Congrats to the 6th BEST running back off all TIMES!!! - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 09:42 PM

<< LaDainian Tomlinson Yds/G 112.1, Avg 4.5, Games in 2002-- 7... 2nd greatest back. >>

dude,
Apparently you have never heard of statistical relevance

mffl,
rushing for 1000 is practically insignificant these days. it only requires the running back to gain an average of 62.5 yds per game, while gaining 1400 requires 87.5 yards per game which is still below the average of jim brown

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 09:45 PM

20 -- 100-yard games after age 30, second to Walter Payton's 23.

42 -- team-record touches (32 runs, 10 catches) in 1993 season-finale vs. Giants, 17 after separating right shoulder.

86.6 -- average yards over 192 career games, fifth-best all-time.

1,586 -- postseason yards, a record.

Dirks Cuzin · 10-27-2002, 09:46 PM

All those things that u put in bold has a lot to do with his o-line and team, like I said, everything about TDs has to do with his team getting them to turn over and playing good D. Then, his passing game helped him get to the Red Zone so he could score

Dirks Cuzin · 10-27-2002, 09:50 PM

1,586 -- postseason yards, a record. 42 -- team-record touches (32 runs, 10 catches) in 1993 season-finale vs. Giants, 17 after separating right shoulder.20 -- 100-yard games after age 30, second to Walter Payton's 23.

The reason he set a record for PostSeason yds is obviously bcuz his team was good. and the other 2 stats, HOW INSIGNIFICANT AND STUPID ARE THOSE? how good they did against the Giants on blah blah, 1993, COME ON

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 09:52 PM

<< HOW INSIGNIFICANT AND STUPID ARE THOSE? >>

Obviously as insignificant and stupid as the attempt to sway you with facts. Bring a couple of FACTS to the argument, not just your opinions.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 09:59 PM

Dirkscuzin... Even your silly statement that he had the best line from 94-96 doesn't hold up to prove/disprove anything. So what, that's 3 years. You trying to tell me that brown and payton had terrible lines. Prove it. What about the rest of the 13 seasons emmitt was here? What about the last 3 years when the line STUNK!! And he still got his 1000.

It's easy to talk about how the oline was so great that blah, blah, blah because you can't back it up. The same oline was in place when emmitt sat out the first two games of a season over a contract dispute and the team LOST both games. They couldn't run the ball, haley bashed a wall in pointed to the running back and said they couldn't win with him, so who was that, the oline or emmitt.

FINtastic · 10-27-2002, 10:06 PM

What about the durability and heart that Emmitt displayed in this rush to the record. He never quit. I think his stay in this game has a alot to do with how much he loves the game and how hard he plays.

BTW, those yrd/gm are a little skewed. Jim Brown quit at his peak. He didn't stay around for the extra three or four seasons Emmitt has played for. If you cut off Emmitt's career at the same point, Emmitt's numbers would be closer to Jim Brown since he didn't have his last few mediocre seasons as an older back bringing down his averages. However, I do still think Jim Brown was the better back.

I do however give Emmitt the edge over Barry because Barry had a whole lot of negative yardage and didn't do all of the little things Emmitt did. Plus, Barry had some horrible playoff games (remember his 13 carries for -1 yards against GB that one year, just to bring up one of several instances.) Emmitt always played really well in playoff time.

FINtastic · 10-27-2002, 10:10 PM

dude, you make a good point that the DMN brought up this morning. How good was that offensive line? It's the old which came first - chicken or the egg - question. They said that in 1989 before Emmitt was here but most of the O-Line was in place, no one was saying the O Line was that great. But then Emmitt comes in and tears it up, and then everyone on the O Line is really good. I am not trying to say they were bad, but how dominant were they? Did they make Emmitt or did Emmitt make them?

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 10:21 PM

>Usually< an offensive line becomes great when they get a great back. Very rarely does a line do well despite a back - the only one I can think of is Denver with THREE different backs being dominant. And just as rare is a back who does well without the line - Sanders is the exception there.

Payton did have a good line - the Bears always had terrible QB's. That's the reason that they went from sad sack to champion so quickly - they got a QB.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 10:28 PM

Talking of the oline brings up a funny story. Supposedly emmitt had been tearing it up when the new oline coach (hudson houck) came in. He wanted to pump up his oline so he was telling them how great they were and how they were the reason emmitt was doing so great.

They looked at film of a run, emmitt jumped over the olineman, spun away from someone after he landed and galloped for 20 yards or so.

Kevin Gogan piped up... "yeah we had a lot to do with that one, didn't we coach". [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 10:31 PM

Any starting running back can reach 1000 yards these days. If said back receives 20 carries a game, they only have to average a shade over 3 yards per carry(very michael pittman-like) to reach 1000 and that is hardly something to boast about. all that stat proves, once again, is that emmitt has been an unusually durable back in an age of many 1,000 yd rushers.

Seasons over 2,000 yards from scrimmage:

Walter Payton - 4
Emmitt Smith - 2
Jim Brown - 1 (1,800 total yards 2 more times)

Bare in mind Brown was playing in less games per season

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 10:34 PM

86.6 -- average yards over 192 career games, fifth-best all-time.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 10:36 PM

<< Any starting running back can reach 1000 yards these days. If said back receives 20 carries a game, they only have to average a shade over 3 yards per carry(very michael pittman-like) to reach 1000 and that is hardly something to boast about. all that stat proves, once again, is that emmitt has been an unusually durable back in an age of many 1,000 yd rushers.

Seasons over 2,000 yards from scrimmage:

Walter Payton - 4
Emmitt Smith - 2
Jim Brown - 1 (1,800 total yards 2 more times)

Bare in mind Brown was playing in less games per season >>

Payton played in 190 games, emmitt 193
rushing attempts 3838, emmitt 3929
yards 16726, emmitt 16743
avg 4.4, 4.26
tds 110, 150

Looks like they are very,very close. If we wanted to say that emmitt quits tommorrow I might give it to payton. Since he will not, he will and is the greatest ever.

Dirks Cuzin · 10-27-2002, 10:38 PM

I have to go to bed, but expect a good post by tommorow night

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 10:57 PM

Neal Anderson became the primary ballcarier during Payton's last season (the 1987 strike-shortened season) with the Bears. Also, the Bears were not just bad during most of Payton's time, they were horrible. Walter only played on 2 winning teams prior to the 1985 Super Bowl, so don't fault him for having poor teammates unless he was doubling as the Bear's GM.
-----------------------------------
Pro-Bowl Lineman Emmitt ran behind:

Gogan, Stepnowski, Allen, Williams, Tuinei, Donaldson, Newton

Pro-Bowl Lineman Payton ran behing:

Jim Covert (1985 & 1986)
-----------------------------------

How is that for proof of quality at O-Line?

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 11:03 PM

<< Neal Anderson became the primary ballcarier during Payton's last season (the 1987 strike-shortened season) with the Bears. Also, the Bears were not just bad during most of Payton's time, they were horrible. Walter only played on 2 winning teams prior to the 1985 Super Bowl, so don't fault him for having poor teammates unless he was doubling as the Bear's GM.
-----------------------------------
Pro-Bowl Lineman Emmitt ran behind:

Gogan, Stepnowski, Allen, Williams, Tuinei, Donaldson, Newton

Pro-Bowl Lineman Payton ran behing:

Jim Covert (1985 & 1986)
-----------------------------------

How is that for proof of quality at O-Line? >>

I honestly don't know what to make of that "proof of quality". Since it seems that pro-bowls are as much about team winning percentage as anything.

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 11:05 PM

Another bit on Emmitt's teammates:

(Beginning with 1993):"Dallas has earned 32 Pro Bowl selections which is the most ever by one team over a 3 year period of time."

It is all relative. Having a great O-line allowed Emmitt to rack up large proportions of his yards late in games due to the bludgeoning handed out by his buddies listed above. Having a great defense gave the Cowboys the lead most of the time in the second half, allowing the Cowboys to feed Emmitt the ball at record rates. Having Troy and Michael (I know they are no McMahon and Gault) made the opponent's defense honest and put Emmitt in position to have about 10 one yard touchdowns every year....and I'm spent

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 11:09 PM

Jay Hilgenberg went to the pro bowl every year as a center 1985 to 1991.

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 11:14 PM

<<

<< Neal Anderson became the primary ballcarier during Payton's last season (the 1987 strike-shortened season) with the Bears. Also, the Bears were not just bad during most of Payton's time, they were horrible. Walter only played on 2 winning teams prior to the 1985 Super Bowl, so don't fault him for having poor teammates unless he was doubling as the Bear's GM.
-----------------------------------
Pro-Bowl Lineman Emmitt ran behind:

Gogan, Stepnowski, Allen, Williams, Tuinei, Donaldson, Newton

Pro-Bowl Lineman Payton ran behing:

Jim Covert (1985 & 1986)
-----------------------------------

How is that for proof of quality at O-Line? >>

I honestly don't know what to make of that "proof of quality". Since it seems that pro-bowls are as much about team winning percentage as anything. >>

Players who perform well are chosen for Pro-Bowls. Performing well for your team has a positive correlation with wins and the more people you have who perform well, the more likely you are to win. If you have 10 of these players every year, some of the players are likely to benefit from the association with a successful team, but I think most people who watched those guys play would agree that they were at the top of the league at their respective positions. If being on a winning team made them the Pro-Bowl reserve instead of just being left off, the difference is really minimal. The fact is the Cowboys had record amounts of Pro-Bowlers on the O-Line and throughout their entire lineup. This isn't differential equations here. Emmitt's rushing record is the legacy of a tremendous team that will go down as the last NFL dynasty. If you could not tell by Emmitt's reaction on the sidline, especially with Moose, it took many people from those very special teams to enable Emmitt to get this record.

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 11:16 PM

Pro Bowlers for the Boys. Smith in 1990 but no offensive linemen until 1992? Sounds like the success of the running back is rubbing off on the line.

1990
RB Emmitt Smith

1991
QB Troy Aikman
RB Emmitt Smith (starter)
TE Jay Novacek (starter)
WR Michael Irvin (starter)

1992
QB Troy Aikman
WR Michael Irvin
OG Nate Newton
TE Jay Novacek (starter)
RB Emmitt Smith (starter)
C Mark Stepnoski

1993
QB Troy Aikman (starter)
DB Thomas Everett
WR Michael Irvin (starter)
FB Daryl Johnston
DT Russell Maryland
OG Nate Newton (starter)
LB Ken Norton
TE Jay Novacek (starter)
RB Emmitt Smith (starter)
C Mark Stepnoski (starter)
OG Erik Williams (starter)

1994
QB Troy Aikman
DE Charles Haley (starter)
WR Michael Irvin
RB Daryl Johnston
DT Leon Lett (starter)
OG Nate Newton (starter)
TE Jay Novacek
RB Emmitt Smith (starter)
C Mark Stepnoski (starter)
T Mark Tuinei
S Darren Woodson (starter)

1995
QB Troy Aikman
OG Larry Allen
C Ray Donaldson
DE Charles Haley (starter)
WR Michael Irvin
OG Nate Newton (starter)
TE Jay Novacek (starter)
RB Emmitt Smith (starter)
OT Mark Tuinei
S Darren Woodson (starter)

1996
QB Troy Aikman
OG Larry Allen (starter)
C Ray Donaldson
G Nate Newton
CB Deion Sanders (starter)
LB Jim Schwantz
DE Tony Tolbert (starter)
T Erik Williams (starter)
S Darren Woodson

1997
OG Larry Allen (starter)
CB Deion Sanders (starter)
T Erik Williams (starter)
S Darren Woodson

1998
OT Larry Allen (starter)
DL Leon Lett
OG Nate Newton
CB Deion Sanders (starter)
RB Emmitt Smith
S Darren Woodson

1999
OT Larry Allen (starter)
LB Dexley Coakley
CB Deion Sanders (starter)
RB Emmitt Smith
OT Erik Williams

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 11:16 PM

<< Jay Hilgenberg went to the pro bowl every year as a center 1985 to 1991. >>

So that makes 8 different Pro-Bowlers Emmitt ran behind. Nearly enough to form 2 very good offensive lines, but I think Jim Covert's 2 Pro-Bowl years at the end of Payton's career easily offset all those guys

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 11:28 PM

<< . Emmitt's rushing record is the legacy of a tremendous team that will go down as the last NFL dynasty. If you could not tell by Emmitt's reaction on the sidline, especially with Moose, it took many people from those very special teams to enable Emmitt to get this record. >>

Of course, but none of the backs we are talking about did it by themselves.

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 11:30 PM

Actually, the Browns had a play in which their offensive linemen would basically fall down. The idea was to get them out of Jim Brown's way.

dallmav · 10-27-2002, 11:34 PM

Let Me help all of you negative boys that keep saying that emmitt had the best line in football. Well, no one on dallas's o-line went to the pro bowl until after emmitt got there. Emmitt is what got the offensive line their recognition as being great. So you go elsewhere with his offensive was that great, he made them look that great. If ya need proof, Jimmy Johnson said so on the NFL SHOW. The second part of the Jimmy interview is on this week.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 11:34 PM

I think what I take away from all of this is that the olines and great backs compliment each other. Since the cowboys had nobody on the probowl the first year emmitt was there, he must have been something pretty special.

If I could check the oline starters for brown, dickerson, payton, you would probably seem something similar.

I think I would like to see ghostface show me the probowl stats. Mffl can double check them. ;^)

As far as that silly fall-down play, I would really like to see that in print somewhere.

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 11:43 PM

The Bears weren't an awful team, they were average during Payton's early career but certainly not awful.
===
1975 Chicago 4-10 Payton 679 yards
1976 Chicago 7-7 Payton 1390 yards
1977 Chicago 9-5 Payton 1852 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1978 Chicago 7-9 Payton 1395 yards
1979 Chicago 10-6 Payton 1610 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1980 Chicago 7-9 Payton 1460 yards
1981 Chicago 6-10 Payton 1222 yards
1982 Chicago 3-6 148 Payton 596 yards (strike shortened year)
1983 Chicago 8-8 314 Payton 1421 yards
1984 Chicago 10-6 381 Payton 1684 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1985 Chicago 15-1 324 Payton 1551 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1986 Chicago 14-2 321 Payton 1333 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1987 Chicago 11-4 146 Payton 533 yards (Bears make the playoffs)

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 11:46 PM

It is a bit shocking for me to see Cowboys fans downplay the strength upon which their championship foundation was built upon. That line flat-out dominated people to the point that Emmitt was rarely ever touched until he was 2-3 yards past the line of scrimmage. Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Step and Donaldson were all nearly technically flawless at the height of their playing days and guys like Kevin Gogan, Erik Williams and Mark Tuinei were ferocious competitors who dominated the likes of guys like Reggie White even.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 11:48 PM

MFFL... Boy these folks sure throw out some smack. It's frustrating to have to re-check these folks stats.

And wow, lookie there, paytons big seasons were when the bears were making the playoffs. He must have had a great oline and had an irvin/aikman helping him out. ;^)

Numbers are about all there are to measure these folks, of course heart, desire also plays there, but probably only to get the numbers.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 11:51 PM

<< It is a bit shocking for me to see Cowboys fans downplay the strength upon which their championship foundation was built upon. >>

Quit bringing this junk unless you can bring the ratings/rankings/pro bowls of the chicago's line. You are bringing nothing (at least nothing that is a true statement) to this debate. Don't bring any more falsehoods here.

Does this one sound familiar:

<< Also, the Bears were not just bad during most of Payton's time, they were horrible. Walter only played on 2 winning teams prior to the 1985 Super Bowl, so don't fault him for having poor teammates unless he was doubling as the Bear's GM. >>

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 11:52 PM

<< Pro-Bowl Lineman Emmitt ran behind:

Gogan, Stepnowski, Allen, Williams, Tuinei, Donaldson, Newton >>

Gogan never made the Pro Bowl as a Cowboy. Only 6. 7 if you count Moose.

===
But the Bears were the Bears. Until they started winning big, they didn't get any recognition. The Cowboys are huge even when they aren't winning and they are the biggest team in football when they are winning. Donaldson never deserved to make the Pro Bowl - he only made it because he was a Cowboy.

dude1394 · 10-27-2002, 11:55 PM

MFFL Thanks for exposing all of the false statistics that were used in this debate tonight. I'll have to watch for the posters facts in the future. Over and out and....

Emmitt Smith is the best running back in football history. Just look it up, he's the one on top of the rankings. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Ghost Face · 10-27-2002, 11:57 PM

<< The Bears weren't an awful team, they were average during Payton's early career but certainly not awful.
===
1975 Chicago 4-10 Payton 679 yards
1976 Chicago 7-7 Payton 1390 yards
1977 Chicago 9-5 Payton 1852 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1978 Chicago 7-9 Payton 1395 yards
1979 Chicago 10-6 Payton 1610 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1980 Chicago 7-9 Payton 1460 yards
1981 Chicago 6-10 Payton 1222 yards
1982 Chicago 3-6 148 Payton 596 yards (strike shortened year)
1983 Chicago 8-8 314 Payton 1421 yards
1984 Chicago 10-6 381 Payton 1684 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1985 Chicago 15-1 324 Payton 1551 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1986 Chicago 14-2 321 Payton 1333 yards (Bears make the playoffs)
1987 Chicago 11-4 146 Payton 533 yards (Bears make the playoffs) >>

From 1976-1981, Payton averaged 1,488 yards while the Bears average W-L% was .500 so they weren't terrible, but they definatley were a one man show unlike the 90's Cowboys

MFFL · 10-27-2002, 11:57 PM

<< It is a bit shocking for me to see Cowboys fans downplay the strength upon which their championship foundation was built upon. That line flat-out dominated people to the point that Emmitt was rarely ever touched until he was 2-3 yards past the line of scrimmage. Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Step and Donaldson were all nearly technically flawless at the height of their playing days and guys like Kevin Gogan, Erik Williams and Mark Tuinei were ferocious competitors who dominated the likes of guys like Reggie White even. >>

The Cowboys dominance in the 1990's was centered around Emmitt. He would ALWAYS hit the hole - the linemen had confidence that if they would even get a crease that Emmitt would be there.

I think it's funny that Tuinei and Newton toiled in relative obscurity for several years with the Dorsett and Walker as the running backs. Never a hint of dominance. But somehow they hit their stride when Emmitt got there?

MFFL · 10-28-2002, 12:01 AM

<< MFFL Thanks for exposing all of the false statistics that were used in this debate tonight. >>

No problem. I love NBA basketball but I live for NFL football.

<< Over and out and.... >>

I'm out too. Thanks for helping out.

Ghost Face · 10-28-2002, 12:05 AM

<< MFFL... Boy these folks sure throw out some smack. It's frustrating to have to re-check these folks stats.

And wow, lookie there, paytons big seasons were when the bears were making the playoffs. He must have had a great oline and had an irvin/aikman helping him out. ;^)

Numbers are about all there are to measure these folks, of course heart, desire also plays there, but probably only to get the numbers. >>

Saying 2 winning seasons instead of 3 was an honest mistake, not an attempt to rewrite history. I have brought lots of relevant info to this debate, while you chose to ignore most of it in favor of attacking the other guy who disagreed with you(who also brought little factually to the table).

From a total yardage persepctive, Walter's best seasons (2000+) came in 1977(made playoffs), 1980, 1983 & 1984(made playoffs) which were all prior to the Super Bowl year and the still-dominant 1986 team (remember the Monsters of the Midway?). Having a stellar defense allowed a less-able Payton to rack up yards and carries much like the Boys D did for Emmitt who was in his prime.

Ghost Face · 10-28-2002, 12:11 AM

<<

<< It is a bit shocking for me to see Cowboys fans downplay the strength upon which their championship foundation was built upon. That line flat-out dominated people to the point that Emmitt was rarely ever touched until he was 2-3 yards past the line of scrimmage. Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Step and Donaldson were all nearly technically flawless at the height of their playing days and guys like Kevin Gogan, Erik Williams and Mark Tuinei were ferocious competitors who dominated the likes of guys like Reggie White even. >>

The Cowboys dominance in the 1990's was centered around Emmitt. He would ALWAYS hit the hole - the linemen had confidence that if they would even get a crease that Emmitt would be there.

I think it's funny that Tuinei and Newton toiled in relative obscurity for several years with the Dorsett and Walker as the running backs. Never a hint of dominance. But somehow they hit their stride when Emmitt got there? >>

Those guys were still developing and learning to play as a unit. Emmitt just helped to accelerate their development and accentuate their great skills. Lineman have a relatively short shelf life and guys like Nate and Mark hit their stride at the perfect time. Their growth as players could be attributed to many other things other than just Emmitt's arrival and apparently they made Herschel look good enough for Minnesota to mortgage their franchise for him in return.

MavsRich · 10-28-2002, 12:14 AM

The hosts of PTI on ESPN both had Emmitt ahead of Walter in their rankings. Wilbon had him 2nd, only behind Jim Brown and Kornheiser(sp?) had him 3rd behind Brown and Gale Seyers(sp?). I do not know if I mixed the 2 up, but for what it's worth they both have E.Smith ahead of Sweetness ranked in the top 3.

TheKid · 10-28-2002, 12:54 PM

Let Me help all of you negative boys that keep saying that emmitt had the best line in football. Well, no one on dallas's o-line went to the pro bowl until after emmitt got there. Emmitt is what got the offensive line their recognition as being great. So you go elsewhere with his offensive was that great, he made them look that great. If ya need proof, Jimmy Johnson said so on the NFL SHOW. The second part of the Jimmy interview is on this week.

Well maybe the reason no one went to the pro-bowl had something to do with the team being terrible before Emmitt got there... It took them time to develop, because until that offensive line developed, Emmitt didn't go to a pro-bowl either, depends on how you want to look at it. It's the same argument, Pippen never won a championship without Jordan however on the same hand never won a championship without Pippen also.

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. I see alot of posts here and biasness also. Would you all think Emmitt was as great if he was a Giant, Bronco or 49er???? I doubt it. If Barry was a Cowboy, I'd guarantee EVERY PERSON here would be saying the same thing about him, that he's the greatest because his heart, etc. etc.

No one is saying Emmitt is bad, actually the thread started out saying he was the 6th best ever. NOW maybe he's NOT that bad (however in all honesty, I think he's the 5th best) but you all make it seem like saying he's the 5th best is a slight of him....... NO IT'S NOT!!!!! It's still giving him his props. Just because he has the most yardage doesn't make him the best. Atleast not in my eyes. It didn't make Payton the best in my eyes.

I can argue with EVERYONE FOR DAYS about this but you all aren't going to change your mind so I won't bother... However I don't think Reeds statement was as far off the wall as some of you may think. To be considered (in my eyes) in the Top 10 best running backs of all time is pretty damn good. My favorite running backs would NEVER been mentioned in the top 10 (OJ Anderson and Joe Morris). So be happy your favorite running back is considered among the GREATEST to ever play the game!!!!!

dude1394 · 10-28-2002, 02:44 PM

TheKid.... Reasoned response, and saying that payton, brown, sanders is behind emmitt is NOT a slight to them either... ;^)

TheKid · 10-28-2002, 04:04 PM

I wouldn't think it was a slight of them.. I don't get that upset when people say Emmitt is the best, I just don't agree with them. It's not like it's a CRAZY statement, it's just that I don't agree with it. The same way many don't agree with me when I say I think it's Jim Brown and I do think Barry was a better back than Emmitt but that's just my opinion.

My top 5 is

1. Jim Brown
2. Barry Sanders
3. Walter Payton
4. OJ Simpson
5. Emmitt Smith