A NON-Conspiracy view of the Mavs - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

92bDad · 04-01-2008, 09:15 AM

Let me put my other opinions away for one thread.

This Mavs team has gone through the battle and lost. They have reverted back to a soft team and there is no sign of life. There is nothing that shows us that this team has the mental, let alone the physical toughness to compete at that Championship level.

Saddly this team is a magnification of what we observed from one of the Mavs former players. Micheal Finley.

When Fin was here, he went through the battles of turning a loserville organization into a highly entertaining winner. However, many where saying then that the Mavs would not be the big time NBA team until someone else on the Mavs actually stepped up and became better than Finley. That player was and is Dirk Nowitski, who in his own rights has been through the battle of NBA growth and has played his way into a potential Hall of Fame type career.

Now in Finley's final days with Dallas, he became jump shooting happy. Don't get me wrong, he was a jump shooter before, but occasionaly he would drive, he would dunk, he would do some inside dirty work...but in his last days, we rarely if ever saw the dirty work. He was content with taking jump shots.

The jump shots would come and go...hot on some days, enough to get you over 30 and cold on other days to the point of not even scoring in double digits.

It's the same thing today with the entire Maverick team. They are not doing the dirty work. They are NOT tough. They settle, jump shot after jump shot. They are lax on "D" allowing other teams to do what they want in the paint...at least the stronger heart felt teams that are competing and hungry to get to the playoffs and possibly to a Championship.

Now I am not here to "Blame" anyone...it is just an observation of what has happened. I believe Avery is trying with everything he has to rally the troops, but for what ever reason the players are NOT finding the will to be that team.

I have seen this with other teams in other sports...now is the real test of owner Mark Cuban. How willing is he to let go of this project and rebuild?

This may very well be a new chapter that could take another 3-10 years to turn around.

I don't believe that ANY of the current players will be with the Mavs as an active player the next time we have a shot at winning a title.

Is Mark Cuban ready to do the work to rebuild this thing? Does he have the stomach to go through the battles one more time?

He's done a Great job building it to what we had...can he do it again?

DLord · 04-01-2008, 10:18 AM

While I agree with much of your analysis, I depart company on both the core cause and the cure you name. You think the players have reverted, and it will take a massive roster change. I disagree completely.

I think the players are - for the most part - still incredibly capable of doing the "right things" to win big here. But I think that, for certain reasons, the coaching that tells those players "how we want it done" has regressed significantly.

Sure, we continuously hear Avery whine that the players don't attack the basket. But don't be deceived - this is the same coach who complains about the lack of defense while choosing to prioritize minutes for players who lack the ability to play good defense. And you can't just tell a player "drive to the basket more" and get results, unless at the same time you are putting him in position with the ball to be able to get that done. So when Avery says, "We just didn't attack the hoop" don't lose sight of the fact that the coach saying that is playing jump-shooters over rim-attackers and isn't teaching plays to open lanes to the basket. The results are predictable (at least to everyone not named Avery) who afterwards continues to bemoan a team that didn't attack.

Yes a year and more ago, this was more of a traditional team than it is now. But Avery Johnson ran off his assistant coach who designed those successful schemes, in favor of Avery's belief that he could be Nellie-Jr, and he intentionally set out to invent the next generation of Super Small Ball in Dallas, with just enough Dampier to help a bit plus smaller players in rotation spots 6-7-8-9 who would replace the starting Big Ballers with a smaller lineup that would dominate (at least in his mind).

As a result, this team has become a weird stew with no particular strengths and no particular identity, inconsistent defense, and has lost everything they worked to build over the past few years. They don't know who they are or where to go to get the crunch-time baskets, and have no confidence at all in winning close hard games.

Get a new coach who can (a) create a focused identity, and (b) has the nuts to surround himself with assistants SMARTER than himself, and this team will soar again. The talent is already here and is as motivated as it gets. But while they have someone who pushes them to play hard (and they do), they aren't getting any wisdom and direction in which direction to be pushed.

It's fixable, with THESE players. Wait and see.

jthig32 · 04-01-2008, 10:37 AM

Man, what a fantatstic post.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-01-2008, 10:39 AM

I agree that it is fixable with a new coach. I mean J-ho is averaging an astounding 30 ppg in the last 4 games. Like Jason Terry...I've seen him play defense and run the ball and distribute and such, but he doesn't do it with consistency. Noone does anything with any type of consistency or confidence anymore minus Dirk.

Ditch the coach already...

Dtownsfinest · 04-01-2008, 10:39 AM

The thing about Mike when he was here is that his handles were never really good. He had some of the nastiest dunks i've seen by any players in the league but when he was younger he could rely on his athleticism to get to the hoop. When you start to get in your 30's and you have handles its easy to sit back and rely on your jumper. That being said, the players on this team have handles. Josh might be an exception and its funny how he's sort of becoming Finley. Less driving and more shooting. I hope what you saying isn't true but i'm afraid it might be.

Eman · 04-01-2008, 10:48 AM

Very interesting analysis DLord. Do you have any coaching suggestions?

alexamenos · 04-01-2008, 11:05 AM

so...

the roster, which is older and obviously slower (and painfully unathletic) has not regressed in the last two years...

but the coach who has two more years experience under his belt has regressed.
-------------------------

I think another posssibility is this team had the fight sapped out of it by two very tough playoff outs, and while they are commendably putting on a good show, they've lost a step and some fight, and 50 or so wins isn't bad for this team given it's mental and physical shape.

Underdog · 04-01-2008, 11:15 AM

2 words for all the Avery haters out there:

Del Harris

Why do so many people credit Nellie for Avery's early success, but not Del Harris? From what I've seen, Avery was a brilliant coach when Del was around, but since he retired, Avery has been sliding... Not that I think Del Harris would be a good replacement for Avery (or even a great head coach), but he definitely played a large roll in our success the past couple seasons as an assistant (hell, I might even credit him with some of Nellie's Mavs success while I'm at it...)

Just thought I'd give the Anti-Avery camp a fresh, observable point since the "iso/rotations/inheriting Nellie's team" argument is getting stale...

LSMF · 04-01-2008, 11:16 AM

I agree with Dlord but in the back of my mind I wonder if Avery Johnson will even be fired...

Flip41 · 04-01-2008, 11:21 AM

Here is a joke told by a farmer that had another persons name in the joke, but if you put Avery's in there it makes sense.

The old Farmer said, "Well, ya know, Avery is a 'post turtle'."

Not being familiar with the term, I asked him what a 'post turtle'
was.

The old Farmer said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come
across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a 'post turtle'."

The old man saw a puzzled look on the my face, so he continued to
explain.

"You know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong up there, he
doesn't know what to do while he is up there, and you just want to help the
dumbass get down."

alexamenos · 04-01-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

2 words for all the Avery haters out there:

Del Harris...

and i'm wondering, how do we know that Avery ran Dale Harris off....

Granted, to the best of my understanding Harris said he was retiring so he could spend more time with his family--generally when a fellow says he's retiring to spend more time with his family I hear "I've been run off, and i'm trying to salvage a little dignity." But when the guy is 80 or 90 years old and has a couple of kids heavily involved in b-ball and he says, "I want hang with my boys and their b-ball", I'm a little more inclined to believe it.

jthig32 · 04-01-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

so...

the roster, which is older and obviously slower (and painfully unathletic) has not regressed in the last two years...

but the coach who has two more years experience under his belt has regressed.
-------------------------

I think another posssibility is this team had the fight sapped out of it by two very tough playoff outs, and while they are commendably putting on a good show, they've lost a step and some fight, and 50 or so wins isn't bad for this team given it's mental and physical shape.

Then explain the random shifts in identity, the refusal to keep a center on the floor as we used to.

Explain the obvious changes in philosophy that David very succinctly pointed out in his post.

DLord · 04-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Eman, in general I think Avery has found a way this season to "fix" what wasn't broke, because he was an inexperienced coach who panicked over the playoff loss to GS. And because of an ego that thought it meant he had invented basketball with a COY award, he decided he should design the offense using his "brain" and getting rid of all other input, which means with his inexperience and unwillingness to accept input from others, this ship has become "dead in the water."

I think it's fixable with a different coach, but that it could be significantly repaired instantly if Avery got hit over the head with a baseball bat and was convinced to do the right things. Here's the core of my formula: there are 4 things the Mavs could do that would significantly increase their chances and make them much more lethal right now:

1. Make Dirk the focal point of the team again.

Avery lost confidence in Dirk and has been trying to find "better" ways to win, failing to comprehend that Dirks blend of skills make him the Mavs' ultimate weapon. So Avery has done what the league couldn't do - he has neutered Dirk, especially in crunch time. Dirk has acquired added skills this year to attack double-teams, now make him the focal point again, and do everything you can to maximize (not minimize) that advantage.

Once Dirk is the guy, that opens up EVERYTHING for the rest of the team.

That means you play big ball every second you can, because Dirk is much more effective with a big traditional center. This team goes as far as Dirk takes you - so Damp needs to play. Screw small ball, except as a needed changeup here or there.

2. Play as much big ball as possible, even when Dirk is resting.

This means Dampier plays every game until he poops out or fouls out, and Magloire (or maybe Allen/JuHo) are his backups. Not Bass. I'm mixed on Magloire, because he's a true center, but he sux. But as close as you can get to a "real center" for at least 40-42 minutes should be the goal, not 25-30. That extra 15 minutes is getting them killed, and they are getting worn down like any other small ball team does. (Plus, they just aren't that good at small ball, Avery.)

This team is way better playing big ball. Do it as much as you can, rather than trying to mix it up for no reason other than you like a mix. A team should focus on doing what it does well, and make the other team go nuts trying to stop them, rather than playing all sorts of random lineups all the time.

And the next time Avery plays his "second team" as some sort of unit, he needs to be shot. That's just dumb, at this point in the season. Why are you making a concerted effort to develop a "cohesive 2nd unit" that needs to NOT all be on the floor at the same time in the playoffs? Why waste the precious floor minutes, while failing to teach these guys how to individually work with 4 members of the starting unit?

3. Prioritize "defense" and make the 4th quarter about making it impossible for the other team to score. Every game.

This team, when behind, is coached as if you catch up by shooting lots of outside shots and try to hit 3s. Instead, they need to try to regain the mentality that they'll catch up (and close games) with choke-you defense. They know how, and want to, but the coach prioritizes offensive players instead in those situations.

What about the inability to score? Nonsense. If they know the other team CAN'T score much, it takes all the pressure off the offense. Plus, if they focus on turnovers, they can turn defense into easy hoops. However, when the other team is able to run their plays with ease down the stretch and start a parade to the line, comebacks and closing out games are doubly hard.

What about players like JET who can add a spark? They play in key stretches and in crunch time only if they play hard defense, the very best they are capable of.

4. Beg, plead, and cajole Del Harris to immediately return and be an ACTIVE part of all the strategy, including making him the prime bench assistant for the duration.

This means Avery has to be man enough to admit he doesn't know it all, and to ask for help for someone 100 times smarter. A big confident man can do that. Del's experience and expertise are BADLY needed right now, and he's on the Mavs' payroll already, being shunned by Avery. Big mistake. Fatal, if it continues this way through the playoffs (in my opinion).

DL

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

While I agree with much of your analysis, I depart company on both the core cause and the cure you name. You think the players have reverted, and it will take a massive roster change. I disagree completely.

I think the players are - for the most part - still incredibly capable of doing the "right things" to win big here. But I think that, for certain reasons, the coaching that tells those players "how we want it done" has regressed significantly.

Nice stuff and agreed.. I also think the players know this in their heart, they like avery and say the right things, but they do not think he's got "it" anymore. They'll do what he says because that's what players do, but they won't do it with complete confidence. So they are hesitant about it and that's a killer.

Only quibble I would have is that we have gotten older in almost all backup positions and that is a problem. They don't stay healthy, they don't have the energy needed at crunch time and they are mediocre. He either cannot stand the mistakes or he cannot find a way to have a younger player step up. I liked devin and I like the kidd move, but there is no doubt that we got older and slower with the trade. And to think it was cuban only is impossible imo. It had to have been avery on board with this thing. If for nothing else the way that diop was being used, he wasn't needed.

Quote:

Sure, we continuously hear Avery whine that the players don't attack the basket. But don't be deceived - this is the same coach who complains about the lack of defense while choosing to prioritize minutes for players who lack the ability to play good defense. And you can't just tell a player "drive to the basket more" and get results, unless at the same time you are putting him in position with the ball to be able to get that done. So when Avery says, "We just didn't attack the hoop" don't lose sight of the fact that the coach saying that is playing jump-shooters over rim-attackers and isn't teaching plays to open lanes to the basket. The results are predictable (at least to everyone not named Avery) who afterwards continues to bemoan a team that didn't attack.

Bravo, bravo, bravisimo. It's like posting a guy up at the 3pt line, give me a freaking break. But the players do take jumpers when the do not have to, but as you state, it's because avery isn't putting them into positions to do much more than take a jumper.

Quote:

Yes a year and more ago, this was more of a traditional team than it is now. But Avery Johnson ran off his assistant coach who designed those successful schemes, in favor of Avery's belief that he could be Nellie-Jr, and he intentionally set out to invent the next generation of Super Small Ball in Dallas, with just enough Dampier to help a bit plus smaller players in rotation spots 6-7-8-9 who would replace the starting Big Ballers with a smaller lineup that would dominate (at least in his mind).

Did he actually run del off? I'm curious about that. That should tell cubes all he needs to know.

And I agree, as is the case with many linear thinkers, he's still fighting the GSW's by continuing to try and develop a small-ball team. Meanwhile confusing the hell out of who they actually are.

Quote:

As a result, this team has become a weird stew with no particular strengths and no particular identity, inconsistent defense, and has lost everything they worked to build over the past few years. They don't know who they are or where to go to get the crunch-time baskets, and have no confidence at all in winning close hard games.

God almighty, isn't this the truth. They don't know whether they are a defensive team, an offensive team, an efficient team or a fast-break team. Yuck...

Quote:

Get a new coach who can (a) create a focused identity, and (b) has the nuts to surround himself with assistants SMARTER than himself, and this team will soar again. The talent is already here and is as motivated as it gets. But while they have someone who pushes them to play hard (and they do), they aren't getting any wisdom and direction in which direction to be pushed.

It's fixable, with THESE players. Wait and see.

I think the bench is suspect but I whole-heartedly agree with you. When avery sat kidd down in then spurts game, I've never gotten over it. When I said "inexcusable" I meant "INEXCUSABLE". Like "INEXCUSABLE", you know. I believe he should have been fired immediately, but now we are screwed for the year. Even if the team completely rebelled against ko'ach they still need a ko'ach to do anything in the playoffs.

I'm really interested in the Del Harris quote and the assistants comment. That one really needs to be explored in a column by an insider.

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

2 words for all the Avery haters out there:
Del Harris

Why do so many people credit Nellie for Avery's early success, but not Del Harris? From what I've seen, Avery was a brilliant coach when Del was around, but since he retired, Avery has been sliding... Not that I think Del Harris would be a good replacement for Avery (or even a great head coach), but he definitely played a large roll in our success the past couple seasons as an assistant (hell, I might even credit him with some of Nellie's Mavs success while I'm at it...)

Just thought I'd give the Anti-Avery camp a fresh, observable point since the "iso/rotations/inheriting Nellie's team" argument is getting stale...

My only comeback on this is that del was there for the miami/gsw collapse. So I'm not completely sure about his ability to have averted this. But it couldn't help, that's for damn sure.

12 Tone Melodies · 04-01-2008, 11:35 AM

IIRC Paul Westphal was a jump shooter who disliked going to the basket; he also demanded a trade from the then perennial contending Celtics because he just couldn't abide Tommy Heinsohn's profanity

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

3. Prioritize "defense" and make the 4th quarter about making it impossible for the other team to score. Every game.

This team, when behind, is coached as if you catch up by shooting lots of outside shots and try to hit 3s. Instead, they need to try to regain the mentality that they'll catch up (and close games) with choke-you defense. They know how, and want to, but the coach prioritizes offensive players instead in those situations.

What about the inability to score? Nonsense. If they know the other team CAN'T score much, it takes all the pressure off the offense. Plus, if they focus on turnovers, they can turn defense into easy hoops. However, when the other team is able to run their plays with ease down the stretch and start a parade to the line, comebacks and closing out games are doubly hard.

What about players like JET who can add a spark? They play in key stretches and in crunch time only if they play hard defense, the very best they are capable of.

God almighty, DLORD..you ARE being a genious here. I've heard NOTHING from avery about doing anything more than having a more effective "offense" at crunch time. Yes that has been a problem, but we don't even get there if we can't get stops and his dumb-as-a-rock lineups are confusing the heck out of what they are supposed to focus on.

Quote:

4. Beg, plead, and cajole Del Harris to immediately return and be an ACTIVE part of all the strategy, including making him the prime bench assistant for the duration.

This means Avery has to be man enough to admit he doesn't know it all, and to ask for help for someone 100 times smarter. A big confident man can do that. Del's experience and expertise are BADLY needed right now, and he's on the Mavs' payroll already, being shunned by Avery. Big mistake. Fatal, if it continues this way through the playoffs (in my opinion).

DL

Still would like to know what's up with this and if you have more than supposition on it.

Underdog · 04-01-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

My only comeback on this is that del was there for the miami/gsw collapse. So I'm not completely sure about his ability to have averted this. But it couldn't help, that's for damn sure.

Noted - he was here when we collapsed against Golden State too...

BUT, we looked like a 67-win, Finals-bound team when Del Harris was working for us... Do we resemble that team anymore?

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Noted - he was here when we collapsed against Golden State too...

BUT, we looked like a 67-win, Finals-bound team when Del Harris was working for us... Do we resemble that team anymore?

Noted as well. If del would be focusing the team on defense in the 4th quarter and playing a center, the cubes should mandate him being in all strategy sessions. He doesn't have to come to the bench, but he'd sure as heck better be talking to him.

If avery isn't willing to do this, then cubes should fire him tommorrow. (make that today).

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-01-2008, 11:43 AM

Haha funny dude1394. That was such a fireable offense when Avery sat Kidd out. For some reason it shocked me more when he didn't play a pg at one point in the game against the latter Spurts game. I guess until that point I hadn't thought that Avery could be doing this nonsense on purpose....non-basketball people I have talked to have wondered why Avery has done some of these things. They know enough that a point guard runs the team. So either Avery was pissed at Kidd, Lue, Terry, and Barea.....or something is rotten in the state of the Mavericks. I just can't buy that it was another experiment.

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 11:54 AM

Someone (DLord) has come over to the dark side in a big way.

Unfortunately I'm deeply invested into the dark side of the force...

purplefrog · 04-01-2008, 12:50 PM

I think it is really sad when a coach who has accomplished so much so early in his career (at least on paper) totally crashes and burns because of their own pigheadedness and stubbornness. I feel bad for Avery, but he did it and continues to do it to himself. It's kinda hard to believe that anyone can be so blind to their own ineptitude.

LSMF · 04-01-2008, 12:55 PM

NON CONSPIRACY?- http://youtube.com/watch?v=WJCOSPdA7jc

jthig32 · 04-01-2008, 01:05 PM

This is really good stuff David. This should be in an article on dallasbasketball.

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

I think it is really sad when a coach who has accomplished so much so early in his career (at least on paper) totally crashes and burns because of their own pigheadedness and stubbornness. I feel bad for Avery, but he did it and continues to do it to himself. It's kinda hard to believe that anyone can be so blind to their own ineptitude.

It also the presidents responsibility to right this ship. Cubes needs to get MORE involved, not less.

Underdog · 04-01-2008, 01:10 PM

D-P

(um, double-post, not donkey-punch!)

Underdog · 04-01-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

It also the presidents responsibility to right this ship. Cubes needs to get MORE involved, not less.

Um, don't captains right ships? I'm mixed on your metaphor...

But I agree like the wind that Cuban needs to step up to the plate and throw a touchdown, otherwise this team is going to crash and burn to the bottom of the ocean like a stone going through menopause...

92bDad · 04-01-2008, 01:39 PM

Now I can get behind the idea of issues regarding the supporting coaching cast.

When Cuban and Nellie turned the Mavs around it was about all these assistant coaches. It was like the Mavs were trying to filter through to find the geniuses who could help at any coaching level, while have Nellie be the public point man.

During that time, the Mavs had the pleasure of succeeding while have one player at the end of his career show some huge signs of leadership. That player was Avery Johnson. He endeared himself to many and help put an identity onto the Mavs...one that was about grittiness and toughness to push through any and all obstacles.

Avery then traveled around, only to come back as an assistant coach. Avery again, showed the Mavs "Leadership" and the player rallied around him. Upon taking over as the headcoach, the Mavs had a great supporting cast, both players and coaches.

Today that cast has had some massive changes and the "Chemistry" has been seriously altered.

Now I have shown over and over, that I am a huge Avery supporter...as such I need to be open to question what is taking place. For a moment I will entertain the thought that Avery may have some issues that need to be developed. I also believe that he is one of the best coaches in the game and that he will come through this downturn.

With that, it may be time for Avery, Cuban, Nellie Jr to meet and truly evaluate all aspects of the Mavs. It may be time to hire additional assistant coaches while formulating a strategy that could turn this thing around...not this year mind you...but for next year.

The other aspect is seriously hurting this team and any thoughts of progress, is the age of the team. This is the 2nd oldest team in the NBA.

What steps need to be taken to rebuild this team in order to get over the big hump? As they get older, the things that are hurting the team will continue to be magnified.

It's like the Texas Rangers...baseball is about Pitching...I don't care how many HR's a team can hit...if the other team hits more you will continue to lose, thus the Rangers until they develop top tier Pitchers will never amount to anything.

This applies to the Mavs...When the names of James Donaldson, Roy Tarpley and Erick Dampier are considered your best Centers of all time...then there is a fundamental problem. As much as the defense improved the past few years, it has NEVER been known as a dominant "D" that strikes fear into the hearts of any other opponent.

The Mavs are entertaining and known as an Offensive team...but they are also known as a team that can be scored on. Nobody respects them.

The Mavs must change this image. I believe they need to acquire and develop some nasty defensive players...even a bit dirty. This is the toughness that turns other teams into jump shooters when they play you.

That is when I look at our current roster, and I simply don't see anyone who is willing to do the dirty work it takes to intimidate opponents...thus the need to re-examine how this roster will be turned over.

Folks, at the end of the day, there is a ton wrong with our beloved Mavs and it is time that leadership of the organization to do some serious soul searching.

kg_veteran · 04-01-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Someone (DLord) has come over to the dark side in a big way.

Unfortunately I'm deeply invested into the dark side of the force...

I have, too.

DLord makes perfect sense with everything he's said in this thread. Of particular interest to me are his recommendations that we: 1) play a center for at least 40-42 mpg (even if it is Magloire as the backup), 2) develop a real playoff rotation, and 3) insist that "offense only" guys like Terry and Stackhouse be played only so long as they are productive and busting their butt on defense. To each point:

1. Playing a center

This was one of the things that really won me over with Avery at the very beginning. Unlike his predecessor, he understood the value of having a real center on the floor for the vast majority of the game, even if they were mostly an offensive liability. Somewhere, somehow, that mindset changed (even though it was a big part of why this team was so successful), and the team has been the worse for it. Not only have we not played a backup center on a consistent basis, but against some teams we don't give our starting center consistent minutes.

As for Magloire, he may suck, but he's a real center, and I find it very difficult to believe that he couldn't give us 10-12 mpg behind Dampier. He can still rebound and set a screen, and he can finish around the rim.

2. Developing a real playoff rotation

We know that Dirk, Kidd, and Howard are going to (or should) play 38-42 mpg each in the playoffs. Based upon the premise in point No. 1, we know that at least 40 mpg should be going to our centers (Dampier/Magloire). That leaves only 74-86 minutes to distribute. Stackhouse and Terry are going to get at least 25-30 mpg each. That gives you a 7 man rotation and leaves 14-36 minutes to distribute. Bass and one of our swing men (preferably Wright) should get the rest of the time. Playing Juwan Howard, Malik Allen, and miscellaneous swing men serves no purpose. I could see spot duty for Lue.

3. Play scorers only when they score and bust their butt on defense.

It blows my mind that we can play Golden State and our center only gets 12 minutes in the game while "scorers" like Terry are getting huge minutes and failing to produce. The team was +12 in the 12 minutes Damp was on the floor, primarilyi because the Warriors were shooting under 30%. That's not difficult math.

alexamenos · 04-01-2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Then explain the random shifts in identity, the refusal to keep a center on the floor as we used to.

Explain the obvious changes in philosophy that David very succinctly pointed out in his post.

pre-trade -- the explanation for the random shifts in identity is that this is a product of your imagination. Damp and Diop were getting about the same minutes this year as in prior years.

post-trade -- the explanation is that the mavs are a different team than the pre-trade mavs, hence it is unreasonable to expect the mavs to look just as they've looked before.

the gist of dlord's criticism seems to be a) avery doesn't love defense anymore; and b) he doesn't play a center enough.

as for the the no "d" in avery thing, early post-trade i was a bit skeptical about how the trade would affect their d -- it took them some time, but i think they got it pretty good. I vaguely recall the mavs holding the celts and spurs under 35% in consecutive games, and if that's what we get from avery's change in identify/philosophy, i'll take it.

as for the not enough "c" in the game, get real. let's just call this the "why doesn't avery play a guy who really, really sucks 15 minutes a game" argument. damp is a career 25 mpg guy -- you can't expect to suddenly get 35 or 40 minutes per game out of him, night after night.

to the best of my recollection, there have been two games post-trade where damp's lack of playing time has been really questioned.

First was the lakers game at home -- it's been pointed out often enough that at a time in the game when AJ had played Damp all that he reasonably could given damp's foul trouble, the mavs trailed the lakers by nearly four touchdowns. hence the criticism is really that avery did what he should have done as the mavs fell behind by 25 points, but he made all these mistakes as the mavs overcame 23 or so of that 25 point deficit.

it's not a real compelling criticism, imo.

2nd was v. the dubs, where the mavs were so far and away the 2nd best team on the court with or damp on the court. so, if you want to argue that the mavs should have gotten beaten that night with damp on the floor instead of Malik Allen, i'll give you that one.

anyhoo...seriously, look at d-lord's suggestions....make dirk the focal point, play big, and play defense....

now, look at what the mavs did v. the celts and spurs------the two things are virtually the same, and the mavs lost both games.....this ain't geometry, as kidd might say, it's just that the mavs have been the 2nd best team on the court a lot recently.

------------------------

anyhoo....i think, frankly, the it's all avery's fault brigade has this asshatbackwards.

the trade made us into a small ball team....pre-trade the mavs were already very slow at the 4 and 5, and with stack on the floor they had two more dead legs at the two. add kidd and now you've gotten way slower at the one--you no longer have a one man fast break. you know longer have one of the very best players in the league at drawing fouls and getting to the line, but instead you've got a guy that never gets to the line.

so with the trade you've gotten really unathletic at the 1, 2, 4 and 5 spots, and the guy at the three has to be reminded to go to the basket after every bong hit.

that line up is gonna get run out of the gym from time to time---get used to it, get your small ball one-n-done on, and learn to love it...

cheers

purplefrog · 04-01-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

I think it's fixable with a different coach, but that it could be significantly repaired instantly if Avery got hit over the head with a baseball bat and was convinced to do the right things.

I think it's interesting to entertain the idea that Avery could actually fix this mess if he would accept personal responsibility and listen to his assistant coaches. Does anyone really think Avery could change his ways if enough pressure was applied (by Cuban I suppose)?

dude1394 · 04-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

I think it's interesting to entertain the idea that Avery could actually fix this mess if he would accept personal responsibility and listen to his assistant coaches. Does anyone really think Avery could change his ways if enough pressure was applied (by Cuban I suppose)?

Or that the next curve-ball thrown his way wouldn't knock his wheels off anyway? Taking him another year to figure it out.

LonghornDub · 04-01-2008, 02:36 PM

Avery's unwillingness to accept blame for anything really does grind on you after awhile. I just want to hear him say, just once, that the team lost a game because he didn't coach well enough.

purplefrog · 04-01-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Avery's unwillingness to accept blame for anything really does grind on you after awhile. I just want to hear him say, just once, that the team lost a game because he didn't coach well enough.

I agree. I'm tired of hearing him taking 5 minutes to tell us why it's not his fault and then turning around and saying "We make no excuses." Well you just gave us a bunch of 'em.

kg_veteran · 04-01-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Damp and Diop were getting about the same minutes this year as in prior years.

Wrong. In the games Dampier started this year before Diop was traded, Dampier and Diop combined for 38 mpg. Last year they combined for 43 mpg.

I'm sure your response will be, "Hey, what's the difference? It's 5 mpg!"

Last year, 43 mpg for the centers equaled a defensive pp100 of 103.3. This year, 38 mpg for the centers equaled a defensive pp100 of 108.7.

alexamenos · 04-01-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

I think it's interesting to entertain the idea that Avery could actually fix this mess if he would accept personal responsibility and listen to his assistant coaches. Does anyone really think Avery could change his ways if enough pressure was applied (by Cuban I suppose)?

here's where i keep getting hung up, pf....

Where is there any actual evidence that Avery doesn't already listen to his head coaches?

Isn't it quite plausible that his assistant coaches aren't omniscient geniuses who have all the fixes if only Avery would listen? Isn't entirely plausible that he is listening to his assistant coaches, and the result you see is the result of him listening?

I mean, since we're busy in this thread crediting Del Harris for past Maverick success, shouldn't it at least be acknowledged that Harris could not have accomplished so much had Avery not been willing to listen to him? And if Johnson was listening to Harris, is it possible that he's listening to Westphal now?

Underdog · 04-01-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexamenos

here's where i keep getting hung up, pf....

Where is there any actual evidence that Avery doesn't already listen to his head coaches?

Isn't it quite plausible that his assistant coaches aren't omniscient geniuses who have all the fixes if only Avery would listen? Isn't entirely plausible that he is listening to his assistant coaches, and the result you see is the result of him listening?

I mean, since we're busy in this thread crediting Del Harris for past Maverick success, shouldn't it at least be acknowledged that Harris could not have accomplished so much had Avery not been willing to listen to him? And if Johnson was listening to Harris, is it possible that he's listening to Westphal now?

Who knows? It's not like anyone outside the organization is privy to such information (not first-hand, anyway...)

All we can do is speculate based upon what we see in the games - Avery's Mavs were good when Del Harris was here, and now that he's gone, they're not... Does that have to do anything with anything? I dunno - these days I'm only good for questions, not answers...

DLord · 04-01-2008, 03:21 PM

alexamenos

You simply are failing to recognize that the Kidd trade didn't change anything and didn't make this into a small ball team. Instead, it merely matched the roster makeup to the philosophical approach chosen by the coach.

Avery has consciously and intentionally made this into a half big ball, half small ball team, with only one center, and there was a philosophical change FIRST followed by a roster gradually molded to match his new philosophy. The Kidd trade merely sent to NJ his 3rd or 4th string guy (behind Damp, Dirk, and Bass) that he had already decided wasn't going to play much of a role down the stretch of the season.

That philosophical shift has been subtle, but it has been on display all year. However, it went unrecognized for the bulk of the season, because early in the season it was explained (by Avery himself) as mere "experimentation." We now see that the so-called "experimentation" wasn't temporary at all.

We actually saw it blatantly exhibited just as the season started (but didn't know why), when Mbenga's roster spot was swapped for a F who could hit a 15 footer (Ju Howard). Then Avery did it again when Diop was also swapped for a F who could hit a 15 footer (Allen). Those were not accidental choices in any way. Ager could have very easily been let go rather than Mbenga, for example, but Avery chose to keep the smaller scrub and get thinner at C. Those were manifestations of a philosophical shift already in play. Avery was signaling the fact that he didn't want or need a rotatable core of traditional centers anymore.

Last year the Mavs played their true centers a total of about 3500 minutes. This year, with 8 games left, they've only played about 2400. That is a HUGE decrease. And in my opinion, it's a major mistake that is bearing bitter fruit as this team has been converted from elite to fringe-playoff in only one season.

ShaggyDirk · 04-01-2008, 03:32 PM

every once in awhile I enjoy reading this board. it is getting to far in between these days, so this is a pleasant surprise.

Underdog · 04-01-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaggyDirk

every once in awhile I enjoy reading this board. it is getting to far in between these days, so this is a pleasant surprise.

Agreed - this might be the best thread I've read in weeks...

[What's this? Opposing points of view engaging in intelligent discussion without resorting to pettiness??? Huh-zah!]