Dirk does NOT win MVP - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

madape · 04-25-2006, 09:39 AM

The truth is that there are several players who you could say "deserve" the MVP award. The national media convinced themselves again that either LeBron, Kobe, or Nash's wonderful seasons earned them the spot ahead of Dirk.

Let's face it, to the media, Dirk remains a limited player... limited by a "one-dimensional" game that doesn't translate to wins in he playoffs (he is a big, white Euro after all). Fair or unfair, Dirk will need to overcome the reputation that he has fairly or unfairly earned. Playoff victories will get him there. If he can string together games like the one he put together last night, it will go far to dispelling some of the preconceived notions of his limitations.

kg_veteran · 04-25-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madape

Let's face it, to the media, Dirk remains a limited player... limited by a "one-dimensional" game that doesn't translate to wins in he playoffs (he is a big, white Euro after all). Fair or unfair, Dirk will need to overcome the reputation that he has fairly or unfairly earned. Playoff victories will get him there. If he can string together games like the one he put together last night, it will go far to dispelling some of the preconceived notions of his limitations.

You make a good point about the uninformed media, but do you really think playoff success will make a difference? Even if the Mavs win a title this year or next, I doubt Dirk wins an MVP award.

sixeightmkw · 04-25-2006, 09:52 AM

I agree Ape. The media just needs to use the same criteria for each player. Most of the players are one dimentional when you get to it. Nash is all offense, no defense. Kobe is all flash and no teamplay which he has always done in one way or another by either complaining about it or actually doing it, Lebron is no defensive specialist. But I just don't really care anymore. They have labeled Dirk and he will have to average 30+ in the playoffs, 10+ boards and win a championship 3 years in a row for them to consider him.

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 12:29 PM

The odd thing is this.... What Madape said is probably true to an extent, but why did the same not apply to Nash last year? Dirk has traditionally been a strong playoff performer whereas Nash's numbers had traditionally dropped off once in the post season. Yet, he managed to win the award last year.

It's truly difficult to get a feel as to what goes on in the minds of some. I think much of it has to do with an anti Mavs bias in general. But, with AJ in here now and less public whining from Cuban, that'll slowly change.

Am I upset about Dirk not winning the MVP? No, not really. I truthfully believe that there were 1 or 2 guys that could also make a legit claim to the MVP award.

Five-ofan · 04-25-2006, 12:32 PM

If lebron wins im not upset. If anyone else does and dirk gets worse than second, this is a joke.

Five-ofan · 04-25-2006, 02:57 PM

BTW just as a point of refference dirk has lead the nba in win shares the last 2 years. He has 51 this year which is tied for 9th highest all time. 6 of the better numbers are MJ. 1 is the utterly dominant shaq of 2000. 1 is david robinson's 1994 season. The two that he is tied with are Magics 1990 season and Robinsons 1995 season. (Billups has 49, Lebron has 47, kobe has 40 and Nash has 35) Here is a side by side list of Win shares leaders for the year on the left and mvps for that season on the right.
Win shares leader MVP
2006Dirk ?
2005Dirk Nash
2004KG KG
2003Duncan Duncan
2002Duncan Duncan
2001Shaq AI(Pretty much accepted that shaq should have won)
2000Shaq Shaq
1999Malone/shaq(tied) Malone
1998Malone Jordan
1997Jordan Malone
1996Jordan Jordan
1995Drob Drob
1994Drob Hakeem
1993Jordan Barkley
1992Jordan Jordan
1991Jordan Jordan
1990Jordan Magic
1989Jordan Magic
1988Jordan Jordan
1987Magic Magic
1986Bird Bird
1985Bird Bird

Basically what we get out of this is that Dirk is now getting close to MJ and shaq as far as getting screwed out of mvps. Dirk is about to become the first person in nba history to lead the league in win shares in consecutive years without getting an mvp out of the equation. Jordan and malone stole mvps from each other so it kinda balanced out. Overall this has been a decent indicator of who would be the mvp until now.

Edit - Jordan led in 89 and 90 without winning an mvp in either of THOSE years but its also universally recognized that jordan could have won it every year.

Flamethrowers42 · 04-25-2006, 03:04 PM

I am not surprised that Dirk won't win the MVP. I am not surprised at the medias take on Dirks game. He's a Maverick, maybe in more ways than one.

madape · 04-25-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

The odd thing is this.... What Madape said is probably true to an extent, but why did the same not apply to Nash last year? Dirk has traditionally been a strong playoff performer whereas Nash's numbers had traditionally dropped off once in the post season. Yet, he managed to win the award last year.

It's truly difficult to get a feel as to what goes on in the minds of some. I think much of it has to do with an anti Mavs bias in general. But, with AJ in here now and less public whining from Cuban, that'll slowly change.

Am I upset about Dirk not winning the MVP? No, not really. I truthfully believe that there were 1 or 2 guys that could also make a legit claim to the MVP award.

Nash won for the same reason that guys like Doc Rivers win coach of the year honors. Writers like guys that can take a team that is absolute crap and turn them into something great in one year's time. It's very easy to see the impact they player/coach has.

Both LeBron and Kobe were able to propel their teams to much greater heigths than the previous year with no real change in the team's makeup other than a massive improvements in each's own individual performances. Furthermore, it's clear that both are primarily responsible for their teams' success. That's why I think you'll see them ranked #1, #2 in the MVP vote. Nash might have a chance because of the Amare factor... but I'm thinking LeBron #1, Kobe #2, Dirk #3, Nash #4.

rabbitproof · 04-25-2006, 04:25 PM

If true..

THIS IS A ROBBERY!!

May all you soul-less beat writers toss and turn through many, many sleepless nights.

Dortmund · 04-25-2006, 04:44 PM

Dirk will have to win the title before the NBA "experts" consider Dirk MVP material. I swear the NBA analyists are the worst from any sport. I could predict more things than them.

FINtastic · 04-25-2006, 05:20 PM

Five-o, that win shares thing you mention is pretty interesting to look at. You don't mind explaining it to because I don't know really what it is.

kg_veteran · 04-25-2006, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Five-o, that win shares thing you mention is pretty interesting to look at. You don't mind explaining it to because I don't know really what it is.

http://basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

raefformvp · 04-25-2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dortmund

Dirk will have to win the title before the NBA "experts" consider Dirk MVP material. I swear the NBA analyists are the worst from any sport. I could predict more things than them.

I know what you are saying here, but I don't get it. How many titles does Nash have? Yet he still won the award. If Lebron wins, same thing. No rings. I don't understand the media bias toward Dirk. It just plain sucks. The guy is amazing. Period. Nothing short of amazing. The mvp award is a joke.

dirno2000 · 04-25-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dortmund

Dirk will have to win the title before the NBA "experts" consider Dirk MVP material. I swear the NBA analyists are the worst from any sport. I could predict more things than them.

The thing is, It's not just analyst. They mentioned during Sunday's Nuggets/Clipps game that Mike Dunleavy said if he had an MVP vote it would go to Steve Nash. Then today I heard Jeff Van Gundy on Dan Patrick and, when pressed, he said he'd go with Kobe for MVP.

Dirk for MVP seems so obvious but apparently it's not nearly as obvious to non-Mavs fans...even those who watch the game closer then your average "analyst".

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 06:57 PM

Well guys, lets be honest too... I mean I would vote for Dirk NO QUESTION, but we are also a bit biased... LeBron and Kobe are both amazing... They are both incredible, and I think we forget that when we talk about potential MVPs. We look at Kobe and say RAPIST this and TERRIBLE RECORD that and we say he shouldn't be considered, but that is just silly really. He is UNBELIEVABLE. The same can be said about LeBron... He has an average record and is so young so we want to say HE WILL WIN MANY MORE, GIVE IT TO DIRK NOW, but Dirk only has him in rebounds by a couple, and LeBron has him in points AND assists. Sure, Dirk proves to be more efficient, i.e. give Dirk more shots and he has the same points, but I am just saying...

Bottom line, all three are deserving... In my opinion, it is only between Dirk and LeBron simply because of records, but I think they all could win and I still wouldn't complain.

Hopefully Dirk pulls it out though!

bernardos70 · 04-25-2006, 07:01 PM

Burn the heretic!
Actually, that's a pretty good analysis that I happent agree with.

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madape

Nash won for the same reason that guys like Doc Rivers win coach of the year honors. Writers like guys that can take a team that is absolute crap and turn them into something great in one year's time. It's very easy to see the impact they player/coach has.

Both LeBron and Kobe were able to propel their teams to much greater heigths than the previous year with no real change in the team's makeup other than a massive improvements in each's own individual performances. Furthermore, it's clear that both are primarily responsible for their teams' success. That's why I think you'll see them ranked #1, #2 in the MVP vote. Nash might have a chance because of the Amare factor... but I'm thinking LeBron #1, Kobe #2, Dirk #3, Nash #4.

I also understand the issue with the turnaround by Phoenix. But, one could easily point out that they had a healthy and more mature Amare..

In my opinion, Nash received entirely too much credit for the Suns turnaround last year.

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

Well guys, lets be honest too... I mean I would vote for Dirk NO QUESTION, but we are also a bit biased... LeBron and Kobe are both amazing... They are both incredible, and I think we forget that when we talk about potential MVPs. We look at Kobe and say RAPIST this and TERRIBLE RECORD that and we say he shouldn't be considered, but that is just silly really. He is UNBELIEVABLE. The same can be said about LeBron... He has an average record and is so young so we want to say HE WILL WIN MANY MORE, GIVE IT TO DIRK NOW, but Dirk only has him in rebounds by a couple, and LeBron has him in points AND assists. Sure, Dirk proves to be more efficient, i.e. give Dirk more shots and he has the same points, but I am just saying...

Bottom line, all three are deserving... In my opinion, it is only between Dirk and LeBron simply because of records, but I think they all could win and I still wouldn't complain.

Hopefully Dirk pulls it out though!

Kobe cannot be considered. The Lakers poor record completely falls on his shoulders. He did drive Shaq off the team. That itself completely knocks him out of the MVP race.

rabbitproof · 04-25-2006, 07:35 PM

While what DanMale is saying is true (race is wide-open, many competitive candidates, different favorite depending metric), homerism must prevail when the call is close!!

Unfortunately, if Dirk does not win, I will think it is because the Dirk pick is just the least sexy of all the picks. You go with the other candidates, you have a sexy story. Whether it's Kobe bringing the Lakers back to the playoffs, Nash overcoming Amare loss, LBJ going to the next level, Billups leading his 64-win team... Dirk's very good at everything but he isn't the best at any one thing (record improvement, name power, statistical improvement, overall record). The sexiest angle Dirk has going for him is that he's the lone All-Star on a 60-win team, which is damn impressive, but is not as sexy of a story as others. Even the way he pads his numbers isn't very sexy, it's rather subtle for 26-9. Mavs fans themselves are often surprised at the end of the night at Dirk's line.

I defintely believe Dirk is the new Duncan. Thus, I also firmly believe that clinching the #1 seed would've sent the trophy to Dirk. He is the new superstar standard for consistency IMO.

If TD is the Big Fundamental, Dirk is the Big Consistent, the Big Every Night.

Edit: Just to add, I would give it to him as the #4 seed, too. As far as being the main reason why his team always has a chance to win, Dirk is the man and the man alone. Our Dallas team is always competitive every game and he is the primary reason. You can not say that about any other major candidate.

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Kobe cannot be considered. The Lakers poor record completely falls on his shoulders. He did drive Shaq off the team. That itself completely knocks him out of the MVP race.

See... That is just silly homerism... Something to knock his amazing abilities so that our superstar can rise above him... Again, I would pick Dirk over all three of them, but saying Kobe is knocked out of the running due to him making Shaq leave town is just silly IMHO...

The bottom line is that VERY FEW if any guys could take the Lakers squad minus Kobe to the playoffs, and that HAS to be considered.

Again, give me Dirk every time, but Kobe and LeBron deserve the MVP consideration!

By the way... I completely agree with Proof Rabbit!

dude1394 · 04-25-2006, 08:10 PM

Bron-bron will probably be shoved down our throats. Yuck.

So I wonder if the Wizards win tonight if all of the highlights will be about bron-bron anyway? Seems Arenas didn't score in the last one.

dirno2000 · 04-25-2006, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately, if Dirk does not win, I will think it is because the Dirk pick is just the least sexy of all the picks.

I think you hit on it here. Like I said a couple of weeks ago, all things being equal, the media will gravitate towards the best story. There's no compelling story behind Dirk winning it.

I imagine being German doesn't help either.

dude1394 · 04-25-2006, 08:22 PM

NO WAY Showbe should get it. I'll be pretty sick if Nash is elevated to Larry Bird status and even more sick if bron-bron is shoved down my throat.

But the lakers are 13th!! 13th in the league standings. Fuggedabout it. If his stats were head and shoulders over everyone maybe, but he's only two ppg ahead of iverson and he takes two more shots/game.

No way he should get it.

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

See... That is just silly homerism... Something to knock his amazing abilities so that our superstar can rise above him... Again, I would pick Dirk over all three of them, but saying Kobe is knocked out of the running due to him making Shaq leave town is just silly IMHO...

The bottom line is that VERY FEW if any guys could take the Lakers squad minus Kobe to the playoffs, and that HAS to be considered.

Again, give me Dirk every time, but Kobe and LeBron deserve the MVP consideration!

By the way... I completely agree with Proof Rabbit!

Why is it homerism ya dumb peckerhead? I haven't said that I believe that Dirk should win the MVP. I said that Kobe should not. It's the Most Valuable Player. If you run Shaq off, you're not the MVP. You take your team OUT OF THE RUNNING FOR A TITLE by doing so.

And I do believe that other players could take the Lakers to the playoffs. I believe that alot of players would actually help to make his teammates better instead of freezing them out of the offense entirely regardless of the situation. Lamar Odom was once a very talented and up and coming player. Hell, not anymore. All he needed was Kobe to screw up his career.

twelli · 04-25-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I think you hit on it here. Like I said a couple of weeks ago, all things being equal, the media will gravitate towards the best story. There's no compelling story behind Dirk winning it.

I imagine being German doesn't help either.

That's exactly the reason why LeBron will get the MVP. The media and the NBA as a whole lives from those superstar success stories. Youngest player this, youngest player that, that's what the media wants and that's what the average fan wants. So, if the stats and the team's success for Dirk and LeBron are somewhat comparable. LeBron will always win. I expect the next season all being about the duel between LeBron and Wade. Kobe, T-Mac, KG, Timma, Dirka,... will slowly but steadily fade when it comes to media attention.

Just hope this has no impact on the officiating of games... I guess behind the scenes the media would love to pull some strings to get LeBron all the way through to the finals this year.

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Why is it homerism ya dumb peckerhead? I haven't said that I believe that Dirk should win the MVP. I said that Kobe should not. It's the Most Valuable Player. If you run Shaq off, you're not the MVP. You take your team OUT OF THE RUNNING FOR A TITLE by doing so.

And I do believe that other players could take the Lakers to the playoffs. I believe that alot of players would actually help to make his teammates better instead of freezing them out of the offense entirely regardless of the situation. Lamar Odom was once a very talented and up and coming player. Hell, not anymore. All he needed was Kobe to screw up his career.

I could call you a dumb #$%#$% (edited by U2 - focus on Cricket slow man!

), because you are trying to push me, but I wont... I will just say that you are wrong and I would imagine almost everyone in the WORLD would agree with me... Sure, some here would say the same you will because they simply hate him, but he is A M A Z I N G! Knocking Kobe's ability to win the MVP because of decisions he MIGHT, (do you have proof that Kobe called the owner and told him that it was him or Shaq - or is it possible that Buss decided to keep the younger of the two???), have made in previous years is STUPID!

Regarding others taking the Lakers to the playoffs, that is just silly. There MIGHT be One or Two guys that could do the same. Odom has always been a career underachiever... Yeah, he was an up and coming player for the Clipps... He was RIGHT THERE... Please!

Mihm
Cook
Odom
FILL IN
Parker

Name the guys that lead that squad to the playoffs!!! Oh, don't forget, he has Kwame Brown and Luke Walton as reserves... HURRY, HURRY... LIST THEM ALL!

Please... List them all NOW!

Edit: By the way... Odom's career best in Rebounds was 10.2 and he was at 9.3 this year, (3rd best overall in his career), and Odom's career best in Points was 17.2 and he was at 14.8 this year, (5th best overall in his career and 1 pt under his career avg). Being a career 15.8 pts and 8.5 rb guy, I guess he wasn't hindered quite as much as you thought was he?

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 08:55 PM

I doubt that Kobe wins the MVP... And could I care less about what most people in the world believe? Why do they believe it? Because they see it on SportsCenter?

Dan, you're smarter than that.

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I doubt that Kobe wins the MVP... And could I care less about what most people in the world believe? Why do they believe it? Because they see it on SportsCenter?

Dan, you're smarter than that.

I doubt that Kobe wins it myself... I think that LeBron wins it, but I believe that Dirk SHOULD win it...

And most people should believe in Kobe's talent because it is FACT, not because SportsCenter says so... He is absolutely amazing... Just like LeBron is... And just like Dirk is...

AxdemxO · 04-25-2006, 08:58 PM

Wooww...Male23Dan...."Odom has been a career underachiever"....I dont think soo
It was him and Wade tht led Miami to the playoffs the year before Shaq got there
Before tht the mann played for the Clipps...now come on
So basically u dont know wht ur talking bout, becaause Odom has the talent to be a top 10 player in this league and playing with Kobe.hurt him a lot.

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Wooww...Male23Dan...."Odom has been a career underachiever"....I dont think soo
It was him and Wade tht led Miami to the playoffs the year before Shaq got there
Before tht the mann played for the Clipps...now come on
So basically u dont know wht ur talking bout, becaause Odom has the talent to be a top 10 player in this league and playing with Kobe.hurt him a lot.

One word... Moron!

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

I doubt that Kobe wins it myself... I think that LeBron wins it, but I believe that Dirk SHOULD win it...

And most people should believe in Kobe's talent because it is FACT, not because SportsCenter says so... He is absolutely amazing... Just like LeBron is... And just like Dirk is...

No one said that Kobe wasn't talented. I said that him not being a TEAM PLAYER eliminates him from being the MVP.

AxdemxO · 04-25-2006, 09:06 PM

Why are u even tryin to have this arguement when every1 knows that Kobe is selfish and makes players around him worse.

I agree wit Murph

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Why are u even tryin to have this arguement when every1 knows that Kobe is selfish and makes players around him worse.

I agree wit Murph

I am glat you agre wit murph... Maybe u can give reson y you agree wit murph oder dan him bn selfsh...

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

No one said that Kobe wasn't talented. I said that him not being a TEAM PLAYER eliminates him from being the MVP.

I guess I simply disagree due to the talent he has around him... If you put Dirk on that team, I hope Dirk puts up as many shots as Kobe has! I guess that has a lot to due with my opinion on the matter!

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-25-2006, 10:01 PM

The MVP is unjust. Dirk really deserved it. Too bad people don't appreciate nor respect the Dallas Mavericks.

Murphy3 · 04-25-2006, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male23Dan

I guess I simply disagree due to the talent he has around him... If you put Dirk on that team, I hope Dirk puts up as many shots as Kobe has! I guess that has a lot to due with my opinion on the matter!

He probably puts up a similar amount of points...and I'd imagine that he'd help to make Odom better than what Kobe has.

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

He probably puts up a similar amount of points...and I'd imagine that he'd help to make Odom better than what Kobe has.

Your opinion!

I disagree, but that is fine... They are both deserving and are both superstars...

We are just bickering at this point to bicker!

dirno2000 · 04-25-2006, 10:25 PM

Dirk couldn't make Odom any better than he is and neither can Kobe. When Odom decides he wants to dominate he'll dominate...until then he'll just be a pretty good player.

nashtymavsfan13 · 04-25-2006, 10:44 PM

The MVP is a joke, Dirk got robbed. Why don't they just change the name to MPP, Most Popular Player.

Male30Dan · 04-25-2006, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Dirk couldn't make Odom any better than he is and neither can Kobe. When Odom decides he wants to dominate he'll dominate...until then he'll just be a pretty good player.

Nicely said!