Dallas and Golden State, Five Player Trade. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dirkenstien · 11-12-2009, 11:36 AM

Golden State Gets:
Josh Howard
JJB
Shawne Williams

Dallas Gets:
Stephen Jackson
Monta Ellis

Dallas does it to increase talent level and take scoring pressure off of Dirk. Golden State does it to acquire some more Nellie guys while getting rid of a head ache in Stephen Jackson and to shed a lot of money in the process. Ellis has 5 years left on his contract and Jackson has 4 years left. Howard, JJB, and Williams are all expiring.

Dallas Lineup:

Dirk / Damp / Hump
Marion / Singleton / Thomas
Jackson / Ross
Ellis / Terry
Kidd / Ellis / Robo

or

Damp / Hump
Dirk / Singleton / Thomas
Marion / Ross
Jackson / Terry
Kidd / Ellis / Robo

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-12-2009, 11:46 AM

I like it. But the F.O. seems to have a never ending hard-on for both JJB and J-Ho so it's hard to imagine them actually pulling the trigger on it if offered.

DelNegro · 11-12-2009, 11:50 AM

Not sure that a return to Nellie ball is the direction the Mavs should be looking to go. IMO you guys would be better off keeping tabs on how bad things get in New Orleans and trying to pick off Emeka Okafor.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-12-2009, 11:57 AM

Okafor just got to NO and isn't going anywhere this season.

I disagree that Stephen Jackson and Curry are a "return to Nellie ball" or even a step back in any way, shape or form. Putting the two together talent wise anyone would have to say they are more talented than the combined talent of Josh Howard and JJB. Stephen Jackson is an upgrade at the 2 over Josh (not saying he's better than Josh, but better at that position) and Curry is a huge upgrade over JJB. Neither play much D at all, but Curry is a way better scorer.

Underdog · 11-12-2009, 11:58 AM

Josh Howard is definitely a "Nellie guy" (not to mention expiring) and Barea seems like he'd be a good fit in Nelie's scheme - I could see Golden State pulling the trigger if a better deal wasn't available (which might be hard to find since most teams can't eat Ellis & Jackson's salaries...)

A lineup of Kidd/Ellis/Jax/Matrix/Dirk would be pretty formidable...

Underdog · 11-12-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

Okafor just got to NO and isn't going anywhere this season.

I disagree that Stephen Jackson and Curry are a "return to Nellie ball" or even a step back in any way, shape or form. Putting the two together talent wise anyone would have to say they are more talented than the combined talent of Josh Howard and JJB. Stephen Jackson is an upgrade at the 2 over Josh (not saying he's better than Josh, but better at that position) and Curry is a huge upgrade over JJB. Neither play much D at all, but Curry is a way better scorer.

Curry? I thought we were talking about Ellis (who is also an upgrade over JJB, nonetheless...)

DelNegro · 11-12-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

Okafor just got to NO and isn't going anywhere this season.

Maybe, maybe not. They're a borderline playoff team who is well into the luxury tax. Not only for this year, but next year as well. They're obviously not going to trade Paul, and no one is going to want Peja. So if they're looking to dump salary Okafor and West are really their only two tradeable commodities.

Quote:

I disagree that Stephen Jackson and Curry are a "return to Nellie ball" or even a step back in any way, shape or form. Putting the two together talent wise anyone would have to say they are more talented than the combined talent of Josh Howard and JJB. Stephen Jackson is an upgrade at the 2 over Josh (not saying he's better than Josh, but better at that position) and Curry is a huge upgrade over JJB. Neither play much D at all, but Curry is a way better scorer.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but making a trade with Nellie to bring two of his guys to your team sure looks like a move towards Nellie ball to me. Fair point on Jackson being a better 2 than Josh, and I'll agree that the trade would leave the Mavs with a more talented roster. But would it be a better one? In the end aren't you still basically just trading one shot chucking wing player and an undersized guard who needs to dominate the ball for a different shot chucking wing player and undersized guard to needs to dominate the ball. (Although in Barea's case we can substitute "needs to" with "gets to"...) I just don't think the Mavs would be getting all that much bang for the buck when compared to what a true low post scorer could bring.

Just my $0.02........

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-12-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Curry? I thought we were talking about Ellis (who is also an upgrade over JJB, nonetheless...)

Excuse me I meant Ellis. Two skinny black point guards who shoot alot it's hard to diffrentiate.

Dirkenstien · 11-12-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

Not trying to pick a fight here, but making a trade with Nellie to bring two of his guys to your team sure looks like a move towards Nellie ball to me. Fair point on Jackson being a better 2 than Josh, and I'll agree that the trade would leave the Mavs with a more talented roster. But would it be a better one? In the end aren't you still basically just trading one shot chucking wing player and an undersized guard who needs to dominate the ball for a different shot chucking wing player and undersized guard to needs to dominate the ball. (Although in Barea's case we can substitute "needs to" with "gets to"...) I just don't think the Mavs would be getting all that much bang for the buck when compared to what a true low post scorer could bring.

Just my $0.02........

The way I look at it is it would essentially be the same type of set up we have here except better. We wouldn't necessarily be sacrificing traditional style for Nellie style, since the players would be similar in the type of production they offer. The only difference would be that we'd have more talent to acheive what we're trying to acheive with this team.

As far as a low post player, there really aren't that many available. Camby would be nice but he's a little too old to trade Howard for. Kaman would be good but I get the feeling they're going to try to hang on to him and wait to see how he and Griffin perform together.

We could always do this trade (or similar) and then trade Damp for a serviceable big with a loaded contract. Once Damp is cut, he will most likely come back here so we'll improve our talent / depth at all position and set ourselves up for a big push next season after the Damp trade.

quietsavant · 11-12-2009, 04:25 PM

Ellis and Nellie Confrontation
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakam...ltiple-fronts/

Quote:

Brief Ellis vs. Nelson confrontation in NY, now Warriors have public crises on multiple fronts

Posted by Tim Kawakami on November 12th, 2009 at 12:24 pm | Categorized as NBA, Warriors

Gotta do this quick because I wanted to write a 49ers/Singletary/Vernon Davis blog before I headed out to Candlestick this afternoon… naw, I don’t think that’s happening now.

Anyway, this recently in from Marcus Thompson II, who is covering the team in NY: Monta Ellis and Don Nelson had a brief verbal altercation at the end of practice. MT-2 was an eye and ear witness to it.

For all further details, follow MT-2. That’s mandatory. He’s all over this.

We talked just now and MT-2 told me generally that Ellis accused Nelson of blaming him for everything bad and that Nelson denied it and then walked away. (While I was writing this, MT-2’s blog post landed. MUST READ.)

This completely fits what I’ve been hearing for about a week: Ellis’ mood is at a boiling point and he was either about to or has already loudly told Warriors management just what he felt about the team’s direction, its roster, and its coach.

Ellis definitely feels like he’s being singled out by Nelson for blame–Nelson keeps saying that, as the veteran, Ellis is responsible for everybody running the right play or getting the defensive scheme right.

And, by the way, ELLIS WAS RIGHT that he shouldn’t be paired with Stephen Curry in the backcourt. (Is Don Nelson accountable for that horrible decision, now aborted? No.)

So, of course, Ellis will be blamed by the homer contingent. They’ll want him out as badly as they want SJax out, naturally.

They’re not wrong. The reasoning is wrong, but they’re not wrong: The Warriors have to move both Ellis and Jackson–their best two players, a two-front crisis–and then maybe a few more after that. (I dunno what you can get for Ellis. Teams will want him. But he still has almost 5 years and $55M left.)

They’ll have to keep moving guys for as long as Nelson is the coach, because that’s just what happens when you have an aging, tired, stubborn, team-destructive coach who has been given almost total power.

Gee, what a great idea to give Nelson total power! OK, maybe not total power, because if he had absolute control, Rob Kurz would be the Warriors’ starting center right now.

Back to Ellis…

I doubt Ellis will go officially Stack Jack and publicly demand a trade, then talk and talk about it.

But I believe Ellis may have already told Robert Rowell & Co. that he would not at all be unhappy if he was shipped elsewhere and that he’s exhausted by the political drama that is part of every day life with the Warriors.

Really, once Nelson and Larry Riley drafted Curry, the die was cast: Ellis was going to have to leave. Not many people wanted to hear that when it happened… but it was true.

Maybe this development was inevitable ever since the scooter accident and 30-game suspension and void threat and grievance (which is still alive, as far as I know).

Things have been tense for over a year, and the Warriors PR spin could not cover that up, though they tried.

So now you have Ellis ready to blow at a moment’s notice. You have SJax, obviously. You have Anthony Randolph percolating.

You have Andris Biedrins eyeing things carefully (though he’s not with the team due to his injury). You have Ronny Turiaf who used to be with the Lakers and cannot believe what he’s seeing here. Turiaf was not thrilled last year, either. He plays his butt off. Not many other Warriors do.

There’s no big reason to. If the coach and management don’t care, why should the players?

You have a whole lot going on. The veil is being lifted. The Warriors are a Meltdown happening before our eyes, if you just open them.

You can blame Ellis and SJax if you want. It’s amazing how unlucky this wise and benevolent Warriors franchise gets, by ending up with all these cantakerous players! Gee, every year for 15 straight years!

What bad luck. (Sarcasm alert.)

Dirkenstien · 11-12-2009, 05:25 PM

Even more reason for them to do this deal

dalmations202 · 11-12-2009, 05:58 PM

why would Dallas want in that storm?

Why would Ellis be happy with the ball in Kidds hands?
Why would SJax be happy behind Dirk and Marion in the pecking order?

Nuke central IMO if you take both.

Robillion · 11-12-2009, 06:45 PM

Ellis and SJax are unhappy because they are with Nellie and the terrible warriors. To me it is understandable. The media is portraying SJax like Starbury and I do not think it is the same.

I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

dude1394 · 11-12-2009, 06:53 PM

Nellie just about runs his welcome out everywhere it seems.

Dirkgreatness · 11-12-2009, 07:50 PM

Oh man, yes to do this trade. DO IT DONNIE!

Zki41 · 11-13-2009, 12:46 AM

This trade clearly upgrades our roster .. it will be quite a financial commitment.

Ellis >>>> JJB
S-Jax = Josh

With Ellis we can really afford to rest Kidd more ... Ellis would get minutes as back up PG and SG, S-Jax would essentially got Josh's minutes.

The only real problem would be which player gets to start at SG

LonghornDub · 11-13-2009, 03:19 AM

I would welcome Ellis with open arms. S-Jax is a downgrade from Josh, both in terms of balling ability and behavior.

chumdawg · 11-13-2009, 03:59 AM

Stephen Jackson is crazier than a shithouse rat.

sefant77 · 11-13-2009, 04:58 AM

Ellis and Jax are assholes and close friends, i would be scared about the lockerroom.

From the talent we should do it of course. But Ellis has a long contract and still issues about his health..

But i also could live with such a trade:

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade...radeid=5280313

But with the Delonte West drama in Cleveland i kind of expect Jax to land in Cleveland...

Dirkenstien · 11-13-2009, 02:40 PM

I wouldn't really be concerned with the locker room. Both guys are upset right now because they want to win and instead of being in a positive winning environment or constructive rebuilding scenario they're just being plugged into Nelson's fantasy circus.

I don't think they'd have any problems joining a team with championship aspirations and featuring unselfish stars in Dirk and Kidd. Jackson has even stated he wants to be traded to one of the three Texas teams.

Kidd Karma · 11-13-2009, 06:16 PM

Just on sheer talent I do the deal. If GSW does the deal, they will take a huge hit from the fan base. Not only because of Howard's injury, but Barea? PR wise it sucks. From the Mavs point of view, it gets you to 60 wins this year. Jackson's ability to defend, control the offense are huge. He knows when to shoot, when to pass, 15 dimes the other night. He did play with Duncan and won a ring there, so he has an idea that he will not be cover child of the Mavs. this would take a lot of pressure off Kidd, Dirk. He is actually the KG in your face type of player who can drive effort out of teammates. I think Ellis and Dirk can bridge the gap to the next generation of Mavs. Ellis is still scoring at a good pace. He's been healthy for every game this year. Not too worried about that moped injury at this point. 30 games is a good view. Ellis is actually playing a lot of 2 guard alongside Curry, I think with a player like Kidd, ellis should thrive.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-13-2009, 07:08 PM

Well Josh is out indefinetely with his ankle AGAIN. You can argue he's better than Jackson, but not if he's not on the court.

Kidd Karma · 11-13-2009, 07:49 PM

Unfortunately for GSW, Howard with the bad ankle maybe gold to Nellie when compared to the crap he has in Jax and Ellis.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-13-2009, 08:07 PM

Well GS would be thinking of Howard as an expiring as well if this were to occur. They could either resign him or take the savings. With the mess that it is there I cant see why Josh himself would want to re-sign there.

mac222b · 11-14-2009, 02:06 AM

we'd have to do this trade if it were available. Ellis is a really tough cover. gets to the hoop almost at will. and as Kidd Karma said we can use some of S-Jax attitude. he doesn't back down. not crazy about Kidd, Ellis, Terry backcourt defensively. GSW would have to be really desperate to do this deal. both have huge contracts but both are really good players. if we could somehow pull this off we're the best team in the West. add an athletic post presence and we're the favorites to win the whole thing.