confirmed: raef signed, russell to dallas, buckner gone - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Nellie · 07-18-2002, 10:41 AM

<< huh?

Trade Bradley for a backup PG? NEVER.
Trade Bradley for a backup SG? NOPE.
Trade Bradley for a backup SF? NO.
Trade Bradley for a backup PF/C? Depends. >>

Well...to each his own I guess.

Nellie · 07-18-2002, 10:45 AM

<< and Nellie - just checking that we are talking about the same team?

The Mavs need a respectable backup PG ????????????????????????????????

This is summer 2002 ... we have Nash, VanExel, Avery Johnson

Don´t you think adding a backup PG now would be a little ... hmmm ... optimistic? >>

Getting more rest for Nash is a concern. Nellie plays NVE WITH Nash instead of FOR him. Murph would be the best to explain this problem.

seelenjaeger · 07-18-2002, 11:39 AM

Nellie - trading for ANOTHER backup PG would be as useless as you can make a trade

The only way to get Nash more rest is trading for another COACH ...

Murphy3 · 07-18-2002, 12:04 PM

yes, i can explain..and i will later on tonight. i've got tired head right now...work is beating me down.. but i will make it more than clear.. more than clear. oh yes, i will

Nellie · 07-18-2002, 01:36 PM

<< Nellie - trading for ANOTHER backup PG would be as useless as you can make a trade

The only way to get Nash more rest is trading for another COACH ... >>

Whatever guy. I am not interested in arguing with you over why Nash's rest is more important than keeping Bradley.

TheKid · 07-18-2002, 04:50 PM

Exactly seelenjaeger. Even if a player sucks and screws up a lot, you can't expect him to come off the bench and in the playoffs and produce when he hasn't played in the last 30 games.

That's funny because that's what Najera did when we had injury problems earlier in the season.. He went practically an entire season with barely getting minutes but made the most of it when he did get the chance.. Or what about Bryant last year in the playoffs, he got FAR less playing time than Bradley did this year and Bryant came in and was essential in the Mavs coming back down two games to Utah last year... When you're a veteran you're suppose to be able to do that.. Also, I didn't hear that argument for Manning this year, he was playing under the same circumstances.. Actually when I think about it, Newman played under the same circumstances and barely played for a long stint this year then came in and gave the team something even during the playoffs after not playing for one entire series.... So I don't buy that, I agree with Nellie, when you're a veteran you should be able to contribute. I'm not saying he should come in and have all-star numbers BUT he should be servicable and this past season Bradley was NOT serviceable... Maybe he was for a few games but for somone coming into the season that was expected to be a BIG part of our defensive scheme, it's a shame!

Murphy3 · 07-18-2002, 07:00 PM

bradley's got to step up this season.
nelson has to give him a little bit of lee-way (sp?) from time to time as well.

bradley sucked at times... however, when he was actually playing pretty good ball, nelson had an incredibly short leash.

there's two issues that need to be addressed:
1. bradley being ready to play at the start of the season
2. nellie not using bradley as a scapegoat giving him an excuse to play small ball

seelenjaeger · 07-18-2002, 08:42 PM

Kid - yeah, actually Najera did. and because you cant EXPECT it, everybody was exstatic about him doing it...

Nellie · 07-19-2002, 09:59 AM

I expected it.

I expect Najera to have energy, hustle, passion and to give the team a boost. He always does.

I expect Bradley to be slow, confused, uncoordinated, get in foul trouble and slow the offense down to a pace that it doesn't work. He always does.

I don't know what is so hard to understand here. These are not opinions, they are facts. Bradley sucks and he jeopardizes this team's effectiveness when he is on the floor. To blame Nellie for this is cop-out. He sucks, plain and simple. Trust me, if a deal come along in which Bradley can be moved, I guarantee you that the team will not miss him.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 10:12 AM

Until the mavs make some type of deal, bradley is by far their best option at the center position

TheKid · 07-19-2002, 10:16 AM

Nellie it's nothing hard to understand here... I think what's going on is that alot of people remember what Bradley did two years ago when he was MORE consistent and actually gave the team something. People thought he'd taken a turn in the right direction... However what this year showed me was that he had a year that I've seen too many teams, IT WAS A CONTRACT YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to say Bradley sucks but boy he's doing a good job of making me think anything other than that.... I would like to see Bradley stay if he's going to contribute and play well.. People say he's not trying, but I disagree, I think he does try and tries hard, I just think he is what he is and personally that's no good enough in my opinion.

Nellie · 07-19-2002, 10:21 AM

<< Until the mavs make some type of deal, bradley is by far their best option at the center position >>

Exactly, which is why we play small ball because our "best" option sucks. Raef at center is much better than Bradley at center because Bradley sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 10:29 AM

i don't think you'll get much argument out of people that bradley didn't perform well last year.. and it's without a doubt that we hope he performs like he did a couple of years ago.

most of the issues with his play last year must fall on his shoulders..
but some must fall on nellie's shoulders. part of the reason bradley was yanked last year even when playing well was because of nellie's love of small ball. bradley was a scapegoat for nellie's fascination with putting his team at a defensive disadvantage by going small

Nellie · 07-19-2002, 10:37 AM

<< Nellie it's nothing hard to understand here... >>

What I don't understand is why some want to blame Nellie for Bradley sucking when his track record after 11 seasons is pretty much the same which sucks. Anybody can have one good year but that doesn't make you a great player that isn't getting a fair break. Bradley sucks because he has sucked for 90% of his career. Nellie is not the only coach that didn't play Bradley so Bradley doesn't suck because of Nellie. Bradley sucks because he sucks and it is extremely misdirected to blame Nellie for this. That is what I don't understand.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 10:49 AM

why does nellie receive some of the blame... because even when bradley was playing well, nellie yanked him for the smallest thing just so nellie could have an excuse to go back to small ball

TheKid · 07-19-2002, 10:52 AM

You're right, it does fall on Bradley's shoulders.. "I" don't blame Nellie for it.. Nellie is no harder on Bradley than he is on Griff, Najera or any of the bench players... I've watched other players mess up and get yanked or get yelled at by Nellie, but they've all responded and THIS YEAR Bradley didn't and that's why I don't blame Nellie..

Nellie was in love with small ball BUT I think when it boils down to it, it was because it came down to there being about 11 other players on the team that were playing better than Bradley so he went with them...

Should Nellie have stuck with Bradley when he was struggling, maybe, but the difference between this year and other years were the Mavs believed they had a GOOD CHANCE at winning a championship this past season, so they went with the players that gave them the best chance. When you are UNSURE of a player, you're not going to put him out there. Think about it, this year Bradley played when they couldn't get ANYTHING going, so they had nothing to lose by putting Bradley in... Other than that, when everyone else was playing good, he never looked Bradley's way.. THAT in my opinion is Bradley's fault.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 11:28 AM

<< Nellie is no harder on Bradley than he is on Griff, Najera or any of the bench players >>

yes, he is
some of it is probably deserved. however, i think nellie had a hard time getting his personal feelings out of the situation late in the season when bradley was playing pretty good ball

MavKikiNYC · 07-19-2002, 11:30 AM

<<

<< Nellie is no harder on Bradley than he is on Griff, Najera or any of the bench players >>

yes, he is
some of it is probably deserved. however, i think nellie had a hard time getting his personal feelings out of the situation late in the season when bradley was playing pretty good ball >>

I don't think Nellíe's any harder on Mantis than the others. The difference is that they respond better. Performance gets minutes.

Just211 · 07-19-2002, 11:36 AM

good point
Once your in the dog house you have to earn your way out, Bradley never did it. He didn't have a single good game all year, Hell I don't think he played two good minutes in a row without doing something stupid.

TheKid · 07-19-2002, 11:37 AM

I agree.. If he IS harder on Bradley it's because he's expecting more out of an 11 year vet compared to two guys that haven't even been in the league for more than 3 years... Out of the three the ONE guy you expect to give you the most doesn't, that would be very frustrating for me too.

madape · 07-19-2002, 11:45 AM

Well nellie, since we are talking about FACTS here, and not some idiots OPINION... STATISTICS will show that Bradley is not just a player worth having on the team, he may just be the best player we have, statistically. According to the 2001 media guide, no player on the mavericks roster had a greater plus/minus ratio during the 2000/2001 season than Shawn Bradley. To put it into layman's terms (that's you Nellie), Shawn had more of an impact on the Mavs outscoring their opponents than anyone on the team. It can be actually be argued from this stat alone, that Shawn was the best and most important player on the team. Of course, I don't expect you to comprehend something SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND. But since we are talking about FACTS here, instead of some morons OPINION.. I thought it would be worth mentioning.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 12:15 PM

<< Performance gets minutes >>

when bradley was performing well..nellie didn't step up and give him the minutes he deserved. why? because of nellie's love of small ball

MavKikiNYC · 07-19-2002, 12:24 PM

Chicken. Egg. Egg. Chicken.

I kept hoping that Bradley would get minutes last year, and that production from the center position would approximate what it had been from the year before. It never did. And of the games I saw Bradley play, it looked like that he shut down and sat down, instead of shutting up and stepping up.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 12:26 PM

try watching more games then..it'll help

MavKikiNYC · 07-19-2002, 12:27 PM

Apparently not in all cases....

TheKid · 07-19-2002, 12:31 PM

Listen, Nellie loved small ball but Nellie has ALWAYS loved small ball.. (remember Run TMC... They got Webber to play center remember that)My point in pointing that out was Nellie loved small ball just as MUCH two years ago and Bradley got his minutes then, but he didn't last year because he didn't perform.. Those stats you're referring to Madape, yes he produced two years ago.. He still got in foul trouble, he still made mistakes and Nellie still got mad at him, but guess what, he responded that year.. Starting out this year people in case you've all forgot, Bradley was a starter... He played his way OUT of starting lineup... That's why Nellie got down on him. It wasn't like he was in Esch's shoes where he had to come in and prove himself, all he had to do was continue playing hard and he couldn't do that...

Madape, I understand that you like Bradley but you're a Mavs fan first and regardless of those stats, please tell me you don't believe that even two years ago that you thought Bradley was the most important player on this team?

Just211 · 07-19-2002, 12:39 PM

It's not Nellie's fault that Bradley played like crap all year, the same thing happened to Manning, he played like crap got put on the bench and never got another opputunity. that's basketball you play, play hard, or sit down. Bradley has played excellent at times, but the problem is that when things aren't going his way, he always starts acting stupid, with dump fouls, or starting something with the refs. Also small ball works rather well , and when Bradley is inserted in, he's uaually a momentem killer. It's hard to get on Nellie's case when everytime Bradley went in , there was a good chance he would stop any run they were having.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 12:58 PM

no doubt..bradley has to play better..but nellie must shoulder some of the blame.

with nellie's mentality, bradley could play solid ball and still not get minutes because of nellie's love for small ball

bradley's and nellie's mentality have both got to change

madape · 07-19-2002, 12:59 PM

No Kid, I don't think Bradley was the best player on the team that year. However, as the statistics show, his impact on the teams performance is greatly underappreciated. He did play his way out of the starting lineup last year and I really can't give you a reason why. He could have been injured, he could have been tired, he could have lost his motivation... I don't know. What I do know is that Nelson showed very little patience with him when he wasn't playing well. I think that someone who has proven himself to be an important part of the team, and one who was a big reason for our playoff success in 2001 deserves to be given more of a chance. I don't think that if Finley had gone into two month slump that Nelson would have benched him for the entire season.

TheKid · 07-19-2002, 01:01 PM

Nellie's mentality has to change but not for Bradley's sake but for the team's sake. Meaning if Nellie recognized small ball wasn't working he should have used Eschmeyer more if he thought Bradley wasn't getting it done. However Bradley needs to focus more and just play better and more consistent. Bradley is NEVER going to be dominating and I don't expect him to but I expect him to be consistent, he's a veteran. So I think if that changes, Nellie would be MORE than happy to give him minutes.

Just211 · 07-19-2002, 01:12 PM

key word is consistent``

Seems like Bradley plays either really good (very rarely)
or just terrible.

I think his game would be a lot better if he just played hard and shut up, it seems like he's always complaining to refs to me. If he approached refs mor proffessionally, some calls might go his way. Then Bradley's defense would of value.

Also I think the main reason he doesn't get very many minutes is cause he's 7'6'' and hardly ever gets any boards

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 01:17 PM

thekid, by no means do i think it's all nellie's fault or anything even close to that...
of course, bradley needs to have his act together for the beginning of the season...of course.

however, nellie must also see that small ball isn't the answer for this team's continued development

madape · 07-19-2002, 01:23 PM

Actaully, Bradley is a very good rebounder.

In 2000/2001, Bradley rebounded at a rate of one rebound every 3.29 <minutes>. That was the tenth best rate in the league. To put that in perspective, last year Dirk averaged one every 3.8, and Raef averaged one every 3.9.

Just211 · 07-19-2002, 01:33 PM

<< In 2000/2001, Bradley rebounded at a rate of one rebound every 3.29 seconds. That was the tenth best rate in the league. To put that in perspective, last year Dirk averaged one every 3.8, and Raef averaged one every 3.9. >>

I hope you mean minutes not seconds
if it's seconds lets play him a minute a game
thats what 18 boards a game

TheKid · 07-19-2002, 01:35 PM

What I do know is that Nelson showed very little patience with him when he wasn't playing well. I think that someone who has proven himself to be an important part of the team, and one who was a big reason for our playoff success in 2001 deserves to be given more of a chance.

Madape you're right he did show little patience.. However I can see where Nellie was coming from though. Bradley is a veteran and to play like he did the year before and not even come CLOSE to that, is a tad bit frustrating. I think I would lose patience too. NOW if it was slightly below the level of a year before, I'm pretty sure we would have saw Bradley play ALOT more this past year, however it was SIGNIFICANTLY worse, that's what the problem was. Also it's more frustrating when you're NOT asking a player to be the leader, best scorer or even best rebounder. They want Bradley there to block shots and sure up the middle defensively. Anything else he gives them is a BONUS, but he couldn't even do that.

If the Mavs looked to Fin, Dirk and Nash to lead the team in scoring, and they were having a rough time doing that, do you think Nellie would want to stick with them?

Murph, I most CERTAINLY won't argue that Nellie needs to recognize small ball isn't the answer. Hell you won't get an argument from me there, but if Bradley is the answer, then BRADLEY needs to step up and show him.

Murphy3 · 07-19-2002, 02:09 PM

thekid, i don't think bradley is the answer..but, for what the mavs have on their team, he's probably the best option.

hell, i've been campaigning for the mavs to bring in a big guy for a couple of years..to bring in a guy that can grab boards and play good man to man defense..

Nellie · 07-19-2002, 04:28 PM

<< Well nellie, since we are talking about FACTS here, and not some idiots OPINION... STATISTICS will show that Bradley is not just a player worth having on the team, he may just be the best player we have, statistically. According to the 2001 media guide, no player on the mavericks roster had a greater plus/minus ratio during the 2000/2001 season than Shawn Bradley. To put it into layman's terms (that's you Nellie), Shawn had more of an impact on the Mavs outscoring their opponents than anyone on the team. It can be actually be argued from this stat alone, that Shawn was the best and most important player on the team. Of course, I don't expect you to comprehend something SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND. But since we are talking about FACTS here, instead of some morons OPINION.. I thought it would be worth mentioning. >>

Who are you, Mrs. Bradley?

Obscure stats are obscure stats. Here's a FACT, Even Eschmeyer was in the top 5 in +/- minutes in 2000-2001 which based on your logic would make him one of the top franchise players in the league cause he can make everybody around him better. Don't call me a moron cause I don't buy into your obscure stats and stop taking it so personaly. Bradley's impression is what he brought upon himself. If it makes you feel better to get angry at me for that then obviously you need to grow up a little. The truth is that he brought it on himself and no obscure stats are going to change that.

David · 07-19-2002, 06:34 PM

<< why does nellie receive some of the blame... because even when bradley was playing well, nellie yanked him for the smallest thing just so nellie could have an excuse to go back to small ball >>

I'm going to have to disagree here. It's true Nelson has Bradley on a short leash but I have a feeling his motivations for yanking Bradley from the game are different than what you say here. I saw him take Bradley out one time last year and then chew him out. Nelson was saying, "we just got through talking about that, Shawn". I think Nelson gets frustrated with Bradley because he is not doing as instructed and makes the same mistakes over and over. Nelson is not going to reward a guy like that with playing time.

Nelson then goes to small ball because his best players are Dirk, Fin, Nash, NVE and Raef, in some kind of order. Nelson is merely going to his best players. Sometimes he throws a defender into that mix, which would be Najera, Buck, Griffen or Newman, who all just happen to be 6'8" and under. Nelson CAN'T go big defensively without including Bradley. If Bradley screws up or dogs it or whatever, the options are limited.

madape · 07-19-2002, 06:43 PM

Good Nellie, it looks like you are finally learning the difference between facts and opinions. While statistics don't always tell the whole story, they sure come a lot closer to being factual than some guy saying "Here's the <u>facts</u>, Bradley sucks.".

As for Eschmeyer, he could be a very valuble player for the Mavs if ever given the chance to play. I DO buy into the plus/minus statistic. I think it is a great way to measure a player's effectiveness. If Eschmeyer consistently puts up good plus/minus numbers then there is no doubt he's helping out the team.

Apparently Cuban and others on the Mavs coaching staff agree.. or else Esch wouldn't be here.

madape · 07-19-2002, 06:46 PM

BTW - here's a link I posted a while back on a new statistical analysis tool the Mavs have aquired.

http://www.indystar.com/article.php?pacers03.html