh
8. Erick Dampier
9. Brad Miller
10. Zydrunus Ilgauskas
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