Will be Rashard Lewis? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

DIRK BRASIL · 07-25-2002, 09:55 AM

I don't know if Rashard Lewis would be the solution for us.
A team that has with Finley, Nash and, mainly,
Nowitzki, the solution would be a more player of defense. Keon Clark is a good name.
Suggestion: to sign with a PG to come of Nash's bench(Travis Best)and trade Nick for Olowokandi or Keon Clark.
What do you think?

madape · 07-25-2002, 10:02 AM

If you have the opportunity to get a stud like Rashard Lewis, you do it. I don't care if he fits a need or not. If we pass him up now for Keon Clark, we'll be kicking ourselves two years from now. He is arguably a better two guard than Finley is now, and I guarantee Lewis will be in a different class all together in two years.

Its been argued that the Mavs need an upgrade at center, and Keon Clark is the best free agent center out there. But he is not any kind of real long term solution at the position. In fact, I don't think he'd even get many minutes right now if he were to come here. I know its just my opinion, and I'm just a stupid fan, but I think we've got three centers on the roster now that are better than Keon Clark.

Olowakandi for NVE would be nice, but I doubt it would ever happen. Maybe if we threw in Finley.. hmmm. Nash, Lewis, Dirk, Raef, Kandi sounds pretty vicious.

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 10:31 AM

Signing Lewis makes LaF more likely to be expendable, IMO.

Do it.

threadkilla · 07-25-2002, 10:34 AM

Maybe that is the question. Is Lewis a better fit then LaFrentz? Is he a better player? He is only one inch shorter. I think you may be right. Signing Lewis may allow us to deal LaFrentz down the road when the opportunity presents itself...

Nellie · 07-25-2002, 10:37 AM

<< Signing Lewis makes LaF more likely to be expendable, IMO.

Do it. >>

First off, LaFrentz just signed a contract so he can't be traded for awhile. Secondly, I disagree with you that he is expendable. The last thing the Mavs need to do right now is give up a starting F/C. Plus, all the Raef doubters out there will be sold on him this year, mark my words on that!!

Nellie · 07-25-2002, 10:39 AM

<< Maybe that is the question. Is Lewis a better fit then LaFrentz >>

How do you figure this statement is true??? (you answered yes to it I think). There is no way the Mavericks need another scorer before thay need interior presence. What team are you watching?? If you are looking at who to trade on this team after getting Lewis, it would not be Raef. A guy named Nick would be the card to play.

jacktruth · 07-25-2002, 10:39 AM

Raef is 6-11. Lewis is 6-11.

Drbio · 07-25-2002, 10:41 AM

Nellie- this is semantics probably, but it is my understanding that Raef agreed to terms but still hasn't signed yet. It's a done deal, but....

Nellie · 07-25-2002, 10:41 AM

<< Raef is 6-11. Lewis is 6-11. >>

So what?? Their games aren't the same.

Murphy3 · 07-25-2002, 10:41 AM

lafrentz is a 4-5, lewis is a 2-3.. they really don't have alot to do with each other..whether raef is expendable or not really doesn't depend on rashard lewis being a mav

jacktruth · 07-25-2002, 10:42 AM

So what?? Their games aren't the same.

I know. It's just that you said he was 1" shorter. Nothing personal.

Nellie · 07-25-2002, 10:45 AM

<< I know. It's just that you said he was 1" shorter. Nothing personal. >>

I didn't say that so I assume you are talking to threadkilla.

Nellie · 07-25-2002, 10:51 AM

<< Nellie- this is semantics probably, but it is my understanding that Raef agreed to terms but still hasn't signed yet. It's a done deal, but.... >>

Let's put it this way, the stupidest possible thing the Mavericks could do right now is blow it with LaFrentz cause they are intrigued by Lewis. Shard is a very nice player but and would be nice to have. But let's make it clear here that Lewis does not address any weaknesses that we have. If we can get Lewis signed, great. But to only be able to sign Lewis by giving up Raef?? That is way too risky. If NVE can get us KT, then Raef stays.

Stupid, stupid, stupid if the Mavs lose Raef over this!!

Drbio · 07-25-2002, 10:53 AM

No way in hell Raef goes anywhere. Relax. It's not an either/or issue.

seelenjaeger · 07-25-2002, 10:55 AM

Actually having Lewis would adress our defensive troubles in a way ...

1) It would allow Finley to play the SG. He´s got good size for this position, and he´s able to defend somewhat better by knowing his players won´t be able to shoot overhim nor can they overpower him.

2) It helps our rebounding game. Lewis at 3 and Finley at two isn´t exaclty a bad Rebounding team - if everyone does his job.

And it still makes our "if you can´t defend them, outscore them" stronger.

He might not be the PLAN, but he´s hell of an "emergency plan".

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 11:00 AM

If the Mavs get another big scorer in the frontcourt, they don't have to depend on LaF's dubious 3-pt shooting ability to generate points from the outside, and take some of the scoring burden/defensive pressure off Dirk. But they WILL need a utility player who will set picks, swing the ball, and hit the boards. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be Raef's game.

Raef becomes another tradeable asset a la NVE, and the Mavericks can pursue a true yet-to-be-identified head-knockin', cold-cockin', crowd-shockin', shot-blockin', 48-minute-clockin', rim-rockin, rebound-sockin' big man.

But this will be down the road apiece, by and by...

Murphy3 · 07-25-2002, 11:30 AM

sure they could use raef to do this.. they could use fin to do the same.. or nve...hell, maybe dirk

all of them are tradeable assets

but signing lewis doesn't make RAEF all of a sudden more expendable.. if anything, it makes players at the 2-3 spot more expendable.. (although i'm in no way advocating the trade of finley in this thread)

threadkilla · 07-25-2002, 11:49 AM

Wow, people sure do get in a huff quickly around here. I mostly was asking a few questions. My logic behind saying that stuff was that if we get a solid 3 in here, with Dirk playing the 4, maybe Raef could be traded for a real center. I am not saying Raef is not a good player and I am not saying we have to trade him. Most people would agree around here that a solid defensive center ala Olowokandi would help this team. Raef is going to have more value in that type of trade then Nick because of his age and also his size.

"There is no way the Mavericks need another scorer before thay need interior presence. "
Raef hasn't established himself as an interior presence yet. What team are YOU watching?

I admit the comment about Rashard being an inch shorter then Raef had no real meaning in the context of my argument.

I think Mavskiki is saying basically the same thing....

madape · 07-25-2002, 12:02 PM

What the hell is Raef LaFrenz doing being mentioned in this argument? Aside from Nash, Raef would be the player LEAST affected by aquiring Lewis. He'll be our starting center next year regardless of who is playing the 2 or 3.

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 12:03 PM

Totally logical, killa.

Murphy3 · 07-25-2002, 12:14 PM

the mavs bringing in lewis has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Raef would become expendable..absolutely nothing.

sure, the mavs could use raef as trade bait..but again, lewis has nothing to do with this.

Murphy3 · 07-25-2002, 12:15 PM

your statements make about as much sense as .... "well, we just acquired a #1 starter, hell..our center fielder is expendable now"

Just211 · 07-25-2002, 12:30 PM

if we get Lewis I think we'd be trough for now. Keep NVE and everyone else.

Raef / Esch / Brad
Dirk / Wang
Lewis / Najera / TAW
Fin / Griff / SEK
Nash / NVE / AJ

Looks good to me. Raef will become exactly what we need this year. I think that's why he was picking up so many fouls last season, cuz he was trying to be the defender/ rebounder we need. Give him time and he'll settle in and produce.

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 12:53 PM

Not that I'd ever put it in baseball terms, anyway, but...

Killa's right--not so much about Lewis being a better fit, but that Lewis is much more likely to be a better player at HIS position than LaF is at his; and that therefore, the MIX of players will probably need to be different.

And at least Killa gets the point that the Mavs don't need 5 scorers as their starters. That has NOT worked well historically for NBA teams--not for the Lakers, who had Rambis; not for the Celtics, who had Ainge or DJ; not for the Bulls who had either Cartwright or Longley; didn't work for Portland a couple of years ago, and didn't work for Philadelphia when they put together that All-Star lineup of Dr. J, George McGinnis, Doug Collins, Henry Bibby and Caldwell Jones.

You HAVE to have role players, glue players, utility players, bangers...call them what you will, but five scorers will not work. That's why Nájera is so valuable to the team.

So yeah...Killa's on the right track. This isn't so much about knocking Raef (although God knows I'm up for that) as it is to say that he will be the least-talented, least-suited titular at his position for the Mavericks, but will still be a very talented and usable player for another team who might be willing to part with a player who has the type of skills the Mavs need to really click.

This is gospel truth right here--with Lewis on the Mavs, Raef is that much more expendable/tradeable; not because anyone on the Mavs is going to replace him, but precisely because the Mavs won't have a starter-level talent capable of doing the dirty work. And once the Mavs sign LaF to the extremely-reasonable contract that they're offering him, he will be that much more marketable.

While I was cool to the Lewis possibility at first, I'm seeing that it has possible advantages.

threadkilla · 07-25-2002, 12:56 PM

If we sign Rashard Lewis and he becomes our starting 3. Dirk moves to the 4. You would be happy with Raef as our starting center? A 60 million dollar backup power forward?

Mavskiki you keep hitting enter right before I do.

Murphy3 · 07-25-2002, 12:57 PM

once again, mavskiki..i'm not sure where your head is.

if rashard signing with the mavs were to affect anyone becoming more available..it would be players that play the 2-3 spot.

sure, raef could be used as trade bait..but no moreso either way..whether or not they sign rashard.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:02 PM

If we get Lewis then NVE is the odd man out. He spends half his time playing backup point and half at shooting guard. He wouldn't be able to do that if Lewis was here because Finley wouldn't be swinging to small forward very often. NVE playing 25 minutes is an asset, NVE playing 12 minutes is a waste of an asset and potentially a liability (I can't imagine NVE not bitching about 12 minutes). All the Mavs would need would be a backup point - and that assumes that Avery can't handle the load (and I personally think he could).

Raef has already signed his contract, he won't be tradeable until around Dec 15th. Plus he's a much better center than Keon Clark who managed the same stats as Raef in the much weaker Eastern conference.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:04 PM

<< Raef is 6-11. Lewis is 6-11. >>

Lewis only weighs 215, he'd be overmatched at center in the Western conference. Raef at least weighs 240.

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 01:05 PM

<< sure they could use raef to do this.. they could use fin to do the same.. or nve...hell, maybe dirk

all of them are tradeable assets

but signing lewis doesn't make RAEF all of a sudden more expendable.. if anything, it makes players at the 2-3 spot more expendable.. (although i'm in no way advocating the trade of finley in this thread) >>

Oh great. Now Murph sees Dirk or NVE or LaF as being on the same level.

Gonna be a long off-season.

Learn to think big-picture, Murphess. It's not about position-to-position comparisons, it's about overall mix.

LaF blows, so LaF goes.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:07 PM

<< but that Lewis is much more likely to be a better player at HIS position than LaF is at his; >>

Raef is a top ten center, I don't think Lewis is a top 10 small forward. Plus the center position is a lot harder to fill than a small forward.

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 01:08 PM

MFFL,

Being a Top 10 center in the NBA today, with the exception of Shaq, is like being the valedictorian of your special ed class.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:10 PM

So you make do with the best center you can get. Anyone with a better center than Raef is NOT going to trade him, especially since they are so rare.

MavKikiNYC · 07-25-2002, 01:16 PM

But if a big player with more complementary skills to the Mavs' other titulares comes along, they nab him, dangling LaF for bait.

Nellie · 07-25-2002, 01:19 PM

I think this argument is rather titular myself.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:27 PM

>IF< the Mavs get a better CENTER than Raef then he's expendable. Otherwise it's back to depending on Bradley and Eschmeyer. I don't want the Mavs to send Dirk in as center on a regular basis - let a less valuable player take that beating.

If the Mavs can acquire Kandi, then Raef is expendable. Otherwise his spot on the team is as secure as Nash's.

miles berg · 07-25-2002, 01:29 PM

You have to understand our offense. We need a center like Raef LaFrentz because he stretches the defense by bringing the opposing big man out. With Rashard at the 3, Dirk at 4, Nash at 1, and Fin at 2 we would have four guys that can shoot the 3 and get to the hole to either create for another or lay it in/dunk it.

I honestly think that getting Rashard makes NVE tradeable. I would like to see Kurt Thomas but I would rather see if Boston would resign Strickland and trade us Battie and Strick for NVE. That would be a better scenario for me because Erick is a great defending PG and Battie is another shot blocker deluxe.

DTL · 07-25-2002, 01:31 PM

wouldn't landing Rashard make...Fin expendable as trade bait for a big man?

(sorry, MFF. just an idea....)

madape · 07-25-2002, 01:34 PM

Raef's game is VERY complementary to those of his teammates. Not many centers in the NBA can hit from the outside, rebound, AND block shots. Raef's ouside game opens up the lanes for cutters and gives Dirk more chances to post up smaller players. He really is a matchup nightmare on offense.

On defense, he close to being ideal also. Ask yourself how the Mavs got eliminated from the playoffs last year. It wasn't because of Vlade freakin' Divac. It was because Bobby Jackson and Mike Bibby torched teh Mavs guards. A good shotblocker should be able to shut down guard penetration and allow us to play tighter around the perimeter. We know that Raef is a very good shotblocker. I think that once he gets comfortable, learns his role and is able to stay out of foul trouble, our team defense will improve greatly.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:35 PM

<< wouldn't landing Rashard make...Fin expendable as trade bait for a big man? >>

Yes - unfortunately. But Finley is not going to get you a better big man than NVE. NVE plays a position with a higher priority to it. It's relatively easy to acquire a shooting guard or a small forward. Jim Jackson was signed for the vet mininum last year.

MFFL · 07-25-2002, 01:41 PM

<< Raef's game is VERY complementary to those of his teammates. Not many centers in the NBA can hit from the outside, rebound, AND block shots. Raef's ouside game opens up the lanes for cutters and gives Dirk more chances to post up smaller players. He really is a matchup nightmare on offense.

On defense, he close to being ideal also. Ask yourself how the Mavs got eliminated from the playoffs last year. It wasn't because of Vlade freakin' Divac. It was because Bobby Jackson and Mike Bibby torched teh Mavs guards. A good shotblocker should be able to shut down guard penetration and allow us to play tighter around the perimeter. We know that Raef is a very good shotblocker. I think that once he gets comfortable, learns his role and is able to stay out of foul trouble, our team defense will improve greatly. >>

I was looking over the list of NBA centers a couple of days ago and I couldn't think of a significant upgrade over Raef (other than Shaq) for the way the Mavs play offense and defense. Bradley is Nellie's ideal defensive center and Wang is Nellie's ideal offensive center. Raef is as good as either of them in their respective specialities.

Raef would be expendable if the Mavs acquired Kandi because that would mean that the Mavs would have fundamentally changed their offensive and defensive strategies.