Who wants to dogpile Nelson after a rare loss?

[David]

This is the thread to do it. All of you who want Nelson gone, even though he has improved the Mavs record every year and is off to the best start in Mavs history, 25-5, this is the place. Don't worry, all your fellow Nellie haters can join in and agree that "Jr." needs to take over and is the answer, even though he has only been a head coach on a limited basis, internationally, and has NEVER been an NBA head coach, except for short stretches.

Go ahead, ignore the positives and accentuate the negatives. 25-5? Bah, what happened the LAST game? Nellie must go. Nellie lost a close game when only one guy on the team was shooting worth a damn. It's time to put Jr. in charge.

The Mavs are winning 5 out of every 6 games but that's not good enough. Come on. Let's do the dogpile.

[Murphy3]

david, as you know..i've wanted nellie gone for a very long time..this is nothing knew. i believe his coaching philosophies are a bad fit for the needs of the mavs and their future success in the playoffs.

sorry david, many of us have our opinions that are set based upon what we've seen in both the wins and the losses. record isn't always indicative of what growth is occurring..or how much more likely the team is to be playoff ready.

sorry david, many of us think the negative outweight the positives when it comes to post season success.. big nellie has never done anything to make us believe otherwise

to me, it's not about the regular season..the mavs can go 77-5 but would still be a likely candidate to lose in the second round this season in my opinion..mostly because of their offensive mindset and because of their failure to address certain needs in the off season

[BrianJ]

Now that you mention it I think it would be a blast to be on top of that pile. Not that I don't like Nellie, but I just can't imagine anybody else getting more red and pissed off then him.It would be hillarious except that part of the ego blow when I am beaten without mercy by a sixty year old man.

[Bayliss]

David, I don't care how many wins Nellie posts in the regular season. I will not respect his coaching until he posts 15 wins in one playoff season.

Phil Jackson will tell you that 15 is far more important than 60 or even 70.

[Just211]

agree with Murph. I love Nellie, and all the success he brings for Dallas, but I think Nellie is too set in his way to make the suttle coaching chances Dallas needs. Donnie's style(while you are right about his limited experience) would fit the Mavs better for the playoffs, and games against the elite teams. BUT, IMO Nellie should not be ran off, but rather after this year, step down, and serve as GM only.

[southern_sweets]

I don't want Nellie gone. It's hard to say what will happen next season. I would like to see Donnie replace Nellie as head coach when he retires.
This past summer I read an interview someone (I think DMN)did with Cuban and asked him if this would be Nellie's last year as coach. Cuban's response was that he did not know and it would depend on his (Nellie's) and/or his wife's health. Maybe some of the uncertainty Cuban has about Nellie returning is based on Nellie's health and plans or need to retire, not replacing him if the Mavs don't win a championship.

[Murphy3]

to be honest, nellie is probably my favorite person that happened to be a coach of a metroplex team...except for maybe Hitch...nellie is hilarious..funny guy, great guy..i just don't want him as the mavs coach

[nowitzki_prophecy]

<< David, I don't care how many wins Nellie posts in the regular season. I will not respect his coaching until he posts 15 wins in one playoff season. >>



Exactly,lets see the ring first.

[TwoDeep3]

What continually mystifies me Murphy is your penchant for this statement of needs not addressed in the off-season.

There is one Shaq. They didn't make any more of them.

So while we would all enjoy having someone to &quot;fix&quot; the defense, what player would have been available that the Mavs could have afforded.

I'm sure you could list a great number and outside of speculation there isn't any way of telling if they would have cured the ills or not.

I am so tired or fans that want this magical fix without the realization what you want may be completely impossible.

And your comments about wanting Nellie gone and the regular season wins is absurd. The foundation for post-season success is built on regular season success.

The grass is always greener for the fan. Raef was The Answer, if you read many posts here last season. People were actually begging Cuban to trade for Raef.

Now there are threads ready to trade him.

There are fans who are quite intellegent and have a good deal of basketball knowledge. But in most cases fans are impatient and normally see the glass as half empty.

And what makes this the most ludicrous horse manure posted on any board I have personally witnessed this month is the comment about not respecting Nellie's coaching posted by Bayless.

Have you people forgotten the 90's already.

I posted here the year before last as the Mavs were making a glorious comeback on the Jazz in a play-off series that the golden era was over. The take-me-by-surprize era when the Mavs were fun and exciting and we were thrilled to be winning again era. A time when our expectations didn't exceed our ability.

That time has so past.

It's proven almost everyday by posts that have spoiled fan written all over them.

We can't appreciate the ride, because we are so hell bent on the destination.

I have been a Cowboy fan since the first day they were in Dallas. One thing I have learned is this. The Super Bowl victories are wonderful, but they leave a very hollow feeling because the second they win it all, they have to start over again. It's a two-edged sword.

So I take each game as they come and enjoy the moment without this hand-wringing about what the end of the season will bring. Because what you will find is the end of the season is what it takes to name the new World Champ. And the moment you realize the Mavs are the World Champ, the season and the experiences are over.

[MFFL]

<< Go ahead, ignore the positives and accentuate the negatives. 25-5? Bah, what happened the LAST game? Nellie must go. >>



This has nothing to do with the last game. People have been frustrated with Nellie for YEARS. But what has Nellie accomplished? Yes, we win more regular season games. Yes, we made the second round of the playoffs. Both of these things are better than what went on in the 90's. But I would like a championship banner and Nellie has never shown the ability to get that done.

[OutletPass]

So I take each game as they come and enjoy the moment without this hand-wringing about what the end of the season will bring. Because what you will find is the end of the season is what it takes to name the new World Champ. And the moment you realize the Mavs are the World Champ, the season and the experiences are over.

-- Stars fans found that out, too. An insightful post, 2Deep. We've been very fortunate to have winning teams here in Dallas. Let us be happy for that. While many don't care for Nellie's coaching AT THIS LEVEL, it's disturbing to talk about canning him NOW.

I'm not in love with small ball, under dog ball and a lot of the things that have been mentioned...but all that can be addressed over the summer. Let's not forget to smell the roses as we head to the playoffs. Can anyone legitimately say that they haven't enjoyed the wins ? The 25 wins.

[LRB]

<< Phil Jackson will tell you that 15 is far more important than 60 or even 70. >>



Hmmm, of cource winning 15 post season games is much easier when you have a Shaq or MJ on your team also. But looks like Shaq won't do the trick this year. Yeah Nellie has never won a title. Nellie has never had a team good enough to get the best regular season record. Hmmmm. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. There sure are some things I would like Nellie to change about his coaching. But if you made me the head coach of the Mavs I would probably make Quinn Buckner look good, seriously. Yeah I would improve on a hand full of things. But there would be 100's of things that Nellie does and does great that I would be totally clueless. Don't think Jr. would be totally clueless, but is he ready to perform solo at the master's level. One way to find out, but we can't stuff the genie back in the bottle once its out.

When Nellie was at Golden State he didn't have the talent to get as deep into the playoffs as he did. They overachieved. When he was at Milwaukee he had the likes of Dr. J, Moses Malone, Darrly Dawkins, Maurice Cheeks, Larry Bird, Kevin Mchale, and Robert Parish to get past to even get to the finals. Then he would have most likely had to fend off Magic, Worthey, and Kareem. He didn't have near the talent of the 76ers or the Celtics but he competed with them very well. I remember him taking Philly to many 7 game series that could have went either way. Keep in mind that no coach has won an NBA championship in the past 12 seasons without a serious contender for the MVP on his team. This is the 1st year Nellie has had one on his team, but even then Dirk's is only marginly serious at best (except in the Mavs faithful eyes). I think that will change big time next year. Of cource I'm sure if Phil Jackson was still in Chicago with the talent they have they would be bringing the trophy home, right? A good coach gets the maximum results out of his talents, a great coach gets his team to over achieve. Nellie has been consitently a very good coach and many times a great coach. This team has gone from lottery to talking about 60+ wins and the best record in the NBA in less than 3 seasons.

But we haven't made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs. How long did it take Sacramento to make it past the 2nd round? There were many failure until they broke through last year, and almost won it all. How long did it take the Lakers to make it past the 2nd round? At least a couple of years after the Shaq and Kobe additions. It's not just the coach, but the team has to grow. No coach is perfect. Keep that in mind. If Jr. was installed we would be having the same type of discussions when the team slumped slightly. Jr. has flaws too, many that we don't know about. He is after all the grass that is on the other side of the fence. Nellie may need to be replaced as coach for the Mavs to win a title. But unless this team hits a serious slump where it looks as if me probably won't get home court advantage for the 2nd round, I don't think that is any valid reason to make a coaching change before next summer. BTW this team is on pace to win 68 games this year. How many teams have won that many games in the regular season and failed to win the NBA title? 0. Every team to win 68 or more has gone on to win a title. Why? Because to win that much you have to be so damn good that its almost impossible to beat you in the playoffs barring major injury. The homecourt advantage also helps a little. So think about that streak when you bring up the fact Nellie never won a title.

[David]

2001-02-- 57 25 .695
2000-01-- 53 29 .646
1999-00-- 40 42 .488
1998-99-- 14 36 .280
1997-98-- 20 62 .244
1996-97-- 24 58 .293&lt;
1995-96-- 26 56 .317&lt;
1994-95-- 36 46 .439&lt;
1993-94-- 13 69 .159&lt;
1992-93-- 11 71 .134&lt;
1991-92-- 22 60 .268&lt;
1990-91-- 28 54 .341&lt;

Anyone care to go back to those halcyon, pre-Nellie days? It's AS IF getting rid of Nelson AUTOMATICALLY guarantees playoff success.

[Dooby]

OK, look, it is not hypocritical, nor is it contradictory, nor is it irrational, to appreciate what Nelson has done for the Mavs and at the same time wish the team had a new head coach.

David, the repetitive statement (said many different ways) that Nelson has improved this team's regular season record every year gets nowhere. The other side of the argument is that Nelson is one of the winningest coaches in NBA history and has never even sniffed a ring as coach.

The truth is you really can't argue with either statement, because both are fact.

I think Don does get more out of players during the regular season utilizing matchups, playing a high-tempo game, yada yada yada. But at the same time, he does about a half-dozen to a dozen things a night that drive me friggin' nuts. The 48 minute Dirk is one example (if the ankle tightens up when he's on the bench, he needs to rest it, not play it more!). The refusal to ride the hot hand is another.

I amy be wrong, but except for NY, his team have done worse without Nelson the year after he leaves. That tells me he gets more out of a team than other coaches. But has he ever had a team this talented? I don't think so. So, in my mind, it is time for him to deliver.

I'll give Nelson this year, I'll even give him next year. I am content, for now, to watch and let Nelson drive me nuts. But at some point, Nelson needs to show me he can coach straight up, that he can take this team to the next level. And if he doesn't do it, where are you? Oh, the team wasn't good enough. Well, that is his responsibility too.

At the end of the day David, you have to accept the fact that regular season wins are not as important as playoff wins. We have to see progress at that end. If we don't, then where are we?

[seelenjaeger]

I will accept that Nellie would have to go if &quot;the Ring&quot; is the very last thing to achieve.

But is it? Are we not overboard judging about the talent of our team yet?

We haven´t won a Division nor Conference Title. We haven´t finished No. 1 in rankings. We have not crossed the .600 barrier.

If we´d dominate the league for years now but won´t get into the Conference Finals THEN you´ll have the right to complain, but we never ever showed WORTHY of beeing THE TEAM TO BEAT so far, so isn´t it homerism to complain about losing series in which we were the underdogs?

And Murph - until something big happens Nellie just has proven you wrong in your wish to get rid of him so far - at least till April.

[kg_veteran]

<< OK, look, it is not hypocritical, nor is it contradictory, nor is it irrational, to appreciate what Nelson has done for the Mavs and at the same time wish the team had a new head coach.

David, the repetitive statement (said many different ways) that Nelson has improved this team's regular season record every year gets nowhere. The other side of the argument is that Nelson is one of the winningest coaches in NBA history and has never even sniffed a ring as coach.

The truth is you really can't argue with either statement, because both are fact.

I think Don does get more out of players during the regular season utilizing matchups, playing a high-tempo game, yada yada yada. But at the same time, he does about a half-dozen to a dozen things a night that drive me friggin' nuts. The 48 minute Dirk is one example (if the ankle tightens up when he's on the bench, he needs to rest it, not play it more!). The refusal to ride the hot hand is another.

I amy be wrong, but except for NY, his team have done worse without Nelson the year after he leaves. That tells me he gets more out of a team than other coaches. But has he ever had a team this talented? I don't think so. So, in my mind, it is time for him to deliver.

I'll give Nelson this year, I'll even give him next year. I am content, for now, to watch and let Nelson drive me nuts. But at some point, Nelson needs to show me he can coach straight up, that he can take this team to the next level. And if he doesn't do it, where are you? Oh, the team wasn't good enough. Well, that is his responsibility too.

At the end of the day David, you have to accept the fact that regular season wins are not as important as playoff wins. We have to see progress at that end. If we don't, then where are we? >>



Great post, Dooby. I agree wholeheartedly.

[dude1394]

I'll listen to the get rid of nellie crowd as soon as they mention a better coach who has at least:

- Actually head coach successfully for a year.
Or
- Head coach for half a year.
Or
- Actually been completely responsible for the team.
Or
- Taken a completely rotten team and built them up.

Then when you show me THAT coach he will also have had to have
- WON A CHAMPIONSHIP.

Nellie Jr. AIN'T it. So until then it's all silly fan junk.

Wanting to get rid of nellie now for little nellie is just the normal silly fan wishing the backup quarterback would play because OBVIOUSLY he's better. It sounds even sillier now since no one can say nellie has ever had a team that was really competing for the title. When he did try to address dificiencies in GS webber blows up the team. He surely didn't have the team in milwaukee, ever.

Hmmm.. And right now he has the best record in the league and you knuckleheads want to can him... Wow...

[kg_veteran]

TwoDeep3 - Good to see you. I really respect your opinions, and you don't post often enough. That said, I have to ask you what your definition of success for this Mavericks team is. If you define it as winning more regular season games and simply posting a winning record, then this team will be successful for many years to come, Nellie or not. If, however, you expect postseason success because of the talent this team has, then it seems natural to hold Nellie accountable to properly utilize the talent available.

I have been a Mavs fan forever, and I certainly remember the 90's. Then, success was defined differently based upon the talent the team had. But success must be redefined as the team's talent level changes.

Enjoying the process is certainly a valid point, but I want the process to be taking us somewhere, not plateauing the team at a certain level.

It is inevitable that one day this team will have to rebuild. That day hasn't come, though, and while the Mavs have the talent on hand, I'm not going to stop demanding success from Nellie simply because I know that some day the team won't have enough talent to perform as they are now. That makes no sense.

[dude1394]

<< I will accept that Nellie would have to go if &quot;the Ring&quot; is the very last thing to achieve.

But is it? Are we not overboard judging about the talent of our team yet?

We haven´t won a Division nor Conference Title. We haven´t finished No. 1 in rankings. We have not crossed the .600 barrier.

If we´d dominate the league for years now but won´t get into the Conference Finals THEN you´ll have the right to complain, but we never ever showed WORTHY of beeing THE TEAM TO BEAT so far, so isn´t it homerism to complain about losing series in which we were the underdogs?

And Murph - until something big happens Nellie just has proven you wrong in your wish to get rid of him so far - at least till April. >>



Seel.... You are so right on. We may THINK we were a better team than Sac last year but we weren't. We were better than we showed, but the organization and players learned something from it. If at the end of the regular season we have the best record in the league, then there really are some pretty big markers for nellie to cover in my mind. If that is the case we will be very competitive and have to contend. We may not be mentally ready yet to tell you the truth, sac might be more ready as they have been on the journey longer. But not competing will be very dissapointing, for me, for &quot;us&quot; and for Cubes..

[kg_veteran]

<< I will accept that Nellie would have to go if &quot;the Ring&quot; is the very last thing to achieve.

But is it? Are we not overboard judging about the talent of our team yet?

We haven´t won a Division nor Conference Title. We haven´t finished No. 1 in rankings. We have not crossed the .600 barrier.

If we´d dominate the league for years now but won´t get into the Conference Finals THEN you´ll have the right to complain, but we never ever showed WORTHY of beeing THE TEAM TO BEAT so far, so isn´t it homerism to complain about losing series in which we were the underdogs?

And Murph - until something big happens Nellie just has proven you wrong in your wish to get rid of him so far - at least till April. >>



This is certainly a valid point. The Mavs haven't been failing at the highest level for a number of years, as the Bills did in the early 90's in the NFL, for example. At the same time, however, when you look around at the rest of the NBA, there's no reason to think that the Mavs can't compete for a title this year. That being the case, I want the Mavs to be in the best position to win the title -- not 70 games in the regular season.

How long do you think Nellie should be given? Two years? Three? In three years, how old will Mike Finley be? In three years, how good will Steve Nash be? The man's 26 and already has persistent injury problems. My point here is that it seems that the Nellie defenders believe that we have a 5-7 year window to get things done. I don't know that that's the case. I think we can only be guaranteed 2-3 more years, and consequently I want Nellie to put up or shut up this postseason, and if he shuts up, I want someone else given the opportunity to take the Mavs to the next level.

[kg_veteran]

<< I'll listen to the get rid of nellie crowd as soon as they mention a better coach who has at least:

- Actually head coach successfully for a year.
Or
- Head coach for half a year.
Or
- Actually been completely responsible for the team.
Or
- Taken a completely rotten team and built them up.

Then when you show me THAT coach he will also have had to have
- WON A CHAMPIONSHIP.

Nellie Jr. AIN'T it. So until then it's all silly fan junk. >>



When Phil Jackson took over for Doug Collins, he hadn't done any of the above. He simply took over a team that hadn't quite reached the pinnacle yet, and took them to the next level. That said, I don't think this argument holds much water.



<< Wanting to get rid of nellie now for little nellie is just the normal silly fan wishing the backup quarterback would play because OBVIOUSLY he's better. It sounds even sillier now since no one can say nellie has ever had a team that was really competing for the title. When he did try to address dificiencies in GS webber blows up the team. He surely didn't have the team in milwaukee, ever.

Hmmm.. And right now he has the best record in the league and you knuckleheads want to can him... Wow... >>



I don't want to can Nellie now. I want to give him this postseason to see what he can do. If he gets to the WCF, I say give him another year or two. If not, I say we look at our options.

[TripleDipping]

David, I agree with you that Nellie has done a great job with the team by turning it around after just a few years. However, even when the Mavs are winning every 5 out of 6 games like you said, I'm not happy. The biggest problem with this thread is your title: Who wants to dogpile Nelson after a rare loss?
Rare loss? Haven't we gone thru the debate of who should hold the ball and take the last shot in crunch time many times? Yes I agree that even if Dirk's the one who take the last shot he might not make basket... but Nellie doesn't even seem to try that.
If we were teams like Rockets, Suns or even the Pacers (up-and-coming-teams), I can accept this defeat on the terms of &quot;rare loss&quot;. But for the Mavericks, this is not a rare loss. The talk about protecting large leads and letting the hot hands carry the team is as stale as yesterday's leftover dinner but yet we saw the same mistakes in the Bucks game. I can't figure out why Nelson ran an isolation for Finley at the end of that game when Finley has been stone cold since a few games back. Dirk was the high-point man that night and he was double-teamed every time he got the ball... rationality will tell you that Dirk should have held the ball, if not taken the shot, in the last few seconds of the game.
I'm not a Nellie hater, and definitely not a pro-Dirk guy. I just want to see our team wins games that we're suppose to win. This is a team that's talking about conference finals and an NBA title... but all I see now is all talk but no walk.
So, to reiterate my point, NO I don't want to dogpile Nelson because I believe he CAN lead this team to success and it's not all his fault in the loss to Milwaukee. However, anyone who says the loss to the Bucks was a rare one is wrong IMO.

[FilthyFinMavs]

I agree with your post David. Can anyone tell me why do they think Little Nellie is gonna get us farther then Nellie will in the playoffs? You give coaches like little Nellie to teams that are young and inexperience. How can you be upset about Nellie first of all taking us to the playoffs for the first time in a 11 years and so far taking us the playoffs 2 years straight? How can you get upset at him for sweeping a team in the first round last season? Do you guys expect a team who has just made the playoffs 2 years straight to be better then a team who has had more experience and still haven't won the championship themselves? I wonder do Kings fans want Aldeman out of there for not getting them past the WCF?

[ArcticBlast]

Personally, I agree with you David. I've always thought you were a little over-defensive of him, but not this time.

He should be gotten rid of if the Mavericks are not an improved team at the end of this year from the way they were last year. However, thus far Nelson has proved that he can improve the team every year. If that growth stops, these arguments that he's not good for the team anymore will make sense. For now? I simply don't see anything to back the arguments up.

He's not a championship coach? He hasn't had a championship team. Why don't we give him the chance to prove himself now that he has one? One that he built, I might add. One that's 25-5.

Those that keep saying that they don't care about how many wins he has in the regular season, he can't exactly prove himself in the playoffs this year with this team until the postseason, can he?

[dude1394]

<< Rare loss? Haven't we gone thru the debate of who should hold the ball and take the last shot in crunch time many times? Yes I agree that even if Dirk's the one who take the last shot he might not make basket... but Nellie doesn't even seem to try that.
>>



I think I need more than speculation to back this up, possibly some numbers if you could find them on touches in the fourth or something like that. Last year for example steve/dirk were the two people who took over down the stretch. They won many,many games for us.

last year in the last game against san antonio, I think dirk took the last shot. I've seen him take the last shot many times. Last year he and steve for example owned the &quot;crunch time&quot; index numbers for most of the year wherein the players who had the most impact in the last minutes of the game.

All that being said it does drive me a little cuckoo that it seems that dirk doesn't touch the ball as much as I would like. But look at the sac series last year, he touched it all of the time and couldn't do much with it. Couldn't really beat hedo or the double team or pass out of it.

I also don't go back and slow-mo rerun every game, chart every touch, I wish there were something out there to give us more definitive answers. But in my mind there is no definitive proof that if dirk got the ball on the low-blocks more that we would score more or win more, in fact a valid case could be made that it would just slow our overall scoring down and change the complexion of the team. I know that many folks on this board do not LIKE the complexion of our team as it is not the traditional power team, but right now they are the best team in the world, so I would expect nelson to at least get his shot at winning it all.

[LRB]

Just remember that Jr. has never failed to take an NBA team to the WCF as head coach.






Of cource he's never been head coach of an NBA team during the playoffs, but that's beside the point.

Oh and for all you making ridiculous points about if Nellie left it could affect the chemistry of the team and the players. Did it affect the Bulls when Phil Jackson left? Oh, just that Michael guy decided to retire again.

Be very, very, very careful what you wish for because you just may get it.

WARNING: THIS POST CONTAINS MATERIAL THAT MAY BE CONSIDERED SARCASTIC AND SHOULD BE REVIEWED BY MATURE AUDIENCES ONLY.

[dude1394]

<<

When Phil Jackson took over for Doug Collins, he hadn't done any of the above. He simply took over a team that hadn't quite reached the pinnacle yet, and took them to the next level. That said, I don't think this argument holds much water. >>



I'll take your word on it. Doug Collins also had Michael Jordan from lottery pick in 84 till 89 when he was replaced. Their record from 84-89 was:

84 - 38-44
85 - 30-52
86 - 40-42
87 - 50-32
88 - 47-35
Then Jackzen
89 - 55-27
90 - 61-21 Champions

So when Nellie goes DOWN in wins you can certainly make a good case for going in another direction, until then enjoy the ride, I know I will. Even making a knee-jerk reaction to even this years playoff run might seem pre-mature.

[LRB]

<<

<<

When Phil Jackson took over for Doug Collins, he hadn't done any of the above. He simply took over a team that hadn't quite reached the pinnacle yet, and took them to the next level. That said, I don't think this argument holds much water. >>



I'll take your word on it. Doug Collins also had Michael Jordan from lottery pick in 84 till 89 when he was replaced. Their record from 84-89 was:

84 - 38-44
85 - 30-52
86 - 40-42
87 - 50-32
88 - 47-35
Then Jackzen
89 - 55-27
90 - 61-21 Champions

So when Nellie goes DOWN in wins you can certainly make a good case for going in another direction, until then enjoy the ride, I know I will. Even making a knee-jerk reaction to even this years playoff run might seem pre-mature. >>



Good post Dude.

I have a few questions for the those who want to replace Nellie now and are using the Phil Jackson replacing Doug Collins as an example of why it would be good. If Phil had replaced Doug a year earlier, would the Bulls have won their 1st championship a year earlier? Could they have beaten the Pistons and Blazers that year or would they have still needed another year for the players and team to mature? If Phil had actually won less games the Doug the previous year would Phil have still kept his job long enough to coach the Bulls to the 1st of 6 NBA titles?

Let's say we replace Nellie with Jr. this year and Jr. can't take us to the WCF. Do we fire Jr. during the summer? Or do we give him a year to prove himself? Let's say we give him a year and at this point next year we are 20-10 instead of 25-5. That's still a very good record, but a step backward. Do we then fire Jr. Ok let's say that we do (gotta keep somewhat with the knee jerk theme here) and replace him with AJ. AJ can't get us to the WCF. We fire him in the summer because he didn't take us to the WCF. We then hire one of Rick Adelmans assistants to coach off of the back-to-back champion Kings. The 1st 30 games we go 16-14 as players struggle to learn the nuances of their 4th coach is 2 years. We fire him.

This isn't best case scenario, but it isn't worst case either. You fire Nellie when the Mavs are doing great and when we hit the 1st substantial slump as a team just watch and see how players chemistry will be.

Also, consider this: we may need to put Raef in the doghouse for a year to get him to where he needs to be. Next year might be the year for us. We could win no matter who is coaching. We could only win if Jr. is coaching. We could only win if Nellie is coaching. The odds are in favor of keeping Nellie as long as the team continues to improve. Once improvement plateaus or declines does the risk of change begin to become attractive.

Thank goodness Jerry Krause isn't making the decision for the Mavs.

[kg_veteran]

<<

<<

When Phil Jackson took over for Doug Collins, he hadn't done any of the above. He simply took over a team that hadn't quite reached the pinnacle yet, and took them to the next level. That said, I don't think this argument holds much water. >>



I'll take your word on it. >>



You don't have to take my word for it. Phil Jackson's first head coaching job in the NBA was with the Bulls. Consequently, he couldn't have:



<< - Actually head coach successfully for a year.
Or
- Head coach for half a year.
Or
- Actually been completely responsible for the team.
Or
- Taken a completely rotten team and built them up. >>



Your position was that we shouldn't talk about Donnie because he's never done any of those things. My point is that those things don't necessarily mean anything (using Jackson as an example).



<< Doug Collins also had Michael Jordan from lottery pick in 84 till 89 when he was replaced. Their record from 84-89 was:

84 - 38-44
85 - 30-52
86 - 40-42
87 - 50-32
88 - 47-35
Then Jackzen
89 - 55-27
90 - 61-21 Champions

So when Nellie goes DOWN in wins you can certainly make a good case for going in another direction, until then enjoy the ride, I know I will. Even making a knee-jerk reaction to even this years playoff run might seem pre-mature. >>



Again, for your argument to be correct, the definition of success must mean regular season wins. The Bulls went to the second round in 1987, only to be eliminated by the Pistons. The Bulls then traded for Bill Cartwright, resulting in a lower regular season win total in 1988 while the players acclimated to one another, but they made it to the ECF, where they were eliminated 4-2 (by the Pistons). Thus, Doug Collins was fired despite having his most successful season.

I'm willing to give Nellie more time if he makes it to the WCF. If not, I'm really not, whether he wins more regular season games or not.

[kg_veteran]

<< Good post Dude.

I have a few questions for the those who want to replace Nellie now and are using the Phil Jackson replacing Doug Collins as an example of why it would be good. >>



To start, I was merely using the Jackson example to refute Dude's argument, which was essentially that Donnie shouldn't even be considered to replace Nellie because he doesn't have &quot;skins on the wall.&quot; I wasn't saying that because Jackson succeeded that Donnie necessarily will. I was only saying that sometimes a head coaching change is made even if a team continues to improve, because the change is necessary to have the correct mentality (and/or coach) to succeed in the playoffs. That's what happened with the Bulls. Collins was fired for the sole reason that Krause didn't believe that he was the one to take that team to a championship.



<< If Phil had replaced Doug a year earlier, would the Bulls have won their 1st championship a year earlier? Could they have beaten the Pistons and Blazers that year or would they have still needed another year for the players and team to mature? If Phil had actually won less games the Doug the previous year would Phil have still kept his job long enough to coach the Bulls to the 1st of 6 NBA titles? >>



See above.



<< Let's say we replace Nellie with Jr. this year and Jr. can't take us to the WCF. Do we fire Jr. during the summer? Or do we give him a year to prove himself? Let's say we give him a year and at this point next year we are 20-10 instead of 25-5. That's still a very good record, but a step backward. Do we then fire Jr. Ok let's say that we do (gotta keep somewhat with the knee jerk theme here) and replace him with AJ. AJ can't get us to the WCF. We fire him in the summer because he didn't take us to the WCF. We then hire one of Rick Adelmans assistants to coach off of the back-to-back champion Kings. The 1st 30 games we go 16-14 as players struggle to learn the nuances of their 4th coach is 2 years. We fire him. >>



So is it your position then that Donnie's not a good candidate to replace Nellie simply because we don't know for certain whether he will win a title or not? If so, I suppose we could make that argument every single time a coach is replaced. You don't KNOW whether his replacement WILL do better. You have to speculate. And that's what we're doing, based upon what we know about Nellie and Donnie.

The better question is, &quot;Do you honestly see Nellie as being capable of coaching this team to a title? And if so, how long do you give him to prove that he really is?&quot;



<< This isn't best case scenario, but it isn't worst case either. You fire Nellie when the Mavs are doing great and when we hit the 1st substantial slump as a team just watch and see how players chemistry will be. >>



Again, I'm advocating that Cuban wait and see how the team does in the playoffs this year. If they make it to the WCF, keep him around for a couple more years. If not, you simply promote Donnie and let Nellie be the GM, per his existing contract. That wouldn't involve firing Nellie at all. Also, I don't buy the argument that a slump under Donnie would hurt chemistry. Donnie's been with this team since the beginning (of Nellie's tenure), and the players all know and respect him.



<< Also, consider this: we may need to put Raef in the doghouse for a year to get him to where he needs to be. >>



Nellie's even said he can't afford to do that.



<< Next year might be the year for us. We could win no matter who is coaching. We could only win if Jr. is coaching. We could only win if Nellie is coaching. The odds are in favor of keeping Nellie as long as the team continues to improve. Once improvement plateaus or declines does the risk of change begin to become attractive. >>



Again, if they make the WCF, I have no problem re-upping with Nellie for 1 or 2 more years. If not, I do.

[dude1394]

I happen to agree with your statements about seeing how nellie progresses with this team. If they are every bit as competitive in the finals as their regular season record shows I see nothing but downside in replacing him.

And in all fairness some of my comments about little whistle were tongue in cheek. I actually like little whistle a lot, but there is a risky element to hiring donnie over don. And I think fairly because he hasn't even been a head coach anywhere that I know of.

Since I didn't know Jackson's history I looked it up. As far as experience in being a head coach he really has a lot more than little whistle, at least 5 full years of head-coaching experience including a championship. Here's some tidbits I got off the web somewhere:

After a year he rejoined the Nets and did some television commentary on television, then he returned to coaching with the Albany Patroons of the Continental Basketball Association, also coaching summers in Puerto Rico. In five seasons in Albany, Jackson steered the Patroons to a league title and won a CBA Coach of the Year Award.

Jackson left the Patroons after the 1986-87 season with a 117-90 career record and landed a job as an assistant coach with the Chicago Bulls. Jordan had just won his first of seven straight scoring titles in 1986-87, but under Collins the Bulls had gone 40-42. Jordan averaged 35.0 points in 1987-88 and Chicago improved to 50 wins, but was ousted in the playoffs.

[kg_veteran]

<< I happen to agree with your statements about seeing how nellie progresses with this team. If they are every bit as competitive in the finals as their regular season record shows I see nothing but downside in replacing him. >>



If their regular season record is any indication, they should win the title this year, which would make us all happy. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]



<< And in all fairness some of my comments about little whistle were tongue in cheek. I actually like little whistle a lot, but there is a risky element to hiring donnie over don. And I think fairly because he hasn't even been a head coach anywhere that I know of. >>



I agree there's risk in making Donnie head coach in that there's a possibility the team might not fare as well. Also, I see your point about him not having NBA head coaching experience. At the same time, though, many NBA coaches tend to do the best at their first stop, so don't know if that matters. Also, I'm willing to take the risk with Donnie because I don't think that Nellie is a championship coach, and I think Donnie might be. Let's hope he proves me wrong.



<< Since I didn't know Jackson's history I looked it up. As far as experience in being a head coach he really has a lot more than little whistle, at least 5 full years of head-coaching experience including a championship. Here's some tidbits I got off the web somewhere:

After a year he rejoined the Nets and did some television commentary on television, then he returned to coaching with the Albany Patroons of the Continental Basketball Association, also coaching summers in Puerto Rico. In five seasons in Albany, Jackson steered the Patroons to a league title and won a CBA Coach of the Year Award.

Jackson left the Patroons after the 1986-87 season with a 117-90 career record and landed a job as an assistant coach with the Chicago Bulls. Jordan had just won his first of seven straight scoring titles in 1986-87, but under Collins the Bulls had gone 40-42. Jordan averaged 35.0 points in 1987-88 and Chicago improved to 50 wins, but was ousted in the playoffs. >>



I meant NBA head coaching experience, and even though Donnie has done a lot of head coaching work internationally (remember the near debacle in Sydney?), I see your point about Jackson's CBA work. Still, I think Donnie has enough experience to get the job done, and enough familiarity with the team to make a seamless transition into the position.

[LRB]

KG: The point that I was making is that we can't be sure that the change to Phil Jackson was what caused the Bulls to go to the next level and win a championship. There are arguments that can be made either way. However, they did win under Phil, so it is possible to make a coaching change and have success. A big difference with Doug was that he had lost many of the players. So far Nellie does not appear to have done this.

Krause did want to get rid of Collins, but he also wanted to get rid of Jackson and eventually did. Mainly I think Krause was jealous of any coach whose success took the limelight away from Krause. And I think MJ had more to do with the championships than any coach. But who knows for sure.

I just think the Collins/Jackson argument is fine for showing that a coaching change can work, but not for you have to make a coaching change. Remeber the Bulls had to get and adjust to Bill Cartwright, mature as a team, and gain playoff experience. Also conviently the Pistons started their nose dive the year the Bulls won their 1st championship. Jackson may have played a part but it wasn't the biggest part IMO.

Also, if the timing of the Jackson move had been made earlier, he might not have worked out. We won't ever know for sure one way or the other.

BTW I do like Jr. I think that he will make a great head coach someday. I just am leary of making any change when we are having unprecedented success. There is not much better that we can get, but there is a whole lot worse that we can get. Jr. might not do as well as we think at least as soon as we think. If we replace Nellie and the team takes a step back in adjusting to the new coach what do we do? That is the question that scares me the most. Once the knee jerking starts, it can lead to a nose dive. But I do agree if this team gets to the point that it cannot reasonably win the title under Nellie, we have to make a change. I just think that we are a good ways from that point.

What do I expect of this team. Regular season I expect a division title and at least the #2 seeding in the western conference finals. I expect us to be highly competitive in the 2nd round. But I can accept losing to a team with superior talent, but not if we aren't competitive which we haven't been so far. By competitive I mean we should at least win more home games than we lose which hasn't happend yet in the 2nd round. All of this is barring major injuries. With mojor injuries we will need to reevalute with the talent we have. After all the 94 Bulls couldn't win a 3th championship in a row without Michael Jordan.

I understand your concern and others that we need to get to the WCF this year or make a change. I'm just prepared to be a little more patient. Things might take a little bit more time to develop than we would like. Dirk is still very young to lead this team as the superstar. I think he needs at least 1 more year and that will still be incredibly early. And yes Nellie has said that he can't afford to wait a year on Raef, but didn't he say something similar about Shawn last year? Anyways its not Nellies choice how long it takes but Raefs. Nellie might not have a choice if it takes a year. Nellie may need another year to get this team ready to play championship basketball. He's done a wonderful job of improving the defense this year. I'm sure rebounding will be improved once we get some of our injured back. That's a lot of improvement from last year. We still have othe issues to address. But as with all things these take time. That's why I disagree slightly with you and what constitues success this year.

Let's just hope the Mavs with it all this year and then all our arguments will be moot point.

[The Crippler]

It might be the players and not the coach.

[Dooby]

If the triangle were so great and so important to his success, MJ would have hired Cleamons to run it in D.C.

The triangle is crap. During PJ's first year, Phil played the triangle the first 3 quarters and then turned MJ loose once they were down double digits in the 4th quarter.

[David]

At what point in Nelson's career has Nelson had the team to beat in the NBA?

At what point in Nelson's career did Nelson have one of the top 5 teams in the NBA, until now?

If Nelson had the best team, and was blowing it in the playoffs, I could understand the sentiment that he can't coach a team to the championship. So far, Nelson has only had teams that overachieved. Nelson gets a lot out of the talent on hand.

This year, are the Mavs the best team in the NBA? Personally, I don't think so. I think the Kings are deeper and farther along. Does that mean that if the Mavs don't beat the Kings in the playoffs, that Nelson has blown it? Again, I don't think so. I think it means the Mavs got beat by the better team.

This BS about the regular season not meaning anything. Doesn't a team have to win enough regular season games to get INTO the playoffs? Isn't that job one? Hasn't NBA history shown that it is rare for a team to just show up in the playoffs and win it all the first year? Didn't all the teams that won several times, have teams that they had to hurdle first? Detroit and the Lakers as an example and the Bulls overcoming the Pistons, after a couple of playoff series losses, as another example. There are others.

It looks like the Kings are in the midst of getting over their Laker hurdle. Last year, I thought the Kings were the best team in the NBA. I thought the Mavs were better, before the Kings series, but the Kings made a believer out of me.

I see the Mavs with a Spur, King AND Lakers hurdle to get over before they win the championship. If the Mavs lose to superior teams, does that mean Nelson can't coach in the playoffs?

[LRB]

<< At what point in Nelson's career did Nelson have one of the top 5 teams in the NBA, until now? >>



David: I pretty much agree with everything you said. But the Smart Ass nit picker in me has prompted me to do a premptive strike on a minor point. Nellies Bucks in the early 80's were regarded by most a the 4th best team behind the Lakers, Celtics, and 76ers (the order of the 3 varying from year to year, but the bucks always being 4th). IMO Don Nelson is one of the top reasons Dr. J only has 1 NBA championship ring. After going through grueling 7 game series with the Bucks the 76ers didn't have enough in the tank to put the Celtics away allowing Boston to come back from a 3-1 deficit to go on to beat the Rockets in the Finals. May or may not have made a difference. But despite the inaccuracy Nellies Bucks were never rated higher than 3rd in their conference. Even if you list the Kings as best as many do, the Mavs are at least #2 in most peoples books. That's better than Nellie has ever had.

Nellie has also reached the conference finals beating the favored celtics 4-0 to do so and losing to the 76ers 5-1. The one loss was the 76ers only one in the playoffs that year.

[MFFL]

<< I see the Mavs with a Spur, King AND Lakers hurdle to get over before they win the championship. If the Mavs lose to superior teams, does that mean Nelson can't coach in the playoffs? >>



But what is Nellie doing to pass those teams? All of those teams are better defensively. All of those teams have go to players. All of those teams have effective half court sets. All of those teams play straight up basketball. All of those teams are better playoff teams.

We're not going to gimmick our way to a title.

[kg_veteran]

<< What do I expect of this team. Regular season I expect a division title and at least the #2 seeding in the western conference finals. I expect us to be highly competitive in the 2nd round. But I can accept losing to a team with superior talent, but not if we aren't competitive which we haven't been so far. By competitive I mean we should at least win more home games than we lose which hasn't happend yet in the 2nd round. All of this is barring major injuries. With mojor injuries we will need to reevalute with the talent we have. After all the 94 Bulls couldn't win a 3th championship in a row without Michael Jordan. >>



If the Mavs win more home games than they lose in the second round this year, it seems that they would necessarily win that series, because they’re going to have homecourt advantage in the second round, barring a major collapse. Also, what teams do you consider to have superior talent? In my mind, only the Kings are more talented than the Mavericks, and that’s not a huge gap, even with Sacramento’s bench superiority. But they’re not going to meet Sacramento in the second round, since both are well on track to win their divisions. If they lose a competitive series to San Antonio in the second round, I’m not gonna be happy, because I don’t think they have more talent.

And yeah, if injuries enter the picture, we obviously can’t hold Nellie to the same standards...



<< I understand your concern and others that we need to get to the WCF this year or make a change. I'm just prepared to be a little more patient. Things might take a little bit more time to develop than we would like. Dirk is still very young to lead this team as the superstar. I think he needs at least 1 more year and that will still be incredibly early. And yes Nellie has said that he can't afford to wait a year on Raef, but didn't he say something similar about Shawn last year? Anyways its not Nellies choice how long it takes but Raefs. Nellie might not have a choice if it takes a year. Nellie may need another year to get this team ready to play championship basketball. He's done a wonderful job of improving the defense this year. I'm sure rebounding will be improved once we get some of our injured back. That's a lot of improvement from last year. We still have othe issues to address. But as with all things these take time. That's why I disagree slightly with you and what constitues success this year. >>



That’s fair enough, because at least we’ve defined our disagreement. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I’ll be patient with Nellie if he’ll simply ditch Underdog Ball and play opponents straight up.



<< Let's just hope the Mavs with it all this year and then all our arguments will be moot point. >>



Wouldn’t that be beautiful...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[kg_veteran]

<< At what point in Nelson's career has Nelson had the team to beat in the NBA? >>



Since the team to beat is usually the champs, I guess the answer is never.



<< At what point in Nelson's career did Nelson have one of the top 5 teams in the NBA, until now? >>



Last year.



<< If Nelson had the best team, and was blowing it in the playoffs, I could understand the sentiment that he can't coach a team to the championship. So far, Nelson has only had teams that overachieved. Nelson gets a lot out of the talent on hand. >>



And I think Nellie's system does get a lot out of the team -- during the regular season. But when playoff basketball rolls around, it honestly is a different game, and I think that the team should be doing things that prepare it to succeed in that arena, even if it is at the expense of a few regular season wins. The Mavericks might not should have beaten the Kings, but they shouldn't have lost 4-1. That's underachieving.



<< This year, are the Mavs the best team in the NBA? Personally, I don't think so. I think the Kings are deeper and farther along. Does that mean that if the Mavs don't beat the Kings in the playoffs, that Nelson has blown it? Again, I don't think so. I think it means the Mavs got beat by the better team. >>



I agree with you. I also think the Kings are the best team in the NBA. And if the Mavericks lose to the Kings in the WCF, I can live with that. If Nellie gets them to the WCF to face the Kings, I say give him more time to try and topple the Kings. But I honestly don't think that there are any other teams in the West that have more talent or should be better than the Mavs. Do you?