Did anybody else see that??? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

samoan-maverick · 10-12-2005, 10:13 PM

Those sorry excuses for Ump's just screwed the Angels. I'm so pissed but none of my friends are here, their all at work and my internet just started workin' yesterday.

So how are the mavs doin'?

mmmfast · 10-12-2005, 10:22 PM

That call was a complete joke.
You see the home ump call no contact and out. Then the backtrack because the guy runs?

Nonsense!

mmmfast · 10-12-2005, 10:25 PM

Oops...double.

Five-ofan · 10-12-2005, 11:15 PM

Seeing as how the angles got to this series on a shitty call, I dont think they have a right to gripe about officiating.

mary · 10-12-2005, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
Seeing as how the angles got to this series on a shitty call, I dont think they have a right to gripe about officiating.

I see your point, but at least the Game 5 base running call on Cano was somewhat debatable, if that is what you're referring to. I thought it was a shitty call myself, but I will admit to being a less-than-an-expert fan of the game.

The call tonight was wrong and completely undebateable.

On the other hand the fact that Vlade hasn't shown up yet, hasn't helped their cause at all - and there's certainly no guarantee they would've won if the right call had been made.

ETA: After briefly visiting a CWS board, I guess there is no such thing an undebateable call - but the ball sure looked caught to me and the batter himself headed towards the dugout, and it at least appeared that the Ump motioned the out.

Five-ofan · 10-12-2005, 11:39 PM

Honestly I hate sciosscia so Im not objective but I am a certified umpire, great job $30-$65 a game, no better job if you are a teenager and its fun. The Cano call was horrible. I didnt see the call today and dont know what happened so I cant comment on it. The cano call was just terrible though. He was on the baseline. The reason it looked like interference is because the first basemen covered the base wrong. I was also a first basemen and as a first basemen from where Molina through the ball you cover the bag with your left foot on the bag and if he did that there is no problem. Erstad I guess it was but I remember the guy being right handed(was it a second basemen covering or something?) had his body directly behind the runner where there was no target. This has come out really jumbled but as an umpire and a former first basemen trust me it was a bad play by the firstbasemen and a bad call by the umpire.

Five-ofan · 10-12-2005, 11:41 PM

What were they debating in the CWS forum? The play where the right fielder for UT ran over the catcher? Thats the only remotely debatable call I remember except the strike call on the strike em out throw em out double play.

mary · 10-12-2005, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
What were they debating in the CWS forum? The play where the right fielder for UT ran over the catcher? Thats the only remotely debatable call I remember except the strike call on the strike em out throw em out double play.

I'll try my best to recap without Tivo. The game was tied 1-1, bottom of the ninth, two outs. Escobar was pitching to Pierzynski, who strikes out swinging.

At this point, Josh Paull rolls the ball back towards the mound and the Angels head towards the dugout.

Simultaneously, the Ump does at least two things. He clearly calls a strike, and points towards first base - I don't remember in which order.
There is debate on whether or not he actually called him out, as he just used the forward fist action - whatever the hell that is called [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Pierzynski, who initially starts to head towards the dugout himself, runs to first base and is ruled safe on a catcher's error. According the the Homeplate ump, Paul did not cleanly catch the ball, but that it bounced into his glove. Since Paul did not tag the runner or throw to first base, the runner was deemed safe. They put in a pinch runner, who moves to second and then is scored on a double hit into left field. Game over.

On replay slowmo, it really looks like a clean catch, as you can see leather between the dirt and the ball the entire way.

CSW fans are saying it clearly hit the ground.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 12:02 AM

Im an idiot i thought you meant a College world series forum and was wondering why it would have been brought up now. The umpire can call it a strike and not call it an out. However ill wait and see it on sportscenter and then let you know what I think. Btw that is a call that can be appealed and in the scenario you just mentioned should have been. Aj bats left handed right? In that case the 3rd base umpire is responsible for knowing whether the ball hit the ground. You learn all of these things in an umpire certifying class. As the off side umpire you are responsible for check swings and knowing whether the ball hit the dirt because you arent screened like the home umpire is. Also if the umpire says out though, the play is over and you cant change your call. If he didnt then Paul should have realized he hadnt and tagged him. IF he signaled strike and then pointed to first then he didnt change his call. Doesnt mean it was right but he didnt change it.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 12:07 AM

Blown call. A fist is always an out. No matter what you dont make a fist if you dont mean out if you are an umpire or you are signaling full count. Also the ball was clearly caught. Not AJs fault though. This umpire blew it. Whether he meant to call him out or not once he does the play is over whether he caught it or not. You also dont have to verbally call someone out to call them out. Blown call no question.

mary · 10-13-2005, 12:09 AM

Yes, he's a left hander. After a rather lenghty discussion between Scioscia and whom I'm guessing was the homeplate umpire, the third base umpire was finally consulted. Its unclear what he said, but the play was not overturned.

Am I'm correct in assuming that if the homeplate umpire digs his heels in during a 10 minute argument with a manager, a 3rd base ump is less likely to overturn him?

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 12:11 AM

Im watching the bbtn people and other than Kruk they are clueless. I cant believe they said that. Whether he calls strikes like that or not and I hate the angels that is a mistake. On the other strikeouts he doesnt make an out call. Honestly the ump is just pulling something out of his ass to try to not look like a complete moron. I think everyone should umpire so they realize its not as easy as you think but you have to know whats going on and your calls have to be obvious to everyone. Either he blew that call or he blew EVERY other strike out call the whole game.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 12:14 AM

Yes Mary, that is one of first rules of umpiring, you dont overturn someone unless you are 100% positive even if there is very little argument but if there is one like that you back up the other ump. Perfect world not how it would work but its how it does irl.

mary · 10-13-2005, 12:14 AM

Thanks for the insight Five-O [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 12:16 AM

No problem.

chumdawg · 10-13-2005, 02:08 AM

Five-o, how does an umpire make a decision on a play like that, where it's very close between a trap and a clean catch? Does he try to go by sound? What if it's too loud to hear the second sound? Does he sort of wait and see what the players do, with the idea that if the catcher trapped the ball or if he thought it was at all close that he may have, then he tags the guy just to be sure?

Regardless how he makes a determination, if he determines that the ball was trapped, what motion should he make to signal a third strike but not an out?

I'm thinking of the situation where a player beats the tag at home but misses the plate. In that case the umpire calls neither safe nor out, correct? Is this at all similar?

Lastly, from the head-on replay it appears to me that the ball changes direction. From the side-angle replay it looks like a clean catch. But all I seem to be seeing anymore on ESPN is the side-angle replay.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 02:47 AM

Different umpires do different things. Personally I look for dirt because if the ball hits the ground it usually makes at least a little dirt move. The correct signal is what he started to do. Put your hand up for however you show strikes most point but some as he does just raise there arm. You do that and then you wait but most umpires also yell no catch if its a close play.

Above all as an umpire your job is to make sure that everyone knows exactly what you are calling. You cant have a tricky well this signals no contact and then this signals strike three and then despite the fact that i havent done it all night there is another call for out. But there is no set rule as to how you know on that play. As the third base ump you should have a clear view and you just watch. Yes I know that on plays like that you cant tell for sure but if you are appealed to immediately you go with what you saw. If not and your not certain you echo the behind the plate umps ruling. To me yes the ump screwed it up and on a replay I think he caught it clean, yes the ball changes direction but its from hitting his glove which hits the ground, but other than his indecision its not an unbelievably bad call. This is why as an ump you are told to make a ruling and stick with it. Either way if he says strongly he caught it your out, no one is complaining too much. If he says you dropped it, dropped third strike immediately or doesnt call anything, no one is complaining too much. Indecision as an ump will get you in alot of trouble because everyone knows your just guessing.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 03:25 PM

One other thing that I think most people know but Im not sure of is that as the other ump, unless the ump that made the call asks for help you CANT overrule him even if you saw it perfectly. This is why when catchers point to third the ump has to do it too. Only the ump with the call can ask for help. If he doesnt, then you have to live with what he calls. About the arguing thing. Usually when there is an argument like that the home ump will tell the 3rd base ump, "Look I got it so just back me up." Then he appeals and the 3rd base ump agrees. Its just a way to make people happy.

chumdawg · 10-13-2005, 04:08 PM

Five-o, thanks very much for the insight. But I'm still not sure I know the answer to that one question. What is the umpire supposed to do on a swinging strike three where the ball hits the dirt? What motion is he supposed to make? Is he supposed to say something?

If he's supposed to say something, then why doesn't he say something when the runner is safe at home but misses the tag? He doesn't say "No tag!", does he?

Or maybe he does. That's what I am trying to figure out. It was my impression that the umpires have no responsibility to say anything until the play is OVER. And in the case last night, the play was still live.

I mean, there is a certain amount of things that the umpires just do not intercede on, right? It is up to the defense to appeal when, say, a runner leaves early on a sac fly. The ump knows he did it, but he won't do anything about it unless the defense asks him to. So why in this case should the ump be compelled to step in and help the defense out.

Paul was an absolute idiot on that play. One of the most brain-dead plays I have seen in a long time. And they can't be blaming it on any "mechanic" by the ump. Paul didn't even see the ump. He acted completely on his own.

And at the very least, he had to know it was close. And after watching more replays last night, I'm convinced that it bounced in. ESPN News showed me a good still shot picture of the ball in contact with the dirt. And from the side angle shots, if you watch the shadow of the ball, you see that it's pretty much meeting the ball a split second before the ball disappears behind the glove. And from the front shot, it seems pretty clear that the ball changes direction.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 04:30 PM

Your correct on a missed plate or leave early on a sac fly the ump does nothing. That also applies to any other missed base. If they dont appeal before the next pitch he is safe. That play is a little different. You know how an ump does strike one and strike 2 differently from strike 3? If its strike 3 but not an out he should just make another strike call. Thats what the putting his hand out there to say no contact meant. You have a point about saying something there but usually umps do say NO CATCH. Only if its a close play like that though. If it bounces clearly you just shut up and see if the runner and catcher realize it. The signal he made is an out call whether he says so or not.

chumdawg · 10-13-2005, 04:35 PM

Well, technically, he *did* strike out, as the ump signalled. Right? I know you can have more than three strikeouts in an inning.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2005, 06:23 PM

Yes he did strikeout. However he wasnt Out. I know it sounds weird but from every ump ive ever seen and my own experience what he signaled was an out. If he meant what he said then after EACH strikeout he would have to make some kind of a 3rd call to signal out. He hadnt which means that just like everyone else his fist meant an out.

Big Boy Laroux · 10-14-2005, 10:50 AM

i finally saw the replay (I didn't see the game). he DEFINITELY called him out. Every ump i've ever seen makes that hand motion (closed fist) for an out.

the ump just didn't have the balls to do anything about AJ running to first. so he treated everything after as "oh, i guess because he ran, he's safe"

chumdawg · 10-14-2005, 11:07 AM

I believe the first motion he made was to signal no catch with his right hand, was it not?

They finally are showing replays that clearly indicate the ball bounced. I'm amazed at the ability these umps have to get those calls correct, when they are THAT close.

Now that I've watched it and thought about it some more, not only was Jason Paul bone-headed but the pitcher really was too. He had time to go get the ball and still throw Paul out at first. At least Paul didn't know the guy was running when he fucked up his part of it. But it was all right there in front of the pitcher's eyes. If he has a little wits about him, this controversy never happens.

It's not uncommon to see baseball players make "just in case" kind of plays. Even if the Angels thought they were safely out of the inning anyway, they ought to have done something about that player scampering on down the first baseline.

Murphy3 · 10-14-2005, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I believe the first motion he made was to signal no catch with his right hand, was it not?

They finally are showing replays that clearly indicate the ball bounced. I'm amazed at the ability these umps have to get those calls correct, when they are THAT close.

Now that I've watched it and thought about it some more, not only was Jason Paul bone-headed but the pitcher really was too. He had time to go get the ball and still throw Paul out at first. At least Paul didn't know the guy was running when he fucked up his part of it. But it was all right there in front of the pitcher's eyes. If he has a little wits about him, this controversy never happens.

It's not uncommon to see baseball players make "just in case" kind of plays. Even if the Angels thought they were safely out of the inning anyway, they ought to have done something about that player scampering on down the first baseline.

Actually, I haven't seen a replay that would suggest that the ball bounced. I also haven't heard any of the on air guys talking about the ball bouncing. They're all saying that it was clearly caught.

chumdawg · 10-14-2005, 12:45 PM

I've seen replays that show the ball changing direction, which indicates it bounced. Have a look at this pic and see if you think the ball is A) not touching dirt, and B) already cleanly in the glove. I think it's back on the way up in this picture, anyways.

Murphy3 · 10-14-2005, 12:48 PM

The ball could hit the webbing of his glove and come up just as easily as it could have hit the dirt. I'd have to see the replay again..the picture doesn't really tell conclusively one way or the other.

chumdawg · 10-14-2005, 12:54 PM

A split second later it looked like this. Notice how open the glove is in the first picture.

chumdawg · 10-14-2005, 12:57 PM

I can certainly agree that it's not conclusive one way or the other.

chumdawg · 10-14-2005, 06:41 PM

I found a pretty conclusive replay. Click here for the video. Take it to about fifty seconds in, and watch the side angle shot. Use the pause button. Watch the shadow of the ball disappear a few inches before the ball arrives at the glove. Then watch the close-up straight-on shot immediately following. I think you can pretty readily see the ball jump up into the glove.

Edited to fix link. I hope.

Murphy3 · 10-14-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: chumdawg
A split second later it looked like this. Notice how open the glove is in the first picture.

My biggest issue is with the way the ump made/makes his call. It certainly appears that the ump ruled that he was out. There's definitely a difference between ruling that it was a third strike and ruling that the batter is out... It appeared to me that he ruled that he was out.

Big Boy Laroux · 10-17-2005, 10:09 AM

I agree with the commentators. it REALLY looks like it bounced on the webbing. no dirt was raised off the ground. but that's a moot point, really. he called him out. I'm in agreement with the murph, here, too.

alby · 10-17-2005, 11:09 PM

did you guys see the stros game tonight?

ALBERT pujols baby!

i cheer against every houston team with a passion.

capitalcity · 10-17-2005, 11:36 PM

CHOKECITY strikes again!!!!!!!!

Big Boy Laroux · 10-18-2005, 09:50 AM

man, everyone KNEW pujols was going to do something there. what a mammoth blast.