How to play against Dirk, and with him (longer than you can imagine!) - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

SeriousSummer · 11-11-2007, 09:33 PM

This what we’ve all been talking about—Dirk and how to play against him and with him—so it’s time to tackle the topic head on. This is my attempt to do just that. I’m hoping to have a real, technical basketball discussion here.

So if you just want to say: “Dirk sucks” or “Dirk’s the greatest” or “Trade Dirk for Kobe”, please take that to another of the dozens of threads where it will fit.

The only weapon I have against those kinds of statements is to give negative reputation. I have never, yet, given any one negative rep on this board. But for this one thread I will be pitiless. Be warned.
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Now to the meat of the discussion. First, my description of Dirk as a player.

The good:

Dirk is a unique player. A seven footer with a deadly jump shot and great range. He can put the ball floor and handle with either hand. He’s made himself into a good defensive rebounder and a decent team defender. He’s a willing passer. Dirk is a great free throw shooter. Dirk can finish at the basket with either hand. Dirk can beat smaller defenders with his turn around jump shot at 15 feet and either drive around taller defenders or shoot over them if they sag off of him.

The bad:

Dirk has only average strength for his size. His lateral movement and jumping ability are mediocre. He doesn’t have much in the way of a post up game. His left hand is only useful at the basket. Dirk is not a strong defender and only a fair shot blocker for his size. He rarely goes to the offensive boards.

How to play against Dirk:

We start here because we need to think about the state of the art in defending Dirk and how teams have come to play Dirk as they do.

The early years

In his early years, opponents played Dirk with conventional power forwards—mostly because Dirk was not yet dominate enough to demand special coverage and because Nash and Finley demanded respect. Dirk beat conventional forwards from the outside with his long-range shooting, and with his ball handling. Everything was made easier by Nash’s uncanny passing. In 2005 after Nash left, Nellie started giving the ball to Dirk 18’ from the basket and letting him drive the ball. This was brutally effective against most power forwards.

The middle years

By the end of 2005, many teams started playing Dirk with small forwards like Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion and Tracy McGrady. This approach was relatively effective for a year until the 2006 playoffs when Dirk tore up Shawn Marion and Bruce Bowen to lead the Mavs to the NBA finals. Dirk did this mainly with an unconventional game from the high post. He simply backed the defender into his comfort range and scored with the turn around jumper over them. Miami stopped Dirk by double-teaming him, a lesson teams apparently forgot during Dirk’s MVP season last year when he was unstoppable from the elbow when faced with single coverage.

The last year

In last year’s playoff debacle (and in all the Golden State-Dallas match ups), Nellie showed he had learned Pat Riley’s lesson and double-teamed Dirk wherever he caught the ball. Dirk was slow to move the ball out of the double team and Dallas’s weak ball movement and lack of a true point guard meant the Mavs as a team couldn’t take advantage of the double team. This year most teams (except, ironically, probably some of the best defensive teams in the league that refuse to double team as a matter of principle) have finally learned the lesson from Riley and Nellie. Play Dirk with a smaller, quicker defender and then double team Dirk before he can work his way into a decent shot. I expect that most of the teams in the league will play special defenses against Dirk (67 wins and an MVP merit that) and that the word is out on how to play against Dirk and the Mavs.

How to play with Dirk

The problem for the Mavs to solve, then, is how to play effectively on offense when Dirk is double teamed. Dirk can’t be Shaq and go to the low post to power over it and he can’t be Jordan and bust the double team on the dribble. He doesn’t have those skills. I see two main possibilities for Dirk to play against the double team, which I’ll call “the German National Team Dirk” and “Dirk as facilitator”.

1.The German National Team Dirk

If you watch Dirk play with the German National Team very often, then it becomes clear that Dirk is almost always double-teamed, yet often leads his team in scoring and to a win. Dirk does this by shooting the ball up over the defenders from long range. This is the kind of guiltless, almost selfish play that we seldom see from Dirk when playing with the Mavs. It’s hard to stop a seven footer from shooting the ball from long range, and when Dirk feels confident that he should be shooting such shots, then he hits a lot of them. With the weak German National Team, Dirk knows he must score and so he takes, and makes, a lot of “bad” shots.

Could this strategy work in the NBA? After all, in the Euroleague the defenders are weaker and the three-point line is closer. Look, however, at games 4 and 5 of the Golden State series and you have to say maybe it can. At the end of both games Dirk chose to break off the offensive plan and take it upon himself to shoot his team back from three-point range. He almost brought the Mavs back for a win in game 4 (the Mavs were only 3 back with the ball, but no time outs, at the end) and he did win game 5 for the Mavs with his three-point shooting. Nevertheless, this smacks of a desperation strategy, more suited for a bad team than a team that believes it should contend for a championship.

2. Dirk as facilitator

This is what I believe the Mavs are trying to do this year, and I think the jury is still out on whether it will be successful. In theory, at least, when you force the other team to double team then you’ve created a defensive weakness. Many teams could exploit this advantage ruthlessly. It requires good spacing, crisp ball movement and no hesitation in taking the open shot or driving into the spaces. All space advantages are ephemeral and disappear unless immediately exploited.

But the Mavs have been an iso oriented team the last two years, playing without a true point guard and often trying to hide one or two weak offensive players (a center and a “shooting” guard that can’t shoot). Dirk has gotten better, but still is a little hesitant in his passes. Terry does not move the ball well when he’s at point guard. Hassell, at least, is afraid to take the open outside shot, Jones has been missing and the centers, while playing better, are not established scoring threats.

But I don’t think the Mavs have had enough time yet to see if they can make this work. They’ve only had the last 4 games against Miami, the 9 last year against Golden State and 3 or 4 games this year. The Mavs have made changes that, at least in theory, should discourage teams from double teaming Dirk. Devin Harris has taken over as point guard. Bass was brought in to provide a scoring option on the post and Diop is looking somewhat more effective on offense. The key, though, IMHO is at the shooting guard. The normal swing of the ball after the double team on Dirk goes to Harris at the point, then over to the shooting guard at the free throw line extended, then down to the corner (assuming the post is covered). In the past the Mavs have broken down on the second swing of the ball. Terry moved it to slow and the player getting the ball (Griffin, Buckner, Devin Harris, etc.) wasn’t aggressive enough in trying to score.

I think, as the year goes on, Dirk will be quick enough in moving the ball, the centers will be a better threat in the post, and Josh Howard and Stackhouse will continue to be effective in the corner. So far Harris looks good when he’s at point and JET has been excellent when he’s at shooting guard. What remains to be seen is how Eddie Jones and Trenton Hassell will perform (so far, not well) and what happens when Harris takes a rest and either Terry or Barrea takes over at the point.

Still, I am encouraged. I think the new system is right, and all that remains to see is if the team can pull it off. We’ll get a real sign that it’s working when a team is getting beat badly enough to have to stop double teaming Dirk. But the final answer, as always, will come in the play offs.

Mavs Rule · 11-11-2007, 10:23 PM

Wow, nice analysis! I was touching on this subject and mentioned a few of your points in the "Mavs @ Blazers: 4-2" thread. But you elaborated on them with great in-depth insight and added many more good points.

I agree with everything except when Terry or Harris gets the ball after Dirk is doubled, he should try and penetrate first, swing it second. Then the other guard or Josh should dive cut and have Dirk move out to the arc as the three point threat. At that point he can swing it if he needs to. This will start to unclog the lane for the others, while giving Dirk his most efficient places to score.

This team used to do a decent job on ball movement and motion offense, but as we have aged as a team, the energy is not there as often as it should be.

SeriousSummer · 11-11-2007, 10:36 PM

I don't disagree, but against good quality defenses, I'm assuming the first pass (the point guard at the top of the key) will be covered. So whether you can hurt the defense depends on making the second or third pass.

Dr.Zoidberg · 11-12-2007, 07:51 AM

I definitely think that the ball movement and passing is the key for success. It looks like the team is much better in this category this season but we have to wait as we have only seen 6 games so far. Not only Dirk´s passing is better, also Josh´s passing improved a lot. If this trend goes on, we have a lot of good passers at our team in: Devin, Jet, Stack, Dirk, Barea and Josh (Juwan, Jones have a career average of about 3 assists and are therefore not that bad either, also Hassel had an average of about 3 last season). Definitely we should play less isos and maybe we should try to play some triangle offense?!? Of course to learn the triangle offense is not that easy, but it could pay off.

dalmations202 · 11-12-2007, 09:00 AM

Serious, I think you are pretty well spot on.

Most fans need to consider this though.
#1) Dallas is not running the exact same offense they were last year. There are several changes they have made since signing Paul Westphal.
#2) You are correct, the book on Dallas at this time is Double Dirk with long quick players so he doesn't beat you -- no one else will.
#3) Eddie Jones, Trenton Hassell, Bass are all new players getting integrated in with an existing team. Teammates don't know yet exactly what they will do, or where they are most efficient catching the ball, etc.
#4) Dirk should get to be better at finding the open man when doubled once he gets more familiar with the offense.
#5) Damp and George have yet to see the court this year.
#6) The Centers are actually being integrated into the offense -- which will take a few of Dirks touches away.
#7) Good grief, they are only 6 games into the season. Do the fans want them to win 70 games during the regular season, or win the championship. Good grief, let the younger players get some burn. Let the vets, and new guys learn the new offense. Let the centers realize they are not only playing on the defensive end.

I still think Dirk should set up at the high post 90% of the time because it allows for him backing down players, shooting from the elbow, driving, as well as the pick-n-pop and pick-n-roll. Dirk has the talent to do all of these as well as pass out of double teams which are harder to double there, than they are on the block.

dude1394 · 11-12-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I still think Dirk should set up at the high post 90% of the time because it allows for him backing down players, shooting from the elbow, driving, as well as the pick-n-pop and pick-n-roll. Dirk has the talent to do all of these as well as pass out of double teams which are harder to double there, than they are on the block.

This one I'm not so sure about Dal. I think one reason that a lot of folks do NOT work at the elbow is that the double-team can come from so many direction. Left, right and back. This seemed to be what nellie really did and it caused dirk to have to worry more about where the double is coming from.

If he were a sg who had fantastic handles then this might not be an issue, certainly it's NOT an issue if his back isn't to the basket.

If he is working in the post he has a little bit of help with the sideline so that he sort of can feel where the double is coming from. It may be "easier" to double him but it's also easier for the passer to see the whole court and get a sense of where the open man is going to be.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-12-2007, 09:45 AM

Dirk just needs to stop waiting for double teams. If one's already hounding him, fine too bad, but I think his hesitance caused by waiting for a double team throws off his rhythm. He needs to try to catch the defense off guard more.

dude1394 · 11-12-2007, 09:48 AM

Why would you NOT wait for a double team most of the time? Dirk isn't a point guard or a shooting guard that is going to just dribble all over the place and get into the paint and score? It's why he can't just "drive every time", he's a 7 foot dude with very good handles for a 7 foot dude. But he's not a 6'8 shooting guard.

Waiting for the double team and making the right pass out gives your team an advantage, why wouldn't your coach take advantage of that?

I understand he shouldn't ALWAYS wait for the double but that doesn't change the fact that he's going to get doubled and you need to take advantage of it.

alby · 11-12-2007, 11:18 AM

Dirk is a superstar.

But let me tell you one thing, great players WANT the double team--they INVITE the double team. That is how you put your opponent at a distinct disadvantage right off the bat. Double teams do not put fear into the players that we look up to (MJ, Magic, etc (even Nash)), because double teams don't really stop them and they know they can get an easy attempt at the basket for their team on that possession.

wmbwinn · 11-12-2007, 05:25 PM

The main thing is going to a low post game often enough to prevent defenses from paying attention only to our perimeter game. Whether it is a SF, PF, or center, we need the ball to go down to the low post to draw the defense to there. If the low post guy can't score, then he passes out to the perimeter where Dirk and company should be more open AND Dirk will be facing the basket when he gets the ball...

dalmations202 · 11-12-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

The main thing is going to a low post game often enough to prevent defenses from paying attention only to our perimeter game. Whether it is a SF, PF, or center, we need the ball to go down to the low post to draw the defense to there. If the low post guy can't score, then he passes out to the perimeter where Dirk and company should be more open AND Dirk will be facing the basket when he gets the ball...

Ding, ding, ding...... we have a winner.

randyman · 11-12-2007, 06:57 PM

The main thing I drew from this is the hope that EVERY team starts to play us like Riley and Nellie have so as to force us to overcome it.

SeriousSummer · 11-12-2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randyman

The main thing I drew from this is the hope that EVERY team starts to play us like Riley and Nellie have so as to force us to overcome it.

That's how I see it, too. When you have to double-team, then you admit you can't cope one on one. Dallas just needs to see more of it--I hope the Mavs are working on it every day in practice. Because the only way the Mavs have lost in the last two years is when Dirk was doubled.

I think after another dozen games or so against it, that Dallas will start grinning the minute they see a team double teaming Dirk.

If the Mavs can get to that level, then only a three or four teams in the league--San Antonio, Boston, Detroit, maybe Phoenix--will have a chance to beat them in a play off series.

bcrav4 · 11-12-2007, 08:13 PM

Is GS only able to do this against Dirk? What about Kaman, Duncan, Yao, etc.?

SeriousSummer · 11-12-2007, 08:46 PM

If you double team Duncan, then San Antonio shreds you. It's why they have collected all those stand still three-point shooters over the years--Kerr, Barry, Horry, Finley, etc.

I've never seen anybody bother to double team Kaman.

Yao, like Shaq, is a special case. When a player gets so big, then only a center/power forward double team really makes any difference. This limits your options, but I think those are the only two players in the league right now where that's the case.

G-Man · 11-12-2007, 09:10 PM

First off, Kudos to SS for this excellent thread and analysis.

Remember when I has a sig that said for a team as good as the Mavs, the regular season is 82 practice games until the real season starts? That is more true now than ever.

The great thing about Nellie showing how to beat the Mavs by doubling Dirk is that everyone will try it, and the Mavs will get to practice agaisnt it for 82 games. By the end of the season, I expect Dirk to be as dominant as ever, but in different ways. And for the idiot who says players don't change, let me present Dirk as exhibit A. Nellie said he'd never be a good rebounder, right? Dirk is always learning, always adding to his game.

What we have seen in the 3 games against the young and athletic is Dirk not trying to force the shot. Hell, we all know he can shoot. Now he's practicing making teams pay for the double team by passing out of it. That is not his strong suit and it needs to be. If he keeps working on it, it will be.

Instead of concentrating on Dirk scoring, we see the Mavs feeding the ball to Diop. We see them developing Bass in the low post. We see Howard more active in the 2nd half. We see Jet as the sixth man, scoring like he was still with the Hawks. The Mavs want to get to where they can dare teams to double Dirk, because they'll have 6 other ways to win besides depending on the big German. As those other scoring options get stronger, teams will have to back off the double and triple teams, or get killed for trying. The Mavs have to get to where they don't care.

The Spurs dont care if you double Timmah, because they know that Tony and Manu will come come through in the clutch. Duncan has ony been the leading scorer once so far this year, with 15! The fact that he draws double teams is why the other guys are so effective. With Devin driving, Jet shooting and Howard slashing, we have better weapons. The Mavs have been so dependant on Dirk, they haven't really had to use them. Last year we didnt even ask Howard to score in the 2nd half. I think those days are over.

The Bulls didn't win championships until Jordan scored less. Kobe scores more now than ever, but because of that, his team sucks. He can win some games, but it doesnt matter if he can't win a 7 game series.

You guys can criticize AJ's stagnant offense all you want.. you were probably right. But now you have to sit and watch while they change it to something else. It will be painful and will include losses. Last year the Mavs went with what they knew and won 67 games and it wasn't good enough. They could have started Terry agaisnt GS and Portland but what would theyhave learned? How would that have made them better? Now they are learning new things, including new players, building up the bench, reducing stars minutes. All those things will make them lose. But if in the end it makes them better, I'm on board.

Are you?

bcrav4 · 11-13-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Man

First off, Kudos to SS for this excellent thread and analysis.

Remember when I has a sig that said for a team as good as the Mavs, the regular season is 82 practice games until the real season starts? That is more true now than ever.

The great thing about Nellie showing how to beat the Mavs by doubling Dirk is that everyone will try it, and the Mavs will get to practice agaisnt it for 82 games. By the end of the season, I expect Dirk to be as dominant as ever, but in different ways. And for the idiot who says players don't change, let me present Dirk as exhibit A. Nellie said he'd never be a good rebounder, right? Dirk is always learning, always adding to his game.

What we have seen in the 3 games against the young and athletic is Dirk not trying to force the shot. Hell, we all know he can shoot. Now he's practicing making teams pay for the double team by passing out of it. That is not his strong suit and it needs to be. If he keeps working on it, it will be.

Instead of concentrating on Dirk scoring, we see the Mavs feeding the ball to Diop. We see them developing Bass in the low post. We see Howard more active in the 2nd half. We see Jet as the sixth man, scoring like he was still with the Hawks. The Mavs want to get to where they can dare teams to double Dirk, because they'll have 6 other ways to win besides depending on the big German. As those other scoring options get stronger, teams will have to back off the double and triple teams, or get killed for trying. The Mavs have to get to where they don't care.

The Spurs dont care if you double Timmah, because they know that Tony and Manu will come come through in the clutch. Duncan has ony been the leading scorer once so far this year, with 15! The fact that he draws double teams is why the other guys are so effective. With Devin driving, Jet shooting and Howard slashing, we have better weapons. The Mavs have been so dependant on Dirk, they haven't really had to use them. Last year we didnt even ask Howard to score in the 2nd half. I think those days are over.

The Bulls didn't win championships until Jordan scored less. Kobe scores more now than ever, but because of that, his team sucks. He can win some games, but it doesnt matter if he can't win a 7 game series.

You guys can criticize AJ's stagnant offense all you want.. you were probably right. But now you have to sit and watch while they change it to something else. It will be painful and will include losses. Last year the Mavs went with what they knew and won 67 games and it wasn't good enough. They could have started Terry agaisnt GS and Portland but what would theyhave learned? How would that have made them better? Now they are learning new things, including new players, building up the bench, reducing stars minutes. All those things will make them lose. But if in the end it makes them better, I'm on board.

Are you?

I was one of those "idiots" and I apologize. I guess I was just pissed about seeing the Mavs play as bad as they have ever played. The points in this thread are very salient arguments once you start to put the posts together, and realize this is gonna be a LONG season, with a lot of struggles against this new defensive gameplan against the Mavs.

I'm on board.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-13-2007, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Man

We see Howard more active in the 2nd half.

Is there anything else so blatantly obvious yet so vastly ignored?

nowhereman · 11-13-2007, 03:16 AM

The double is almost always coming when Dirk catches the ball with his back to the basket, or when he spins. Dirk has been a very effective passer and scorer this year when he is face up on the elbow. This is something they should go to more, because:

1 - it forces a defender out of the paint, and Dirk has excellent court vision to hit someone cutting through the middle or going baseline off a back screen. Dirk has made great strides as a passer from the top of the key this year, and as others get more familiar with the offense, this can become a staple of the offense. This can work very well with guys like Howard/Terry/Harris off the curl, or Bass working the post.

2- it is much easier to pass out of the double team when you are facing the basket and have 4 teammates in your field of vision, than if your back is turned and you have a release man in the corner that is covered. That is why the mavs really haven't been able to exploit double teams with passing - because Dirk only really has one guy to go to.

3- Dirk has frequently shown an effective jab-step from this position. He can use this to either drive and take bigger defenders to the rim, or pop up and shoot over smaller guys - and since it will be in single coverage, he can score with ease like this. If the double doesn't come until he turns his back, why turn his back?

The mavs would do better to also have someone cutting to the rim when dirk catches the ball in the high-post. this will give him a much easier pass out off the double, and exploit a slasher matched up with a center. initiate contact + get to the line, or slip another pass to the open man.

shaw-xx · 11-13-2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Man

We see Howard more active in the 2nd half.

It may be only a trend but definitely a good one!

Janett_Reno · 11-13-2007, 05:31 AM

Very good thread.

Janett_Reno · 11-13-2007, 05:36 AM

Your first post i thought broke it down very good. Dirk has the tools to get it done and he needs to shoot more, be more agressive and get himself to the ft line alot each game. This team has alot more talent and deeper than last year. Dirk hasn't had that same fire so far this year but maybe he will get it back soon.

Underdog · 11-13-2007, 07:56 AM

Dirk already seems to be figuring out how to handle the double team... He's averaging almost 5 assists so far this season - pretty good for someone with a career 2.5 APG average... And of course, you don't get credit for an assist without having a teammate who can finish... It looks like the entire squad is figuring out how to play when Dirk is doubled - hopefully we'll have a new game perfected by the time the playoffs roll around....

sike · 11-13-2007, 10:42 AM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SeriousSummer again.

sike · 11-13-2007, 10:46 AM

I want AJ to be more creative in getting Dirk the ball in quick shooting positions...corner threes, top of the arc threes, mabe dare a team to double dirk from the top of the arc would yield interesting results...I have just seen very little creative efforts to combat the constant double teams and at this point I have to assume that it is intentional.

SeriousSummer · 11-13-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I want AJ to be more creative in getting Dirk the ball in quick shooting positions...corner threes, top of the arc threes, mabe dare a team to double dirk from the top of the arc would yield interesting results...I have just seen very little creative efforts to combat the constant double teams and at this point I have to assume that it is intentional.

I think (hope) the Mavs need (and are working on) getting the basics down first. Beat the double-team by swinging the ball. After that, once you've got that down and if there is any need to, then move on to some more sophisticated options.

sike · 11-13-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

I think (hope) the Mavs need (and are working on) getting the basics down first. Beat the double-team by swinging the ball. After that, once you've got that down and if there is any need to, then move on to some more sophisticated options.

I agree that is what they are attempting...but that is allowing the double team to do exactly what it is intended to do and why the double team destroys us....it takes dirk's offensive power (which is the best thing the mavs have) and limits it greatly by making the vast majority of his scores him taking bad shots or forcing him to put himself in bad spots (ala flying through the lane off balance).

creativity is need for Dirk to be what this teams needs him to be.

alby · 11-13-2007, 03:53 PM

As long as there is movement from the other 4 players when Dirk is double teamed, then we are fine. Doubling Dirk only means 1. easy baskets 2. offensive rebounds 3. drawing fouls

We should be expecting/wanting/asking for the double teams.

wmbwinn · 11-13-2007, 04:30 PM

If you back to Serious's first post, then notice that there was also mention of the Euro option which is to take the 3 pointers often and assume a need to be an offensive force. I agree that I don't want Dirk to do that and that alone as a solution. But, I think Dirk should take 5-7 three pointers per game where he is shooting from a quick catch and release position in transition or early in a half court set. We need Dirk to score as Sike pointed out. Passing out of a double team is necessary but it does accomplish what the opponent wants anyway- someone else is going to shoot. The opponent wants someone else not named Dirk to beat them. We still need Dirk to score. So, I say pop some three's as a part of the strategy. Then, the other half of the strategy has to be developing a low post offensive strategy. I think we do that by playing:
Devin, JHo as a SG, Bass as a SF, Dirk, Diop. Diop has shown he can score and make a move in a hurry now. Pass to Bass/JHo in the low pass. Let them make a move and try to score. Pass to Diop inside if the defense gives Bass/JHo that option. Kick it out to Dirk who is facing the basket if the inside options are a "no go" on that possession.

alby · 11-13-2007, 04:34 PM

I would love to see Dirk average 5+ threes a game.

nowhereman · 11-13-2007, 06:06 PM

right - because long rebounds don't directly feed into a running team's offensive strategy

wmbwinn · 11-13-2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

right - because long rebounds don't directly feed into a running team's offensive strategy

You are right. But, if Diop/Dampier, Bass, and JHo are on the court, then we'll get a lot of our rebounds.

When we play a team like the Suns or Warriors, then the strategy has to remain what we have discussed in the past- we need to score close to the basket. We totally failed against GS in the playoffs to do that due to the zone defense. We have to fix that.

But, Dirk has to be involved in the offense. The 3 pointers are one way for Dirk to score despite double teams and zones. But, the rest of the solution is a low post game that will take heat off of Dirk on the perimeter. So, I understand your sarcasm and agree with you. Too many missed 3's against the Suns and GS is a very bad thing.

sike · 11-13-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

As long as there is movement from the other 4 players when Dirk is double teamed, then we are fine.

let me correct this statement, alby,.....we "should be fine"...but history shows something else entirely.

any NBA team "should" have enough talent and wit to destroy a double team...but until the Mavs do it on a consistent basis...I don't think we can expect it.

I totally agree with you guys saying Dirk should take more threes...I'd like to see 4+ attempts a game....think about it, thats only one a quarter.

wmbwinn · 11-13-2007, 08:36 PM

A few random stats that apply to this thread. source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=dal

team leaders in rebounds:
Diop, Dirk, Howard, Bass. The others aren't worth mentioning.
Rebounds per minute played, calculated:
Diop, Bass, Dirk, Howard

Note I recommended these (rebound leaders) all playing at the same time with Devin as the point guard...

------------------------------------------

shooting percentage leaders, adjusted ("adjusted" takes into account free throws and three pointers):
Barea, Terry, Harris, Diop, Howard, Bass, Fazekas, Dirk

Note the low placement of Dirk denoting his difficulties with double teams.

______________________________

free throws attempted per game average (a mark of who is shooting and a hint as to who is driving or trying to score close to the basket):
JHo, Dirk, Harris, Terry, Bass, Stackhouse, Barea

______________________________

Assists per game:
Dirk, Terry, Harris, Stackhouse, Howard.

Note that Dirk, Terry, and Harris are all essentially tied. This is interesting because it is a general consensus that Dirk has to work on passing out of double teams. Looks like he is leading the team in assists...

-------------------------------------------
Points per game:
Howard, Terry, Dirk, Harris, Stackhouse, Bass

Ever thought you would see Dirk as the third leading scorer on our team???
Ever thought before the season that Bass would average double digit scoring?
6th man is the second leading scorer?

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shots taken per game, compare this to points scored, quite interesting comparison:
Dirk, JHo, Terry, Harris, Stackhouse, Bass, Barea, Diop

The only misfit between shots taken and points scored as to rank here is Dirk...

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Blocks per game:
Diop, Bass, Howard, Dirk

Again, note these same four are our top 4 rebounders and they could play together with Bass as the SF and JHo as the SG...

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assist to turn over ratio:
no surprise, look for vets to do well:
Eddie Jones, Terry, Stack, Howard, Dirk (since he leads in assists, he has high turnovers to be this low in the ranking; again a product of the double teams)

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turnovers per game:
should be rookies?:

Harris, Diop, Dirk, Bass, Barea...

So, as Serious indicated, Dirk is struggling with the double team. He leads the team in shots taken but is missing his shots. He is third on points scored despite taking the most shots. He is leading the team in assists as he passes out of double teams. He is turning the ball over a lot for a vet due to the double teams. These represent a lot of changes and Serious has done a good job pointing them out.

wmbwinn · 11-13-2007, 11:09 PM

See what happened tonight???

Dirk nearly had the triple double and would have if several shots hadn't been missed that would have qualified as assists. That is how KG plays and that is how Dirk has to play out of double teams.

We also saw the lineup of a PG, JHo as a SG, Bass as the SF, Dirk, and a center. It was used for a while in the first half and it worked. Sneaky Avery pulled it away. Sneaky Avery also used Juwan as the center to hide what that powerful combo can really do.

Maybe we'll see the combo in the Spurs game.

Dallas scored a lot of points in the paint. But, it was the 76ers.

Dampier had 7 points in short minutes but couldn't play long minutes due to foul trouble. We need that interior offense on the low post.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-13-2007, 11:34 PM

I am pretty confident Dirk will have his first triple double this season.

SeriousSummer · 11-13-2007, 11:35 PM

I'm little worried about whether the front line of Dirk/Bass/Diop or Dampier can play defense against many teams. Tonight Dirk had to play against Iguodala quite a bit, and that's not a match up that I think favors Dallas.

Most importantly, though, Dallas showed the first signs of shredding the double teams. Dirk had 8 assists and easily made enough good passes to get the triple double.

It was hard to tell in the second half whether Philly went away from the double team--Dallas (especially Devin Harris) pushed the ball so hard that Philly couldn't get the defense set much of the time. If you run, then you don't need to play half court offense.

Something else to consider, a couple of Dirk passes (or any pass for that matter) to Damp and Diop for dunks is going to keep them interested and in the game. I thought they played exceptionally well tonight.

I'm going to make a prediction--hold me to it--by the All Star break, teams are going to be afraid to double on Dirk. Other than coaches that like to make the freak play (Nellie), teams won't try to double Dirk unless he goes off for 15 or 20 in the first half.

Until then, Dallas needs to keep moving the ball and working the wrinkles out of the half court offense.

Finally, one down note, why in the world wasn't Dallas ready to play against the double teams last year?

G-Man · 11-13-2007, 11:37 PM

Against Philly, I noticed Dirk passing up a huge number of shots. He was great whipping passes to the open man. Often instead of going straight up for an easy, open shot, he'd pump fake. I think he just wants to practice those moves. He passed up an easy layup to drop a pass to Diop in traffic under the basket.

Dirk will be an even better scorer when teams are worried about him finding Jet and Stack open for threes and Devin and Josh slashing to the basket.

Please Mavs, keep this up all season. The Mavs are already a top scoring team. Add a confident, quick passing starting point guard and an MVP who's suddening handing out a half dozen dimes a night and we'll be really dangerous. Nellie will have a much harder time when Dirk stops turning into the double team and starts passing over those shrimps to a wide open JET.

nowhereman · 11-13-2007, 11:40 PM

Dirk had 3 times tonight against Philly where he was doubled that he fed the ball to someone flashing in the middle of the lane, much as I had suggested in my prior post. This led to 3 wide open shots (terry botched one of them). In these instances, the side of the floor was isolated and the cutter was the person who initiated the pass to Dirk. That led to a lot of space being cleared out. This seems like the most elementary of ways to defeat a double team on the block or high post, and it worked well. There was also an instance of Terry cutting the baseline in the 2nd Q and this led to an easy shot.

There were also about 5 times where there was no motion at all when Dirk was doubled teamed, and all that happened was that the mavs had to reset. On these possessions the mavs did pretty much nothing, the notable exception being when Jet hit a bailout 3 from 27 feet at the shot clock buzzer. There was an instance where there was much confusion from the offense that led to a 3 in the key call against Bass. Basically, he like everyone else, was just sitting there watching.

The mavs were extremely successful tonight in half court sets where Dirk was involved. They were not nearly as good in half court sets where Dirk was not involved.

Dirk also had numerous times today where he started moving before the double came. This let him penetrate and threw the defense in disarray. This yielded a 3 by Eddie Jones in the first Q, and lots of times where he was able to split double teams and drive from the 3 point line to get to the rim, or pull up from a shot.

So in summation, 2 major lessons learned tonight.

1 - The team is much more efficient when they utilize screens or flash up the middle when dirk is doubled, than when they stand around and wait for bailout passes and try to swing the ball, and

2 - Moving early before the defense recovers or the double team arrives can leave opposing defenses in disarray. Dirk has made great strides in finding people from the top of the key, or penetrating off the dribble from that same spot.

The mavs are getting better as we speak. And who says games in November don't matter?

Janett_Reno · 11-13-2007, 11:40 PM

Dirk had a good all around performance tonight. I was proud of his performance.

Go look what Gasol and Milicic did to Houston tonight. Gasol does like Dirk some and he isn't agressive every game and tonight he shot 17 ft's. If a player like Dirk and even Gasol would stay focused and aggressive each and every night, no telling how good they can be. After last year, up untill the playoffs, i tought Dirk was going to be a monster day in and day out. We are going to be ok.