Butler/Haywood/Stevenson to the Mavs!! - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

badfish22 · 02-13-2010, 02:09 PM

I think we're just gonna explode after the break. Dirk will go back to MVP form.

It just hit me how great this trade is. If Kidd can make Damp score every now and again, imagine how good Haywood will be.

I wish Odom went to Miami........

grndmstr_c · 02-13-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowitzki4President

With Oberto: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=yh2nuwg

With McGee (Optional TE): http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=yz9cd4x

With Blatche: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=ykgwfs9

With Blatche, it gives to TE option.

Well, there's obviously a discrepancy between espn and realgm, because McGee does not fit on realgm. There's also a discrepancy between espn and db.com, since pretty much every story from db.com that's talked about using the TE in a Washington trade has mentioned Blatche as one of the possibles.

grndmstr_c · 02-13-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I imagine Dirk is quietly very pleased.

I believe I saw (in a dmn story?) that he issued a polite no-comment. I expect he's really, really not wanting to jinx this one.

sike · 02-13-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I believe I saw (in a dmn story?) that he issued a polite no-comment. I expect he's really, really not wanting to jinx this one.

bingo.

Janett_Reno · 02-13-2010, 02:20 PM

This should make us better on defense with Haywood and his 10 pts & 10 rebounds come in the paint. This is not forward play but center play. We always get caught up in the score if a center plays for us, Dampier. I am not knocking Gooden at all as i liked him but it is more like forward play. We just needed a physical 7 footer inside that is atleast a threat to score.

Kidd is a great passer & Dirk, Terry teams must defend as they can flat shoot. Plus teams can't sluff off our center thinking he won't score in the painted area, plus both centers can play defense at the rim. It can open Butler up even more & make him shine even more to be on a team that is talented as ours. Haywood will. I am excitted to know we have a chance now at the big picture. I feel we are now the team that jumps ahead of the Nugs when talks of who can "possibly" challenge the Lakers.

Underdog · 02-13-2010, 02:20 PM

fluid.forty.one · 02-13-2010, 02:22 PM

I'm getting too excited. This better not fall through.

As someone pointed out on Spurstalk.. getting resigning Kidd, Marion and Drafting Roddy.. now this. The FO has been pretty good lately (hopefully no jinx here).

and we still have the Dust chip.

ty · 02-13-2010, 02:32 PM

We love trading with the Wizards.

(!!!!!!)

fluid.forty.one · 02-13-2010, 02:38 PM

This trade also makes it a lot more bearable to use the Dust Chip (aka lose Damp the basketball player).

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think it has the potential to make us a lot better. Damp's injury is going largely unreported in the general media, but I really don't think I'm overstating things when I say that you can point to the time he started hobbling around and missing games as the time when our defense went to utter crap.

Yup...And I was also thinking about how it must play into the teams defenders psyche. So you are defending a guy that can hit a jumper as well as drive the ball. You know you don't have anyone behind you to help contest the shot so the guy is going to drive you every chance he gets, whaddya' do, why play off him as much as possible but then he starts killing you from outside, so you creep up and try to contest the shot harder(fouling them when they shouldn't be fouled many times). Tough in this NBA to not have any backside help, almost impossible really.

kg_veteran · 02-13-2010, 02:40 PM

I don't like the idea of Terry staying in the starting lineup. That is a signal to me that Terry will be on the court at the end of games instead of Marion.

It's been said, but the best part about the Haywood deal is that it allows Damp to rest his knee. In fact, I'm fine with Oberto coming back, because he could serve as the temporary backup C until Damp is ready to come back. The biggest key to playoff success other than having a true second scorer who can get his own shot (hopefully Butler fills that role) is to have 48 minutes of center play. Dampier/Haywood is going to be a FORCE in the paint at playoff time.

Dampier/Haywood 48
Nowitzki 38
Marion 36
Butler 38
Terry 32
Kidd 36
Beaubois 12

Looks like a pretty darn good 8 man playoff rotation to me.

jthig - Where's my new avatar?

aurelino9 · 02-13-2010, 02:43 PM

^^
The mavs were the second best team in the league with over 6 blocks per game but have now slipped to #7.

Nowitzki4President · 02-13-2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

This trade also makes it a lot more bearable to use the Dust Chip (aka lose Damp the basketball player).

I've been thinking about it as of late. I wouldn't be surprised if after the team he's traded to lets him go, he may retire. Getting Haywood would indeed make it more bearable. Although, we'd have to look for a backup 5.... Or maybe we move Damp for Kaman

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'd start Caron. Jet has found his stroke when he became a starter but I'd have no problem sending him back to the bench since he's proven that he can be just as productive in that role. We need Butler to hit the ground running and I'm not sure bringing him off the bench for the first time in his career would help that.

Plus we've become an awful defensive team the past month or so and, although he's not known for being much of a defender, Caron's size and ability to help on the defensive glass should help there.

I don't know...I could see him letting jet continue to start and have caron instead of jet finish. Again the finishing lineup is always interesting to me. If it's jkiddo/caron/shawn/dirk/heywood...does that have enough scoring or is it still challenged? Ending is always an issue. If Haywood could provide some sort of offensive presence taking jet off might work, then jkiddo/shawn become the spot up shooters...Shawn needs to break out that 3pt shot.

Janett_Reno · 02-13-2010, 02:46 PM

In the playoffs, it is hard to beat big & tall & defense. Especially at the rim. When Kobe & Shaq played the Pistons & got beat. It seemed to be a riff with Kobe & Shaq. I remember Kobe not passing & shooting alot of jumpers outside & Detroit was very physical on him if he ever came inside. The Lakers lost & alot felt Kobe outsided them out. Detroit & Kobe took the Lakers inside came away.

The same thing with Boston(When Boston beat them), Boston punched Gasol a few times & he said no way i am going in that paint. Either Bynum was hurt or he was soft also & Boston took the paint away from the Lakers, so Kobe just bombed & the Lakers lost. Odom is so talented but in the past, he has probs "at times" like Bynum & Gasol, soft. I'll admit all three have got better in this area and alot more self confidence in that painted area and tougher. I just feel this is the way to attack & beat the Lakers & make Kobe shoot from a distance. I agree with who said, i wish Odom had gone to Miami. They are hard to defend as they have so many but teams will have to defend Butler also & maybe our painted area on offense, will be better also with Haywood & i know our defense with him is better.

Dirk has to be happy we made a move. Denver may try to get another big man also & i think the Spurs let themselves get to old & banged up to make one or two players(trade) the difference on a fine tune for them to win. It won't happen this time for the Spurs.

kg_veteran · 02-13-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't know...I could see him letting jet continue to start and have caron instead of jet finish. Again the finishing lineup is always interesting to me. If it's jkiddo/caron/shawn/dirk/heywood...does that have enough scoring or is it still challenged? Ending is always an issue. If Haywood could provide some sort of offensive presence taking jet off might work, then jkiddo/shawn become the spot up shooters...Shawn needs to break out that 3pt shot.

It is weird that Marion's corner threes have completely disappeared. I think that'd be a nice weapon if he could hit those. Even if he can't, though, he needs to be on the floor at the end of games for defensive purposes. If he and Butler are on the floor at the end, I'm okay with Terry starting, I guess. Somehow, though, I don't think that will be the case...

dirno2000 · 02-13-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I don't like the idea of Terry staying in the starting lineup. That is a signal to me that Terry will be on the court at the end of games instead of Marion.

I don't think we need a signal for that. I'm fairly confident that for better or for worse Terry's going to be in the final five. That's how they've been able to sell him on coming off the bench for past couple of years.

sike · 02-13-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I don't think we need a signal for that. I'm fairly confident that for better or for worse Terry's going to be in the final five.

this is what I tend to think as well...the threat of the three might be too much to pass on for Carlisle. I think I might go with a situational line up...

dirt_dobber · 02-13-2010, 02:53 PM

I find it frustrating that a organization such as NBA offices will completly shut down
and have to wait for Monday to approve such a trade....

Can they not have a 5-7 man team of "suits & lawyers" work the weekend prior to
the all-star break? I understand not doing this 365 - but come on WORK just this
time of year......

I guess I am secretly fearful that some other team is going to swoop in and screw
this up......and we get hit in the gortats again....

kg_veteran · 02-13-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

this is what I tend to think as well...the threat of the three might be too much to pass on for Carlisle. I think I might go with a situational line up...

I would even settle for this compromise. Simply play the 2 guys who are going the best in that particular game. Obviously, Kidd, Dirk, and a center will always (*fingers crossed*) be out there.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-13-2010, 02:57 PM

Outbidding Houston is the cherry on top of this trade.

sike · 02-13-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I would even settle for this compromise. Simply play the 2 guys who are going the best in that particular game. Obviously, Kidd, Dirk, and a center will always (*fingers crossed*) be out there.

I'm good with that...but I do love what Marion can bring defensively. Why wouldn't you (Carlisle) ALWAYS want that out there? (Unless situationally you are needing the 3 perhaps)

I would probably want Kidd, Marion, Dirk, Haywood/Damp out there and JT or Butler as the situational choice.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I don't think we need a signal for that. I'm fairly confident that for better or for worse Terry's going to be in the final five. That's how they've been able to sell him on coming off the bench for past couple of years.

If the Mavs are truly looking for a real second scorer, then I don't understand why Terry would remain in the final (top) five man group by default.

As I said, there are match ups where Marion might not be needed, but by and large he needs to be on the floor during crunch time.

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

jthig - Where's my new avatar?

A: I'm not jinxing this thing. No new avatar until it's official.

B: I got nothing at this point.

tcat075 · 02-13-2010, 03:38 PM

Awesome!

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If the Mavs are truly looking for a real second scorer, then I don't understand why Terry would remain in the final (top) five man group by default.

As I said, there are match ups where Marion might not be needed, but by and large he needs to be on the floor during crunch time.

I agree...Hopefully Caron will bring the thing that jet just cannot and that is the ability to get into the lane and either get a fta or finish it without getting plastered on the ground. To jet's credit he's tried to take it in there but he's just tiny and not as crafty as nashie/jjb are so he tries to "power" it up, getting swatted like a fly many times.

Caron being so much more physical would probably get a lot more fta's.

sike · 02-13-2010, 03:43 PM

Nash and JJB just got mentioned as having something in common...poor Nash.

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 03:45 PM

So the question now is:
Is this deal better than the same players going out for Martin? In other words, only dampier at the C position?

Skywalker · 02-13-2010, 03:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgZfEV2ze5s

jthig32 · 02-13-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So the question now is:
Is this deal better than the same players going out for Martin? In other words, only dampier at the C position?

If Damp were fully healthy I would probably say no.

Given our current circumstances I think it's a better deal. It makes it an even better deal if they retain Haywood after this season.

sike · 02-13-2010, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So the question now is:
Is this deal better than the same players going out for Martin? In other words, only dampier at the C position?

this adds more to the Mavs for the Now...who knows about the later...

grndmstr_c · 02-13-2010, 03:50 PM

I can see good points on both sides of the who-starts debate.

With JET, you can argue that his shooting would be missed, and his offensive game has definitely been clicking of late (around 20 ppg on 60% true shooting with 5 apg over the last ten games) so maybe you don't want to do anything that will disrupt that.

As for Caron, while he doesn't have the range on his jumper that JET does, Kidd's turned into a pretty deadly outside shooter, and Dirk will always command respect even though his 3pt% is down. Combine that with Caron's passing ability and the size advantage that he would frequently enjoy at the start of games in a big lineup and you have the makings of an unorthodox but effective inside-out offensive approach that makes liberal use of Caron as a post player. It'd change the balance of Dallas' early scoring in a way that I think Carlisle would appreciate (thinking back to his Indiana days). The rebounding gain going from JET to Caron would also be substantial. And, as has been noted, starting Caron may be important in terms of getting him comfortable.

I don't think defensive concerns figure into the equation too much, since neither guy makes his money on that side of the ball, and in any case the defensive presence of Haywood figures to be by far the biggest difference-maker on that end of the court.

All that said, I'm pretty strongly in favor of a Kidd/Caron/Marion/Dirk/Haywood starting lineup. The bump to the rebounding and inside scoring, and ultimately the importance of maximizing Caron's abilities from the get go, trump JET's recent run of scoring success in my mind.

sike · 02-13-2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

All that said, I'm pretty strongly in favor of a Kidd/Caron/Marion/Dirk/Haywood starting lineup. The bump to the rebounding and inside scoring, and ultimately the importance of maximizing Caron's abilities from the get go, trump JET's recent run of scoring success in my mind.

couldn't agree more...then again, when JT is on one of those hot streaks, all bets should be off.

spreedom · 02-13-2010, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So the question now is:
Is this deal better than the same players going out for Martin? In other words, only dampier at the C position?

I'd take the Washington deal over Sacramento 10 times out of 10. Not only are we getting excellent depth (have we ever had a 5-spot rotation better than Damp/Haywood?) and to be honest, a bigger difference maker in Butler. Don't get me wrong, Martin is a great shooter, but his game is incredibly limited and a deal like that would further expose our deficiencies rather than help to erase them.

If Martin has a cold streak (say a 7 or 8 game streak where he has 5-for-17 games and such) we STINK. If Butler has the same cold streak, he can still contribute as a passer, rebounder, and defensive player. Sure, he isn't a traditional two-guard, but he can also help us match up with Denver and LA (whereas Martin makes us even worse against them considering the depth we'd sacrifice). He can guard any variety of guys including Melo, Kenyon Martin, Billups, Kobe, Artest, and Odom. Isn't that defensive versatility going to be more important to us than a pure shooter who hasn't ever performed in the playoffs or defended anyone?

And almost all of this is outside of the fact that we're getting the best center we've ever had in Haywood. AND the fact that Butler and Haywood both have awesome contracts.

dude1394 · 02-13-2010, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Nash and JJB just got mentioned as having something in common...poor Nash.

Harsh...funny...but harsh.

mavsfan1000 · 02-13-2010, 03:59 PM

Butler should definitely be starting at the 2 imo. As mentioned already, we need to match up better with the Lakers. Terry/Kidd can't guard Kobe or Artest. Butler can and he can score right back at them. This team is going to be awesome now. I'll hold off on the Carlisle firing. lol

sike · 02-13-2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

I'll hold off on the Carlisle firing. lol

whew...good to hear you took your finger off the button.

Popeye · 02-13-2010, 04:01 PM

Start Butler and bring Marion off the bench. Kidd/Jet/Butler/Dirk/Haywood. Marion can backup Butler and Dirk. Jet and Butler are offensive players that need rythm.

mavsfan1000 · 02-13-2010, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

Start Butler and bring Marion off the bench. Kidd/Jet/Butler/Dirk/Haywood. Marion can backup Butler and Dirk. Jet and Butler are offensive players that need rythm.

True but Terry is just too poor defensively to start imo. We'll definitely see that lineup though. Marion is needed against Kobe/Melo as well.

grndmstr_c · 02-13-2010, 04:06 PM

Marion is at least as good a defensive player as JET or Caron are offensive players. I want him on the floor to start games. Matchups and a who's-hot-who's-not approach can then determine how you finish games.