Who Is That Man?

[XERXES]

I'm sitting here pondering (the mysteries of the universe and) what exactly the Mavs need.

1) Obviously, a competent 5 (preferably 6'10" or taller)

2) He needs to be a defensive threat...not just an offensive-minded center who plays lackluster D. (Sorry Big Z fans)

3) He needs to come relatively cheap.

What characteristics am I forgetting? Who is this man? Tell me. I'm thinking about putting an ad in the personals:

"SWM non smoker looking for intimidating defender 6'10" or taller who doesn't need many shots. Available cheap."

[seelenjaeger]

Etan Thomas, though he is a bit small (6´9)

Possibly Ty Chandler, but he doesn´t fit the "cheap" coloumn.

Oh, and from the "not-too-high-profile" but damn expensive layer: Jamaal Magloire.

[Misfit Mav]

I wish I knew!

Here are all the relatively competant, journeyman centers I could think of that might be available:

Greg Ostertag
Marcus Camby
Mehmet Okur
Dale Davis
Brendan Haywood
Dan Gadzuric
Jahidi White
Dikembe Mutombo
Lorenzen Wright
Stromile Swift
Jake Tsakilidas
Adonal Foyle
Kelvin Cato
Tyson Chandler

[XERXES]

When I say "needs to come relatively cheap" I mean that in the context of what we have to give up to get them - not how much money they make. I just thought I might clarify that.

[MightyToine]

Would love to get Etan Thomas here as well as Foyle.

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: XERXES
When I say "needs to come relatively cheap" I mean that in the context of what we have to give up to get them - not how much money they make. I just thought I might clarify that.

I think we are going to have some problems trading for good journeyman talent because of the make-up of our roster. We pretty much only have maximum or minimum contracts. We have 5 huge contracts for the big five, and several tiny contracts for guys like Best, Howard, and Daniels. The mid-sized contracts we have, like Fortson's and Delk's, are not very desirable.

However, we will have the mid-level exception this summer, and there will be a few useful guys available for that price. If we need help this year? The best I could come up with is maybe Danny Fortson for Vitaly Potepenko or Calvin Booth. Seattle might want Danny to rebound for them at the 4, and they have 3 centers.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: Misfit Mav

I think we are going to have some problems trading for good journeyman talent because of the make-up of our roster. We pretty much only have maximum or minimum contracts. We have 5 huge contracts for the big five, and several tiny contracts for guys like Best, Howard, and Daniels. The mid-sized contracts we have, like Fortson's and Delk's, are not very desirable.

However, we will have the mid-level exception this summer, and there will be a few useful guys available for that price. If we need help this year? The best I could come up with is maybe Danny Fortson for Vitaly Potepenko or Calvin Booth. Seattle might want Danny to rebound for them at the 4, and they have 3 centers.

Advice from someone who has witnessed Vitaly play for the Celtics :

DON'T SIGN HIM! He has STONE HANDS. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]


Get BOOTH back!

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: MightyToine


Advice from someone who has witnessed Vitaly play for the Celtics :

DON'T SIGN HIM! He has STONE HANDS. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]


Get BOOTH back!

I've never really seen him play so I'll definitely take your word for it. The only thing I know about him is that he's BIG.

Irrelevant Trivia Question: In the 1996 draft, Potapenko was taken 12th by Cleveland. What players were take in the three spots after him?

[Poindexter Einstein]

Names to bat around ......

Names to keep in mind this summer, possibles for the MLE. List comes from the research people at dallasbasketball.com.

Chris Andersen, Denver
Zeljko Rebraca, Detroit
Kurt Thomas, Knicks
Vlade Divacs, Sac
Greg Ostertag, Utah

The only one on that list who could develop into a LONG-term answer would be Andersen. Lots of potential, and young. But also he has the least experience.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Here is the DB.com article - edited to only include relevant parts

Supersize?
A Who's Who Of Potential Centers
David Lord and Mike Fisher -- DallasBasketball.com - Posted: 1/6/04

By David Lord and Mike Fisher -- DallasBasketball.com

The Mavs are pining for Shawn Bradley, scanning the waiver wire for the unemployed, and barely struggling to survive inside.
Time for a Who’s Who of potential interior aid.

Keep in mind a few things: The Mavs, crushed by the Bucks’ otherwise pedestrian interior attack in Friday’s loss and heavily reliant on the 31 points from pseudo-center Dirk Nowitzki in Saturday’s victory at home against Minnesota, are starting to whisper publicly about their concerns at center. The problems are deep enough that Nellie is moaning about the injury absence of Bradley, putting Shawn in the unlikely position of potential savior. The problems are deep enough that Donnie Nelson concedes the club might bring in a body off the street, with room being made available due to Eduardo Najera’s knee-related move to the injury list. The problems are deep enough that we’re willing to contemplate almost anyone. And the problems are deep enough that we’re thinking about now, about up to the trade deadline, about next summer. Whenever. To wit:

KURT THOMAS. 6-9, NY. Probable FA (opt out) at season's end. After the season, the Mavs will be limited to FAs available for the Mid-Level Exception (MLE) of about $5.5M, or less. If Thomas isn't acquired via a trade, might he be available within the Mavs' limits this summer?

ZELJKO REBRACA. 6-11, DET. FA at season's end. For Mavs fans, this may be an unheralded name to keep an eye on after the season. He is big and has some skills - he was a dominant center in Europe and has floated back and forth. He is not a kid, turning 32 before year's end, and the Pistons' other cap priorities make them unlikely to even try to re-sign him. He has been playing 10-15 minutes/game on the center-rich Pistons. Price this summer should be affordable if Mavs want to take a run at him (MLE or less).

CHRIS ANDERSON. 6-10, DEN. FA at season's end. Young active leaper who has come from nowhere this year. Averaging 4.3 RBG and 2.3 BPG in only 15 min/gm. Denver has loads of cap room if they want to keep him, but with him only getting 15 MPG, can they justify offering him more than the MLE to keep him from getting offers? This might be another to keep an eye on.

GREG OSTERTAG. 7-2, UTAH. FA at season's end. Big, bulky, and quite effective at times, but has also frustrated the Utah coaches over the years. Will a rebuilding Utah team let him walk? His 03-04 contract is for $8.66M - will he be available to the Mavs for the MLE of 5.5 or less? Greg will bang, and he is from around these parts. But he has the potential to be another Shawn Bradley; you know, one of those, ‘Gosh, if I was 7-feet-tall, I’d. …’’ guys.

ADONAL FOYLE. 6-10, GS. FA at season's end. No offensive skills whatsoever, so if he was on the Mavs roster he undoubtedly wouldn't get on the floor anyhow. Nah.

VLADE DIVAC. 7-1, SAC. FA at season's end. He is 35 going on 50, and his legs and skills have diminished the last couple of years. But he is still more effective than any C the Mavs have. With Brad Miller and a healthy Chris Webber up front, would Sacramento let him go? He earned about 12M this year, and if the Kings bid on his services for more then the MLE, they will be in Luxury Tax territory - which they seem to be trying to avoid. And if the Kings pass on bringing him back, would he be willing to come to Dallas for a couple years at the MLE and ply his trade against the Kings rather than with them?

POSTSCRIPT: With so many possibilities available to the Mavs this summer, the team's plan could be to play out the year "as is." This would also allow plenty of time to evaluate whom they want to keep, if trades are in order at some point.

[OutletPass]

I know that Ostertag would love to come home and play here...and, if we don't acquire a better 5 than Tag, I wouldn't mind seeing him paired up with Shawn...He's also a quality person from a quality family...

I'd still love a real QUALITY shotblocking YOUNG 5....who can post up ...but who doesn't....

I like the Birdman's hops...but not much else...
Rebraca is still unknown...and I haven't seen Detroit much
Vlade bites.
KT would be fair but undersized in the West.

So, off that list, TAG would be my pick. No one, in trade, is going to give up a quality YOUNG 5 unless we overpaid GREATLY. And I don't know that I want to do that right now...

(I still don't understand the Brad Miller trade....Indy got back so little for him...and SUPPOSEDLY...Nash was the "deal breaker" in our efforts...there's something about it that still doesn't make much sense to me...we could have given more than Indy got WITHOUT including Nash....oh, well...)

[Poindexter Einstein]

OP ....who is the Birdman? (and why the name?)

Re Miller - reports say he wanted a 7 year deal and Dallas only wanted to go 6. Don't forget, he had SOME value, but he was seen as an Eastern Conference type, and not estimated to do provide more than Raef had done.

Obviously he has done much better this year than anyone expected. That perception has been built by a supremely soft schedule for Sacto out of the gate, so likely he is slightly OVER-rated now. Maybe he is indeed going to be a great long-term addition for Sac, but it is kinda early to put that in stone.

[Bayliss]

I want Ostertag as well. He gives you everything Bradley does, only he has more girth to defend the bigger bodies.

I would really like Dan Gadzuric. That boy hustles on every play.

[grndmstr_c]

Ditto on both of those, Bayliss. I don't think there's any way we could trade any of our spare parts for Gadzuric, but we sure should try. If we don't swing a trade, Tag should be our first priority in the offseason.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Gadzuric is an interesting name - unsure whether his contract expires this summer or next. I have seen reports that his final year is 04-05 on an original 3-yr deal.

[OutletPass]

Poindexter:

The "Birdman" is just MadApe's name for Anderson...I can't take credit for that...

Mad posts a funny picture of Anderson....if you saw it...it would explain the nickname.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Andersen looked good against the Mavs (who doesnt? lol) ...but his numbers are similar all season - good averages on RBG and BPG, plus he is young and tall and can jump. His O needs work, of course. Whats not to like?

[OutletPass]

Poindexter:

You make a halfway good point about miller...BUT...I don't see any difference between a 6 and 7 year contract...really...and MANY of us here thought that he would have been a fabulous addition here...

Many of us us thought that he was FAR superior to either Kandi or Rasho...

Maybe that "He's no better than Raef" opinion was predominant on LMF or somewhere else, but I don't really think it was here.

BTW, welcome...I've been reading your posts...and I'm glad that you're here.

[Nash13]

Rebraca is still unknown...and I haven't seen Detroit much

You're not missing much. He hardly gets any burn for Detroit, and that says a lot when you're a big man that can't get minutes on that team.

[Poindexter Einstein]

OP - thanks for the welcome ...I havent been around long, didnt read the posts here in the summer (or til recently, actually)... I wasnt on ANY of the Mavs boards anywhere, my opinion is my own.

re the 6-vs-7, that was the report - as to the distinction, that is one the Mavs made, for whatever reason, if the reports are accurate .... I saw Miller as a SLIGHT jump over Nesto and Kandi, but nothing like this. My opinion cetainly isnt alone: if anyone in the NBA thought he could play like he has in Sac, he would be in Indy still, they would never have let him walk.

[madape]

The "Birdman" is just MadApe's name for Anderson...I can't take credit for that....

I didn't make up the nickname. It is a well documented phenomenon.

As for a backup to Shawn Bradley, I reccommend Greg Ostertag. Although we shouldn't overlook the guy we already have. Shawn is exactly what people ask for... a tall shotblocker who exels on the defensive end, and who isn't a complete non-entity on the offensive end. It is just as important to work on getting him 25 minutes a game as it is on finding his complement in the center rotation.

[Poindexter Einstein]

NASH13 ...what did you mean by "that says a lot when you're a big man that can't get minutes on that team. "

I have to disagree, Detroit is LOADED with big men, they have more than they can play.

Okur is their emerging C, an emerging talent, and is young. Wallace is the PF and he is an all-star. Then you have Campbell who is a big 7-0 vet. Milicic was the 2nd overall pick and you want to try to get him some minutes to develop, when you can. Corliss Williamson also provides size.

They have talent at the 3, so no room to steal minutes from there and give it to a 4/5 type.

IMO, the fact that he isnt get much PT doesnt reflect on his ability. (Note - there are also some health issues - but the glut of Bigs in Motown is what keeps his PT limited, I believe.)

[OutletPass]

Poindexter...you're right about that...I don't think that ANYONE thought that Miller would play as well as he's playing...and he MAY NOT play that well in the 2nd half when Sacto goes on the road...and against better teams than they have in the first half...

But last summer....Kandi was viewed as a lazy, oft-injured head case; Rasho was looked at a "Raef or less than Raef"....Miller was looked at as a guy who would ACTUALLY PLAY HARD.

I know this is a digression BUT:

When Raef was with Denver, I saw him play here against the Mavs...and I thought..."We need to get that guy". And, maybe, for that reason I tried to be more patient than the average member here...even after his injury kept him out of our 14-0 run...and he struggled terribly after he returned.

Unfortunately, it became pretty apparent that his REAL problems weren't physical...so much of what seems to be askew with Raef are in his head...I guess what I'm saying is this...most of us here thought Raef had a lot of physical talent and a $1 head...so, if we're going to compare Raef to others...we can't just do that on physical talent...

For many us Kandi was just the same thing...Rasho seemed less physically talented...and Miller seemed to be AS physically talented as raef, if not more, and without the $1head...and most of that has played out.

Kandi is still injured...and he's still a problem waiting to happen.
Rasho is just sort playing at a so-so level. No big thing one way or the other.
Miller is doing very well...and yes, probably a bit more than most of us expected.

But, if you'd done a poll of this board last summer, and put those 4 guys in it...Miller would have gotten MOST of those votes...there are old threads like that around...I'll see if I can find them in the next couple of days...

[OutletPass]

Sorry MAD...I was just trying to improve your white street cred...

Glad that you brought up Okur, poindexter. I remeber seeing him in the preseason a year ago vs. the Mavs...and I thought he was really interesting...

Funny thing: Back then, he was listed on Detroit's roster as a PG/PF...I did some research and found that he'sd played some 1...the only other guy that I've ever found that was listed the same way was malik Allen in Miami...

But I suppose that the Mavs could list Antoine the same way if they wanted to.

Okur is a very interesting guy to me.

[Poindexter Einstein]

OP ...thanks for the outline. But more info really isnt needed - Miller is in Sac for the duration, so it is a useless discussion at this point to try to examine past points of view. Thanks anyhow.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Okur is a FA this summer, but the Mavs have no shot at him. He will sign for big bucks, probably with Detroit. - and because of technical reasons, Detroit wont offer him elsewhere via sign-and-trade.

[MightyToine]

most of us here thought Raef had a lot of physical talent and a $1 head...

So how much is Walker's fat head worth? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Nash13]

Poin, i'll break it down for you.

Brown has known the habits of this team for many years, that's a big part of the reason why Darko gets no time. Every player that's been playing for Detroit is getting the same roles as they normally did with their last coach, except Zarko. He's been with that team for 3 seasons. Although he have an injury problem, an irregular heart beat i believe, but he wasn't much effect before that. It lessens his value to me when he's fighting with Elden Cambell for minutes.

Like OP, i've been reading your posts. All i have to say is I wish all new members were like you.

[Poindexter Einstein]

NASH - I think the issues are very different than talent.

Health has been part of it. But there are other issues in that Detroit big man history. (Brown has been an outsider, this is his first year there.)

Okur didnt start to emerge until last year in the playoffs. Then Rebraca developed health problems. And they drafted Milicic, who is very raw. So with so much uncertainty, they HAD TO get a vet, which is why they got Campbell.

Also, Detroit had to make a choice for next year as to whom to try to re-sign, Rebraca or Okur. Okur was the obvious choice, so they already KNOW they wont have Rebraca there next year. (It is due to technical cap issues, that makes them choose one or the other.)

So when they have looked at PT this year, they have a guy who has some ability, but also has been working through health issues. He wont be on the roster next year. So they do the logical thing, and dont worry about playing him. With a whole slew of Bigs, including two guys added since last year, they instead play the guys that will be around for the longer term.

[OutletPass]

Poindexter: ...thanks for the outline back to Nash13. But more info really isnt needed - Okur is in Det for the duration, so it is a useless discussion at this point to try to examine past points of view and other teams who have players that won't be available. Thanks anyhow.

[Poindexter Einstein]

OP - if that was to me, I was discussing Rebraca, and why he isnt playing as much in Det this year. I brought up Okur, only because the emergence of Okur has been one of the factors that has reduced PT for Rebraca.

Rebraca is VERY relevant because he WILL be available this summer. He is big and experienced. The question will soon become "is he the best option to pursue with the MLE?"

[V]

OP is on a rampage tonight [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[OutletPass]

He didn't recognize his EXACTS words too well did he, V ?

Oh well...I just love peole who claim to have "2 inside sources"....and haven't ever donated to DJ and the board...

(your $100 is looking REAL GOOD to DJ, btw...old friend...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img])

[LRB]

2 years in a row we have gotten played in the FA market. 2 years in a row we've missed out on players that would have been a very good fit following some halfthoughtout fantasy FA who probably wouldn't have been as good as the one we should have been pursuing. We could have had Karl Malone if we'd pursued him instead of Alonzo "Give me a kidney" Mourning.

We should not make that mistake again. Ostertag is who we should target from day 1. We have an inside tract over other teams because Tag wants to come home. He would meet our needs and fit in well here. He has lots of playoff experience and has even been to the Finals a couple of times. Let's don't blow this chance. Sure if Tag doesn't sign with us in a reasonable amount of time, then we need to pursue plan B. But we shouldn't blow our best shot chasing some pipe dream.

[Poindexter Einstein]

OP - I recognized the fact that you had used some of my words, jumbled together. It just didnt really correspond to what I was saying though.

If you were trying to take a jab for some reason, I dont particularly care to have that kind of conversation. I am just here to talk hoops a bit.

Let me back things up a bit, too. From your tone, and reading back to try to figure out where it came from - I think you misunderstood my intent, of something I said, and perhaps took offense.

You gave me an outline of various opinions about Miller, then added, "But, if you'd done a poll of this board last summer, and put those 4 guys in it...Miller would have gotten MOST of those votes...there are old threads like that around...I'll see if I can find them in the next couple of days..."

I replied, "thanks for the outline. But more info really isnt needed" ....

I wasnt trying to say that your opinion wasnt important. I was just telling you that for you to go to all the work of digging out old threads, I accepted what you said and you didnt need to bother going and finding old posts for me.

Perhaps you thought I was dissing your opinion, for outlining what you thought of Miller. If thats what you thought from what I said, my apologies for not being clear. I was just trying to save you the trouble of researching old conversations, especially when Miller is long gone by now.

As to my use of the word "sources" in another thread, I dont know how to reply to that. I am not a Mavs insider, nor do I have some sort of pipeline to them, but I have lived in Dallas for a lifetime and do know a couple of people who in various basketball-related contexts have access to Cuban and those close to him. I talk to them here and there, on a very sporadic and casual basis, just like any other fan would do I suspect. When I offered some information about a "proposed trade" idea, I was asked where I got my info, and I answered as honestly as I could. I am not a big-shot, and dont get all kinds of info. Someone asked me where the info I was sharing came from, otherwise i wouldnt have ever mentioned it. If you dont like that, thats fine - you expressed your displeasure and skepticism, and I wasnt here to prove a point anyhow, so I let it drop. But I would hope you would let things you dont like in ONE thread to stay there where they can die with that discussion, rather than dragging them into other threads where we are discussing new and different stuff.

Anyhow, I wasnt trying to hassle you for expressing what you thought about Miller. I suspect I wasnt as clear as I thought I was - my apologies to you, if my lousy wordsmanship somehow sidetracked a discussion on Mavs choices.

[OutletPass]

Apology accepted, Poindexter.

You're still making incorrect assumptions...
and barking at people, childishly, in other threads.

But I'll let it rest.

[Poindexter Einstein]

OP - I wont belabor this discussion in public. I will make a couple of notes, then invite you to share with me as to whatever you might have a problem with.

You make the statement that I made some "very bad assumptions in this thread" - so I invite you to PM me and tell me what assumptions I made that I shouldnt have. Other than trying to guess why you started taking a miffed tone with me, all I did was share info and opinions here, as far as I can see.

You also said that I made "some nasty ass statements in another thread to others". Again I invite you to PM me with whatever you objected to. Nothing I said was with a nasty tone, anywhere. I share info and opinions. Even when I was skewered for saying where my info came from, I just took a take it or leave it tone - I didnt attack anyone. But I didnt see any benefit in trying to "prove" myself, I preferred to just let it go and let people use it as they wanted. If people want to talk about trades and ignore my info, thats their perogative, and thats what I said - whats wrong with me taking that approach and dropping the subject?

Feel free to PM me with whatever you think was objectionable. This is a chat board, words are not perfect - but I would ask you to attempt to give others the benefit of the doubt for good intentions when they post, cause nothing I have said was intended to do other than state my own opinions or share facts. Just as it is possible that I stated things poorly, I ask that you also read again and examine whether perhaps you took my words in a way they werent intended. That can also happen, if you jump to the conclusion that someone is trying to be difficult and they arent.

[Poindexter Einstein]

You edited out your words to me, that I was replying to ...feel free to PM me with whatever you seem to be having a problem with. As I have said, I am merely here to offer opinions and share facts.

[XERXES]

Back to the point of this thread...


So, who is our guy? Zarco? Tell me more about him. I can understand (w/ the emergence of Okur and the Piston's depth) why he is riding the pine. But, I wonder whether or not he can play any D?...

With all the cap space Denver has - I seriously doubt they'll let the Birdman walk.

Tag seems alright - he's just never done anything for me. He's a couple of years older than I am...and I remember going to Moody to watch him in the HS playoffs when he played for Duncanville. He just seemed soooo uncoordinated then (I know he was 18) - I guess I haven't gotten over that image that I was left with.

KT would be ok. Nothing worth breaking up the big 5 for - but if you could sign himw/the MLE - that'd be fine.

BTW- can we trade our MLE this year? If so, would that have ANY value to anybody?

[MikeB]

Chris Andersen, Denver - Denver will probably keep him
Zeljko Rebraca, Detroit - not very good defensively but has a pretty good offensive game.
Kurt Thomas, Knicks - No Need. Very slightly better than Juwan Howard.
Vlade Divacs, Sac - I don't see him leaving Sac
Greg Ostertag, Utah - I think he would be our best fit.
Marcus Camby - Probably going back east
Mehmet Okur - Detroit signs him
Dale Davis - almost completely washed up. For the Veterans minimum or the small exception I would do it for his toughness.
Brendan Haywood - Is he gonna be a FA? I would look into bringing Haywood to town. Reunite him with Jamison.
Dan Gadzuric - if available I might be inclined to take a look.
Jahidi White - Too big/fat. If we had another coach then maybe. I keep wondering why he can't beat out Jake Voskul?
Dikembe Mutombo - NO
Lorenzen Wright - I think he could help us. Not exactly what we need but better than Kurt Thomas.
Stromile Swift - not a 5. Maybe if he put on 40 pounds but then he wouldn't be a high flyer. More athlete than BB player.
Jake Tsakilidas - he must not be very good as he never gets to play.
Adonal Foyle - athletic and a good RB & BS guy. Offensive nightmare. Nellie would never play him.
Kelvin Cato - Really doubt Van Gundy lets him go.
Tyson Chandler - definitely worth a good long look if he becomes available.