JJB Sucks - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Robillion · 11-06-2010, 05:30 PM

Just because other team's #8 options are bad..or that other teams dont have 15 useful players.. doesnt mean we have to fit that standard. If you want to be a championship team then you have to find ways to constantly improve.. including who you put on the court. If someone else that wasnt such a defensive liability/could decently run an offense could take up those minutes, that's an improvement. IMO, all of our guards can do a better job defensively and just as good in terms of running the team than JJB can. Not to mention free agents out there/players we could possibly trade for. Playing JJB is not a no other choice decision.

sefant77 · 11-06-2010, 05:39 PM

Our problem:

Our #1 isnt the best defensive player
Our #6 (and now parttime starter) sucks at defense
Our starting PG is limited in playing good defense against several player types

So you really dont wanna have a #8 playing 20min that suck ass in defense. Other teams are way more balanced on both ends of the court.

Thats also the biggest problem, we have the most unbalanced top #6-7 of all the contender

Kidd: Cant score, can just defend a handful of PGs
Terry: Cant defend, jumpshooter
Marion: Cant score, no jumpshot anymore
Dirk: At best average defense, jumpshooter
Chandwood: Barely offensive game

So having all this problems/limitations you really dont want to overplay your #8 that has the same (and even bigger) leaks than your main guys (and that you really shouldnt match at all with your main backcourt guys).

Bayliss · 11-06-2010, 10:43 PM

Well, he was outstanding tonight.

Btw, Joel Anthony played 11 minutes tonight. 5 less than "he who shall not be named". And out of those 11 minutes, 6 came in the first quarter as the starter.

Maybe that is what Dallas neds to do. Just let "he who shall not be named" play the entire first quarter. Get his 12 minutes out of the way. And the have Kidd play the rest of the game.

sefant77 · 11-06-2010, 10:44 PM

Stuckey is unhappy.

LetsGoMavs · 11-06-2010, 10:45 PM

Like i said before, there's no need to go overboard criticising Barea, but his deficits are simply VERY hard to hide (usually resulting in us playing our awful zone defense) and the more long stints he plays, the more the bad can catch up with the good.

But i do not blame him for that...

Simply because he always was (and always will be) a vastly undersized third string PG, whose task it actual should be to bring some change of pace into the game - its not his fault that Rick Carlisle keeps overplaying him!

Robillion · 11-06-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Well, he was outstanding tonight.

Btw, Joel Anthony played 11 minutes tonight. 5 less than "he who shall not be named". And out of those 11 minutes, 6 came in the first quarter as the starter.

Maybe that is what Dallas neds to do. Just let "he who shall not be named" play the entire first quarter. Get his 12 minutes out of the way. And the have Kidd play the rest of the game.

What? Nooo.. JJB needs at least 17 min a game(avg 17.8).

Bayliss · 11-06-2010, 10:48 PM

Well then let him play the first quarter and half of the second quarter.

FINtastic · 11-06-2010, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

And I feel pretty certain that Carlisle won't sit his favorite spark plug on the bench either.

Btw, last night was pretty evident (IMO) of how the Heat are going to go in the playoffs. Anthony got 14 minutes. Most in the first quarter. When Spolstra saw it was awful, he took him out and he literally did not play again. Z/Bosh/Haslem played the rest of the game as the PF/C.

Had they not played him in the first Miami would have caught up a lot sooner. They didn't take their first lead until 1 minute left in the game.

I have a hard time buying that they are going to play Z/Bosh/Haslem 96 minutes a game in the playoffs. I'm not sure Big Z will even be capable of 25 minutes.

FINtastic · 11-06-2010, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Well, he was outstanding tonight.

Btw, Joel Anthony played 11 minutes tonight. 5 less than "he who shall not be named". And out of those 11 minutes, 6 came in the first quarter as the starter.

Maybe that is what Dallas neds to do. Just let "he who shall not be named" play the entire first quarter. Get his 12 minutes out of the way. And the have Kidd play the rest of the game.

Sigh. Again, let's go over this when Roddy gets back. Not really a fair comparison at this point.

And they may give up on Anthony, which wouldn't surprise me. But that just means they'll substitute him out for Magloire. Same difference really.

cinemablend · 11-07-2010, 02:01 AM

IF Roddy comes back.

Are we sure he's coming back?

I'm waiting for the inevitable "he needs surgery and is done for the season" announcement to come any day now.

LSMF · 11-07-2010, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemablend

IF Roddy comes back.

Are we sure he's coming back?

I'm waiting for the inevitable "he needs surgery and is done for the season" announcement to come any day now.

You know, this is the worst case scenario for Roddy(And the Mavs). But I actually can't blame anyone for feeling this way. We're not even being given much info on how Roddy is doing. Mav Fans can only guess what's going on with Roddy's situation right now.

jcm28 · 11-08-2010, 04:37 PM

Not much of a JJB hater but check this out:

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/powerra...ek2/index.html

Quote:

Dallas (3-2)
Pace: 95.2 (20), Off: 101.9 (18), Def: 97.4 (5)
Two games against the Nuggets have knocked the Mavs down a couple of spots defensively, but it's been Dallas' offense (41 total turnovers, specifically) that has failed them in their two losses thus far. They're also suffering too much of a dropoff when they go to the bench. J.J. Barea is a minus-52 in 88 minutes.

nikeball · 11-08-2010, 06:04 PM

There is a difference between JJB being the 8th best player on the Mavericks as opposed to other #8 players on contending teams.

JJB always has the ball in his hands. He takes away from our other primary options (Caron, Dirk Jet) on the floor. The other #8s on other team compliment their stars/better players, whether through defense, shooting wide open threes, or being an energy guy. They do these things without the ball and within the flow of their offense / defense. When JJB comes in, unless he is on fire, I expect the flow to be disrupted. He just dominates the ball so much. But all in all, it is his defense that truly pisses me off.

Edit:

Below is a list of backup point guards that I would rather have than JJB:
Ty Lawson
Eric Maynor
George Hill
Goran Dragic
Jordan Farmar
Kyle Lowry
Steve Blake
Shannon Brown
Chris Duhon
Kirk Hinrich

Here is a list of backup point guards that is about on the same level as JJB but I would rather have because they are bigger and blacker (lol?)
CJ Watson
Ramon Sessions
Earl Watson
Randy Foye
Mario Chalmers
Jerred Bayless

There are teams other than contenders that have better #8 players.. It is just that their #1-#7s are terrible.

iella · 11-08-2010, 06:21 PM

Dragic would be amazing. Every time I've watched him play, it seems like the Suns hardly miss a beat compared to when Nash is on the floor.

rabbitproof · 11-08-2010, 06:27 PM

That -52 in 88minutes stat is atrocious.

If true, it means we slip over -.5 every minute JJB plays or about -8 every game. It could also be that he's mis-fitted or mismatched with teammates or opponents. Hopefully that figure turns around.

chumdawg · 11-08-2010, 06:48 PM

Small sample size. I think -21 of that came in one game, and mostly in one stretch where he certainly wasn't the guy responsible for everyone else on the team not being to score. And for what it's worth, Haywood posted the same negative numbers on that stretch. He and Barea have been subbing in at the same time.

It's important to note, also, that the second unit guys are probably supposed to net a negative +/- over the long run. If they didn't, it would say something not very nice about the first unit.

LonghornDub · 11-08-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robillion

Just because other team's #8 options are bad..or that other teams dont have 15 useful players.. doesnt mean we have to fit that standard. If you want to be a championship team then you have to find ways to constantly improve.. including who you put on the court.

I don't think you understood the comparisons to other teams' players. The point is whether it's reasonable to throw a fit about JJB all the time. The criticisms aren't being framed in terms of his spot in the roster, which is the 8th or 9th best guy. To determine what's reasonable to expect out of that spot on the roster, we necessarily need to look around the league.

And your point about improvement, while obviously true, doesn't really address the issue either. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve at the position. If we have the opportunity to improve, let's go for it. I'm saying the amount of criticism he receives is disproportionate to his abilities and his spot in the pecking order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeball

There are teams other than contenders that have better #8 players.. It is just that their #1-#7s are terrible.

Several of the players you listed are not #8 players, so I hope that wasn't what you're implying. George Hill is probably the 4th or 5th best player on the Spurs. Yeah, I'd obviously trade JJB for him.

rabbitproof · 11-08-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's important to note, also, that the second unit guys are probably supposed to net a negative +/- over the long run. If they didn't, it would say something not very nice about the first unit.

This makes sense within the context of one team. It's actually particularly true for the Mavericks. The five starting Mavericks are all in the top 20 for individual +/- and as a 5-man unit are tied for second in the league with the Heat but how is this possible? Don't 2nd unit guys play AGAINST 2nd unit guys? How do they lose points grounds to each other?

chumdawg · 11-08-2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

This makes sense within the context of one team. It's actually particularly true for the Mavericks. The five starting Mavericks are all in the top 20 for individual +/- and as a 5-man unit are tied for second in the league with the Heat but how is this possible? Don't 2nd unit guys play AGAINST 2nd unit guys? How do they lose points grounds to each other?

Oh, I think I need to back up. I was thinking about the +/- in something like on-court/off-court terms. But if it measures only performance on the court, I suppose there is no reason to expect that the second units would necessarily have negative scores.

remnorz · 11-09-2010, 10:38 AM

Deviating a bit from what his position should and shouldn't be, I believe the problem with JJB is that, when he plays here in Puerto Rico for the PR team, he is a superstar, the plays run through him and/or Carlos Arroyo, they always touch the ball, hog the ball, make love to it and if they want they use other players, which isn't bad, but the problem is that that's the system that's been setup here because they are NBA players and it is expected their level of play to be higher regardless of their position on their respective teams.

When he comes to the NBA he's just another player, not a superstar, meaning, he has to play for others. And I believe that has to have some toll on him, he tries to overachieve instead of playing his role, he tries to be the 6th man, or even the 4th or 5th, which makes even me (I'm completely biased on the subject) hate him at times, I seriously hate when he starts on the turn-over train or does random Sh#@ that is rarely seen when he plays for the PR team. Regardless of the general opinion that international play is lower than the NBA, when Barea plays for the PR team he posts 17+ points per game and 7+ assists, on the NBA that drops to 7 points 2 assists and a gazillion turnovers, anyway, this is just my opinion of course... I obviously love Barea, because he is one of the few from Puerto Rico (2) in the NBA, but I understand all the hate when he plays bad, because even me, a complete Barea supporter hates him then

.

wilmtalk · 11-09-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemablend

I understand why JJB is on the floor when Kidd is not. I get it. Right now the Mavs don't really have a lot of other options. I still say they would be better off with JET but I can accept that maybe JJB is the only way to go at backup PG.

What I do not understand and cannot accept is why every single game he spends significant minutes on the floor WITH Kidd playing Shooting Guard.

That just makes NO sense. They'd be better off with Stephenson out there (by the way, what happened to him??) than JJB at SG with Kidd. It's ridiculous... and proof that Carlisle remains completely blind to Barea's limitations.

That is why he was and still is on the team. It has to do with Kidds limitations. More adjustments are made because of Kidds limitations than any other player on this team. Now Kidd brings a lot of things to this team that was lacking before he got here. To keep him on the floor those adjustments are deemed by the staff to be worth the trade off.

Kidd can not break down the D off the dribble. He is a great high IQ passer who only hits shots when he is open. The other teams know this and play him accordingly. JJB can break down the D off the dribble with a man on him which Terry can not. Terry goes to the hole only off picks and screens or when his man is not playing him very closely. If he played point he would be under constant pressure and a turn over machine.

Kidd has trouble playing quick points like CP3, rondo, parker and most of the new points who came in to the league last year. JJB is put into the line up to stay in front of those players while Kidd plays the slower two or three. Actually the team plays zone not as some of you believe to compensate for JJB but to compensate for Kidd. That is also why Chandler is always in the line up with Kidd. because he plays well off the ball defense and can compenste for the guards' defensive libilities, especially Kidds. Zones are especially effective at stopping drives into the lane off the dribble.

So for those of you that don't percieve it yourselves- JJB is here because of Kidd. He is playing because Roddy who is at worst a major upgrade to JJB is injured. When he comes back the problem is solved to a degree. The problem with this team is that it is filled with too many one or two dimentional players who need other unidimentional players to balence them out. The place where it starts is the point. We really need a complete point guard, one who can create off the dribble and pass. A point who can stay in front of the multipule new quick points in the league so that whe can have a normal two instead of one that has to compensate for our points shortcomings. That is the reality and everything begins and ends there.

Getting rid of JJB would not solve this teams problems. Getting rid of JJB would create more problems unless the reason he is here is corrected first.

41mvp · 11-09-2010, 11:37 AM

he played very good match against Boston

wilmtalk · 11-09-2010, 12:23 PM

Whats with this new editing format that asks for a reason?

A team is just that a team. You can't isolate a player and evaluate their worth without putting them in the context of the rest of the team. The are a just a piece of the whole. JJB nor any other player can't nor should they be evaluated in isolation. Thats why often a player when they are traded to a different team gives an entirely different result. Numbers don't always translate from one team to the other.

The problem with the mavs started under Nelson who filled the team with offense motivated outside jump shooters. "Run TMC" that was his ideal for a team. The years since have been spent trying to restucture the team into a more normal mode. You need a multifacited team to win a champianship. This requires multifacited players not players that bring outstanding talents but also major deficiancys along with them.

A lot of you roast JJB over the fire. He has become the scapegoat for the inherent flaws of the team. You hate him because it is the easiest way to release your frustrations. You don't want to see the real problem realistically because that might treaten your idealic perception of a player you love. So you project your favored players sins and flaws onto JJB. Some of you also believe that JJB interfers with playing time for another player who you are convinced would be a star if he only had the chance. In Psych terms it's called Displacement. It's like the wife who attacts the police that she called to protect her from her husband. Or blames the girlfriend instead of her man. There

Some of you also believe that JJB is the reason that DJ is not getting more playing time and thus it is he that is keeping him from developing into the star that you believe DJ can be. That may well be true but it is not objective to assess JJB under that kind of bias. All his flaws are magnified and his plus'es minimized through those biased eyes.

I am not a JJB fan. I for some time have thought that we needed to acquire another backup point. But people some of you have been very unfair with him both this and last season. I have also for years been a critic of RC but he is using him because he has at present no other realistic viable option to what JJB brings to fill specific team needs.

wilmtalk · 11-09-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41mvp

he played very good match against Boston

Because he matched up better against them. There are a lot of teams that he will continue to match up with. Unless we have a defensively competant Roddy we will need him against those types of teams. That little Celtic guard often gives other teams fits.

The celtics were just one in a series of real tests for the Mavs. Before then the Mavs have not faced really quick points. How we react and play against those points will tell how well we will fare in the playoffs.

dude1394 · 11-09-2010, 12:44 PM

I think JJB can be functional if he's not required to be the focus of the offensive attack. He seemed to have a lot more space out there last night. Only once do I recall a completely bone-headed plunge into the lane with no clue as to what to do with it once he got there.

The other times, good stuff.

wilmtalk · 11-09-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iella

Dragic would be amazing. Every time I've watched him play, it seems like the Suns hardly miss a beat compared to when Nash is on the floor.

Yes he would! But to get him what would we have to give up. Dragic could also not be justified as back up point guard here.He would have to be the starter on this team. Teams to not give up good young points they develop them. Except for use of course we trade them for old ones. Hopefully we have learned our lesson.

SMC0007 · 11-09-2010, 02:09 PM

I will say this in defense of JJB since it seems to be the current trend. He drives the lane and gets fouled 5 times a game and gets the call maybe 1. Even still he goes back for more. Look at it good or bad but you can't really question his heart. Still tho, he is too erratic and short.

Kante · 11-10-2010, 07:14 PM

Even Dirk said JJ played better:

Quote:

Tough battle last night. Big win. There was even a jj barea sighting ha. Feel better caron. Go mavs

http://twitter.com/swish41

particleman · 11-10-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

Even Dirk said JJ played better:

http://twitter.com/swish41

Hahaha.. I just saw that and was coming here to post about it! Hilarious.

rabbitproof · 11-10-2010, 08:01 PM

JJB played well vs. Boston.

Two interesting angles in that game that didn't exist prior:

1) JET came off the bench and gave scoring and spacing for JJB to do his lane drive thing.
2) JJB played vs Nate and didn't force the Mavs to go auto-zone.

Obviously, we should hope 1 was the bigger factor than 2.

mavs777 · 11-10-2010, 09:12 PM

# Bio Tall Baller from the G!

Bayliss · 11-10-2010, 10:14 PM

"He who shall not be named" had a really good 4th quarter tonight.

mavs777 · 11-10-2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

"He who shall not be named" had a really good 4th quarter tonight.

might have something to do with the score...

chumdawg · 11-10-2010, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

2) JJB played vs Nate and didn't force the Mavs to go auto-zone.

I noticed in the Boston game that the Mavs went to the zone straight out of the box, before Barea could even smell the floor.

mavs777 · 11-11-2010, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I noticed in the Boston game that the Mavs went to the zone straight out of the box, before Barea could even smell the floor.

Makes a lot of sense against Rondo

mavs777 · 11-11-2010, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Makes a lot of sense against Rondo

agreed

Five-ofan · 11-11-2010, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I have a hard time buying that they are going to play Z/Bosh/Haslem 96 minutes a game in the playoffs. I'm not sure Big Z will even be capable of 25 minutes.

I think you are forgetting Lebrons ability to play the 4. Several of Lebrons 42+mpg he will play in the playoffs will be at the 4, especially if you assume miller will be healthy by then. Here is how I see their playoff rotation,

Pg-Arroyo 22 House 20 Wade 6
SG-Wade 35 Miller 13
Sf-LBJ-30-Miller 18
PF Bosh 36- LBJ 12
C-Haslem-25, Z 10, Anthony-10, Bosh 3

Comes out to LBJ 42 mpg, wade 41 mpg, bosh 39 mpg, miller 31 mpg, arroyo 22 mpg, house 20 mpg, z/anthony 10mpg apiece. Obviously it will mix and match depending on matchups.

twelli · 11-11-2010, 02:32 AM

"There was a Barea sighting, ha"

That says a lot how Dirk thinks JJ is usually playing...

Thespiralgoeson · 11-11-2010, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetsGoMavs

But i do not blame him for that...

Simply because he always was (and always will be) a vastly undersized third string PG, whose task it actual should be to bring some change of pace into the game - its not his fault that Rick Carlisle keeps overplaying him!

This is a point that I think gets overlooked too often when everyone here (myself included) dumps on JJB. The problem with main Barea's role on the team is that he and Terry are on the floor together too much. Now, that's sort of understandable while Roddy is out, but it was also a HUGE problem last year. Even if JJB is your second-string PG, you can still adjust the rotation so he plays the majority of his minutes with Butler or Stevenson at the 2 next to him.

The point is, JJB is what he is, and when used properly, he can be effective. But Carlisle should know better than to have two guys who can't defend out there together for long stretches at a time.

Dirkules41 · 11-17-2010, 10:52 PM

Yes he does, big time!