JJB Sucks - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Bayliss · 11-04-2010, 08:05 PM

Well, since others don't want it to interfere with the gameday threads. Might as well start one.

Charlotte:
8 points (4-9 FG)
4 rebounds
1 assist
3 turnovers
2 steals
-19 +/-

Memphis
7 points (2-5 FG)
2 rebounds
4 assists
2 turnovers
1 steal
+2 +/-

Clippers
5 points (2-6 FG)
2 rebounds
3 assists
2 turnovers
0 steals
-10 +/-

Denver
9 points (3-5 FG)
0 rebounds
0 assists
3 turnovers
0 steals
-4 +/-

Cthulhu · 11-04-2010, 09:29 PM

Plus/minus means nothing! He played a fantastic game last night. Point guards don't need to have assists. Turnovers are part of his game and he is great at drawing charges! The JJB hate is ridiculous. What do you expect? Someone to not dribble the ball for 20 seconds and proceed to turn it over? He's a backup PG, all backup PG's are massive liabilities on both ends of the court.

FINtastic · 11-04-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Plus/minus means nothing! He played a fantastic game last night. Point guards don't need to have assists. Turnovers are part of his game and he is great at drawing charges! The JJB hate is ridiculous. What do you expect? Someone to not dribble the ball for 20 seconds and proceed to turn it over? He's a backup PG, all backup PG's are massive liabilities on both ends of the court.

You gotta give CadBane credit here - he's nothing if not persistent. Even the mod banhammer can't hold him down.

ribosoma · 11-04-2010, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

You gotta give CadBane credit here - he's nothing if not persistent. Even the mod banhammer can't hold him down.

I really dug the new name, but he is drawn to anti-JJB posts like flies to poo. He just can't stop himself. What a complete psycho.

That aside (

), most backup points in the league are liabilities on both ends of the floor. Down the road, I think the backup point dilemma here will work itself out with DoJo or RoBo, and I imagine we will only see JJB in manageable spurts off the bench in garbage time to save minutes. Or we may package him in a deal to a team with a need for him. Who knows?

Popeye · 11-04-2010, 10:17 PM

Carlisle has an insane infatuation with the guy and can't help but play him. It's honestly getting to the point where the front office needs to trade him just to save the coach from himself.

Does anyone want to bet that Najera would still be getting all the backup PF minutes if he was still here?

Popeye · 11-04-2010, 10:17 PM

Carlisle has an insane infatuation with the guy and can't help but play him. It's honestly getting to the point where the front office needs to trade him just to save the coach from himself.

Does anyone want to bet that Najera would still be getting all the backup PF minutes if he was still here?

dude1394 · 11-04-2010, 10:24 PM

I also think that jjb is playing way out of control. For all of the good things he did last night, his turnovers were unforced and seemed to turn into scores the other way.

IMO however he needs some coaching up from the coaching staff. I believe they are telling him to do just what he's doing...they even throw him out there with jkiddo playing the penetrating shooting guard...

Possibly when roddy comes back they can at least stop that and have the luxury of telling him to play point only. He's going to be a defensive liability but I see no reason why he cannot play an adequate point, I've seen him do it.

dude1394 · 11-04-2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

Carlisle has an insane infatuation with the guy and can't help but play him. It's honestly getting to the point where the front office needs to trade him just to save the coach from himself.

Does anyone want to bet that Najera would still be getting all the backup PF minutes if he was still here?

Carlisle doesn't have much of a choice imo. JJB is the only other point on the team.

LonghornDub · 11-04-2010, 11:28 PM

Here's the thing that bothers me about the constant JJB hate--

I'm still not sure anybody's ever established why JJB doesn't essentially meet the standard that an 8th or so man on non-Lakers-stacked team should meet. It's all "he can't play defense" or "he makes bad plays for every good one." Fine. Let's assume all that's true. I'm still not convinced that it (or some equivalent) isn't also true for the 8th man on, like, 27 or 28 other NBA teams.

Spurred1 · 11-05-2010, 01:18 AM

So is this the "official" anti-JJB thread? Just want to verify this, although I'm pretty neutral on this subject.
Yeah, he presents some problems, but he can't help that RC plays him significant minutes. But maybe it is a coaching situation, as suggested earlier. Maybe he's just being told to do his thing and nobody's really reeling him in or being specific enough. I haven't seen enough this season to know one way or the other.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-05-2010, 01:55 AM

Dibs on creating the appreciation thread when he finally leaves.

twelli · 11-05-2010, 02:16 AM

All Barea has to do to shut up his haters is make those open threes, finish those drives into the paint without being blocked, and give the ball to Dirk if he runs out of ideas on offense.

Having said that, even if he plays flawless, they will be fans complaining, if not about him then about someone else. Has always been this way. Bradley, Walker, Stackhouse, Avery, there's always one to hate, even if the Mavs win +50 games each season for 12 or how many years in a row. Pathetic.

mac222b · 11-05-2010, 02:20 AM

i'm no fan of JJB by any stretch but he does serve some purpose, at least until Roddy's back- 1)he can dribble the ball up the floor 2) he can occasionally beat his man off the dribble.
this team is sorely lacking in players that can do these two things. therefore JJb plays.

watched Portland/OKC tonight. good game. two good teams. would kill to have a Wes Matthews or Serge Ibaka off the bench on this team. have a feeling DoJo and Mahinmi are not it. this team needs to acquire some depth or it will be running Dirk&Kidd into the ground time all over again.

cinemablend · 11-05-2010, 02:48 AM

I understand why JJB is on the floor when Kidd is not. I get it. Right now the Mavs don't really have a lot of other options. I still say they would be better off with JET but I can accept that maybe JJB is the only way to go at backup PG.

What I do not understand and cannot accept is why every single game he spends significant minutes on the floor WITH Kidd playing Shooting Guard.

That just makes NO sense. They'd be better off with Stephenson out there (by the way, what happened to him??) than JJB at SG with Kidd. It's ridiculous... and proof that Carlisle remains completely blind to Barea's limitations.

rabbitproof · 11-05-2010, 08:49 AM

I think the hope is to be amongst the likes Miami/LA/Orlando/Boston.. as opposed to Atlanta/Utah/Portland..

That's why he stands out. That's why he's reviled. If he is an 8th man, you're not winning a championship. He may pass as a 9th (hurry back Roddy) and would be good as a 10th.

41mvp · 11-05-2010, 09:54 AM

He isn't good PG.We have big problem with him.

LonghornDub · 11-05-2010, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I think the hope is to be amongst the likes Miami/LA/Orlando/Boston.. as opposed to Atlanta/Utah/Portland..

That's why he stands out. That's why he's reviled. If he is an 8th man, you're not winning a championship. He may pass as a 9th (hurry back Roddy) and would be good as a 10th.

Ok, but that still doesn't really answer my question. Who is the 8th best player on those teams? Does that guy not have substantial weaknesses in his game?

dude1394 · 11-05-2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemablend

I understand why JJB is on the floor when Kidd is not. I get it. Right now the Mavs don't really have a lot of other options. I still say they would be better off with JET but I can accept that maybe JJB is the only way to go at backup PG.

What I do not understand and cannot accept is why every single game he spends significant minutes on the floor WITH Kidd playing Shooting Guard.

That just makes NO sense. They'd be better off with Stephenson out there (by the way, what happened to him??) than JJB at SG with Kidd. It's ridiculous... and proof that Carlisle remains completely blind to Barea's limitations.

I disagree about stevenson...The mavs really have three shooting guards at the moment. jet, jjb, dj..Dj is not so good. So until they get another guy in there jjb has to play both point and sg.

Funkman · 11-05-2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Well, since others don't want it to interfere with the gameday threads. Might as well start one.

Charlotte:
8 points (4-9 FG)
4 rebounds
1 assist
3 turnovers
2 steals
-19 +/-

Memphis
7 points (2-5 FG)
2 rebounds
4 assists
2 turnovers
1 steal
+2 +/-

Clippers
5 points (2-6 FG)
2 rebounds
3 assists
2 turnovers
0 steals
-10 +/-

Denver
9 points (3-5 FG)
0 rebounds
0 assists
3 turnovers
0 steals
-4 +/-

So according to this, if JJ has a positive plus/minus, Mavs lose. So wouldn't it be in the team's best interest for him to keep sucking?

SMC0007 · 11-05-2010, 11:42 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDCP3...eature=related

41mvp · 11-05-2010, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDCP3...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFjuP...eature=related
this is better

rabbitproof · 11-05-2010, 04:03 PM

The upper-tier teams have #8 guys who are pretty good. They have weaknesses, which is why they are #8 players, but JJB's problem may be that his weaknesses are so glaring (height, defense). Going by minutes played, the #8s for Miami/Boston/LA/Orlando are like Joel Anthony, Quisy, Steve Blake and Gortat respectively.

JJB would be the weakest player out of the bunch in my estimation. Like Dallas with Roddy, those #8s are possibly really #9s depending on how/when Mike Miller, Delonte West, Andrew Bynum, etc. play.

If we compare to the 2nd/3rd tier teams, JJB as #8/#9 is fine though.

LonghornDub · 11-05-2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

The upper-tier teams have #8 guys who are pretty good. They have weaknesses, which is why they are #8 players, but JJB's problem may be that his weaknesses are so glaring (height, defense). Going by minutes played, the #8s for Miami/Boston/LA/Orlando are like Joel Anthony, Quisy, Steve Blake and Gortat respectively.

JJB would be the weakest player out of the bunch in my estimation. Like Dallas with Roddy, those #8s are possibly really #9s depending on how/when Mike Miller, Delonte West, Andrew Bynum, etc. play.

If we compare to the 2nd/3rd tier teams, JJB as #8/#9 is fine though.

Appreciate the response. Two things.

First, I'm still not really convinced that JJB is worse overall than any of those four guys you listed. They all have some pretty glaring weaknesses, even if they're not apparent from just their physical profile (unlike JJB). I find it much more likely that this is just another case of us as Mavs fans being more attuned to JJB's weaknesses than the other guys', because we watch every Mavs game and pay close attention to these things.

I'm not saying I'm convinced that JJB is equal to those guys, but I really just don't know. I think it's a debatable question, which leads me to believe that the immense amount of JJB hate is misplaced. The level of hate here would lead you to believe that he's unquestionably inferior to all of those #8 guys (and others in the league), which I really don't think is true.

Second, I think it's important to note, like you said, that he's probably as good as or better than the #8 guy on 2nd or 3rd tier teams. That means he's better than the #8 on most NBA teams. That's significant.

On the one hand, I totally get that we're trying to be in that top tier and not just "better than most" of the NBA. So it makes sense to want our #8 guy to be as good or better than the Lakers/Heat/Celtics/etc. But at the same time, even if we assume that he's worse than the #8 on those squads, that doesn't necessarily mean we're in a bad spot relative to those teams. It could just be a function of how the talent is distributed throughout each team's roster. For example, I'd argue that our #5 guy is better (and higher paid) than the Heat's #5 guy.

In short, I think you really have to look at JJB's abilities in the context of where he sits on the roster. I absolutely don't like him starting or playing 25+ mpg. But that's a coaching decision more than a JJB problem. And nobody's ever really sold me on the idea that he's not quite productive for the spot he occupies.

Bayliss · 11-05-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:

So according to this, if JJ has a positive plus/minus, Mavs lose. So wouldn't it be in the team's best interest for him to keep sucking?

Well, if you want Jason Kidd to be worn out by the time the playoffs start, sure.

Bayliss · 11-05-2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

First, I'm still not really convinced that JJB is worse overall than any of those four guys you listed. They all have some pretty glaring weaknesses, even if they're not apparent from just their physical profile (unlike JJB). I find it much more likely that this is just another case of us as Mavs fans being more attuned to JJB's weaknesses than the other guys', because we watch every Mavs game and pay close attention to these things.

The difference though is I guarantee you that Spolsta (or Riley) will not play Joel Anthony significant minutes in the playoffs. The same with Boston and Quis. The same with Orlando and Gortat. Blake will because they brought him in to do it.

But Barea will perhaps play major minutes in the playoffs.

LonghornDub · 11-05-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

The difference though is I guarantee you that Spolsta (or Riley) will not play Joel Anthony significant minutes in the playoffs. The same with Boston and Quis. The same with Orlando and Gortat. Blake will because they brought him in to do it.

But Barea will perhaps play major minutes in the playoffs.

Well I'm not at all sure that he'll play "major minutes" in the playoffs, but even if that happens, that's really more of a Carlisle issue or a roster-breakdown issue than a Barea issue. Which is exactly my point in the first place.

FINtastic · 11-05-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

The difference though is I guarantee you that Spolsta (or Riley) will not play Joel Anthony significant minutes in the playoffs. The same with Boston and Quis. The same with Orlando and Gortat. Blake will because they brought him in to do it.

But Barea will perhaps play major minutes in the playoffs.

I don't know why you think Joel Anthony isn't getting minutes in the playoffs. If the Heat were to bench him, that means they are going to have to roll with Haslem and Big Z at center for 48 minutes (and this is in addition to the 10 minutes that Haslem will spend backing up Bosh).

rabbitproof · 11-05-2010, 05:43 PM

Always glad to get in a chitchat here.

It's all fairly subjective as to who is better or worse but for my money, salary aside, I think those guys would fetch a higher draft pick than JJB. Also, not that the NBA is the most efficient market, I believe they all make more than JJB.

To be exact, I said his talent is fine as a #8/#9, not that he's as good or better than most comparable #8s. I think he's average and probably closer to a #9. Just looked at Denver and JR Smith is their #8 (they are also missing KMart so somebody's not a true #8 there). To me, #8s are players who play a significant role during the season and contribute in the playoffs and JJB is a kick below that level for a championship team.

That aside, JJB has his place as a #9 slash 10-12mpg kind of guy.. though he'd also probably be a better #9 else where because with him, 3 of our top four players at the 1/2 are <6-2. He's a good bit player but in a weird place of being over-used as well as having his talent set be relatively duplicable on our team. That's probably more of a nod to the front office and coaches than JJB, as you said, and what probably gets him whippingboy status.

I don't really hate on JJB during the games and I've always said that if JJB was 6 inches taller, he'd be a starting PG somewhere in the league. I just can't wait to see his minutes and his role go down a level as we get talent back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Appreciate the response. Two things.

First, I'm still not really convinced that JJB is worse overall than any of those four guys you listed. They all have some pretty glaring weaknesses, even if they're not apparent from just their physical profile (unlike JJB). I find it much more likely that this is just another case of us as Mavs fans being more attuned to JJB's weaknesses than the other guys', because we watch every Mavs game and pay close attention to these things.

I'm not saying I'm convinced that JJB is equal to those guys, but I really just don't know. I think it's a debatable question, which leads me to believe that the immense amount of JJB hate is misplaced. The level of hate here would lead you to believe that he's unquestionably inferior to all of those #8 guys (and others in the league), which I really don't think is true.

Second, I think it's important to note, like you said, that he's probably as good as or better than the #8 guy on 2nd or 3rd tier teams. That means he's better than the #8 on most NBA teams. That's significant.

On the one hand, I totally get that we're trying to be in that top tier and not just "better than most" of the NBA. So it makes sense to want our #8 guy to be as good or better than the Lakers/Heat/Celtics/etc. But at the same time, even if we assume that he's worse than the #8 on those squads, that doesn't necessarily mean we're in a bad spot relative to those teams. It could just be a function of how the talent is distributed throughout each team's roster. For example, I'd argue that our #5 guy is better (and higher paid) than the Heat's #5 guy.

In short, I think you really have to look at JJB's abilities in the context of where he sits on the roster. I absolutely don't like him starting or playing 25+ mpg. But that's a coaching decision more than a JJB problem. And nobody's ever really sold me on the idea that he's not quite productive for the spot he occupies.

danomano · 11-05-2010, 07:31 PM

imo, it's not RC's fault, the mavs have a below avg group of guards, he stuck with an old kidd, jet s/b a bench player, etc. the don't even have a guard that s/b a starter except maybe roddy...roddy better turn out to be something special or the mavs are sunk

i'm not a fan of JJB, but he actually better that i thought he could be...when the mavs have to depend on JJB as much as they do, that should tell you all you need to know about how much trouble the mavs are in...

Bayliss · 11-05-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

I don't know why you think Joel Anthony isn't getting minutes in the playoffs. If the Heat were to bench him, that means they are going to have to roll with Haslem and Big Z at center for 48 minutes (and this is in addition to the 10 minutes that Haslem will spend backing up Bosh).

And I said Anthony would not get significant minutes. He won't be a factor for their team at all. Negative or positive because he will play maybe 10 minutes a game in the playoffs.

JJB on the other hand could easily play twice that much, as evidenced the last two years.

Popeye · 11-05-2010, 10:10 PM

Disagree that there aren't any better options right now. Put in Dojo or Terry at the point.

FINtastic · 11-05-2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

And I said Anthony would not get significant minutes. He won't be a factor for their team at all. Negative or positive because he will play maybe 10 minutes a game in the playoffs.

JJB on the other hand could easily play twice that much, as evidenced the last two years.

Barring some unforeseen trade or injury, I feel pretty certain that Anthony will be getting more minutes per game in the playoffs than Barea.

Bayliss · 11-06-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Barring some unforeseen trade or injury, I feel pretty certain that Anthony will be getting more minutes per game in the playoffs than Barea.

And I feel pretty certain that Carlisle won't sit his favorite spark plug on the bench either.

Btw, last night was pretty evident (IMO) of how the Heat are going to go in the playoffs. Anthony got 14 minutes. Most in the first quarter. When Spolstra saw it was awful, he took him out and he literally did not play again. Z/Bosh/Haslem played the rest of the game as the PF/C.

Had they not played him in the first Miami would have caught up a lot sooner. They didn't take their first lead until 1 minute left in the game.

jthig32 · 11-06-2010, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

Disagree that there aren't any better options right now. Put in Dojo or Terry at the point.

Terry's already playing 35 minutes a game. If you want him to run the point then you're going to have to reduce his minutes at SG. And I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no evidence that Jones deserves those minutes ahead of Barea.

Bayliss · 11-06-2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Terry's already playing 35 minutes a game. If you want him to run the point then you're going to have to reduce his minutes at SG. And I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no evidence that Jones deserves those minutes ahead of Barea.

But there is evidence that Barea doesn't deserve those minutes.

Popeye · 11-06-2010, 11:28 AM

I refuse to believe that the best option is running out JJB 15+ minutes per game, especially when he's turning it over and not shooting well. If he comes in and is on fire then I can kind of understand him getting those kind of minutes, but the way he's playing now it's not acceptable.

It is a good point that the Mavs are lacking depth in the back-court. That's probably another reason to give DoJo more burn. They're not going to get through the whole season giving all the guard minutes to Kidd, Terry, JJB and Roddy. If DoJo can't play I'd like to find out now 'cause they'll need to make a trade.

LonghornDub · 11-06-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Always glad to get in a chitchat here.

It's all fairly subjective as to who is better or worse but for my money, salary aside, I think those guys would fetch a higher draft pick than JJB. Also, not that the NBA is the most efficient market, I believe they all make more than JJB.

To be exact, I said his talent is fine as a #8/#9, not that he's as good or better than most comparable #8s. I think he's average and probably closer to a #9. Just looked at Denver and JR Smith is their #8 (they are also missing KMart so somebody's not a true #8 there). To me, #8s are players who play a significant role during the season and contribute in the playoffs and JJB is a kick below that level for a championship team.

Right, I completely agree that it's subjective. But that's exactly my point. If it's close enough that there's room for subjective debate, the hate for him seems misplaced. The reason it'd be rational to hate on JJB would be if he was clearly (i.e., beyond the bounds of reasonable disagreement) inferior to some significant percentage of other teams' guys in a similar roster spot. But that's not the case.

You happened to pick a team that has a really strong bench when healthy, and if JR Smith is really their 8th best player (which I find hard to believe personally), I'd personally take him over JJB no doubt. But I'd imagine for most NBA teams I could make a colorable argument that JJB about equals their #8 guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

That aside, JJB has his place as a #9 slash 10-12mpg kind of guy.. though he'd also probably be a better #9 else where because with him, 3 of our top four players at the 1/2 are <6-2. He's a good bit player but in a weird place of being over-used as well as having his talent set be relatively duplicable on our team. That's probably more of a nod to the front office and coaches than JJB, as you said, and what probably gets him whippingboy status.

I would rather he be the #9 guy, of course. It's always better from our perspective to have guys playing a slot or two lower because we have so much talent.

But again, I'm not sure it's true that he's objectively got the skills of a #9 but not a #8. To determine whether JJB's proper place is at #9, the only thing I can do is look around the NBA and see who are other teams' #8 and #9 guys. Without that comparison, all I'm really doing is just venting my frustration that he's not a better player, without considering how good he reasonably should be. On fairly quick glance of the teams you mentioned and a few others, he seems to be pretty well-placed at #8. I'd still rather he be lower on the pecking order, but I don't think #8 is unreasonable.

Underdog · 11-06-2010, 12:22 PM

I wish Jeremy Lin had signed with us...

mavsfan1000 · 11-06-2010, 04:14 PM

Yep Barea has sucked for a long time. But he is Carlisle's boy. He won favor with him a long time ago and nothing will stop Carlisle from playing him.

nowhereman · 11-06-2010, 04:51 PM

at least he tries to get to the rim, unlike... well pretty much every other veteran on the team.