How to play against Dirk, and with him (longer than you can imagine!)

[wmbwinn]

"Finally, one down note, why in the world wasn't Dallas ready to play against the double teams last year?"-SeriousSummer

We asked that question all last season. The Mavs ended up losing to the Heat primarily because the genius Riley put Shaq the king on the bench. Riley played Alonzo Mourning and had Zo play behind Dirk and several different SG/SF's play in front of Dirk. Riley got away with this because Dallas had no low post offensive threat. Zo could ignore Damp and Diop because they couldn't score anyway.

Next year (the year in question), Dallas tried to fix this. Damp and Diop (mainly Damp) showed evidence that they had been working on their offensive game. The pickups (Croshere) were brought in for offense but they were perimeter players in the mold of Dirk. We needed low post men and we still didn't have them when we faced the Warriors. Interestingly, no one except Nellie learned what Riley taught the NBA the previous year. Dallas didn't face that double team until they walked into the playoffs.

This year, Damp and Diop are showing further evidence of continued work on offense. And, Bass is an incredible find. Bass has a future. Once he starts using the glass instead of trying to dunk on NBA starting centers and PF's, then he will really shine.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The double is almost always coming when Dirk catches the ball with his back to the basket, or when he spins. Dirk has been a very effective passer and scorer this year when he is face up on the elbow. This is something they should go to more, because:

1 - it forces a defender out of the paint, and Dirk has excellent court vision to hit someone cutting through the middle or going baseline off a back screen. Dirk has made great strides as a passer from the top of the key this year, and as others get more familiar with the offense, this can become a staple of the offense. This can work very well with guys like Howard/Terry/Harris off the curl, or Bass working the post.

2- it is much easier to pass out of the double team when you are facing the basket and have 4 teammates in your field of vision, than if your back is turned and you have a release man in the corner that is covered. That is why the mavs really haven't been able to exploit double teams with passing - because Dirk only really has one guy to go to.

3- Dirk has frequently shown an effective jab-step from this position. He can use this to either drive and take bigger defenders to the rim, or pop up and shoot over smaller guys - and since it will be in single coverage, he can score with ease like this. If the double doesn't come until he turns his back, why turn his back?

The mavs would do better to also have someone cutting to the rim when dirk catches the ball in the high-post. this will give him a much easier pass out off the double, and exploit a slasher matched up with a center. initiate contact + get to the line, or slip another pass to the open man.

thoughts?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

thoughts?

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Dallas scored a lot of points in the paint. But, it was the 76ers.

Dampier had 7 points in short minutes but couldn't play long minutes due to foul trouble. We need that interior offense on the low post.

76ers do have a pretty good shot-blocker don't they?

[dalmations202]

Dallas still looks like they are transitioning their offense from what I can see. That first half of the game with Philly, Dirk and Stack were facilitating instead of scoring. The second half, they tended to try and score.

Just from watching the game, (I didn't record it so I could break it down), it seems like early they are making an effort to move the ball, and get the centers into the offense. Ball movement is helping, but they are not always with the proper spacing right now. From what I saw in the first half, Dirk was taking the ball at the high post, and trying to get doubled, so they could work on finding the open man.

In the second half, when he took that same position, he tried to score, or run the pick-n-roll out of it when doubled. Timing on the cutting in the first half seemed off, but the pick-n-roll always works with Dirk from the high post.

Dirk is going to be very hard to handle, even if you double him, if this offense can get the timing of the backside cuts correct, and have the player who they double off of cut to the goal -- well that is if they can actually hit a lay-up. I am not sure how many point blank shots they missed last night.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by dude1394

76ers do have a pretty good shot-blocker don't they?

Dalembert is a good center. I'm not impressed with his shot blocking particularly. Dampier fouled a lot in a short time period. Some of those fouls were against Dalembert. Some were smaller players who beat their man and were heading for the rim when Dampier stepped up.

Any team that allows Dallas to win the "points in the paint" war does not have a great interior defense or offense.

[dude1394]

Well he's top 4 ahead of diop and duncan. sounds pretty solid to me.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well he's top 4 ahead of diop and duncan. sounds pretty solid to me.

Dalembert had one block against the Mavs. That is why he did not particularly impress me with his defense watching the Mavs game. The Mavs won the points in the paint contest. Any team that allows Dallas to win that battle does not have a good interior defense. Points in the paint is a weakness for Dallas when we play good defensive teams.

Granted Dalembert is averaging 2.7 blocks per game. Diop also is averaging 2.7 blocks per the stats on yahoo. But, Dalembert was not an impressive defender against the Mavs to my eyes watching the game.

Diop looked like a better defender in that game. Granted, Dalembert scored 18 points and Dampier essentially fouled out fast. But, I noticed more game reel plays by Diop on defense than for Dalembert.

My analysis was a one game analysis.

[alby]

After Dalembert's big contract a couple summers ago, he hasn't been the same player (part of that could also be his injury). To me, he is nothing more than a Keon Clark. An athletic, long, big man who gets a couple blocks and all his points off offensive rebounds and alley oops.

Not including Damp's salary... (because we all know he is overpaid)

Dalembert is definitely not worth his $10+ million dollars a year salary

[wmbwinn]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/...avg=48&split=0

Game Statistics Rebounds Miscellaneous
NAME GP GS MIN PTS OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO A/TO PF TECH
Jose Juan Barea 8 4 12.1 26.7 0.0 4.5 4.5 4.9 0.99 0.00 4.5 1.11 4.0 0.0
Jason Terry 8 0 32.8 31.9 0.2 3.5 3.7 5.5 1.47 0.73 1.6 3.33 3.1 0.0
Josh Howard 6 6 31.8 33.4 0.8 7.8 8.5 3.3 1.26 0.75 1.8 1.86 5.8 0.0
Trenton Hassell 7 1 18.1 4.9 0.8 3.4 4.2 1.5 0.38 0.00 1.5 1.00 4.9 0.0
Dirk Nowitzki 8 8 36.3 26.0 1.5 9.9 11.4 6.8 1.16 1.82 2.3 2.93 4.1 0.0
Jerry Stackhouse 8 2 25.8 18.6 1.9 3.7 5.6 7.2 0.70 0.47 2.3 3.10 3.3 0.0
Eddie Jones 5 5 19.2 6.5 0.0 4.5 4.5 3.5 1.00 0.00 1.0 3.50 2.0 0.0
Devin Harris 5 5 29.2 23.0 0.3 5.6 5.9 7.9 2.63 0.00 4.6 1.71 3.6 0.3
DeSagana Diop 8 8 27.6 8.9 5.6 9.3 15.0 0.9 1.52 4.13 3.7 0.24 5.2 0.0
Brandon Bass 7 0 22.9 19.2 4.2 7.5 11.7 1.5 0.00 2.40 3.6 0.42 5.4 0.0
Juwan Howard 5 0 11.0 1.7 0.9 6.1 7.0 0.0 0.00 0.87 1.7 0.00 9.6 0.0
Maurice Ager 3 1 11.3 12.7 0.0 2.8 2.8 4.2 0.00 0.00 1.4 3.00 7.1 0.0
Erick Dampier 2 0 15.5 15.5 7.7 17.0 24.8 0.0 1.55 0.00 1.5 0.00 10.8 0.0
Nick Fazekas 2 0 2.5 19.2 9.6 9.6 19.2 0.0 0.00 0.00 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.0


The above won't be easy to read but the link is posted. I think that this page really summarizes and re-iterates the main points made in this great post thread.

First, note that there are several important players here who can't play a lot of minutes because they would foul out. The fouls are actually what limit their playing time already and that has been commented on.
Our highest foul committers per 48 minutes are:
Dampier, JuHo, Mo Ager, and JHo who would all foul out every game on average if they played long minutes... JHo is close with 5.8 fouls per 48 minutes averaged. I wanted to start with this group because Dampier and JHo, especially, are very important pieces for us and it would be nice if they could limit their fouls and stay in the game.
Look at Dampier's "per 48 minute" numbers right now (and take it with a grain of salt since he just got back in the lineup):
16 points and 25 rebounds!!!!

JHo: 33 points, 8.5 boards!!!!!

So, it would be really nice if those two would stop fouling...

Next topic:
Brandon Bass: at risk to foul out but fouling at the same rate as Diop per 48 minutes which is not bad for someone playing in the paint.
Look at what Brandon provides per 48 minutes:
19 points and 12 rebounds and 2.4 blocked shots...
As has been noted, I think Bass is going to be an important part of what we are doing especially down the road. Bass is playing a very important role giving us athleticism in the paint to complement JHo and our centers. He can back up a center, a PF, or a SF. His turnovers are high but he's essentially a rookie.

Next: Diop, "the most improved player on the team"-Silk

9 points, 15 boards, 1.5 steals, 4 blocks, turnovers and fouls nearly identical to Bass. Diop is a key to this year along with Bass.

Next: Devin Harris, very much talked about and very much improved and vital to this team, see the Spurs game.
23 points, 6 boards (for a PG), 8 assists, 2.6 steals, and his achilles heal that goes with his wild style of play- 5 turnovers.

Next: our two key bench players, Terry and Stack:
Terry: 32 points, 6 assists
Stack:19 points, 7 assists, 6 rebounds

those two would combine for 51 points and 13 assists and 9 boards.

Now, all of the above is a "per 48 minute" average. The point is that while those players are on the court, those numbers indicate the type of performance or rate of production they provide.

The things that will shake a double team off of Dirk are:
interior offense, see Bass, Dampier, Diop, and JHo (to a degree).

ball movement and penetration:
see Devin and Dirk and Stackhouse and Terry

outside shooting by guys not named Dirk:
see the adjusted field goal percentage per 48 minutes, go to the above link, look at the bottom table, and click on the last column heading "AFG%".
ranked in order, not necessarily based on number of shots taken or adjusted to favor those taking the most shots:
Barea
Terry
Howard (are you surprised he is number 3?)
Dampier
Diop
Harris
Fazekas
Dirk (surprised he is so low? he has not shot well in general)
Stack
Bass

Adjust that to include our primary shooters and you have:
Terry
Howard
Damp/Diop as the two headed center
Dirk
Stack

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Dalembert had one block against the Mavs. That is why he did not particularly impress me with his defense watching the Mavs game. The Mavs won the points in the paint contest. Any team that allows Dallas to win that battle does not have a good interior defense. Points in the paint is a weakness for Dallas when we play good defensive teams.

Granted Dalembert is averaging 2.7 blocks per game. Diop also is averaging 2.7 blocks per the stats on yahoo. But, Dalembert was not an impressive defender against the Mavs to my eyes watching the game.

Diop looked like a better defender in that game. Granted, Dalembert scored 18 points and Dampier essentially fouled out fast. But, I noticed more game reel plays by Diop on defense than for Dalembert.

My analysis was a one game analysis.

Mavs won the points in the paint against the spurts.
Spurs Mavericks
Turnovers: 14 13
Fast Break Pts: 7 19
Biggest Lead: 4 19
Unanswered Pts: 3 0
Points in the Paint: 32 36

[nowitzki_prophecy]

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

.Bass was brought in to provide a scoring option on the post and Diop is looking somewhat more effective on offense

I think you missed the point about Bass,he is there and is inserted pretty strongly into rotation with 22.9 minutes a game,nearly as much as Diop(though so far having a good year),and much more than Damp which was injured.
In my opinion Bass was brought to be a good replacement for Dirk,and more than that,to be willing to play the 4/5 with Dirk and so minimizing the damage of a small line-up like GS or PHX.

[wmbwinn]

Isolation play not in the game plan
By JIM REEVES
Star-Telegram staff writer

"Isn't it too early in the season to worry about Dirk Nowitzki?

Some Mavs fans -- and fellow media brethren -- seem concerned that Dirk hasn't been dominating games as he did much of last season, before the playoffs arrived.

In Thursday night's 105-92 victory over the Spurs, for instance, Dirk's 17 points were only the fourth highest on his team.

After all, Nowitzki also contributed eight boards and five assists, dishing to open teammates

But isn't this what Avery Johnson has been preaching for a couple of years, that somebody else needs to step up because teams are going to try to take Dirk out of the game, especially late, with double and even triple teams?

That's exactly what's happening. Entering Saturday's game, Jason Terry was averaging 21.8 points per game coming off the bench. Josh Howard was hitting at a 22.2 clip since returning from his two-game, season-opening suspension. And Dirk is right there at 19.6, while leading the team with 8.6 rebounds and 5.1 assists per game.

This is what Johnson has been looking for, some more balance in his offense, so that the Mavs have options other than Nowitzki trying to beat two or three defenders and forcing shots instead of passing to open teammates.

Really, it's the key to the Mavs' success if they want to advance in the postseason because that's the formula that other teams consistently use then: Take Dirk out of the equation with double and triple teams and force someone other than Nowitzki to step up and beat them.

Developing those other options is what Avery is trying to do. This isn't nearly as much about Dirk as some people seem to think.

He, in fact, is the least of the Mavs' problems.

As Spurs coach Gregg Popovich noted before Thursday night's game, "[Dirk's] about as perfect as you can get." "

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/...ry/308899.html

_____________________________________________

Makes sense to me. I love to see Josh and Terry and Devin and the centers scoring. The Cowboys moved to a new level when there were no weak points on the offense and any double team carried a big price tag...

[SeriousSummer]

Well, it's good to know that some of our local media seems to know something about the game--although even if it isn't the most popular and accessible way to write about the game, one would have hoped the writers would at least themselves have noted this after the Miami loss.

Dallas still isn't where it needs to be in beating the double team, though. the Mavs and Dirk are doing well against it, but if the Mavs really begin to dominate against it, then teams will quit playing double teams and Dirk will have to start going one-on-one for 30 each night.

But the season is early, and it's just as well teams aren't playing that way--Dirk gets to stay rested until teams take th double team off.

[wmbwinn]

The keys that we are currently working on to beat the zone and double team strategies are:
1)inside scoring by a low post threat. Dampier is having huge games in short minutes. Diop is scoring some but not at the rate Damp is per minute. Bass is scoring down there. Dirk spent a lot of time posting up on the low post in that last game.

2)better passing out of the double team. Dirk is having a huge increase in his assist numbers and he may hit his first triple double as a result. Dirk is having as many assists and Devin, Barea, and Terry right now. Stack has always been a good passer.

3)penetration and ball movement. Devin, Devin, Devin. Mix in a little Barea. Watch Josh penetrate. Watch Terry hit open shots after a rotation of passes.

4)move the offense to better balance where Dirk can be the third highest scorer on the team and it is ok. JHo and Terry are outscoring Dirk nearly every night and we are winning. If you told me last year that Dirk would be the third highest scorer, I'd say we lose. Now, we win with that strategy. Double Dirk and allow our other scorers to
torch you.

Now, we have more improvement to make. And, we have to remember how to play defense at the same time...

[G-Man]

What a lame column. In the whole thing, he makes only 1 point. Its the level of a first grader, compared to the depth of analysis in this thread.

He writes: "But isn't this what Avery Johnson has been preaching for a couple of years, that somebody else needs to step up because teams are going to try to take Dirk out of the game, especially late, with double and even triple teams?"

Ok, so he's been preaching. Can you tell us why now its working? Is it Westphal putting Dirk in better positions? Is it Terry off the bench? You're a reporter, Jim Reeves. You have access. You can get off your butt and go to practices. You can get Avery on the phone. Us dweebs out here don't need you to tell us what we can see. Go find out stuff we don't know.

What a waste of newsprint.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by G-Man

What a lame column. In the whole thing, he makes only 1 point. Its the level of a first grader, compared to the depth of analysis in this thread.

He writes: "But isn't this what Avery Johnson has been preaching for a couple of years, that somebody else needs to step up because teams are going to try to take Dirk out of the game, especially late, with double and even triple teams?"

Ok, so he's been preaching. Can you tell us why now its working? Is it Westphal putting Dirk in better positions? Is it Terry off the bench? You're a reporter, Jim Reeves. You have access. You can get off your butt and go to practices. You can get Avery on the phone. Us dweebs out here don't need you to tell us what we can see. Go find out stuff we don't know.

What a waste of newsprint.

I think you should take that up with him. It truly is abominable, and an embarrassment to the papers of this town.

But then again, these papers are not really ones to hold anyone's feet to the fire, you know what I mean? We are a pretty forgiving town.

[dude1394]

Oh I think the papers in this town are pretty much snooty types. They are alwasy ready for the conventional put-down.

It's one of the reasons that I tout(sp) Art Garcia's blog so much. I'd like for him to be the one to get so much information to the fans.

It would be nice if Art would do a little give and take with the readers.

[wmbwinn]

The other thing Dallas is doing differently is running more. Devin and company (JHo, Terry) are pushing the ball up the court to start the offense before a half court defense can materialize. We are scoring a lot inside of 10-12 seconds off of the shot clock.

Again, the defense is struggling a bit with all of these changes. The slow half court game allows for easier establishment of our own half court team defense.

[wmbwinn]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/...g=none&split=0

more interesting stats. These are totals for the season. I was somewhat surprised by this.

our top 3 scorers by average per game are JHo, Terry, and Dirk in that order. But, JHo missed some games.

So, our top scorer as to total points scored this season is Terry with only 6 more points for the season than Dirk.
Terry-184 points
Dirk-176 points
JHo-160 points

After those three, it drops to 89 by Devin. Stack is nearly an identical 87 and then Bass is next with 75.

Total minutes played are also interesting. Dirk is in a class by himself with 323 minutes played. The second most minutes belong to our sixth man of the season, Terry. That doesn't make Terry sound like a sixth man with his 289 minutes played. After that you drop to Diop with 252 minutes and JHo with 232 minutes. Would you believe that Stackhouse has played more minutes than Devin? He has (228 to 181 minutes). As a matter of fact, Bass's 179 minutes are essentially identical to Devin.

If you go by total minutes played, our real "starters" are:
Dirk, Terry, Diop, JHo, Stack. Interestingly, that works for a lineup as to positions. The real 6th and 7th men are Devin and Bass. Trent Hassel is the distant 8th man.

Fun stats: Dampier has scored more points and has fewer fouls than Trent Hassel...

The stats don't show support for the idea that:
1)Dirk is playing fewer minutes
2)Dirk is taking fewer shots as the offense is going elsewhere

[wmbwinn]

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708DAL1.HTM

more information.

I find it interesting that of the players with a lot of minutes and a lot points and a lot of shots taken, that if you look at Terry's line, that he is by far the only one associated with a horrible defense. Harris and Diop are the best. Look at the column titled "Def" for points the defense scores when that player is on the court.

On the other side of the coin, look and notice that Harris and Dirk are tied for the best offensive production for the team when they are on the court.

Dirk, Diop, JHo, and Harris have the best numbers for the players who are playing heavy minutes. There is quite a drop off with Terry and it appears that it is due to his defensive liability. Note the same thing for Dampier although his minutes are too low to draw any type of conclusion whatsoever.

Anyway, by these numbers it would appear that the Mavs are most in search for a SG or SF (depending on which way JHo is lined up at any given time). With these limited numbers (early in the season), the leading guys by numbers alone (showing favorable outcomes when they are on the court versus off the court) are Terry, Barea, and Jones. Although Stack and Bass are getting minutes, they don't look like they are favorable to the team's outcome. But, numbers of this nature are likely misleading this early in the season.

The main thing that jumped out to me was how much worse our team defense is when Terry or Dampier is in the game. I'll pardon Dampier due to the high possibility of statistical error with his limited minutes this season so far. Bass and Hassel are looking poor as to team defense also while Jones looks quite good for team defense.

The other interesting finding here is that it appears Harris is the most important player as to the effect of him being on the floor versus off the floor. That is interesting since he is not anywhere near the top 5 players for total minutes played for the year...