We need Fin's replacement - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

bgrant44 · 07-05-2005, 11:45 PM

I saw most of MAVS game. But, just overview by Stats Analysis.

FACTS

1>Last year, Mavs were 48-16 with Fin, 10-8 without.
-> We need a player like Fin.

2> When Dirk's 20+ games...Record 47-20
When Dirk's 30+ games...Record 20-3
-> Dirk only is not enough..

3> If There are two 20+ points getter
Regular season Record 33-7
PlayOff Record 4-3
-> We can win easily with one more 1-tier player beside Dirk.

3.1> When Fin get 20+points
Regular season Record 18-1
PlayOff Record 2-0(among 13 games..only 2 game??Was it that much difficult for you?)

3.2>When Quis get 20+points
Regular season Record 3-0(3 starting)
-> It's hopeful...

3.3>Stack got 20+
Regular season Record 7-4
-> I don't think we will get more win with stack's starting. Fin knows the system..Stack doesn't know fully.

3.4>Terry got 20+
Regular season Record 6-5(59.4%FG, 42.9% 3PT, 91.2%FT, 24.2PPG, 6.4APG..Good stats..but even game)

3.5> KVH got 20+ from the bench..
Record 3-0

3.6> Interesting...Josh got 20+
Record 10-3
D. Nowitzki is 2nd option.(22.9PPG, 10RPG, 42.7%FG, 44.4% 3PT, 85.4%FT, 185 FG shot...)
J. Howard IS 1st option(23.6PPG, 9.2RPG, 58.2%FG, 52% 3PT, 85%FT..Monster!!! But, He shot 194times.)

-> Is he a ballhog? Except him, No 20+getterTried FG more than Dirk..No Stack, No terry.

We all know Fin isn't consistent to make 20+ points every day. But We need 20+ for easy win..
Stack..? Terry? KVH?... 'D' is the problem for them.
Quis or Josh?....I like them But Key is consistency as a second option. Especially, Josh took Dirk's chance.

Who will be good with Fin's leave???
Quis will be better option from the MAVS inside. However, I like Paul Pierce. This year will be his best year.

P.S Remark Bang in our summerleague Team. He was best 3P shooter in NBDL Roanoke Dazzles.
Last year, Chauncey Billups and Prince gave high value on him. He is weak at the NBA-level defence.
I heard his overall play became better than his college year in korea

Thespiralgoeson · 07-05-2005, 11:51 PM

All we need at the 2 spot is someone who can knock down the three. As for someone to be Dirk's sidekick, I have two words for you... Josh Howard. Josh will average 20 or more, if not next season then the one after. I guarantee it.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 12:04 AM

We're a much better team with Fin than without him. To get a replacement of his talent level will not be cheap. Losing Fin gives us a high probability of waiting at least 1 more year for a championship even under ideal circumstances because we have no 2 guard who knows the system and who has at least a good outside shot waiting to step into the playing rotation. If we find that person and bring them in, it will probably take a year to mesh the team together, meaning we'll be ready for a championship run the following year. Hate to see Mavs in rebuilding mode for potentially no reason at all.

Lebanese_Fan · 07-06-2005, 12:06 AM

Josh is the best player after dirk. He will be an all-star one day (if not next year).

The Miles · 07-06-2005, 12:26 AM

Josh Howard has already basically replaced Michael Finley as Dirks sidekick.

bo319 · 07-06-2005, 08:52 AM

The thing we are overlooking in the Marquis Daniels VS Michael Finley debate/discussusion is handles.
Quis can handle the ball and make plays. I expect some of the shooting that we will miss from Fin will be taken up by JET. I think there will be alot of times that the ball will be in Daniels hands to distribute and Terry will be the spot up shooter waiting for the kick out.
That will ease some of the shooting questions that losing Fin will bring up...we will still need to get a shooter but he does not have to be starter material. Someone off the bench who is strictly a spot up shooter...ala Hoiberg, Piatkowski, etc.

sike · 07-06-2005, 09:20 AM

above average shooters on currently on this roster: Dirk, JET, KVH....and I am being too optimistic to put DH on that list for next season? I think the kid's shot grew leaps and bounds late last season, is there any reason to think he won't improve to be a well above average shooter? Is four shooters enough?

Is it too much to expect a top five pick with more potential than just about anyone to learn how to hit an open jumper? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

jayC · 07-06-2005, 10:21 AM

Avery is a system guy, Nellie was a match-up guy. I wonder what the system will be next year.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bo319
The thing we are overlooking in the Marquis Daniels VS Michael Finley debate/discussusion is handles.
Quis can handle the ball and make plays. I expect some of the shooting that we will miss from Fin will be taken up by JET. I think there will be alot of times that the ball will be in Daniels hands to distribute and Terry will be the spot up shooter waiting for the kick out.
That will ease some of the shooting questions that losing Fin will bring up...we will still need to get a shooter but he does not have to be starter material. Someone off the bench who is strictly a spot up shooter...ala Hoiberg, Piatkowski, etc.

First of all Quis assist to TO ratio flat out stinks. We won't make any progress here unless he improves greatly in this area. Second, Jet can't be 2 places at once, and we still need 2 shooters not named Dirk in the starting lineup or at least playing starter minutes besides Dirk. That kind of leaves KVH out, because he's best spelling Dirk not playing besides him. Thrid if you're going to talk handles, Fin is much better than Hiberg, Piakowski, or most of the other 3pt specialist that we'll likely be able to pick up for the vet minimum (assuming that we use the MLE to fill our backup center need). Fourth, I'm not comfortable playing a vet minimum 3pt specialist 30 minutes per game.

Lebanese_Fan · 07-06-2005, 12:56 PM

If voshon lenard's contract is not picked up (july 14 deadline), i think he is a good reaplacement. Last year, the last couple of games, he played very well. I think he healed fully.

bo319 · 07-06-2005, 01:01 PM

Who said 30 minutes a game for a vet minimum 3 pt shooter? Not I.

Quis's assist to TO rate is indeed bad...but unlike Fin he can drive the ball and has the ability to improve in that department with experience. He did almost get a triple double in his first two starts so he can pass...he just needs to make better decisions with the ball.
I believe that Josh and Quis will be able to at least keep teams honest from the corner...and we all know Terry can hit it from anywhere on the floor.
I wasn't comparing Fin's handles to Hoiberg's or Piatkowski's...I was saying that they are the kind of spot up shooters that we need to bring off the bench to supplement the offense.

I do not neccessarily want to see Finley go...I think it does not help the team...but if Daniels is the real deal like he was his rookie season and we get a 3pt specialist then we may not miss Fin on the floor as much as some people are making out.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 01:11 PM

The bottom line is that Quis has to make significant improvements to be anywhere close to as good as Fin is. For Quis to be a factor with assists, it means taking the ball out of Dirks hands. Last thing I want is Antoine Walker Jr. Fin can be very effective creating for others without having the ball. Quis can't.

Anyway you look at it losing Fin is a significant step down in talent. We'll be fighting just to get into the 2nd round instead of fighting to win a title.

Razor · 07-06-2005, 05:23 PM

Quis will be Fin's replacement

LRB · 07-06-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Razor
Quis will be Fin's replacement

Even if Quis will be as good as Fin this coming season, which I doubt, who will replace Quis?

SeriousSummer · 07-06-2005, 05:51 PM

Quis, Stack, Howard, Terry -- that's enough to cover the two. If Quis plays like many of think he can, then we'll be fine.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: SeriousSummer
Quis, Stack, Howard, Terry -- that's enough to cover the two. If Quis plays like many of think he can, then we'll be fine.

Does fine mean we win a championship? If not, then I wouldn't consider it to be fine.

The Miles · 07-06-2005, 05:56 PM

We have enough players without Fin for the 2/3 spot. Van Horn can get more minutes at the 3, his natural spot anyways, behind Josh.

SeriousSummer · 07-06-2005, 06:01 PM

"Fine" means, in my terms, field a competitive team that has a legitimate shot at going deep into the playoffs, and, if things break just right, might win one. So I think the team will be "fine".

But I was really just talking about Dallas's effectiveness at shooting guard, not the team in general. The last shooting guard (and the only one I remember in the last twenty-five years) that could lead a team to a championship was Michael Jordan.

If your standard for "fine" means winning a championship, then the only teams that were "fine" at shooting guard were Jordan's Chicago teams.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 06:05 PM

KVH sucks in most cases at the 3. Only certain, i.e. much less than most, players does he matchup well with. But you still haven't addressed the loss of talent for nothing in return. Unless we win a title next year, the question will always remain about whether we would hav with Fin. We have the players that we can put people on the court who aren't completely awful at the all 5 positions, but we don't have the personnel to be as good or better than if we kept Fin.

LRB · 07-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: SeriousSummer
"Fine" means, in my terms, field a competitive team that has a legitimate shot at going deep into the playoffs, and, if things break just right, might win one. So I think the team will be "fine".

But I was really just talking about Dallas's effectiveness at shooting guard, not the team in general. The last shooting guard (and the only one I remember in the last twenty-five years) that could lead a team to a championship was Michael Jordan.

If your standard for "fine" means winning a championship, then the only teams that were "fine" at shooting guard were Jordan's Chicago teams.

I never said that Fin would lead us to a championship, just that the loss of his talent for nothing in return hurts our chances. Take Ginobli away from the Spurs this year and they probably don't win the championship. Take Johnson away from the suns and they probably don't play as well. Wait that did happen. Fin is an important cog, not the main machinery. You don't have to be the Finals MVP to make a difference. It's stupdid to give something of value away for nothing and then to think that you have more by doing so.

Mavdog · 07-06-2005, 06:38 PM

This "one time" right to get rid of a contract is going to put some players (like fin) out on the market, players that many of us wouldn't think a team would put into free agency. there's about to be some quality players who are looking for a spot.

in a sense, the mavs won't be getting "nothing for fin" when they do it, they'll get another player for a lot less salary. just like fin will probably get the around the MLE from someone else, we'll get someone that was put into the same situation as fin. seems that we'll have something of value back.

hopefully they'll be as quality a player and person as fin. and hopefuly they'll hit their shots like fin did before last season...

LRB · 07-06-2005, 07:43 PM

Mavdog even if we use the MLE to get this theoretical player which may or may not be on the Market and he's as good as Fin, we've still wasted the MLE to get back to where were talentwise with Fin, only now we don't have the MLE to go after an athletic Big man. so we still get nothing. Even if we get the player for the Vet minimum, which is highly unlikely IMO, we've still got nothing in return for Fin because we could have had both and traded stack or Quis for needs at another position. Bottom line is the fans are subsudizing corporate welfare for Cuban.

toucandave · 07-06-2005, 08:12 PM

LRB, fin sucked last year and is on the downhill side of his career. Sure he's a stand up guy, but character unfortunately doesn't win championships. Fortunately, we do have very nice options in Quis, Stack, and Howard (plus occasionally JET) to play the 2 guard. Give it a rest. Cuban has been very good to us buy spending a boatload of cash on this team. So far no champiionships, but he's trying. Allow him to save some money on a growingly ineffective piece of the puzzle. Fin isn't needed. A nice guy to have off the bench, but nowhere near necessary. We are blessed at the 2/3 position.

Also, you mention loss of talent for nothing in return, What do you think Fin could bring in return? Nothing but crap. Cuban shouldn't have to pay up to double Fins salary for crap. And he shouldn't have to pay up to double Fin's salary for an aging Fin.

Again, give it a rest.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-06-2005, 09:03 PM

You know things are bad when Mavs fans will settle for things like having Terry play the 2 and KVH play the 3 spot. People are looking for someone to play as good as Fin did last year. We need something better than what Finley gave us IMO. Playing on a bum ankle I thought Fin had an okay year. Full of ups and downs but more ups then downs. Every year we should go into the offseason looking to help our team get better. Not be serviceable or fine. Look to upgrade each position on your team until you are convinced its better than the team you threw out the year before. Don't be fine with it.

DNNF · 07-06-2005, 10:21 PM

I would rather have Terry playing the two than I would have Finley. Terry is a better and more consistent shooter and can handle the ball well enough to create his own shots, where Fin only have that dreadful drillble to the left and pull up. Harris should be much better where he can handle half of the PG postion duty for Terry.

In defensive standpoint of Terry and Finley at the two, I don't see that much upside of Finley over Terry. Both are average defenders at best. I could careless about KVH. As far as he concerned, he would only be a tradebait before the deadline this year.

Getting rid of Fin for nothing in return is not good, but all of you know that Fin demands alot of minutes and about 15 shots a game. I would keep him if he agreed to come off the bench and play about 15 to 20 mins/game as a spark.

LRB · 07-07-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: toucandave
LRB, fin sucked last year and is on the downhill side of his career. Sure he's a stand up guy, but character unfortunately doesn't win championships. Fortunately, we do have very nice options in Quis, Stack, and Howard (plus occasionally JET) to play the 2 guard.

1st of all we need JET at the 1 and Howard at the 3 most of their minutes unless we acquire another PG and/or SF. Yes they can play a few minutes there, but Howard lacks the range to keep the D honest and Terry will get totally abused on the Defensive end.

secondly, Fin was injured last year and had an off year for him, still he was better than Stack and significantly better than Quis. Projections are that Fin will come back stronger and better this year.

Quote:

Allow him to save some money on a growingly ineffective piece of the puzzle. Fin isn't needed. A nice guy to have off the bench, but nowhere near necessary. We are blessed at the 2/3 position.

When healthy, Fin is one of the best SG's in the league. Even injured last year he was the best SG on this team. Since we got bumped out in the 2nd round last year, it's pretty arrogant to insinuate that we don't need him. Fin is also much better than anyone else on this team not named Howard at playing the 3. As for Cuban saving money that is absolutely ludicrous that any fan should care. Cuban doesn't need to save money, he has plenty to pay for Fin's salary + max luxary tax + a whole lot more. Also, Cuban is the idiot who signed Fin to a bad contract. And Cuban's investment is greatly appreciating in value every year. I don't give a rat's @$$ about Cuban saving some money that he doesn't need and probably won't miss if it's going to lower the Mavs chance at winning the title, and losing a talent like Fin for nothing certainly lowers our chance at a title.

Quote:

Cuban shouldn't have to pay up to double Fins salary for crap. And he shouldn't have to pay up to double Fin's salary for an aging Fin.

Nobody even knows whether the luxary tax will be in effect for any of the next 3 years. Considering that we only know of 1 year so far that it's been in effect, I would say it's very far from a certainty if it will be in effect at all. And as I've mentioned Cuban signed Fin to the contract, so no one to blame but himself for that. But even if Fin couldn't sign for near the amount remaining on his contract if he was a FA today, that doesn't mean he's not one of the best SG in the league, because he is. You just don't throw talent like that away if you're serious about winning a title.

LRB · 07-07-2005, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: DNNF
Getting rid of Fin for nothing in return is not good, but all of you know that Fin demands alot of minutes and about 15 shots a game. I would keep him if he agreed to come off the bench and play about 15 to 20 mins/game as a spark.

Why should Fin come off the Bench when he's the best SG on the team? Just because Fin isn't as good as he used to be is no reason for him to come off the bench if we don't have a player who better to play his position, and we don't so far.

dirno2000 · 07-07-2005, 01:13 AM

Quote:

secondly, Fin was injured last year and had an off year for him, still he was better than Stack and significantly better than Quis. Projections are that Fin will come back stronger and better this year.

Quis was hurt all of all of last year also (had to wear a nerve deadening patch on his ankle) and I doubt Stack ever fully recovered from his groin strain… at least I hope not since he wore tights in the playoffs. Plus it’s likely that his health will be at least partially offset by another year of age.

If you just look at the numbers, both Stack and Marquis had higher PER’s (Stack-16.26, Quis 14.93, Fin 14.62) higher rebounding ratio’s (Quis-8.6,Stack-6.3,Fin 6.2) and Quis had a higher assist ratio (16.5 vs Fin’s 14.1).

I’m not saying they’re better, only that it’s not as clear cut as you make it sound. If you look at on court/off court numbers Fin looks better but you have to consider that he plays a higher % of his minutes with Dirk than any other player on the team. That’s not the only factor because his +/- with Dirk is slightly better then the other two, but it’s a factor.

The bottom line is, barring injury, we have a log jam at the 2 so somebody has to go. My 1st choice would be Stack but if it’s Fin, I don’t think it will kill the team. The biggest factor in our growth as a team next year is going to be the improvement of the kids. If they get better, we’ll be a better team with our without Fin. Conversely, if they stay the same then even if we bring him back, we’ll probably lose in the 2nd round again.

The Miles · 07-07-2005, 01:25 AM

I think most of us wish it was Stack with the 3 year $51,000,000 deal and Finley with the 2 years $15,000,000 deal, but unfortunately, it isn't that way.

grndmstr_c · 07-07-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

I think most of us wish it was Stack with the 3 year $51,000,000 deal and Finley with the 2 years $15,000,000 deal, but unfortunately, it isn't that way.

That may be the first thing I've ever ever seen you write about this situation with Finley that I agree with.

And congrats on your boy's performance today, Miles. As dirno mentioned in the other thread, if he can do that against Boston's Vegas frontline we might not have to worry so much about that backup center thing after all.

chumdawg · 07-07-2005, 10:20 AM

The problem I have with all this crap is that if the NBA hadn't come up with this one-time amnesty thing, there wouldn't be any talk about the Mavs being better off without Finley. No talk at all! The talk would be about the excitement surrounding Fin coming off successful surgery and possibly returning to deadly form next year. The talk would be about "loving this team" and having the right mix of veteran and young players.

So I'm about sick and goddamned tired of hearing things like "hey, everybody loves Fin, but he makes too much money so he has to go." Bull-effing-crap. A month ago those words would have never come out of anyone's mouth.

Now, if the amnesty thing makes some sort of trade possible that wasn't possible before, and that trade helps the club, I'll have to swallow my appreciation for Fin and embrace the new guy(s). But if it makes a simple waiving possible, then I will never even THINK about buying another ticket to a Mavericks game. Hey, those tickets are expensive. Beer is six bucks a pop, too. I've got to think about my bottom line here. I can buy that same beer at the store for a dollar, and sit on my couch and watch the game for free. As long as everyone's in cost-cutting mode, I will be too!

LRB · 07-07-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

The problem I have with all this crap is that if the NBA hadn't come up with this one-time amnesty thing, there wouldn't be any talk about the Mavs being better off without Finley.

How true. The only person that can potentially gain something by Fin leaving ( other than the lesser players who'll get more PT) is Mark Cuban. Fin leaving doesn't do jack squat for the fans. Maybe if Mark took that theoretical $51 million savings and divided it amony the season ticket holders to make their tickets cheaper, it might mean something, but he's not. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see tickets go up soon. Mark Cuban doesn't need the money, he has plenty and is making even more with his investment in the Mavs. At most it helps his cash flow. But it's pretty crummy for a billionaire to shaft the fans over improving his cash flow marginally. Especially when it's far from a forgone conclusion that waiving Fin will provide any benefit at all to Cuban.

What's even worse is the fans who come out and talk like Fin is an NBA bottom feeder that probably should be in the NBDL if playing basketball at all.

And I'm with you Chum, I wish we could sit back and anticipate Fin coming back healthy this coming season.

KennyDirk · 07-07-2005, 10:38 AM

I'm with chum I too will not go to any games and be in cost cutting mode. Someone posted that Jordan was the last true sg that won a championship, what about the last couple of years? each team had a defining sg that won it, RIP, Manu, Kobe.

Fin is our heart and soul and i am sure he'd bounce back from his bad year, but you gotta think what hes going through hearing these news about him being gone, and sudenlly they decide they wanna keep him.

How about dirk and his relation with fin? we know what happened with dirk when nash left, what about fin. If dirk had a bad game u know fin would pick up the slack, yeh he missed a few in the playoffs but we're all mortal.

We watch the team for whats on the front of the team, but at the same time we also watch the team for the players on there. We grow up watching and enjoying the players on the team. SA enjoys watching TD< Manu<Parker and them growing together and winning. LA enjoyed Kobe and Shaq till they screwed eachother. Detroit enjoys the bunch they have.
(
With our mavs the only player it seems we're allowed to enjoy is dirk(though im sure he can be tradeble) and cuban (cuz hes always there). Everyone else is expendeble.

I never was a maverick fan until I moved back to Dallas 7 years ago. I've been a fan of the chicago glory days, and I enjoyed it cuz the core was together, an evolving MJ, and Pip.

Since being a mavs fan I have enjoyed Fin a lot and loved his game. and I for one would totally miss it, because it would be different to see a mavs team without Fin.

kg_veteran · 07-07-2005, 10:44 AM

chum - You make some pretty good points. I think the team can survive Finley's departure, but it's certainly not cause for celebration.

Bookit · 07-07-2005, 11:02 AM

It seems logical that Cuban approached Avery about Finley's future role and Avery wants to go in another direction. The money savings likely only started the conversation. Cuban wouldn't cut Fin if Avery wanted him to be a major factor in the team going forward. There is no way that Cuban cuts a major player to save cash. No way. It makes no sense.

rakesh.s · 07-07-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

When healthy, Fin is one of the best SG's in the league.

We're all mavs fans, but if this isn't getting carried away, I don't know what is..

Finley is an average 15 point scorer who shoots 3s..He can't pass, can't dribble, can't defend and can't rebound. What makes him one of the best SG's in the league?

I can think of at least 10 guys that are better than him. In no particular order -

Allen
Kobe
Tmac
Carter
Pierce
Ginobili
Mobley(he's a better defender)
Carmelo(better rebounder)
Lebron
Jalen Rose
Artest
Rip Hamilton
Michael Redd
Larry Hughes
Jason Richardson
Maggette
Joe Johnson

Finley is a 3rd or 4th tier shooting guard on par with Mike Miller..

LRB · 07-07-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Finley is an average 15 point scorer who shoots 3s..He can't pass, can't dribble, can't defend and can't rebound.

Obviously you haven't watched Fin play because he does all of those every game he plays.

alby · 07-07-2005, 11:50 AM

Mike Miller and Brent Barry, but IMO even I think they are better because as a guard, you need to be able to handle the ball.

cripple balls · 07-07-2005, 12:14 PM

Shooting guard is the least important position on the court. Upgrading our big people should always be 1st priority. We already have two capable 2 guards in Stack and Quis. Finley needed to go anyway.

LRB · 07-07-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: cripple balls
Shooting guard is the least important position on the court. Upgrading our big people should always be 1st priority. We already have two capable 2 guards in Stack and Quis. Finley needed to go anyway.

WTH??? Why did Fin need to go away??? And if we did indeed need to lose a 2 guard why not trade Quis or Stack and get some talent back? Keeping Fin in no way prohibits us from acquiring big people and making that our 1st priority.