personally.. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 02-17-2002, 08:32 PM

i think the mavs explore trading finley..allowing dirk to take control of the mavs team. he is quite simply the best player on the team and is more effective with finley not in the lineup...
i just don't think the mavs are as smooth offensively with fin in the game....too many weapons maybe

and they are better defensively without him in the game...now, let's explore what we can get for him and if it's realistic to trade him this season

Bayliss · 02-17-2002, 08:45 PM

And I'm hoping it's Rasheed Wallace.

Murphy3 · 02-17-2002, 08:51 PM

bayliss, we'll have to get into some serious discussions on this tomorrow..however, i do think a change would be beneficial to the mavs..
finley is a class guy and a good player..however, a player like wallace would be an upgrade for the mavs at a position of great need..and the mavs would still have plenty of outside offense

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 09:00 PM

I've heard that Portland is really intent on moving Pippen in any package. We would have to take at least one of their swing men for them to thin down the herd.

Murphy3 · 02-17-2002, 09:04 PM

i wouldn't mind having pippen..however, i dont' think he addresses the mavs main need...
i know the mavs aren't going to get anyone to stop shaq..but the mavs do need a defensive force on the inside...and one that can put some points on the board as well

Bayliss · 02-17-2002, 09:04 PM

And Rasheed has an attitude problem , no question about that BUT

He is long, athletic, can shoot from outside, can body up good power forwards, rebounds pretty well, passes very well, and can be just plain nasty on the interior (when motivated).

Hales233 · 02-17-2002, 10:12 PM

Finley IS the Heart and Soul of the Dallas Mavericks.

Murphy3 · 02-17-2002, 10:14 PM

Hales, in all due respect, I completely disagree. Dirk and nash have more to do with the success of this team and as long as they are playing together at this level, they will be the heart and soul of the team...yes, finley is a part of it....but he is by far the most expendable of the three

LonestarROB · 02-17-2002, 10:19 PM

I have to agree with Murph here. As Dirk and Nash go, so goes the Mavs.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 10:20 PM

The only problem that >MIGHT< happen with a Wallace trade is attitude. Talent wise this trade would be a no-brainer. Unfortunately one of the people who could help keep Wallace on an even keel would be Finley and he would be gone. Wallace's personality might be disruptive to Dirk.

Murphy3 · 02-17-2002, 10:28 PM

i know..it's really hard for fin fans to accept..i went through a similar thing with dale murphy..except finley has only dropped to probably the third most important player on the team....whereas murphy went from an MVP candidate to an after thought almost immediately.

Dirk and nash are the new heart and soul of the team....I believe that both of them will have amazing careers and will be among the elite at their position for years to come... I simply don't see finley as quite in the same level. Yes, he's a very good player..i'm taking nothing away from the two-time all-star

and i agree MFFL, the only thing that would make me hesitate about trading fin for wallace is his attitude.....
but, i disagree completely with thinking that wallace might disrupt dirk....
nothing will disrupt him and his approach to the game..neither him or nash...And i think a change of scenery to a team with tremendous heart, such as the mavs, would be wonderful for Wallace

after everything i've learned and read about dirk and nash..i don't think there's a player in the league that you could trade for that would be disruptive to their games...nor anyone else on this mavs team

Hales233 · 02-17-2002, 10:40 PM

Michael Finley is expendable?!?! Are you guys listening to yourselves??

This guy has been here from the start, Day 1, and has never quit, when most people gave up on the Mavs, and now you want to trade him just because he's been injured and isn't at 100% yet??

Talk about being fairweather fans...it's like the old saying, don't forget where you came from...obviously a lot of you have forgot who got you here in the first place...and it's pretty sad IMO.

FINDOGG4LIFE

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 10:46 PM

Finley is my favorite player on the Mavs. Period. But I'm a Mavs fan first and a Finley fan second. If waving goodbye to Finley helps the Mavs win a championship, well then all I can say is that I will miss him.

Hales233 · 02-17-2002, 10:49 PM

i'm surprised at you of all people MFFL to make a statement like that...you must be in agreement with the people who would cheer for this team even if they cheated their way to victory with arrogants SOB's like Showbe and Shaq...

Where is the loyalty dogg?

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 10:55 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure if Stockton and Malone had played HERE all of those years, everyone on this board would be fans of them and their cheating ways. There were a lot of people who thought Jordan was overrated until he started winning championships - it's all in the perception.

Bayliss · 02-17-2002, 11:05 PM

Let me ask you this Hales, which would you rather have:

a) Mavs keeping Finley and staying at the level in which they are at... (a good team but lack inside toughness, defense, and rebounding.)

b) Mavs trading Finley for a good inside Power Forward that would help us dethrone the Lakers by giving us everything we lack.

Hales233 · 02-17-2002, 11:12 PM

Bayliss,

Let's get one thing straight: This topic is basically BS, because 'Sheed is not going ANYWHERE...He is the cornerstone of that franchise, however unsteady he may be at times.

In regards to your question, we can keep Finley and improve defensively by trading for Oakley (maybe 1 player and a 1st rounder) or pick him up off waivers...there's no need to get rid of Finley when you can keep him AND acquire some toughness inside.

MavsFanFinley · 02-17-2002, 11:14 PM

What I don't understand is how some say what an average player Finley is, point out all his flaws, etc...but think he can land us that power forward or center that we need.

I think Murph is the only one that has said you just don't get big men up front for a dime a dozen shooting guards like Finley. Which is true.

I wonder why we couldn't get the big man up front without trading Finley. Since he seems to be the most expendable in some people's eyes, yet when you read the arguments, wouldn't he have the least value?

Hales233 · 02-17-2002, 11:16 PM

I wonder why we couldn't get the big man up front without trading Finley. Since he seems to be the most expendable in some people's eyes, yet when you read the arguments, wouldn't he have the least value?

Excellent point MFF... that's a great angle, i never even thought of it in that sense.

Bayliss · 02-17-2002, 11:20 PM

Because a shooting guard/small forward is not necessarily what **we** need. Other teams may. Hence value for value.

MavsFanFinley · 02-17-2002, 11:23 PM

Well, what teams need a sg/sf that are willing to give up a big man?

Portland seems to have their fill at that position as well.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 11:24 PM

And sometimes other teams are dumb. Remember it wasn't too long ago that the Mavs traded an unprotected #1 (that wound up as a lottery pick) to Boston for a BWS. Phoenix GAVE AWAY Robinson. Orlando GAVE AWAY Bo Outlaw. It happens.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 11:26 PM

<< Well, what teams need a sg/sf that are willing to give up a big man?

Portland seems to have their fill at that position as well. >>

Nobody fits the bill exactly, but Portland has made several questionable moves. But Portland also NEVER makes mid-season trades...

Hales233 · 02-17-2002, 11:28 PM

it's not gonna happen with 'Sheed...period.

of all the teams in the nba, portland has way too many good SG/SF types already in Bonzi, D. Anderson, and Patterson, they don't need/want Finley, and they surely wouldn't give up 'Sheed for him.

bayliss explain your last post better it doesnt make sense to me.

MavsFanFinley · 02-17-2002, 11:29 PM

Another problem with trading Finley is his BYC1 status. I thought he would be hard to trade unless it was a bigger package? Like Finley and ?? for Rasheed or something like that.

Bayliss · 02-17-2002, 11:33 PM

Well let's see:

Team A needs a shooting guard/small forward because it has several big man and not enough minutes.

Team B has several 2's and 3's but not enough big men.

So they swap... (with other kickers such as cash, "crap thrown in a la Bogues", and picks)

See. Both teams get what they want.

Now will the Mavs be able to pull it off. I **hope** so. Is it likely? Nope.

But **if** you can get a good young power forward. You do so with no questions asked.

MavsFanFinley · 02-17-2002, 11:45 PM

<< But **if** you can get a good young power forward. You do so with no questions asked. >>

I disagree with this, at least where Fin is concerned. I understand it is a business, but Fin deserves a little more loyalty than to be shipped to just any team that has some big men they'd like to unlaod.

He signed on the dotted line believing he'd retire a Mav and whatever else Cuban told him, he didn't sign a 7 year contract to be shipped on to some team that won't make the playoffs, ala Golden State or Indiana or Miami.

MFFL · 02-18-2002, 12:09 AM

The reason that Finley didn't receive a no-trade clause is because both he and the Mavs understand that things change. Would Finley be happy with a trade? No. Would the Mavs be happy trading him? No, but if they got a player of equal talent who happens to play PF/C then the deal is done. But realistically Finley isn't going anywhere. He is a coach's dream in regards to dedication and class. And no team with a PF/C of equal talent is going to be stupid enough to deal that player. Talented big men are too rare.

seelenjaeger · 02-18-2002, 03:13 PM

Two words (I dont like them too much, but might be within reason)

Fortson + Hughes?

threadkilla · 02-18-2002, 06:19 PM

One thing that could boost Finley's value could be his leadership and stability. Teams like the Bulls, Atlanta, or even possibly Portland could use a steady guy like Finley as a veteran in a leadership role.

Murphy3 · 02-18-2002, 07:25 PM

well, i hate to argue but ...it's hard to believe that fin is the cornerstone of this franchise...
how could he be?..maybe the third best offensive player and a mediocre defensive player?..with dirk and nash being younger..dirk considerably younger.
and to be honest, if the mavs were to subtract any of the big three out of the offense, taking fin out would have the least impact.

fin's a good player..and no, he probably won't be traded..but we're talking possibility...even if it ever so slight.

i would pull the trigger and i would completely expect the trade to work in the mavs favor, ....with very little worries

TheKid · 02-19-2002, 09:56 AM

You know what you all truly just kill me. You keep talking about this crap about being Mavs fans first, etc. etc., however Fin has embodied the Dallas Mavericks over the past three years and now he should enjoy the success since he was the one here playing EVERY GAME until this year. That kills me that you all want to get rid of him. ALSO, Finley's production has dropped due to the emergence of DIRK AND NASH, just a question to you all, you're talking about trading for Rasheed ANOTHER SCORER right? Rasheed is one of the LEADING scorers on his team, use to getting his shots when he wants to, now you're saying trade for a HEAD CASE to come in here and accept being a third scorer??? PLEASE GET REAL!!! Now to the people who were saying trade for a Ben Wallace or a Dale Davis, that makes much more sense than trading for a Rasheed Wallace.

In any case to just say, trading Finley also is going to get you a championship is wrong also. Right now this team clearly just runs and outscores everyone, we DON'T play defense but we're talking about trading for someone who is NOT a defensive minded person. You all kill me, truly you do... I hope they do trade Finley actually, and when the Mavs get just as far as they did last year, I'm going to ask the question, "how great was that trade." Then when they go an entire season and bring someone else in here and the player starts complaining about not getting shots, I'm going to laugh because that's a problem FIN HAS NOT bitched about yet, class act one of the more classiest people and a GREAT talent to boot and you all want to trade him...

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 01:16 PM

thekid...yes, i want to trade finley...but only if it means getting something very attractive in return...that's all.... no one is saying "trade finley, no matter what you can get for him"...we're simply saying "see what's available, and if it's attractive..look into it. If it will help the team, pull the trigger"

i'm sorry that you have a problem with that

MFFL · 02-19-2002, 01:24 PM

It's not a Finley thing - it's a Maverick thing. I would trade Nash if we got value + for him. And the same thing goes for Dirk.

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 01:27 PM

so would I..
However, I think Dirk is close to and will be at a level where he is virtually untradeable....

I simply think finley is the most expendable of the big three....that the team could function at a high level without him....so, therefore, if you could trade him for someone that will help the team in the middle, it is something that should be looked into.

Murphy3 · 02-19-2002, 01:28 PM

I remember last May when i said that this mavs team is a playoff team without finley..how much hell i took.
Well, I'm am certain of it now (better with him, though).. however, ...i just thought i'd remind everyone of this

TheKid · 02-19-2002, 03:29 PM

Well to be honest Murph, to hear YOU say it doesn't really bother me at all because as you said it's been what you've said all along. (Although I disagreed with it then and still disagree with it now) However there seems to be this big bandwagon of people ready to get rid of the guy. I keep hearing stuff like trade him for something of value but to hear someone say trade him for Jalen Rose (a step down or same player at best) or some nonsense like that is just downright crazy. I've heard people say if McDysse could work out, I can accept that but it won't happen. I've heard people say Wallace, that doesn't bother me but I think it would be a bad trade for EVERYONE not to mention it won't happen or Wallace or Davis. However to mention ANY other two guard that a team is willing to part with it won't happen. Someone even said we should have done the trade to get Mercer, Artest and Miller for Finley. Miller doesn't IMPROVE your front line that much and Mercer nor Artest are consistent as Fin is or durable as he is. That's the type of stuff I'm referring too, that's hogwash if you ask me.

No I don't think ANYTHING is wrong with listening to what anyone has to say, it would be stupid NOT to listen even not to listen to what someone wants to offer for Dirk. That would be doing the fans a disservice and I don't have a problem with that. As I said before, to break up the three now is not a bright thing in my opinion. It doesn't matter who is more expendable or not, the three have built a cohesion that is very good. Look at the Bucks, they have the highest scoring big three and they can't even work together, they've taken a step backwards. Take one of them out the picture, they're starting over again we would too.

Murphy3 · 02-20-2002, 02:19 AM

well, the kid..i'm not like alot of people..i would only trade finley for something very valuable in return.
i woulnd't have traded him for rose...

now, about breaking up the three?..well, i don't have a huge problem..but that obviously depends upon who the mavs get in return...

for dirk to reach his next level...it might require fin being gone and dirk being allowed to take the next step

however, i would ONLY trade finley for a player that would obviously make the team better..because fin does bring certain intangibles to the table

TheKid · 02-20-2002, 09:21 AM

See that's where I think the problem comes Murph. Fin has this Pippen aura about himself. Accepting his abilities and letting everything else fall into place. Meaning, you're saying trade Fin for someone because Dirk will be able to emerge as the true number one threat is baffling to me.

1. He's already established himself as the #1 threat. As I said in another post, someone needs to get the memo to Nash, who seems to be the only person who thinks otherwise at times.

2. Trading Fin for a player of his caliber means trading him for one of the top 8 shooting guards in the league or top front line people in the league. With the exception of two power forwards (Dale Davis and Ben Wallace) what other PF or swingman would come in and accept to be second or third option?

I can't see many players coming in and saying ok I'm going to take fewer shots than I'm already taking? I really don't see many players doing that and NOT having some problem with it after a period of time. At first everyone would come in and be happy, the Mavericks are winning and no one would have a fit but in time that person would be pissed. So why break up something that has NOT been a problem for you now and has been fairly successful to this point?

Murphy3 · 02-20-2002, 12:36 PM

i fail to see any type of connection between pippen and finley in the manner in which you're speaking...
comparing finley to where pippen was as a player one time in his career doesn't tread much water with me

another thing..you can be a second or even a third option in dallas and take as many shots as some teams' first option.

wallace takes around 16 in portland...as the #1 option...in dallas, i wouldn't see any problem with him getting the same number of shots..

the reason i would make a move would be to make the team better. that's all.
is it in the mavs best interest to keep the big three in tact? maybe. is it in the mavs best interest to see what teams would offer for fin? of course.
is it in the mavs best interest to get poor value for fin? no
is it in the mavs best interest to pull the trigger with a team that is looking to shake some things up..maybe get more value for finley than what the market would actually normally command? of course

will it happen? probably not. will i be upset if it doesn't happen? no
will i be upset if the mavs don't look to see what's out there? yes