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Old 06-05-2009, 02:54 PM   #1
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Default Statistics...what are the deeper issues?

https://www.dallascounty.org/dcwante...endersList.jsp


I noticed this list posted from a local sports radio show.

This is the top 50 "Wanted" for arrest due to some type of violations, along with the amounts of money they owe.

The list breaks dows as follows:

45 = Male
5 = Female

42 = African American
4 = Hispanic
4 = White

What are the variables that contribute to such a drastic difference?

What is different in the various groups that influence the demographic?

Is it a courts problem, is it a community problem...what are the different influences that end up giving such a result?

Basically what is it that has caused these 50 indidividuals to make choices on their own to wind up on this list, and how can we as a society help not only these individuals, but change the elements that caused to get into this position?

This is the FIRST time, I have ever looked at something like this, I would be curious to see where I can find other lists and see what the statistics tell us.
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Old 06-05-2009, 03:06 PM   #2
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:17 AM   #3
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somebody wrote a book a few years back about how black people commit most crimes....it was called Krime and the Kolor of Kriminals or something like that....hmmmm.....

here's the thread...link

anyhoo, I think the phenomena is kind of a definitional thing. When black people want to rob and kill they form gangs, when white people want to rob and kill they form governments. Governments define what is crime and what is not, accordingly gangs commit more crimes than governments by definition.
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Old 06-06-2009, 11:07 AM   #4
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it's always interesting to read what posters write and catch a glimpse of how they frame things. sometimes it's thought provoking and insightful, and sometimes it's not. "black people...form gangs,...white people form governments" certainly is in the later category.

the higher incidence of crimes committed by blacks as a % of the overall pop is a reflection of the social factors prevalent, principally economic ones. lower income/wealth, lack of property ownership resulting in more transitory nature, breakdown of the family units and lastly difference in prosecution by the state (a black defendant is more likely to be convicted than a white defendant, crack cocaine which is mostly found in black urban areas is treated differently than powdered cocaine which is found in white surbuban areas).

heres a link to data on offenders
recidivism is also higher among black americans.
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:28 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Mavdog View Post
it's always interesting to read what posters write and catch a glimpse of how they frame things. sometimes it's thought provoking and insightful, and sometimes it's not. "black people...form gangs,...white people form governments" certainly is in the later category.

the higher incidence of crimes committed by blacks as a % of the overall pop is a reflection of the social factors prevalent, principally economic ones. lower income/wealth, lack of property ownership resulting in more transitory nature, breakdown of the family units and lastly difference in prosecution by the state (a black defendant is more likely to be convicted than a white defendant, crack cocaine which is mostly found in black urban areas is treated differently than powdered cocaine which is found in white surbuban areas).

heres a link to data on offenders
recidivism is also higher among black americans.
Question: How much of this is caused by the people living in those areas?

I strongly believe that a majority of the people in those areas have convinced themselves that the world is out to get them so they create their own problems and then blame everyone around it, which creates a vicious circle of regress from any type of potential success.

Are they somewhat held back now? Yes, but because of an image that they created and tout proudly. "Thug Life" as defined by Blacks (I refuse to say "African American" as, by definition, it makes no sense for 99.8% of black people in this country) from poor neighborhoods doesn't fit into any type of functioning society in this world, much less a competition/money hungry country. Someone in that position has a choice: Give in to their surroundings or actually attempt to live a productive life. Many more times than not they choose the first rather than the latter, which is why those parts of town never improve, rather they continually get worse until they spread.

Signed,

Cracker from the ghetto
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Old 06-08-2009, 01:40 AM   #6
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I don't really know what it means, but I once lived in a mostly black neighborhood, (and by mostly black I mean if you took a satellite photo of me, I would look like a tic-tac in a sack of charcoal). I got pulled over at least once a week. Every time I would be questioned on why I was in this area. I assumed it was suspicious for a white kid to be in this area unless he was up to no good. I was once even pulled over in my own driveway, before I ever started the car.

I guess my point is that there may be a racial bias when it comes to law enforcement.

Look, I'm not saying all cops are racist, just the white ones.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:16 AM   #7
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it's always interesting to read what posters write and catch a glimpse of how they frame things. sometimes it's thought provoking and insightful, and sometimes it's not. "black people...form gangs,...white people form governments" certainly is in the later category.
And I think you're viewing the disparity in crimes committed by blacks in a very prejudicial manner.

Many crimes committed by white folks aren't part of these statistics -- the statistics lie, in other words, and you can't draw meaningful inferences from statistics that lie. This, for instance, is not a crime because it was white man in a blue polyester uniform body slamming the chick into pavement.

Anyhoo...i understand that you think darkies committ more crimes because of 'socio-economic' things (it ain't their skin color, it's their culture! never heard that one before...), but I think if you counted a few more crimes committed by white folks, the disparity might not be so huge.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
And I think you're viewing the disparity in crimes committed by blacks in a very prejudicial manner.

Many crimes committed by white folks aren't part of these statistics -- the statistics lie, in other words, and you can't draw meaningful inferences from statistics that lie. This, for instance, is not a crime because it was white man in a blue polyester uniform body slamming the chick into pavement.

Anyhoo...i understand that you think darkies committ more crimes because of 'socio-economic' things (it ain't their skin color, it's their culture! never heard that one before...), but I think if you counted a few more crimes committed by white folks, the disparity might not be so huge.
so you believe that police and others in position of power who abuse their power aren't prosecuted for such behavior?
sure they do. happens all the time.

the facts are easy to see and understand. people who have more to lose commit less crimes than people who don't have income/possessions.

that is true for any ethnic group. it isn't "the culture" (which ironically is what you seem to say in your first "crime nd the color of criminals" post).
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:05 AM   #9
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no....

I think you're just looking at this through really prejudiced eyes -- the idea that black people commit more crimes is something you accept as fact....I don't, obviously.

Suggesting that people in positions of power are routinely prosecuted for crimes kind of misses the point of being in a position of power, and suggesting that having more money leads one to commit fewer crimes is so silly that I can hardly respond.

(then again, for all I know Colombian drug lords commonly retire after amassing a few hundred thousand in savings and spend their days in their underwear playing the stock market and Texas Hold 'em on the internet)
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:36 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
no....

I think you're just looking at this through really prejudiced eyes -- the idea that black people commit more crimes is something you accept as fact....I don't, obviously.

Suggesting that people in positions of power are routinely prosecuted for crimes kind of misses the point of being in a position of power, and suggesting that having more money leads one to commit fewer crimes is so silly that I can hardly respond.

(then again, for all I know Colombian drug lords commonly retire after amassing a few hundred thousand in savings and spend their days in their underwear playing the stock market and Texas Hold 'em on the internet)
let's see, do I address your reading issues first or your falacious conclusions first?

let's start with your reading issues....
nowhere did I post that "black people commit more crimes". the very idea that you suggest such reveals a deep seated prejudice in your thoughts.

I did state that there is a "higher incidence of crimes committed by blacks as a % of the overall pop", which is factual as stated in the uniform crime report data. facts tend to trump prejudice.

as for the affect of income on criminal activity, well, if you dismiss this conclusion based on your experience with columbian drug lords you're just lost. the linkage has been empircally documented by researchers (such as jackson, eberts/schwirian and braithwaite), by both sociologists as well as economists, to name a few.

as for your dismissal that "that people in positions of power are routinely prosecuted for crimes kind of misses the point of being in a position of power", well, yes, people in power DO get prosecuted, so here again you are just wrong.

quite a troika of dubious acheivement in just one post...well done.
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:20 PM   #11
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Second question: Is it better for our society or is it in fact detrimental to our society to ignore certain things just because of the color of the skin of the person that is involved? Is that not contributing more to racism than it is retracting from it?

I just personally think that the people in this country need to get off of the "PC" kick and recognize that all people aren't, in fact, the same. Each culture is different and has its ups and downs. There's wealthy white people, and there's white trash. There's wealthy black people, and there's black trash. The difference seems to be between white and black "trash" is that the white trash seems to complain to no end and just get intoxicated until they finally end up either accepting that they've wasted their own lives or they do something horrible. Black "trash," on the other hand, doesn't only accept that way of life but they seem to hold it as being elite to the rest of any color society. They don't try to be something that they're not (white trash is a Folex watch), rather they hold up their "from the ghetto" mentality high in the air and call anyone that disagrees with it a racist.

Again, my original question remains.. How much of this is caused by the people living in those areas? Is this a result of residual racism condemning someone to a bad life, or is it a result of reverse racism and too much pride in a "culture" that should be shunned?

*Please understand that I absolutely love the black community. I don't know if any of you have ever sat and spent time with an old black man from the "ghetto" but they are the greatest people in the world. That being said I spent about 2 years working alongside nothing but black folk from Stop 6 and grew to love them like a family, a family that I felt bad for because they seem to never be able to break through the wall around them and instead gave into the hood mentality.

Each and every opportunity in the world may not be presented to each race equally, but that doesn't mean that each and every person doesn't have the chance to excel in their life beyond what some recognize.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:19 AM   #12
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nowhere did I post that "black people commit more crimes". ...

...I did state that there is a "higher incidence of crimes committed by blacks as a % of the overall pop.
Yes, you think it's a fact that blacks have a higher propensity to commit crimes than white folks. I don't accept this as a fact...

....except by definition as I stated in my very first post.....and when I say, 'by definition', I mean in the "Golden Rule" sense of how we define crime in our society (those with the gold make the rules). Paraphrasing one long since dead dude....'the laws are applied equally to the rich and poor alike, the poor cannot sleep on park benches or beg for bread and neither can the rich.'

In the case of sleeping on park benches and begging for bread, the poor unquestionably commit more crimes from a positivist point of view. That is not a fact I would argue except to say that it is pedantic and useless trivia. (I'm more of a natural law guy than a legal positivist guy, as you're no doubt aware)

So when I see the question "why do black people commit so many crimes compared to white people?", I see the implicit acceptance of a legal positivist world view buried in the premise of the question....accordingly I'm challenging the 'fact' that black people commit more crimes by challenging this implicit premise.

Which is to say, what if we defined 'crime' not as something which group 'a' passes judgment upon group 'b', but intead as an act of aggression (force or the threat of force) by any person or groups of people?

I don't know what the stats would look like but I suspect we wouldn't see quite the disparity.

anyhoo, we have different world views, and if you can't do better than whip my ass with a bunch orthodox, establishment liberal bromides than just leave it be.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
Yes, you think it's a fact that blacks have a higher propensity to commit crimes than white folks. I don't accept this as a fact...

....except by definition as I stated in my very first post.....and when I say, 'by definition', I mean in the "Golden Rule" sense of how we define crime in our society (those with the gold make the rules). Paraphrasing one long since dead dude....'the laws are applied equally to the rich and poor alike, the poor cannot sleep on park benches or beg for bread and neither can the rich.'

In the case of sleeping on park benches and begging for bread, the poor unquestionably commit more crimes from a positivist point of view. That is not a fact I would argue except to say that it is pedantic and useless trivia. (I'm more of a natural law guy than a legal positivist guy, as you're no doubt aware)

So when I see the question "why do black people commit so many crimes compared to white people?", I see the implicit acceptance of a legal positivist world view buried in the premise of the question....accordingly I'm challenging the 'fact' that black people commit more crimes by challenging this implicit premise.

Which is to say, what if we defined 'crime' not as something which group 'a' passes judgment upon group 'b', but intead as an act of aggression (force or the threat of force) by any person or groups of people?

I don't know what the stats would look like but I suspect we wouldn't see quite the disparity.

anyhoo, we have different world views, and if you can't do better than whip my ass with a bunch orthodox, establishment liberal bromides than just leave it be.
So you want to throw out all the "biased" laws that were made by "rich white people" that seem to "target" the "poor black people"? There are more black people in jail by both raw numbers and by population % than any other race. There are also far more white serial killers per % of population than of the black population. So if the numbers were skewed, why wouldn't there be more black serial killers, or do our racist police forces catch them before they amass a quantity to justify being called "serial killers"?

Maybe we need to stop giving black people an excuse by constantly crying over something that happened hundreds of years ago, IE slavery.
History Note: the first "slaves" were white, owned by a black man in Virginia.

Oh yeah, my wife is half black. :P
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:16 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
Yes, you think it's a fact that blacks have a higher propensity to commit crimes than white folks. I don't accept this as a fact...
hmm, well, whites commit more crimes than any other ethnic group, and it isn't a 1:1 ratio on crimes per person, so no your statement about "higher propensity" isn't really a fact at all.

Quote:
....except by definition as I stated in my very first post.....and when I say, 'by definition', I mean in the "Golden Rule" sense of how we define crime in our society (those with the gold make the rules). Paraphrasing one long since dead dude....'the laws are applied equally to the rich and poor alike, the poor cannot sleep on park benches or beg for bread and neither can the rich.'

In the case of sleeping on park benches and begging for bread, the poor unquestionably commit more crimes from a positivist point of view. That is not a fact I would argue except to say that it is pedantic and useless trivia. (I'm more of a natural law guy than a legal positivist guy, as you're no doubt aware)

So when I see the question "why do black people commit so many crimes compared to white people?", I see the implicit acceptance of a legal positivist world view buried in the premise of the question....accordingly I'm challenging the 'fact' that black people commit more crimes by challenging this implicit premise.

Which is to say, what if we defined 'crime' not as something which group 'a' passes judgment upon group 'b', but intead as an act of aggression (force or the threat of force) by any person or groups of people?

I don't know what the stats would look like but I suspect we wouldn't see quite the disparity.

anyhoo, we have different world views, and if you can't do better than whip my ass with a bunch orthodox, establishment liberal bromides than just leave it be.
perhaps your philosophical posturing about "natural law" can create an argument that violent crime such as murder, assault, rape and robbery are merely "passing judgement", but in my view they're just plain crimes, and very easy to see for what they are.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by alexamenos View Post
Yes, you think it's a fact that blacks have a higher propensity to commit crimes than white folks. I don't accept this as a fact...

....except by definition as I stated in my very first post.....and when I say, 'by definition', I mean in the "Golden Rule" sense of how we define crime in our society (those with the gold make the rules). Paraphrasing one long since dead dude....'the laws are applied equally to the rich and poor alike, the poor cannot sleep on park benches or beg for bread and neither can the rich.'

In the case of sleeping on park benches and begging for bread, the poor unquestionably commit more crimes from a positivist point of view. That is not a fact I would argue except to say that it is pedantic and useless trivia. (I'm more of a natural law guy than a legal positivist guy, as you're no doubt aware)

So when I see the question "why do black people commit so many crimes compared to white people?", I see the implicit acceptance of a legal positivist world view buried in the premise of the question....accordingly I'm challenging the 'fact' that black people commit more crimes by challenging this implicit premise.

Which is to say, what if we defined 'crime' not as something which group 'a' passes judgment upon group 'b', but intead as an act of aggression (force or the threat of force) by any person or groups of people?

I don't know what the stats would look like but I suspect we wouldn't see quite the disparity.

anyhoo, we have different world views, and if you can't do better than whip my ass with a bunch orthodox, establishment liberal bromides than just leave it be.
You do quite a nice job of arguing your anarchist rhetoric, and sometimes it even does give one pause for thought. Trouble is, though, we've been getting by--and getting by quite well, even in Hobbes' and Locke's time--with whatever "gold standard" you would wish to rail against.

At some point, Alexa, you gotta have standards. I know, I know...it is intellectually more stimulating not to...to think that good and bad are just ephemeral constructs. But when it gets to governance--which I KNOW you hate--at some point the rubber meets the road.

Admittedly, it's not something that everyone has the stomach for.
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Old 06-10-2009, 11:29 AM   #16
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It's blatantly obvious that not one of you understand the contrast and comparison between the positivist view of law and a natural rights view of law, so I'll try to dumb things down a little more....make it a lot more.

The question in the first post was (paraphrased) 'Why are so many people on the Dallas Sheriff's most wanted list black?'

Let's start by taking a look at the top 5 on the Dallas Sheriff's office website and their heinous crimes against humanity --

5. Charles Eugene Johnson, Possession of drug paraphanalia and fare evasion
4. Donald Ray Templeton, Unregistered vehicle and a variety of motor vehicle transgressions
3. Patrick Darnell Owens, Fare evasion and theft of service under $20
2. Kevin L. Smith, Fare evasion and Clerks II;

and the number one spot on Dallas' Most Wanted....

....brace yourself for the horror that follows....

1. Joel Israel Green, Fare evasion.

Basically we're talking about a bunch of guys jumping onto and off of Dart without paying their fare, possibly while carrying a roach clip.

So let's re-phrase the earlier question.....'if the law applies equally to rich Highland Park kids and Oak Cliff no-accounts, why aren't more rich highland park kids on the Dallas Sheriff's most wanted list for not paying their DART fares?

I humbly suggest here that the reason fewer highland park kids skip DART fares is because the DART doesn't go from Preston to Turtle Creek among other reasons....

What if we asked instead....'who is more likely to date rape a Tri-Delt during a drunken toga party following a lacross match, a rich white kid from Highland Park or 38 year old unemployed black dude from Oak Cliff?'

I think the answer here is obvious, and the more general point is that it's pretty easy to pick and choose the crimes in question in such a way as to disproportionately include one segment of society while excluding others. IOW, 'What are the deeper issues?' The deeper issue ain't that deep, it's just definitional.

(and I haven't even brought up the War on Drugs, which is far more likely to put a black guy selling a little weed into a prison than a white guy selling 12 year old single malt.)

Chum, as is his habit, inverts reality --

Quote:
At some point, Alexa, you gotta have standards. I know, I know...it is intellectually more stimulating not to...to think that good and bad are just ephemeral constructs. But when it gets to governance--which I KNOW you hate--at some point the rubber meets the road.
Chum is well aware that I am of the opinion that good and bad are not ephemeral constructs, but instead matters which apply to governments and government officials in the exact same manner as private institution and persons.

That is, I think it's wrong to point a gun at someone's head and take their shit and moreover I think this is true whether one is a no-account from Oak Cliff robbing a liquor store or an IRS agent acting at the behest of an angry mob of registered voters.

Hence, Chum mistakes my moral consistency for anarchy, as if opposition to institutionalized looting is support of chaos.

and for Mavdog and that other guy -- you guys need to work on your reading comprehension and thinking skills....seriously. I'm not saying rape, murder and (for that matter) skipping DART fares aren't crimes. You've wrongly inferred this from what I've written -- I'm saying other things are crimes but these crimes are under-counted in the quoted crimes statistics.
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:39 PM   #17
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after wading through the near intolerable level of arrogance contained in your post, the following comes to mind...

first, the reason these scofflaws are on the "most wanted" list is not because they have committed heinous crimes, but just the opposite...they have committed crimes of such minor, insignifigant levels that the authorities don't want to commit the resources to go and find them. if they had committed violent crimes they would have been found and thrown into jail.

notwithstanding the fact that these are indeed criminals, not victims of unfair and inequitable application of the law and their offenses reveal such. is wrong way driving not a crime and an act that endangers the rest of us who travel on the streets? absolutely, and it is indeed class blind. what about assault? check. speeding in a school zone? if my kids go to school where this occured the perpertrator is indeed a criminal, and a dangerous one at that, no matter which ethnicity and what economic class they are in. do you have an idea of the problems associated with being hit by a driver of a car who does not have insurance? to those who have, the person who flaunts this requirement of driving is indeed violating the law and no, this is not a law that is applied inequitably across class or racial lines.

fyi dart does go "from preston along turtle creek", it's just doen't have any park cities people riding on the bus but those who provide services to the park cities homes. and just who is hurt by the fare evasion of those listed? it isn't the people who live in the park cities, it's those who ride the dart bus daily and have to put up with buses that aren't as clean as they could be due to dart not receiving all the fares they should be getting because of people such as those on the list stealing from dart.

the answer to your theoretical date rape question is answered by another question: who is more likely to report and prosecute their being raped, a rich white girl from highland park or a 38 year old unemployed black chick from fair park?

yes, your assertions of "IRS agent acting at the behest of an angry mob of registered voters" being analogous to someone "robbing a liquor store" reveals a deep rooted anarchic perspective which quite frankly reveals a lack of "thinking skills".
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:44 PM   #18
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It's blatantly obvious that not one of you understand the contrast and comparison between the positivist view of law and a natural rights view of law, so I'll try to dumb things down a little more....make it a lot more.

The question in the first post was (paraphrased) 'Why are so many people on the Dallas Sheriff's most wanted list black?'

Let's start by taking a look at the top 5 on the Dallas Sheriff's office website and their heinous crimes against humanity --

5. Charles Eugene Johnson, Possession of drug paraphanalia and fare evasion
4. Donald Ray Templeton, Unregistered vehicle and a variety of motor vehicle transgressions
3. Patrick Darnell Owens, Fare evasion and theft of service under $20
2. Kevin L. Smith, Fare evasion and Clerks II;

and the number one spot on Dallas' Most Wanted....

....brace yourself for the horror that follows....

1. Joel Israel Green, Fare evasion.

Basically we're talking about a bunch of guys jumping onto and off of Dart without paying their fare, possibly while carrying a roach clip.

So let's re-phrase the earlier question.....'if the law applies equally to rich Highland Park kids and Oak Cliff no-accounts, why aren't more rich highland park kids on the Dallas Sheriff's most wanted list for not paying their DART fares?

I humbly suggest here that the reason fewer highland park kids skip DART fares is because the DART doesn't go from Preston to Turtle Creek among other reasons....

What if we asked instead....'who is more likely to date rape a Tri-Delt during a drunken toga party following a lacross match, a rich white kid from Highland Park or 38 year old unemployed black dude from Oak Cliff?'

I think the answer here is obvious, and the more general point is that it's pretty easy to pick and choose the crimes in question in such a way as to disproportionately include one segment of society while excluding others. IOW, 'What are the deeper issues?' The deeper issue ain't that deep, it's just definitional.

(and I haven't even brought up the War on Drugs, which is far more likely to put a black guy selling a little weed into a prison than a white guy selling 12 year old single malt.)

Chum, as is his habit, inverts reality --



Chum is well aware that I am of the opinion that good and bad are not ephemeral constructs, but instead matters which apply to governments and government officials in the exact same manner as private institution and persons.

That is, I think it's wrong to point a gun at someone's head and take their shit and moreover I think this is true whether one is a no-account from Oak Cliff robbing a liquor store or an IRS agent acting at the behest of an angry mob of registered voters.

Hence, Chum mistakes my moral consistency for anarchy, as if opposition to institutionalized looting is support of chaos.

and for Mavdog and that other guy -- you guys need to work on your reading comprehension and thinking skills....seriously. I'm not saying rape, murder and (for that matter) skipping DART fares aren't crimes. You've wrongly inferred this from what I've written -- I'm saying other things are crimes but these crimes are under-counted in the quoted crimes statistics.
http://www.dallassheriffsoffice.com/...Ten/top10.html

I don't see those petty crimeson the Dallas Sheriffs' Most Wanted list.

Maybe Arlington has something?

http://www.arlingtonpd.org/MostWanted/APDMostWanted.pdf

Or maybe the Dallas PD?

http://www.dallaspolice.net/index.cf...893&openid=193

They all seem to be serious crimes, so why are you listing examples of minor crimes?

The majority of crime stats use "violent crimes" as the main critieria. They aren't considering speeding violations, or parking tickets. So maybe blacks don't break more laws than whites, but they do when it comes to serious/violent crimes.

You consider tax collection a crime? Or "institutionalized looting" as you call it. You are using their services, so you have to pay. Yeah, you are forced to use it in alot of cases, but it is still something our society requires to keep it from breaking into utter chaos. You like having police available incase you need them? Or maybe the fire department? What about the military? Maybe you don't directly rely on them, but the chances you will need them in the future are enough to make it a good idea to pay for them.
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:47 PM   #19
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Haha - I love how you guys have turned a rich/poor issue into a black/white issue...

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Old 06-11-2009, 01:39 AM   #20
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Haha - I love how you guys have turned a rich/poor issue into a black/white issue...

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45 male
5 female
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:40 AM   #21
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45 male
5 female
47 - 20/20 vision
3 - corrective vision

(obviously people with glasses are much less likely to commit crimes...)


42 - Christian
8 - Non-Christian

(that could be reflective of the national population, but if you twist your mind enough, you might be able to convince yourself that it's because Christians have a higher propensity toward crime than non-Christians...)


50 - Carbon-based
0 - Nitrogen-based

(seriously - what was your point again??? I thought the purpose of this thread was to prove racial stereotypes through statistics...)



Here's a neat statistic that's true 99.9% of the time:

50 - Have-nots
0 - Haves

(because it ain't a crime for he who writes the rules!)
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:01 AM   #22
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With all this bickering said.

IMO. the deeper issue is acceptance (much forced) and the breakdown of the family structure.

Women usually think with their hearts and men logically (except when it comes to women). Mothers accept what young men do because they love them, where fathers usually don't accept these kinds of actions.

Back in the days of slavery, women were literally bred, and men were sold off as animals, the family structure was broken down badly.

Add to this men have gone off to war, and women to work -- women were emasculated and didn't need the man in the family structure.

Acceptance of unlawfulness, and even justifying it because of past wrongs has led to much criminal activity, and little peer pressure to stop it. Add to it the class system that is in the US (and around the world), and that the "easy" way to get into the next class is to do illegal things, and it is not just justified, it is thought to be a legitimate way.

Although there are criminals of every known race, I think that much is made of the numbers of Blacks because of how they are educated. Some feel like they as a race have been wronged, and they justify wrong for wrong. Most are taught from day one that they have had a bad background, and feel like they have to fight to get an even deal all their lives. Let's face it, most whites are not taught to have to fight against everyone and everything from the day they are born. I am also not saying that there isn't some justification because of the racism that has plagued the US.

I guess I am saying that, IMO, the breakdown of the family unit is the deepest issue, and that the way to resolve the issue is through better education and a shunning of people when they do wrong. It doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes a mother and a father dedicated to making sure that the child is reared properly, and them instilling in the child a sense of right and wrong.


I understand what Alex is saying, and he has a point, but it is more than just what the law is. It is the acceptance of breaking any laws.
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:42 AM   #23
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(seriously - what was your point again??? I thought the purpose of this thread was to prove racial stereotypes through statistics...)
[/QUOTE]

I don't think men are poorer than women, and I think that there are usually about as many men in a race as women.

If you want to change the subject from race v. income, then why don't you explain the difference between the number of men on the list v. the number of women? Is it because your rich/poor distinction doesn't do much?
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Old 06-11-2009, 12:07 PM   #24
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I don't think men are poorer than women, and I think that there are usually about as many men in a race as women.

If you want to change the subject from race v. income, then why don't you explain the difference between the number of men on the list v. the number of women? Is it because your rich/poor distinction doesn't do much?
You're looking at the numbers backwards... What difference does it make if 45 are men and 5 are women if all 50 are poor?

If I'm mugging you in the park, it's not because of my gender or race - it's because I don't have any money...

(is that so difficult to understand?)
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Old 06-11-2009, 12:09 PM   #25
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there is no debate that our criminal justice system has incidence of inequality based on the defendant's economic and/or social class. folks charged with a crime who are financially capable of hiring the best defense attorney will likely not face time in stripe city.

that being said, the times when the city's elite were immune from being prosecuted for illegal conduct is pretty much history. thank the fourth estate who are like a bunch of piranhas after the story and not letting it go away.

as for why people make the turn to being criminal, that's not an easy answer to find. breakdown in family certainly has an influence, as does the criminal's belief that they have little to lose. add to that the times when the criminal actually believes they can get away with the crime and the crime of passion, that basket includes most of the reasons.
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Old 06-11-2009, 01:32 PM   #26
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You're looking at the numbers backwards... What difference does it make if 45 are men and 5 are women if all 50 are poor?

If I'm mugging you in the park, it's not because of my gender or race - it's because I don't have any money...

(is that so difficult to understand?)
so your explanation for why there is such a disparity between men and women is to wave your hand and say, "it does not matter?" There is something very hard to understand there.
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Old 06-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #27
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so your explanation for why there is such a disparity between men and women is to wave your hand and say, "it does not matter?" There is something very hard to understand there.
I wasn't trying to explain the disparity of crime between men & women - I was pointing out that the MOTIVATION for crime does not stem from race/gender...

(you & I are not having the same conversation here...)


Also, you do realize you're taking a sample of 50 criminals from Dallas and applying those statistics to society as a whole, right?
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Old 06-11-2009, 01:50 PM   #28
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I wasn't trying to explain the disparity of crime between men & women - I was pointing out that the MOTIVATION for crime does not stem from race/gender...
I know. You say it stems from not having enough stuff.
But, then why are there more males than females?

Quote:
Also, you do realize you're taking a sample of 50 criminals from Dallas and applying those statistics to society as a whole, right?
no I'm not. I'd be happy if you just explained why there are 45 men and 5 women on this list.
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Old 06-11-2009, 02:04 PM   #29
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I'd be happy if you just explained why there are 45 men and 5 women on this list.
Gee, I dunno - maybe because women are busy raising kids?

Besides, we're talking about a very small geographical & date-sensitive sample - 5 years ago in Houston, the numbers could have just as easily have been 30 men to 20 women...

Basing a reality around such a small statistical sample is like looking outside right now and claiming that Dallas is generally a rainy city...
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Old 06-11-2009, 02:15 PM   #30
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Gee, I dunno - maybe because women are busy raising kids?
there's an explanation.

Quote:
Besides, we're talking about a very small geographical & date-sensitive sample - 5 years ago in Houston, the numbers could have just as easily have been 30 men to 20 women...

Basing a reality around such a small statistical sample is like looking outside right now and claiming that Dallas is generally a rainy city...
not really.
"Gender is the single best predictor of criminal behavior: men commit more crime, and women commit less. This distinction holds throughout history, for all societies, for all groups, and for nearly every crime category. The universality of this fact is really quite remarkable, even though many tend to take it for granted.
Read more: http://law.jrank.org/pages/1256/Gender-Crime.html#ixzz0I9O1KHSp&C"
http://law.jrank.org/pages/1256/Gender-Crime.html
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Old 06-11-2009, 02:29 PM   #31
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"Gender is the single best predictor of criminal behavior: men commit more crime, and women commit less. This distinction holds throughout history, for all societies, for all groups, and for nearly every crime category. The universality of this fact is really quite remarkable, even though many tend to take it for granted.
Read more: http://law.jrank.org/pages/1256/Gender-Crime.html#ixzz0I9O1KHSp&C"
http://law.jrank.org/pages/1256/Gender-Crime.html
Isn't there already a poster on this board named "Captain Obvious"?

Just because men commit more crimes doesn't mean they're motivated to commit those crimes simply because they're male - if that were the case, then there would be the same percentage of white men & black men (or rich men & poor men) in prison... Having a penis isn't why people are motivated to commit crimes (which is what you're flimsily implying...)
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Old 06-11-2009, 02:56 PM   #32
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To the best of my understanding, one's race or gender have no bearing as to one's propensity to commit a crime.

Yet, they can be used as a demographic to measure those who have committed crimes.

From this information, we can go into those categories to gather data behind what has brought the individual criminals within those demographics to commit those crimes.

The hope is to find some other common ground or factors that perhaps we as a society can do something about.

We are born the way we are...our race is predetermined, our gender is predetermined...in other words, it's not something that can be changed. (I know, some people can have surgeries...but that is not the point)

Some have pointed out economic differences as playing a part...so do we throw money at the problem and will they stop committing the crime?

What happens when the money runs out?

What about building up and teaching individuals...is it simply about teaching skills, or is there room to develop "Character" so that one can succeed in life, either rich or poor?

We've also read bits about the breakup of the family unit. How do we promote the value of family and foster a way for family to be built up in all communities?

Who can lead these messages within these communities?

Using the Race and Gender distinguishing criteria, who would the various demographics listen to and work to emulate in their life?

What happens when a "Leader" a "Role Model" and "Authority" within the various demographics is a poor example? How does this effect the actions of the group who follows that person?

How can someone from an alternate demographic be a positive influence and ultimately breakdown the stereotypes to have a lowered criminal count, if not ultimately crime free society?

How do we all respect one anothers differences, while finding a common ground of right/wrong that would allow us all to be grounded in a common reality?
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:29 PM   #33
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Isn't there already a poster on this board named "Captain Obvious"?

Just because men commit more crimes doesn't mean they're motivated to commit those crimes simply because they're male - if that were the case, then there would be the same percentage of white men & black men (or rich men & poor men) in prison... Having a penis isn't why people are motivated to commit crimes (which is what you're flimsily implying...)
I didn't imply it. I asked you to explain it. To that end, "The women are busy raising babies" was better than "people commit crimes because they don't have stuff"
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Old 06-11-2009, 05:13 PM   #34
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I didn't imply it. I asked you to explain it. To that end, "The women are busy raising babies" was better than "people commit crimes because they don't have stuff"
Once again, you & I are having two different conversations...

"Women raising babies" is in response to your post, "people commit crimes because they don't have stuff" is in response to everyone else's posts in this thread...

I could care less about the disparity of female criminals compared to male criminals in a 50 person pool in Dallas, TX - I'm talking about criminal MOTIVATION (a word you can find a few times in my posts...)

I'm pointing at a problem and you're looking at my finger...
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Old 06-11-2009, 06:33 PM   #35
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I could care less about the disparity of female criminals compared to male criminals in a 50 person pool in Dallas, TX -
It's not just a 50 person sample. Sex is a bigger predictor of criminality than anything else.

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I'm talking about criminal MOTIVATION (a word you can find a few times in my posts...).
great. Why are men more motivated than women? (If 'taking care of babies' is your only answer, then that's what it is.)
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Old 06-11-2009, 07:28 PM   #36
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It's not just a 50 person sample. Sex is a bigger predictor of criminality than anything else.
I don't understand why you're still playing the gender angle when it's obvious that financial standing is the primary motivation for crime...

Is a rich man more likely to mug someone than a poor woman?

I rest my case...

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great. Why are men more motivated than women?
I have no idea why men are more motivated to commit crime than women - you'll have to ask God that one...

(although an evolutionist might tell you that it's because men have traditionally been the hunters of our species, therefore more inclined toward violence...)




Personally, I'm more interested in the racial angle of this discussion - men & women are wired differently by nature, whereas race is a division of culture (and culture is a choice, to a certain degree...)
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:33 PM   #37
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I don't understand why you're still playing the gender angle when it's obvious that financial standing is the primary motivation for crime...

Is a rich man more likely to mug someone than a poor woman?
If you know only 1 thing about 4 different people:
1 is a man
1 a woman
1 a rich person
1 a poor person

Betting that the man is the criminal is the safest bet.

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I have no idea why men are more motivated to commit crime than women - you'll have to ask God that one...
I don't know why it's so hard to say, "my ideas cannot explain the data."

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(although an evolutionist might tell you that it's because men have traditionally been the hunters of our species, therefore more inclined toward violence...)
A spaghetti monsterist might say that men were created with a fork in one hand and a can of Parmesan in the other. Neither would explain why all the people on the list posted above (fare dodgers and traffic violators) are there, let alone why the demographics of such lists are as they are.


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Personally, I'm more interested in the racial angle of this discussion - men & women are wired differently by nature, whereas race is a division of culture (and culture is a choice, to a certain degree...)
That's funny cause just a few posts ago you were saying that people were wrong for trying to turn it into a discussion about race. (and race is largely biological; and sex (gender, anyway) is partly social).

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Old 06-11-2009, 11:56 PM   #38
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If you know only 1 thing about 4 different people:
1 is a man
1 a woman
1 a rich person
1 a poor person

Betting that the man is the criminal is the safest bet.
Stereotypes have nothing to do with motivation - why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

(thank god our laws aren't based on your "betting man" mentality...)


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I don't know why it's so hard to say, "my ideas cannot explain the data."
Or better yet - "the data has nothing to do with the ideas I'm expressing because the whole point of this thread is to discover the MOTIVES behind the data"... I don't know why you're trying to use these numbers to predict human behavior (that's the inherent folly of stereotypes!)


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Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin View Post
A spaghetti monsterist might say that men were created with a fork in one hand and a can of Parmesan in the other. Neither would explain why all the people on the list posted above (fare dodgers and traffic violators) are there, let alone why the demographics of such lists are as they are.
And penises do?

I'm glad it's so simple - I'll keep my guard up around men from now on (my boss might try to shiv me at work tomorrow because he's a man... Numbers don't lie!)


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Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin View Post
That's funny cause just a few posts ago you were saying that people were wrong for trying to turn it into a discussion about race. (and race is largely biological; and sex (gender, anyway) is partly social).
I didn't mean that I'm interested in supporting the racial angle of this discussion - I meant that I'm interested in hearing more from the people who were discussing race before you hijacked this thread with your gender angle... At least the gray area of "culture" makes the topic of race more open to discussion and debate (and the issue of wealth is even more fertile...)

Frankly, I think this thread got a lot weaker as soon as you & I decided to dance circles - hell, I'm embarrassed to admit that even 92bDad managed to stay on topic better than we did...
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:05 AM   #39
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I bet which of the four completed their completely free of charge (in a manner of speaking) public education would be more interesting than the gender or the race.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:11 AM   #40
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I bet which of the four completed their completely free of charge (in a manner of speaking) public education would be more interesting than the gender or the race.
I'd say education & wealth are definitely closer to the source than gender & race (after all, ignorance & greed can be found at the root of most of the world's problems...)
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