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Old 05-24-2007, 03:27 PM   #81
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And the dems sure aren't the party of jack kennedy or scoop jackson either. Not really sure what they stand for to be honest.
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Old 05-24-2007, 03:30 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Mavdog
....a concept btw that fewer and fewer republicans embrace as the philospohy of the party.
yes, and I believe this was the pertinent point -- the GOP is not the party of "less government, of less taxation, home of the corp of folks who want an "original intent" vision on the constitution." hence....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
the gop of today is not the party of goldwater, and surely not the party of libertarians either.
Certainly, which is why a) it's quite unreasonable to say that Paul represents the *purest form* of the party's ideology; and b) it's quite unsurprising that Republicans, by and large, hate Ron Paul -- even those few Republican's who occasionally use his rhetoric are routinely shown to be crass hypocrites.

Which is why I think it's not out of the question that Paul may have *some* (ie, 2%) support come a year from November. There are still more than a few Goldwater style conservatives out there, and they have no political home.

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Old 05-24-2007, 04:31 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dude1394
And the dems sure aren't the party of jack kennedy or scoop jackson either. Not really sure what they stand for to be honest.
Democrats are clearly still an incoherent mess. The republicans have headed far in that same direction, and seem likely to even farther still before clarity emerges.

Whichever party first seizes upon a dynamic leader that can unify its message/troops will kick some serious ass and simultaneusly deflate the opposition ... leading to a SERIOUS boost one direction or the other that will effect the US political positioning for probably a good 6-8 years. (see Tony Blair, before his party started to hate him)
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:59 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by alexamenos
yes, and I believe this was the pertinent point -- the GOP is not the party of "less government, of less taxation, home of the corp of folks who want an "original intent" vision on the constitution." hence....
surely you are not saying that there is an abscence of this thought from the entire republican party?

there is a wing who does share those same core values, hence

Quote:
Certainly, which is why a) it's quite unreasonable to say that Paul represents the *purest form* of the party's ideology; and b) it's quite unsurprising that Republicans, by and large, hate Ron Paul -- even those few Republican's who occasionally use his rhetoric are routinely shown to be crass hypocrites.

Which is why I think it's not out of the question that Paul may have *some* (ie, 2%) support come a year from November. There are still more than a few Goldwater style conservatives out there, and they have no political home.

Cheers
it's a bit ignorant for one to take the position that libertarian philosophy isn't a part of the history of the gop. from isolationism to taxation, to individual rights legislation which began with the end of slavery, the gop has a kinship with libertarianism.

wasn't the name "republican" borrowed from sidney?

yes, I believe it was...

what I can agree with you on is the republican establishment hates ron paul.

those conservatives you mention that are "out there" do have a home, it's gingrich or thompson.
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:10 PM   #85
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Md - you've variously argued that Ron Paul "reflects the purest form of the party's ideology" and that "the gop of today is not the party of goldwater, and surely not the party of libertarians either." I believe these two statements are in conflict and I don't care to guess which is actually your position.

Regardless of what the Republican party may have believed in the past, what it believes today is all that is relevant. Republican is as Republican does.

....and, neither Gingrich or Thompson have thrown their hat into the ring. If they do I'll revise my estimate for Paul.
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Old 05-25-2007, 07:57 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
Md - you've variously argued that Ron Paul "reflects the purest form of the party's ideology" and that "the gop of today is not the party of goldwater, and surely not the party of libertarians either." I believe these two statements are in conflict and I don't care to guess which is actually your position.

Regardless of what the Republican party may have believed in the past, what it believes today is all that is relevant. Republican is as Republican does.
I'll let ron paul tell you:

Dr. Paul said his detractors tend to be people who "like big government a lot more than I do. ... If they attack me, they're attacking the Constitution. If they attack my foreign policy, they're attacking the advice of the founding fathers and the traditions of the Republican Party."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...l.380a1c8.html

do you believe that the republican party, especially since reagan, has followed its traditional ideology? or has it become accepting of the democrat domestic and foreign policies?

from your comments clearly you say they haven't adhered to the "traditions" as ron paul calls them.

so there's no "conflict" in my statements.

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....and, neither Gingrich or Thompson have thrown their hat into the ring. If they do I'll revise my estimate for Paul.
oh, they're running. otherwise they wouln't have their names in the news every other day.
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Old 05-25-2007, 10:13 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
Dr. Paul said his detractors tend to be people who "like big government a lot more than I do. ... If they attack me, they're attacking the Constitution. If they attack my foreign policy, they're attacking the advice of the founding fathers and the traditions of the Republican Party."
my mistake, Md....I thought this discussion was all related to "paul registers only 1% of the republicans, what makes anyone believe that he can get even to 1% of the overall voters??" If Paul's current Republican supporters include founding fathers and Taft era Republicans, then I'm not so sure he will poll better with the public at large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
do you believe that the republican party, especially since reagan, has followed its traditional ideology?
no

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavdog
or has it become accepting of the democrat domestic and foreign policies?
Their foreign policy is closer to the quintessentially liberal Wilson and FDR than anything else. Their domestic policy is warmed up LBJ Great Society with a more religious sales pitch.
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Old 05-26-2007, 04:24 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by [SIZE="3"
alexamenos]Saul Anuzis, Chairman of Michigan GOP, petitioned to exclude Ron Paul from future debates because Paul's opposition to the Iraq war. IOW, it is a fact that high-ranking GOP members want to exclude Paul from debates, and your statement is therefore factually incorrect.



This *ridiculous 911 conspiracy theory* as you call it is cited in the 911 Commission report and backed by the CIA's former head of the Bin Laden unit, among others. That you would refer to Paul's views as a *ridiculous conspiracy theory* indicates that you are either:

a) incredibly stupid and ignorant; or
b) intellectually dishonest.

Inasmuch as only three posts prior to your last post in this thread is a post which lays out Paul's views and the concept of blowback, I cannot reasonably imagine that you are just stupid and ignorant. You must therefore also be quite a liar, and I generally prefer to deal with liars as little as possible.

cheers, and please go somewhere else.

alex
[/SIZE]


First off I will go wherever I want, and I need no suggestions or veiled threats from you. Trust me, that is a place you do not want to go.

In terms of your charge about the 911 conspiracy theory, I saw Ron Paul in a video clip at a meeting not only not denounce the possibility, but in fact he fuleed more speculation that there could have been a conspiracy involving 911. Perhaps you should go view it for yourself, though I don't want to tell you where to go.

As for people not wanting him in further debates, yes you are correct that there are a select few, but I am sure you could find a few who would want any single candidate out of the debates. I know of no concerted effort by Fox, or the GOP (those in charge in DC) to get him out of the debates. Assuming you do not speak with them (you appear that you would not believe them anyway because they are not fellow anarchists) then I surmise you know of no concerted effort form the heads of the GOP, or Fox News.

Open debate is cool, but throwing around "liar, liar pants on fire" makes you sound like a nutty leftist. You seem to be pretty intelligent, though often wrong, and that is beneath you. I encourage you to step it up a notch and live up to your potential. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. I was secretly meeting with GOP officials to get Ron Paul out of the debates!
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Old 05-27-2007, 08:48 PM   #89
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I just saw Ron Paul on Bill Mahr last night. I like him. I am not a republican, but I like what he had to say, and the fact that he put Guliani in his place. Also could usafreedom be any more of a homo?
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:26 PM   #90
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Also could usafreedom be any more of a homo?
He could be John Edwards or Barack Obama.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:18 PM   #91
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He could be John Edwards or Barack Obama.
ouch. what was that for. so I guess you are a hillary supporter then..because unless obama beats her out for the democratic nomination thats who we are going to have.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:39 PM   #92
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Nah...but since everyone's being called a homo, thought I'd jump in.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:29 PM   #93
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Nah...but since everyone's being called a homo, thought I'd jump in.
I just like jiving usafreedom.
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:22 AM   #94
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i don't know if obama is a queer, but Hillary? come on.....she's got Eleanor Roosevelt written all over her.
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:53 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmacomic
I just saw Ron Paul on Bill Mahr last night. I like him. I am not a republican, but I like what he had to say, and the fact that he put Guliani in his place. Also could usafreedom be any more of a homo?
I appreciate the offer dude, but happily married (to a woman before you pop off). Good luck with all that, and hope you find a guy you can share your life with.
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:19 AM   #96
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MSNBC Poll on last night's debate.

To summarize the data--Ron Paul was well-received, Rudy Giuliani is the suck.
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Old 06-06-2007, 11:24 AM   #97
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That poll, not unlike others, has been spammed.

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Old 06-06-2007, 11:34 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by capitalcity
That poll, not unlike others, has been spammed.

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Straw polls are not scientific polls which can be extrapolated to the larger population, but they are measures of enthusiastic support. This much can be inferred from the polls -- Ron Paul has more enthusiastic supporters right now than the other candidates.
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Old 06-06-2007, 11:37 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by alexamenos
Straw polls are not scientific polls which can be extrapolated to the larger population, but they are measures of enthusiastic support. This much can be inferred from the polls -- Ron Paul has more enthusiastic supporters right now than the other candidates.
or desperate
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Old 06-06-2007, 12:33 PM   #100
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or desperate
I think Paul supporters are mostly having fun -- I don't know of many who give him a chance in hell of getting the GOP nod, and I'm frankly surprised he's lasted this long.

Desperate is what the Republicans will be in the fall of '08 when they're backing a Republican from the "Teddy Kennedy wing of the Republican party" and wondering why the party conservatives don't give a crap about whether a Republican wins the office.
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Old 06-06-2007, 12:44 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by alexamenos
I think Paul supporters are mostly having fun -- I don't know of many who give him a chance in hell of getting the GOP nod, and I'm frankly surprised he's lasted this long.

Desperate is what the Republicans will be in the fall of '08 when they're backing a Republican from the "Teddy Kennedy wing of the Republican party" and wondering why the party conservatives don't give a crap about whether a Republican wins the office.
yadda yadda yadda.
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Old 06-06-2007, 12:45 PM   #102
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incidentally.....it's conventional wisdom amongst libertarians that the internet is the medium of choice for libertarian politics....
GOP/Dem Establishment - Mainstream Media, the ministry of truth;
Right Wingers - Simian Screeches of Radio Right
Hippie Left-wing Socialists - long-winded boring rants in obscure magazines;
Libertarians - the 'net.
So, it's no great surprise that a libertarian candidate shows well in a libertarian environment.
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:09 AM   #103
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FRED DALTON THOMPSON!
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:12 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
incidentally.....it's conventional wisdom amongst libertarians that the internet is the medium of choice for libertarian politics....
GOP/Dem Establishment - Mainstream Media, the ministry of truth;
Right Wingers - Simian Screeches of Radio Right
Hippie Left-wing Socialists - long-winded boring rants in obscure magazines;
Libertarians - the 'net.
So, it's no great surprise that a libertarian candidate shows well in a libertarian environment.
It will be funny when everyone starts using the internets.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:06 AM   #105
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It will be funny when everyone starts using the internets.
I'm not quite sure I follow your comment tho I imagine you disagree with the contention that libertarians are a larger percentage of 'net users than the general voting population.

....suffice it to say that AARP members have been less likely to use the internet over the last decade than software programmers for small development companies, the latter group being far more libertarian than the former.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:55 PM   #106
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Support for Ron Paul may not be a bit more substantial than some phantom internet thing. His fundraising has sky-rocketed over the last month to the point where he may be in the same ballpark as frontrunners.

Quote:
GOP Ron Paul - Five Million Dollar Man?
Thursday, June 07, 2007 - FreeMarketNews.com

Congressman Ron Paul’s donations have moved up - not by hundreds of thousands - but by millions as a result of his debate performances and groundswell of support on the Internet and in New Hampshire, observers close to the campaign say.

The move is especially impressive since as of March 31, 2007, he had perhaps $500,000 on hand (see candidate estimates below).

FMNN had previously reported – after the GOP presidential debate in South Carolina - that candidate Ron Paul’s (R-Tex) donations, large and small, had nearly doubled.

Now observers close to the campaign are revealing – with some astonishment – that donations to the campaign in recent weeks have pushed the total up to perhaps $4 or $5 million.

“That’s a huge number at this stage,” says one observer. “That starts to put him in a position where he can compete – state by state, anyway – with the major candidates.”

And this source added, “Of course, it’s hard to tell because the numbers keep changing – and thus nobody at the campaign has a firm count, at least not hour to hour. But the numbers are big. It’s definitely over three, probably over four, and if it hasn’t hit five yet, it will soon.”

At this rate, say observers, Ron Paul could have something like $10 million in his coffers inside of several months, and the total could keep growing – so long as he continues to hit on themes that Americans support – how to return the country to a true, small government, constitutional republic and how to end the war in Iraq. .....
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:42 PM   #107
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I love this guy. It's seldom that we see such a honest man run for president. I don't care if he has some faults, this man is not lying to anyone and that's what I love.

Ron Paul for President.
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:42 AM   #108
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Okay guys, here's a good one. Go to www.googlefights.com and let Ron Paul battle any other candidate...
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:23 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Arne
Okay guys, here's a good one. Go to www.googlefights.com and let Ron Paul battle any other candidate...
I can't figure out how this works.

Is it an "Alexa" type thing -- Ron Paul website traffic is pretty remarkable compared to the other candidates, if you've seen such a thing.
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:33 PM   #110
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Not crazy about old Ron Paul. Appears that if he had his way, we'd never have entered WW1, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq1, Iraq2 or just about anywhere else.

I think he's quite naive to think that without an aggressive US presence the sea lanes would be open, we'd have nearly the bountiful econimies all around the world.

I understand his thoughts on the matter and in general I want to be an isolationist where needed.

But anyone saying we should have let sadaam keep kuwait is irresponsible imo.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by dude1394
...I think he's quite naive to think that without an aggressive US presence the sea lanes would be open, we'd have nearly the bountiful econimies all around the world.

I understand his thoughts on the matter and in general I want to be an isolationist where needed.

But anyone saying we should have let sadaam keep kuwait is irresponsible imo.
On isolationism...there's no more isolationist of a country than Switzerland (it stayed out of WWI and WWII), and there's no country on earth that is more free or has a higher quality of life. IOW, there's nothing at all naive about an non-interventionist policy.

In Regards to Dr. Paul's One Commitment, that commitment is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution." That is the President's job description per the Constitution, that is the Oath the President will swear upon taking office, and any candidate who doesn't make this Oath the centerpiece of his campaign promises is not fit to President of a government subject to the Rule of Law, IMHO.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:25 AM   #112
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Alex..your comparison of the US with switzerland is ridiculous.

Unless you want to completely abrograte any and all responsiblity in the world. If so then say it. No more nato, no more world bank, no more funding for aids in africa, no more UN (for why need a UN when nothing will be resolved), etc.

If sea lanes are threatened between us and europe we just say aw, we don't need to worry about that, we'll just pay the ransom and keep shipping.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:27 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexamenos
On isolationism...there's no more isolationist of a country than Switzerland (it stayed out of WWI and WWII), and there's no country on earth that is more free or has a higher quality of life. IOW, there's nothing at all naive about an non-interventionist policy.

In Regards to Dr. Paul's One Commitment, that commitment is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution." That is the President's job description per the Constitution, that is the Oath the President will swear upon taking office, and any candidate who doesn't make this Oath the centerpiece of his campaign promises is not fit to President of a government subject to the Rule of Law, IMHO.
Fine, but unless you think that the constitution is completely immalleable (in other words, cannont be subjected to today's world) then it's naivity.

Iraq taking kuwait is a fine example. So we let it go, then saddam takes saudia arabia.

Is it okay? You have to answer the question. Is it okay to have one madman own most of the oil reserves in the world?

Do you think averting a global recession is part of "preserving, protecting and defending" the constitution? I do as it directly affects my family's welfare.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:37 AM   #114
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Dude, the World Bank is AWFUL for the world. do you realize how much money 3rd world contries owe it? They will never get their debt payed off. and in return the World Bank gets to decide what that countries exports are. so if america needs more juju bees they can order uganda (or whatever) to produce these juju bees instead of their usual wheat crops. crops they use to feed their own country. that forces "uganda" to import wheat from another one of the World Banks countries. at rediculously low prices, too. thus ensuring that countries who owe money cant make enough money to even cover their interest for the season. and the low prices also put local farmers (2-3 acre farms) out of business because they simply cannot compete price-wise.

YES the world would be a HELL of a lot better WITHOUT the world bank.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:40 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninkobei
Dude, the World Bank is AWFUL for the world. do you realize how much money 3rd world contries owe it? They will never get their debt payed off. and in return the World Bank gets to decide what that countries exports are. so if america needs more juju bees they can order uganda (or whatever) to produce these juju bees instead of their usual wheat crops. crops they use to feed their own country. that forces "uganda" to import wheat from another one of the World Banks countries. at rediculously low prices, too. thus ensuring that countries who owe money cant make enough money to even cover their interest for the season.

YES the world would be a HELL of a lot better WITHOUT the world bank.
that's one. But to be honest I just pulled that one out of my rear. I don't follow it that closely. My point of using it was to make clear that with a strict isolationist policy the aid we provide would also dry up.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:00 AM   #116
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Several points and directions to address, from the merit of our protection of Kuwaiti oilfields to Constitutional Law to aid for Africa. For ye mortals it would be a difficult task, but fortunately I can handle this with half my screen while surfing my porn sites with the other...

Quote:
Fine, but unless you think that the constitution is completely immalleable (in other words, cannont be subjected to today's world) then it's naivity.
I don't think the Constitution is at all immalleable--in fact the process for change is well-defined and well-known: 1) Two-Thirds of the Members of both houses of congress approve of an amendment; then 2) 3-4ths of State Legislatures Ratify an amendment (US Constitution, Article V).

I often find that what people mean when they say that the US Constitution is "malleable" is that it can interpreted to mean things that it does not say.

By a chain of reasoning which eludes me, "Congress Shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" does not mean that the body of Congress can't establish a religion, but instead it means that the Federal Government has the power to tell parents of a community whether their kids can pray in school, or not (and for you smarty-pants types, I get the whole 14th amendment thing, that's not what I'm talking about)i. Likewise I cannot understand how the 10th amendment does not mean exactly what it says.

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Unless you want to completely abrograte any and all responsiblity in the world. If so then say it. No more nato, no more world bank, no more funding for aids in africa, no more UN (for why need a UN when nothing will be resolved), etc.
1) Did you need me to argue against a US commitment to the UN? 2) As funding for aids in Africa, I'd say that plenty of africans already have aids and we shouldn't be sending more. 3) The world bank is a giant scam -- I'd deal with a loan shark before the world bank.

NATO??? That's a tougher one, and my thinking is along the lines of the Saddam in Kuwait, below, so I'll save a few words for now.....

Generally speaking, tho, we should ask more basic questions. Why should the US Government be responsible for so many of the world's problem? Is it best suited for these tasks? What costs do we ultimately bear, and are these costs worthwhile?

my time's running short (meetings and whatnot) -- i'll hit the others later.

regards,
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:21 AM   #117
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dude --

a short break and a quick interlude.....

For me, many of the questions are a question of means, not of ends.

e.g., Should we combat aids in africa? or Should we combat aids in africa and if so, by what means?

If the means are "we should start by raising money through charitable contributions where free people can give of their own free will and volition", then I might be more in favor of spreading aids in africa.

but...if the means are "we should start by taking money from the pocket of a farmer from Iowa, regardless of what he may prefer to do with his money, and threaten him with prison if he fails to fork his money over", then I've a problem with the means.

The issue(s) really is that basic...sadly the left has all but drowned this basic issue out of the modern discourse by branding all those who argue against coerced *charity* as greedy bigots.
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Old 06-13-2007, 01:14 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by alexamenos
I can't figure out how this works.

Is it an "Alexa" type thing -- Ron Paul website traffic is pretty remarkable compared to the other candidates, if you've seen such a thing.
Basicly this website compares how many results google can find if you type in any word, name, etc.

Okay, here's what you've got to do:

1. Go to www.googlefight.com

2. Enter the name Ron Paul in the little box that says "Keyword #1".

3. Enter the name of any other candidate in the little box that says "Keyword #2".

Then click the button "FIGHT".

P.S.: If you compare the number of results found by google yesterday to the number of today, you can see that its gone up. - Roughlyy 1.5 million more results found than yesterday.
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Old 06-13-2007, 02:51 PM   #119
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arne -- cool, thanks!
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Old 06-13-2007, 03:16 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394
...Iraq taking kuwait is a fine example. So we let it go, then saddam takes saudia arabia.

Is it okay? You have to answer the question. Is it okay to have one madman own most of the oil reserves in the world?
this is a pretty interesting question........alex's really brief history of this whole thing:

1. Ronnie Reagan and his gang supports saddam for quite a while. Yeah, sure, Saddam was a sadistic socialist nut, but he wasn't a crazy shiite like the iranians nor was he a freak job wahibist like the saudi rabble. He did keep Iran tied down through the 80's and hence neither iraq nor iran were a threat to our little gas tank in the gulf (aka, the House of Saud).

2. In the real late 80's, Saddam gets all pissed at the Kuwaitis because the Arabs down in Kuwait didn't pay him for keeping the crazy Persians out of Kuwait. So Saddam acts like a typical crazy arab and goes in and takes their stuff. After he takes a little he decides he wants the whole damn thing.

3. Saddam's foray into Kuwait really pissed George Bush off. Plus Bush was really bored at the time and a Gulf War gave him something fun to do. So Bush goes to a Saudi Prince and says, "No problem, Abdul, we got it covered.

4. As much as Saddam's little property anexation pissed bush off, it made somebody else even madder -- Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden really hated Saddam because Saddam was a commie, and those wahibis from the peninsula had just spent a decade fighting the commies in Afghanistan (quite successfully, I might add)....

5. So Osama goes to one of the Saudi Princes and says, "look, me and my boys just returned from taking out the Allah-less Soviet Union, surely we can handle this dipstick Saddam. Allah is on our side." The Saudi Prince says, "Thanks but no thanks. I've got the US -- check it out, they've parked half a million Christians right over there by Mecca. Neat, huh?"

6. This really pisses Osama off. Osama figures the House of Saud are a bunch of apostates, and that they maintain their rule because the US provides muscle to prop 'em up. So Osama gets to thinking, "how do we get these apostates out and get a real ummah goin' on??? We knock out their muscle!" Then Osama says, "go jihad all over the US."

7. Next thing you know, a bunch of really pissed off Saudis are flying airplanes into buildings in the US.....

......so.........maybe the benefit of keeping Saddam out of Kuwait was worth the blow-back. I dunno.

It seems plausible to me, regardless, that had we not intervened, Saddam and Osama could have duked it out for a few years, and I imagine it would have been pleasantly brutal war in which large swathes of both camps were killed.

EDIT: Onceupon a time I addressed this very question elsewhere in a much less smart-ass tone --> Link.
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