Championship and Playoff series failures - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Silk Smoov · 11-09-2008, 12:40 PM

I have a question to ask.

Is there a team out there with more players that have been a part of Championship or Playoff series collapse failures than the Mavs?

1. Recent Championship Extreme Failures: (I mean collapses for the most part)
Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, and Damp -2006 (Up 2-0 and lost to the Heat)
George -2004 (lost to the Pistons while having Kobe, Shaq, Malone and Payton)
Kidd - (Went to Finals back2back and could not win a title)

2. Recent Playoff Collapse Failure:
Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, Damp, Diop, George -2007 (67 win team loses in 1st round)

3. Current 2008-2009 Mavs Top Players:
Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, Diop, Damp, George, Kidd

4. Current Mavs Coach Rick Carlise:
Season Regular Season Record Post Season Record
2001-02 50-32 4-6
2002-03 50-32 8-9
2003-04 61-21 10-6
2004-05 44-38 6-7
2005-06 41-41 2-4
2006-07 35-47 Did not make playoffs
2007-08 ? Did not make playoffs

5. We now couple players with recent playoff collapses with a coach with recent playoff collapes and expect different results?

6. According to these numbers all these players and coaches have gotten worse and worse after recent playoff collapses and failures and expect different results?

7. To just finish off the expectations we become the 2nd oldest team in the NBA?

8. Does anyone else see a problem here? Just saying......

DubOverdose · 11-09-2008, 12:46 PM

We have to make the playoffs for any of this to matter.

catsil · 11-09-2008, 01:48 PM

You forgot our Golden Ticket.. Devean George, doesn't he have a ring?

Zki41 · 11-09-2008, 06:10 PM

I believe he has 3, does he not?

Dtownsfinest · 11-09-2008, 06:33 PM

This is why I thought this team should've been mixed up from the get go. I don't want to use the term "blow up" because I didn't think it needed to be that drastic. But the core of players had to change. They're losers. Eventually when you keep going through a collapse every year it starts get in your head and you start to think maybe you are a loser. I just think this team needed to get rid of its core players and surround Dirk with players who weren't here through the meltdowns. I didn't want to trade Harris but I thought bringing in Kidd would be a positive because he wasn't here through the failures and he wants a ring just as bad as the next guy. Seems like its starting to rub off on him too.

Silk Smoov · 11-09-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

This is why I thought this team should've been mixed up from the get go. I don't want to use the term "blow up" because I didn't think it needed to be that drastic. But the core of players had to change. They're losers. Eventually when you keep going through a collapse every year it starts get in your head and you start to think maybe you are a loser. I just think this team needed to get rid of its core players and surround Dirk with players who weren't here through the meltdowns. I didn't want to trade Harris but I thought bringing in Kidd would be a positive because he wasn't here through the failures and he wants a ring just as bad as the next guy. Seems like its starting to rub off on him too.

I agree. As I started to really look at the mental make-up of the team, I saw this problem. Then when you factor in Carlisle he is pretty much in the same mental state. This is why players like Horry, Cassel, Posey are such great additions to teams. They know how to win and bring that mental edge that you need in the playoffs. We really need those role type players who are used to winning in the playoffs.

I think we are stuck in mental fatigue and it does not take much for the team to get in a funk. I will say that Kidd is the best thing for the mental state of this team. Is it enough? I dont think so, but I am hoping he can will this team to get over the mental part of the game. Could Carlisle help? I just dont know, but hope so.

chumdawg · 11-09-2008, 10:09 PM

Just looking at the Carlisle numbers you posted...that certainly doesn't look like epic fail to me. In fact, on the whole it looks pretty darn solid as far as playoff performances go.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-09-2008, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Just looking at the Carlisle numbers you posted...that certainly doesn't look like epic fail to me. In fact, on the whole it looks pretty darn solid as far as playoff performances go.

Truth. It's actually quite impressive for a coach to have a long term record around .500 in the playoffs.

Underdog · 11-09-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Just looking at the Carlisle numbers you posted...that certainly doesn't look like epic fail to me. In fact, on the whole it looks pretty darn solid as far as playoff performances go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Truth. It's actually quite impressive for a coach to have a long term record around .500 in the playoffs.

Not to mention that he didn't coach in 07-08, hence the reason he didn't make the playoffs...

Silk Smoov · 11-09-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Just looking at the Carlisle numbers you posted...that certainly doesn't look like epic fail to me. In fact, on the whole it looks pretty darn solid as far as playoff performances go.

Chum,
Remember that year with the Pistons to where his team was the favorite to win the nba title but lost. Playoff record is not that bad, but he is still under .500 in the playoffs. So, I dont call that a good playoff record. Avery had a very good playoff record until the last two years, then his playoff recordgot under .500

chumdawg · 11-09-2008, 11:30 PM

Looking at win percentage over all playoff games is probably less fruitful than looking at win percentages across series. Here's what I see. Regular season wins first, playoff record next:

50 - 1-1
50 - 2-1
61 - 2-1
44 - 1-1
41 - 0-1

That's 6-5 in series, if you are counting, which is above .500. What does it say, though? His first 50-win team got out of the first round, at least. How good was the team it lost to in the second round? Remember that it usually becomes much, much harder to win in the next round. His second 50-win team made the conference finals. That's a strong accomplishment. His 61-win team made the conference finals. They did not disappoint. His 44-win team won in the first round, which is a nice accomplishment. His 41-win team lost in the first round, as it probably should have.

Silk Smoov · 11-09-2008, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Looking at win percentage over all playoff games is probably less fruitful than looking at win percentages across series. Here's what I see. Regular season wins first, playoff record next:

50 - 1-1
50 - 2-1
61 - 2-1
44 - 1-1
41 - 0-1

That's 6-5 in series, if you are counting, which is above .500. What does it say, though? His first 50-win team got out of the first round, at least. How good was the team it lost to in the second round? Remember that it usually becomes much, much harder to win in the next round. His second 50-win team made the conference finals. That's a strong accomplishment. His 61-win team made the conference finals. They did not disappoint. His 44-win team won in the first round, which is a nice accomplishment. His 41-win team lost in the first round, as it probably should have.

Ok, then that would mean Avery is a better playoff coach than his record says? Also, then dont that mean that when Carlisle loses in the playoffs, he loses pretty bad? Dont forget his Pacers had the best record in the NBA that year and did not make it to the NBA finals losing 2-4 with the homecourt against the Pistons. Remember that was the same Pistons team he had just left as well. Come on Chum, he was also in the East

Had to go back to see Avery record compared to Carlisle:

Avery:

Year Season Record Playoff Record
04-05 16-2 1-1
05-06 60-22 3-1 NBA Finals
06-07 67-15 0-1
07-06 51-31 0-1

Regular season: 194- 70
Playoff Record: 4-4

So, if we all agree that Avery did not do a good job from the Western Conference, then I would say Carlisle did much worst in that regard.

chumdawg · 11-10-2008, 12:39 AM

Looking at the actual series, I would agree that Carlisle's teams didn't overperform in the playoffs. But I don't find any epic fails, either. He's a young coach, and I don't think that you can say much about his body of work up to now that would necessarily have a bearing on what he will do going forward.

Silk Smoov · 11-10-2008, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Looking at the actual series, I would agree that Carlisle's teams didn't overperform in the playoffs. But I don't find any epic fails, either. He's a young coach, and I don't think that you can say much about his body of work up to now that would necessarily have a bearing on what he will do going forward.

I agree, but I am just saying his playoff performance is not up to par with a team like the Mavs who is needing a coach with winning playoff experience to help them mentally. When I look at Carlise playoff record and success, it reminds me of Avery, when early success in the playoffs melted down to doing worse and worse each year afterwards.

chumdawg · 11-10-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I agree, but I am just saying his playoff performance is not up to par with a team like the Mavs who is needing a coach with winning playoff experience to help them mentally.

Well, let's be real here. Besides bringing Nellie back, who could they have hired? Show me your list of available coaches with winning playoff experience who could help them mentally.

Quote:

When I look at Carlise playoff record and success, it reminds me of Avery, when early success in the playoffs melted down to doing worse and worse each year afterwards.

Avery didn't just melt down. Avery melted and then evaporated in record time. He disappeared like David Blayne.

Trust me, that particular feat is not going to be matched any time soon. Any parallels you would draw would have no basis whatsoever.

LonghornDub · 11-10-2008, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He disappeared like David Blayne.

This comparison is quite apt on multiple levels, as David Blaine is also a huge douchebag.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-10-2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I agree, but I am just saying his playoff performance is not up to par with a team like the Mavs who is needing a coach with winning playoff experience to help them mentally. When I look at Carlise playoff record and success, it reminds me of Avery, when early success in the playoffs melted down to doing worse and worse each year afterwards.

You couldn't be more wrong about Carlisle. He's never had any meltdowns. The only series he lost that you could argue he should've won was in 03 when his Pistons lost to the Nets.

The next year, when his Pacers lost to the Pistons, they lost to the better team. The Pacers did have the best record that year, yes, but remember that Detroit acquired Rasheed right before the deadline. That was HUGE. If Detroit had Rasheed from the season opener, they might've had the best record. I mean, c'mon, Chauncey Billups against Jamaal Tinsley? Tayshaun Prince against a 40-year-old Reggie Miller? Detroit was the better team, hands down. Didn't that Detroit team also go on to win the championship 4 games to 1 against the heavily favored Lakers? I believe they did.

And the only reason the Pacers did "worse and worse each year" after that was because of the brawl. Remember the beginning of the 05 season? The Pacers were favored to win the East. Then Artest gets suspended for the rest of the season, with Stephen Jackson and JO missing significant time too. The Pacers never recovered from that because JO could never stay healthy, not to mention Jackson's well-documented off-court problems.

Carlisle's coaching in Indiana was outstanding IMO. After the brawl, the Pacers were expected to have one of the worst records in the league, and they still managed to make the playoffs that year and get out of the first round. Indiana's downfall was anything but Carlisle's fault.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-10-2008, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Avery didn't just melt down. Avery melted and then evaporated in record time. He disappeared like David Blayne.

Trust me, that particular feat is not going to be matched any time soon. Any parallels you would draw would have no basis whatsoever.

No kidding. The Mavs would've won back to back championships in 06 and 07 if they had a coach who didn't have his head up his ass IMO.

When you look back on it, it really is baffling that he got hired in the first place. I mean, back then, wasn't the mantra "Anything short of a championship is a failure" or something like that? So you have a team that is absolutely bound and determined to win a championship, and you hire a guy with absolutely no coaching experience whatsoever? A guy less than a year removed from his career as a player? I mean, I know Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich weren't available, but seriously, if Nellie steps down at least use Del Harris as the interim coach or something.

ghazi · 11-10-2008, 08:30 AM

Mentality is overrated. We saw mental midget KG win a title just now (all that yellin and screamin and beatin his chest is a facade!)... It's about talent. We've many times complained about the lack of a low post presence / shooting guard on the Mavs. THOSE are the issues... not the collective mentality of this team.

Every team has a few mental midgets anyway, I wouldn't call the Mavs a collection of mental losers.

Silk Smoov · 11-10-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, let's be real here. Besides bringing Nellie back, who could they have hired? Show me your list of available coaches with winning playoff experience who could help them mentally.

Avery didn't just melt down. Avery melted and then evaporated in record time. He disappeared like David Blayne.

Trust me, that particular feat is not going to be matched any time soon. Any parallels you would draw would have no basis whatsoever.

I would say Larry Brown would be a good fit mentally for the Mavs. Sad, but that is about as far as I could go with the available coaches at the time. I know the Mavs had a short list to go by, but I am just pointing out that Carlisle and the Mavs past seems alot alike to me. I would not really call Carlisle playoff career a total failure, but I just see some similar failures after having early success.

Rick: Given a team w/ the Pacers that was already ready to win a title
Avery: Given a team w/ the Mavs that was already ready to win a title

Rick: NBA coach of the year 2002 (Very early in his career)
Avery: NBA coach of the year 2006? (Very early in his career)

Rick: Next year after winning COY, had the NBA best regular season record
Avery: Next year after winning COY, had the NBA best regular season record

Rick: His team with the best record was picked to win the NBA title, lost in EC Finals
Avery: His team with the best record was picked to win the NBA title, lost in 1st round
(Not saying the same failures, but similar in nature)

Rick: Set franchise record for regular season wins
Avery: Set franchise record for regular season wins

Rick: After playoff loss w/ team w/ best record, his teams have not done too well.
Avery: After playoff loss w/ team w/ best record, his teams have not done too well.

Rick: Pretty decent regular season record, and losing playoff record was out of a job.
Avery: Pretty decent regular season record, and losing playoff record was out of a job.

Rick: Young coach with alot of potential
Avery: Young coach with alof of potential

Silk Smoov · 11-10-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

You couldn't be more wrong about Carlisle. He's never had any meltdowns. The only series he lost that you could argue he should've won was in 03 when his Pistons lost to the Nets.

The next year, when his Pacers lost to the Pistons, they lost to the better team. The Pacers did have the best record that year, yes, but remember that Detroit acquired Rasheed right before the deadline. That was HUGE. If Detroit had Rasheed from the season opener, they might've had the best record. I mean, c'mon, Chauncey Billups against Jamaal Tinsley? Tayshaun Prince against a 40-year-old Reggie Miller? Detroit was the better team, hands down. Didn't that Detroit team also go on to win the championship 4 games to 1 against the heavily favored Lakers? I believe they did.

And the only reason the Pacers did "worse and worse each year" after that was because of the brawl. Remember the beginning of the 05 season? The Pacers were favored to win the East. Then Artest gets suspended for the rest of the season, with Stephen Jackson and JO missing significant time too. The Pacers never recovered from that because JO could never stay healthy, not to mention Jackson's well-documented off-court problems.

Carlisle's coaching in Indiana was outstanding IMO. After the brawl, the Pacers were expected to have one of the worst records in the league, and they still managed to make the playoffs that year and get out of the first round. Indiana's downfall was anything but Carlisle's fault.

Lets say that you are completely right on this. Then tell me why they fired him, and why he sat out for an entire season afterwards while no GM took a chance on this young great coach?

Usually Lurkin · 11-10-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No kidding. The Mavs would've won back to back championships in 06 and 07 if they had a coach who didn't have his head up his ass IMO.

When you look back on it, it really is baffling that he got hired in the first place. I mean, back then, wasn't the mantra "Anything short of a championship is a failure" or something like that? So you have a team that is absolutely bound and determined to win a championship, and you hire a guy with absolutely no coaching experience whatsoever? A guy less than a year removed from his career as a player? I mean, I know Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich weren't available, but seriously, if Nellie steps down at least use Del Harris as the interim coach or something.

good grief. you are off your rocker.
Just because the team wants to win really, really, really bad means that any coach could get them to the finals? That's just nuts. Didn't Avery bring that motto in the first place? We barely sniffed a championship before he was here, and things aren't looking so great now that he's gone. Avery was the right coach at the right time that finals year. Something fell apart during the finals (and the refs had more to do with it than Avery), and that something is still fallen apart. It could very easily be Josh Howard or Jason Terry.

jthig32 · 11-10-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Rick: Given a team w/ the Pacers that was already ready to win a title
Avery: Given a team w/ the Mavs that was already ready to win a title

The Pacers were hardly a team "ready to win a title". They had won 41, 42 and 48 games the previous three seasons. Rick pushed them to 61 wins and the top seed. Also, the notion that they were the favorites to win the title is incorrect. The Lakers were still the heavy favorites to win the title, and the Pistons were largely considered the favorites in the East because of what they did after the Rasheed Wallace trade.

Silk Smoov · 11-10-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The Pacers were hardly a team "ready to win a title". They had won 41, 42 and 48 games the previous three seasons. Rick pushed them to 61 wins and the top seed. Also, the notion that they were the favorites to win the title is incorrect. The Lakers were still the heavy favorites to win the title, and the Pistons were largely considered the favorites in the East because of what they did after the Rasheed Wallace trade.

I am talking about that highly regarded Pacers team he inherited from Isiah Thomas, when Carlisle buddy Larry Bird got hired for GM. All the pieces were there to win a title when he got there. Same thing happened to Avery.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-10-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

good grief. you are off your rocker.
Just because the team wants to win really, really, really bad means that any coach could get them to the finals? That's just nuts. Didn't Avery bring that motto in the first place? We barely sniffed a championship before he was here, and things aren't looking so great now that he's gone. Avery was the right coach at the right time that finals year. Something fell apart during the finals (and the refs had more to do with it than Avery), and that something is still fallen apart. It could very easily be Josh Howard or Jason Terry.

Are you kidding? Did you even read what I said? Any coach could get them to the finals? That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said.

If you have a championship contender in need of a coach, you hire someone with experience. Jeez.

And no, Avery was not the right coach... EVER. Dirk got us to the finals. Dirk. Not Avery. Dirk. Yeah, the refs screwed us, but not half as hard as Avery did. I've never seen a team favored to win a title suddenly forget how to set picks, or throw entry passes before the shot clock expires, or move without the ball. Simple, basic, kindergarten fundamentals like this were just not in Avery's playbook.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-10-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Lets say that you are completely right on this. Then tell me why they fired him, and why he sat out for an entire season afterwards while no GM took a chance on this young great coach?

I honestly don't know exactly why they fired him. I figure they were in rebuilding mode and just wanted a fresh perspective.

Why he sat for a season? Because the Mavs were f**king stupid enough to waste another year on Avery, that's why.

LonghornDub · 11-10-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Why he sat for a season? Because the Mavs were f**king stupid enough to waste another year on Avery, that's why.

I think he was asking you why no other team hired him during that year, not why the Mavs didn't fire Avery and hire him.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-10-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I think he was asking you why no other team hired him during that year, not why the Mavs didn't fire Avery and hire him.

I kinda got that. There was a bit of sarcasm in my answer. I dunno though. How many other positions were available. I don't remember. Was there there a lot of coaching turnover that season? Furthermore, was there any position Carlisle was offered that he would've been interested? How do we know he didn't turn down some offers. I don't know.

LonghornDub · 11-10-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I kinda got that. There was a bit of sarcasm in my answer. I dunno though. How many other positions were available. I don't remember. Was there there a lot of coaching turnover that season? Furthermore, was there any position Carlisle was offered that he would've been interested? How do we know he didn't turn down some offers. I don't know.

I dunno either. I thought maybe you did.

Silk Smoov · 11-10-2008, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I honestly don't know exactly why they fired him. I figure they were in rebuilding mode and just wanted a fresh perspective.

Why he sat for a season? Because the Mavs were f**king stupid enough to waste another year on Avery, that's why.

A hot young great coach like that would never be w/o a job in the NBA. There had to be something to where GM's would not pick him up right after the Pacer gig. Keep in mind that he left a Larry Bird Pacer team. Carlisle and Bird were very good friends from playing together and coaching together under Bird. There had to be a reason other than re-building.

When Carlisle left the Pistons, the players wanted to get rid of him as well for some reason or another, and won the NBA title after the next year. Then his buddy Bird let him go as well. To top it off, no other GM took a chance on him for an entire year. Is there something there? Dont know, but it looks a little fishy to me. IMO

Now, Avery is another story. Young, hot coach with one of the best regular season records ever, but is now without a job for an entire season. Is there a reason for it? Could be, dont know, but it is fishy. We all know why he is NOT here, but why is he not anywhere else?

Silk Smoov · 11-10-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I kinda got that. There was a bit of sarcasm in my answer. I dunno though. How many other positions were available. I don't remember. Was there there a lot of coaching turnover that season? Furthermore, was there any position Carlisle was offered that he would've been interested? How do we know he didn't turn down some offers. I don't know.

I think maybe Carlisle turned all those jobs away like Avery did

fluid.forty.one · 11-10-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

A hot young great coach like that would never be w/o a job in the NBA. There had to be something to where GM's would not pick him up right after the Pacer gig. Keep in mind that he left a Larry Bird Pacer team. Carlisle and Bird were very good friends from playing together and coaching together under Bird. There had to be a reason other than re-building.

When Carlisle left the Pistons, the players wanted to get rid of him as well for some reason or another, and won the NBA title after the next year. Then his buddy Bird let him go as well. To top it off, no other GM took a chance on him for an entire year. Is there something there? Dont know, but it looks a little fishy to me. IMO

Now, Avery is another story. Young, hot coach with one of the best regular season records ever, but is now without a job for an entire season. Is there a reason for it? Could be, dont know, but it is fishy. We all know why he is NOT here, but why is he not anywhere else?

bologna

players want to get rid of coaches all the time.. coaches get fired all the time. It doesn't mean they are bad coaches. And him being friends with Bird has nothing to do with it. Nellie was the GMs son when he got fired for christsake. And how do you know the year off was because he wanted the time off to do ESPN? or because he wasn't interested in any of the teams with open positions?

I'll judge Rick on what he did with his past teams and what he's doing with this team. All that gossip and guessing doesn't do anything for me.

Usually Lurkin · 11-10-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Are you kidding? Did you even read what I said? Any coach could get them to the finals? That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said. Any coach could get them to the finals? That's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I said.

no it's not, its a direct inference.

Quote:

If you have a championship contender in need of a coach, you hire someone with experience. Jeez.

. . . but they got there with Avery, not with Nellie

Quote:

And no, Avery was not the right coach... EVER. Dirk got us to the finals. Dirk. Not Avery. Dirk.

Hence the inference above. You are saying that any coach would have gotten us there. . . but Dirk got there with Avery, not with Nellie

Silk Smoov · 11-11-2008, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

bologna

players want to get rid of coaches all the time.. coaches get fired all the time. It doesn't mean they are bad coaches. And him being friends with Bird has nothing to do with it. Nellie was the GMs son when he got fired for christsake. And how do you know the year off was because he wanted the time off to do ESPN? or because he wasn't interested in any of the teams with open positions?

I'll judge Rick on what he did with his past teams and what he's doing with this team. All that gossip and guessing doesn't do anything for me.

Dont give that speech. Players DONT always want to get rid of coaches. You sound silly to think that if a good friend of Carlisle fired him it dont mean nothing. When you fire a friend, you are essentially taking food from the table of that person that you are friends with. So, yes it had to take alot for Bird to fire him. I dont know what it was, nor do you, but I will assume it took alot to fire a friend.

When was the last time you heard of a young hot coach wanting to take off for ESPN? Well, I heard of one and his name is Avery. Remember all those head coaching jobs he turned down? For the record, Nellie did NOT get fired. Nellie did what he wanted to do to promote Avery and get paid from Cuban. As of matter of fact, he got paid twice, because Mark paid him and he took a new job as well all while relaxing on the beaches doing some so called scouting.

Carlisle is NOT above criticism, so it comes with the territory. I have not seen a single thing to change my mind otherwise on Carlisle from the past. I was hoping he would become the difference maker and that the complete problem was Avery. Right now, it looks like the problems are much deeper than Avery.

chumdawg · 11-11-2008, 01:07 AM

No, the problems are not deeper than Avery. Avery has his fingerprints all over this team. Carlisle is busy trying to change the diaper.

LonghornDub · 11-11-2008, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No, the problems are not deeper than Avery. Avery has his fingerprints all over this team. Carlisle is busy trying to change the diaper.

'Ya gahwt to pahss the bahsketbahwl!

chumdawg · 11-11-2008, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

'Ya gahwt to pahss the bahsketbahwl!

"We brought him here to close out see-uh-rees." But not to close out a game against the Spurs in the last thirty seconds.

LonghornDub · 11-11-2008, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

"We brought him here to close out see-uh-rees." But not to close out a game against the Spurs in the last thirty seconds.

If only Avery had all-star Devin Harris instead of crappy Jason Kidd, he could have easily coached us to victory in those final 30 seconds. After all--Devin was like his son. Didn't ya know?

dirno2000 · 11-11-2008, 03:09 AM

Avery's actually looking pretty good at this point. We're worse in all three phases of the game, our pace hasn't increased much, we still can't close out games and just two weeks into the season Dirk is already calling out his teammates for lack of effort. Also Kidd's numbers aren't any better than they were under Avery despite the motion offense and the increased emphasis on running.

LonghornDub · 11-11-2008, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Avery's actually looking pretty good at this point. We're worse in all three phases of the game, our pace hasn't increased much, we still can't close out games and just two weeks into the season Dirk is already calling out his teammates for lack of effort. Also Kidd's numbers aren't any better than they were under Avery despite the motion offense and the increased emphasis on running.

Give then time. Remember what happened to the Rockets last year? They had basically the exact same team as the year before, but started off the season something like 5-7 under their new coach. Then they hovered around .500 for the first 25 or so games. Suddenly, 22 game winning streak.