Butler/Haywood/Stevenson to the Mavs!! - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dnowit41 · 02-13-2010, 03:37 AM

The Washington Wizards and Dallas Mavericks are nearing completion on a trade that will exchange Caron Butler and Josh Howard, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

The teams were negotiating whether to expand the trade to include Wizards center Brendan Haywood, but one source with knowledge of the talks said he doesn’t expect the core of the deal – Butler and Howard – to unravel. Wizards guard DeShawn Stevenson is expected to be moved to Dallas in either deal involving Butler.

The Mavericks would send Quinton Ross or Tim Thomas and possibly Drew Gooden to Washington if the trade also includes Haywood.

What do you guys think?

CadBane · 02-13-2010, 03:48 AM

Inflammable means flammable!? What a country!

Dirkadirkastan · 02-13-2010, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnowit41

What do you guys think?

I think it's about time our long-winded discussion on this substantial rumor finally earned its own thread, rather than continue to fill up the "no big deal" one.

CadBane · 02-13-2010, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I think it's about time our long-winded discussion on this substantial rumor finally earned its own thread, rather than continue to fill up the "no big deal" one.

The mods are going to cyber rape you.

Dim499 · 02-13-2010, 06:26 AM

Not a huge Caron Butler fan. He's a guy that can be shut down easily.

sefant77 · 02-13-2010, 07:01 AM

Dont jinx it.

Should wait until monday with that trade.

Dtownsfinest · 02-13-2010, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dim499

Not a huge Caron Butler fan. He's a guy that can be shut down easily.

Me either. I don't see the purpose of just trading for Butler. He can help no doubt but i'm not sure I want any part of a Wiz trade unless it involved a big like Haywood.

LonghornDub · 02-13-2010, 08:12 AM

It's weird because I bagged a lot on the guy when he first came here, but I'd actually be a little disappointed to lose Gooden. He's a damn bonehead, but he's brought certain things to the table that I think have been pretty crucial to the Mavs halfway decent record thus far. Haywood's good, though.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-13-2010, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It's weird because I bagged a lot on the guy when he first came here, but I'd actually be a little disappointed to lose Gooden. He's a damn bonehead, but he's brought certain things to the table that I think have been pretty crucial to the Mavs halfway decent record thus far. Haywood's good, though.

I'll admit, I've never been a fan of Gooden's game, but I like his hustle and athleticism. Can't say I'll miss him very much though.

Underdog · 02-13-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It's weird because I bagged a lot on the guy when he first came here, but I'd actually be a little disappointed to lose Gooden. He's a damn bonehead, but he's brought certain things to the table that I think have been pretty crucial to the Mavs halfway decent record thus far. Haywood's good, though.

Haywood: 7'0" / 9.8 PPG / 10.3 RPG / 2.1 BPG
Gooden: 6'10" / 8.9 PPG / 6.9 RPG / 1.1 BPG

We "lose" nothing in this deal...

(not that Gooden wasn't crucial to our early-season success, but he isn't necessary going forward.)

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 09:12 AM

I certainly wouldn't say Gooden has been crucial to our early season success. He's been much better lately, which why I've stopped crucifying him. But his on court numbers are still bad. The team is still awful defensively when he's on the court. That's not all his fault, the Mavs simply can't function very well without a rim defender.

As I said in the other thread, I'll be fine if Gooden is bought and and re-signed to be a situational player, but I'm not spending a second worrying about losing Gooden when Brendan Haywood is coming back.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 09:13 AM

BTW, I don't really know what to do with this thread. Normally I would agree that the Butler thing deserves its own thread, but we already spent all day talking about it in the other thread.

I guess I'll just let it work itself out.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-13-2010, 09:17 AM

We'll just make this the Gooden thread. Bye bye Gooden. There. Thread finished.

Underdog · 02-13-2010, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I certainly wouldn't say Gooden has been crucial to our early season success.

He was when Damp was out.

(and that's about all the argument you'll get from me on the topic of Gooden's usefulness...)

DubOverdose · 02-13-2010, 09:40 AM

I gotta say that I love this trade if it goes through. We're not getting anything out of Josh this year and Gooden, although he plays hard, is TERRIBLE for our D. I think we're winning this trade. We gotta be ready for Josh to have a revival in DC though.

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 09:40 AM

We will miss his energy I believe...He was one of the few who really did bring it every night, really surprising professional.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-13-2010, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

We will miss his energy I believe...He was one of the few who really did bring it every night, really surprising professional.

I have to admit that his energy has surprised me too, because the guy always sort of struck me as an underachiever in Cleveland and San Antonio. Turns out he's just not that good at basketball.

bobatundi · 02-13-2010, 09:49 AM

From 82games.com:

Player Simple rating
Haywood +4.5
Butler +4.2
Howard -3.9
Gooden -7.1

Based on these numbers, we should be much improved by such a deal.

mavsfan1000 · 02-13-2010, 10:05 AM

Gooden just isn't a good fit on this team. His defense is horrible and he doesn't like to pass much. Also he doesn't set much picks and isn't good for a free flowing offense. He makes up for it somewhat by his hustle and occasional big games.

aexchange · 02-13-2010, 10:16 AM

Looks like its a done deal.

Mavericks reach tentative deal to trade Howard, Gooden for Wizards' Caron Butler, Haywood
03:59 AM CST on Saturday, February 13, 2010

Josh Howard's tenure with the Mavericks, which began with quality production but eroded into inconsistency and controversy, is coming to an end.

The Mavericks have reached a tentative agreement to send Howard, Drew Gooden and two other players to Washington for swingman Caron Butler, center Brendan Haywood and guard DeShawn Stevenson, numerous NBA sources said Friday.

Though the deal still needs league approval, both sides have agreed on the moving parts in a trade that will cost the Mavericks more money but also brings them more talent, at least in the short run.

Butler is under contract through next season, at a cost of more than $10.5 million. He figures to slide into the role that Howard was playing, although he also could end up starting if Jason Terry is moved back to the sixth-man role.

Haywood, who is averaging 9.8 points and 10.3 rebounds, is in the final season of his contract, which pays him $6 million. The Mavericks will face the decision of re-signing him in the summer.

Stevenson has been a bit player for the Wizards and is under contract through 2010-11 at $4.1 million.

The Mavericks will be sending James Singleton and Quinton Ross along with Gooden and Howard, who has had a wild 6 ½ seasons with the Mavericks.

He was an All-Star in 2007, when he averaged 18.9 points in 70 games. But that was about the time his troubles began. He admitted during the playoffs that season to using marijuana in the off-season. During that summer, he was caught on someone's cell phone video at a charity flag football game disrespecting the national anthem. This season, Howard has struggled to regain his form after ankle surgery in the summer. He has averaged 12.5 points and 3.6 rebounds, although he had begun to pick up his play in the last few games before the All-Star break.

Gooden has been a valuable asset in relief of Erick Dampier, but his $4.5 million salary was needed to make the trade work under NBA guidelines.

As word filtered out Friday that the deal was essentially done, several experts believe it is a good, aggressive deal by the Mavericks.

"It's a great trade for the Mavericks," said TNT analyst Charles Barkley. "They're going to be happy with Caron Butler. He's going to be really good with Jason Kidd."

Added NBA TV analyst Steve Smith: "They weren't going anywhere the way they were. It's going to make them better. Butler needed to get out of Washington."

Butler, 29, is averaging 16.9 points, down from his 20.8 average of last season. But he also grabs 6.7 rebounds this season. The thinking is that he was not a good fit with coach Flip Saunders' style in Washington.

Haywood is a 7-footer who averages 2.1 blocks per game and shoots better than 56 percent from the field this season.

The thinking is that the Wizards may use either Singleton or Ross, or perhaps both, to facilitate another trade.

The Mavericks, meanwhile, will have 13 players under contract, giving them space to sign another player if one is waived or they have their eye on somebody from the NBA Development League.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-13-2010, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Gooden just isn't a good fit on this team. His defense is horrible and he doesn't like to pass much. Also he doesn't set much picks and isn't good for a free flowing offense. He makes up for it somewhat by his hustle and occasional big games.

You're exaggerating. Gooden's man defense is very solid. His help side isn't because he isn't a true center. This is kinda a crappy situation for him because perimeter players on this team (and many other teams) can't keep their guys in check. Haywood will be a much better help defender when Terry/Kidd/Butler can't guard their guy.

Bayliss · 02-13-2010, 10:19 AM

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-13-2010, 10:30 AM

Weed prices plummet....

Thespiralgoeson · 02-13-2010, 10:33 AM

It's not Iguodala, but I'll certainly take it. I still don't think Butler is a good fit for the roster, but it's a solid move in every aspect.

On a different note, it's really sad to see what Howard has become. I remember from '05 to '07, I couldn't even imagine the Mavs trading him. Now we all can't wait to be rid of him.

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I have to admit that his energy has surprised me too, because the guy always sort of struck me as an underachiever in Cleveland and San Antonio. Turns out he's just not that good at basketball.

Harsh...funny and probably true...but harsh.

mavsfan1000 · 02-13-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You're exaggerating Gooden's man defense is very solid. His help side isn't because he isn't a true center. This is kinda a crappy situation for him because perimeter players on this team (and many other teams) can't keep their guys in check. Haywood will be a much better help defender when Terry/Kidd/Butler can't guard their guy.

Yes and that is what makes him such a bad fit here a long with his me-first offense. This team needs players that are willing to pass more and get good ball movement. Pairing up Gooden with Dirk on defense was just horrible help defense. Terry and Kidd on on man-to-man defense was horrible to. It's definitely a problem. One of those players need to be moved to the bench. My dream lineup would be Beaubois, Butler, Marion, Nowitzki, and Haywood for this team.

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 10:35 AM

Ugh..Barkley likes it, it's got disaster written all over it.

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yes and that is what makes him such a bad fit here a long with his me-first offense. This team needs players that are willing to pass more and get good ball movement. Pairing up Gooden with Dirk on defense was just horrible help defense. Terry and Kidd on on man-to-man defense was horrible to. It's definitely a problem. One of those players need to be moved to the bench. My dream lineup would be Beaubois, Butler, Marion, Nowitzki, and Haywood for this team.

I agree..but he just may not have had the ability to do so, you may not have been disparaging him but it sort of looks like you were saying he's selfish.

This is one reason I was more interested in Andre than Caron because I would rather have a better passer in that position, we'll see. We've even missed stackhouse imo from that position because even though he might have turned it over he was a pretty instincitive passer on the team, we've missed that for a while. Jet/Josh sure didn't have it.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I agree..but he just may not have had the ability to do so, you may not have been disparaging him but it sort of looks like you were saying he's selfish.

This is one reason I was more interested in Andre than Caron because I would rather have a better passer in that position, we'll see. We've even missed stackhouse imo from that position because even though he might have turned it over he was a pretty instincitive passer on the team, we've missed that for a while. Jet/Josh sure didn't have it.

Historically Butler has been a fine passer from the swing position. I wouldn't discount his passing ability until we see how everything fits together and how he performs in this offense.

One thing people need to keep in mind...the last time we acquired a scorer anywhere near the level of Caron Butler was Jason Terry. And Jason Terry's efficiency went through the freaking roof once he started playing with Dirk.

Butler is a little different because he's more of an iso guy than a catch and shoot guy, but I'm excited to see what happens to him playing next to Dirk and Kidd.

G-Man · 02-13-2010, 11:29 AM

The Mavs plans this season depended on Howard coming in and playing the 2, but with his bum ankle, he had nowhere near the quickness needed to do that job. The Mavs needed him to score his average, and he's just not physically able to.

Caron Butler gives the offense what it desperately needs...a guy who can fill it up, who wants to take the big shot just as much as Dirk and Jet do. A Guy when he has it going, can demand the double team. If Jet goes back to 6th man, we should always have 2 dangerous scorers on the court. The offense is instantly better.

With Haywood big enough to be a starting center, Damp can get the time to rest and rehab his knee. He'll be a much better fit than Gooden, because he's a real 7 footer who can block some shots and protect the lane. Gooden turned out to be a better player thn I expected, but better at stuff we don't need as much...like scoring. If we can resign him cheap, I'd love to have him, but Haywood is a massive upgrade because he fits better. Hopefully, he's quick enough to run with Nene, and has good enough footwork to contend with that kid in LA.

The only bad thing about this is how much it cost Cuban. But as a ticket buying fan, I'm spending my money, so I have no trouble watching him spend his.

Oh yeah. and how does this help us guard point guards?

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 11:34 AM

BTW, just to confirm what the DMN has said, Fish says the deal is done, and the official word will come down Monday.

He's on 103.3 right now if you'd like to listen to him discuss the trade. Probably nothing we haven't already read.

DubOverdose · 02-13-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yes and that is what makes him such a bad fit here a long with his me-first offense. This team needs players that are willing to pass more and get good ball movement. Pairing up Gooden with Dirk on defense was just horrible help defense. Terry and Kidd on on man-to-man defense was horrible to. It's definitely a problem. One of those players need to be moved to the bench. My dream lineup would be Beaubois, Butler, Marion, Nowitzki, and Haywood for this team.

I'd disagree with you on Gooden's weakness being his me-first attitude. Many times when I watch this team this season, nobody wants to take a shot. When people do take a shot, they don't have confidence in it. Gooden was the only one, outside of Dirk, that seemed to have the right attitude. He was the only other player that wasn't scared to shoot.

sike · 02-13-2010, 11:40 AM

I feel at least a little justified by saying that Gooden would bring tons of hustle to the Mavs...I got blasted by some of you chumps for saying that. Now you can all suck it.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I feel at least a little justified by saying that Gooden would bring tons of hustle to the Mavs...I got blasted by some of you chumps for saying that. Now you can all suck it.

Yeah, he brought more hustle than I expected. No doubt.

But I feel justified in my claims that he wasn't a good fit and wouldn't help very much.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 11:49 AM

Fish is saying that it's Josh, Gooden and Ross (didn't mention Singleton).

He also says everything he's heard is that the Trade Exception is being used to take back further salary from Washington.

He also says that Damp's knee is very troublesome. Doesn't sound like his Mavs sources think Damp is going to get healthy just from the all star break. He says Haywood could quickly turn Damp into a limited minutes backup while the team tries to get him healthy.

He's talking about the shooting guard situation now. I'll recap when he's finished.

sike · 02-13-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

He's talking about the shooting guard situation now. I'll recap when he's finished.

The stuff on JT wanting to start...is interesting.

sike · 02-13-2010, 11:53 AM

Fish: "Carlisle simply couldn't reach Josh Howard"

Mavs players are happy with the deal.

Fish still thinks the Mavs will be players in the summer...

aexchange · 02-13-2010, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Fish is saying that it's Josh, Gooden and Ross (didn't mention Singleton).

He also says everything he's heard is that the Trade Exception is being used to take back further salary from Washington.

He also says that Damp's knee is very troublesome. Doesn't sound like his Mavs sources think Damp is going to get healthy just from the all star break. He says Haywood could quickly turn Damp into a limited minutes backup while the team tries to get him healthy.

He's talking about the shooting guard situation now. I'll recap when he's finished.

I'm hoping that the TE will be used to pick up Blatche or McGee. We need bigs ... badly.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

The stuff on JT wanting to start...is interesting.

Not really surprising, at least to me.

For those that couldn't listen:

Fish think Caron might come off the bench, at least initially. Mainly because Jet thinks starting is what brought him out of his slump. But Fish says Caron is clearly going to be on the floor to finish games.

I've been pondering rotations, and I think Caron coming off the bench actually works best anyway, mainly because I want Jet playing most of his minutes with Marion.

With Caron coming off the bench, he can come in for any of Dirk, Marion or Terry and the rotation still works.

My one fear is Carlisle falling into the trap of playing Caron AND Jet to finish games, at the expense of Marion. There are some match ups where I think that makes sense (mainly teams without big offensive threats on the wings) but that needs to be a very rare occasion.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

I'm hoping that the TE will be used to pick up Blatche or McGee. We need bigs ... badly.

I'd be shocked if it was Blatche. He has two years left on his deal after this year and I imagine Washington still likes him anyway.

I'd somewhat less surprised if it was McGee.

I'd bet on Oberto, which wouldn't be horrible.