'Genuine' Spurs welcome Finley

[Dirkenstien]

If Dirk were cut with the amnesty, people would be calling for Cuban's head.

You're comparing an aging guard to a top five power forward in his prime? That argument is off base.

[DelNegro]

If it wasn't his priority to do what's best for the team in the first place, then why would we want him here?

You wouldn't. And the Spurs are happy that you didn't.

Don't forget that Cuban gave him a more than generous contract which exceeded $100-milionl not too long ago. That is a lot of money for a player drawing further and further away from his prime.

The list of people Cuban has given a more than generous contract to is hardly an exclusive one.

[MrCheerios]

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien
You're comparing an aging guard to a top five power forward in his prime? That argument is off base.

No, I'm not. I hate to bring them up because they're almost obsessive, but Spurs fans loved Robinson even when he became a liability on both ends of the floor. They were extremely upset with the Rose/Mohammad trade, despite the fact that it brought them a young, 7ft center who was desperately needed in exchange for an overpaid, undersized, and aging PF that was not. Mohammad is good and they liked what he could bring, but they just hated losing a player. They appreciate all their former players, even Derek Anderson who had a childish spat with their management. The only person I see them not liking is Nesterovic, and they don't even bash him, they just admit that they don't need him. But they don't call him worthless, they don't call him a liability, and they don't want him cut.

Contrast their views toward Rasho with our views toward Finley, who was actually the backbone of our team for awhile, and you'll see why I call mavs fans unappreciative. We lost Fin for nothing and were glad for it. They lose bad players for good ones and are sad. See the difference? Even kings fans are more appreciative, and they're the biggest bandwagoners in the NBA. They still love Christie and Webber and those guys are way past their prime. Even though they were happy with the trades that got rid of those players kings fans have nothing but good to say about them. We're cut out of a different cloth.

[Dirkenstien]

You wouldn't. And the Spurs are happy that you didn't.

No, the reason the Spurs are happy is because Finley decided he would now change his priorities after being let go. Pop informed him that he would be no more than a bench player with San Antonio and has been reported as initially doubting Finley's decision to do so.

The list of people Cuban has given a more than generous contract to is hardly an exclusive one.

That scarcely negates the fact that he was given one.

[Dirkenstien]

No, I'm not.

Yes, Mr. Cheerios, you are.

And now your comparing Finley's tenure with the Mavericks to one of the greatest players to ever play the game in David Robinson.

Let's see... Robinson brought San Antonio two championships, won Rookie Of the Year, was named All NBA First-Team four times, was named All Defensive First-Team four times, was named Defensive Player of the Year in '02, was named NBA MVP in '95, was part of the 1992 US Olympic Dream Team, led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots three separate seasons, won the NBA Sportsmanship Award in 2001, and was a 10-time NBA All-Star.

Once again, the argument is off base.

[DelNegro]

No, the reason the Spurs are happy is because Finley decided he would now change his priorities after being let go. Pop informed him that he would be no more than a bench player with San Antonio and has been reported as initially doubting Finley's decision to do so.

Okay, so the guy is looking to give as big a one fingered salute to Mark Cuban as he can by going to SA. Even if he did take a lesser role last year and did everything you had wanted y'all were going to cut him anyways. I know why he's bitter. I just find it surprising that so many of you are so quick to turn on the guy who defined your franchise for almost a decade.

That scarcely negates the fact that he was given one.

Which I think is a safe bet to say Mav fans were completely okay with at the time.

[Bayliss]

So what is Finley doing different than Dell Curry did in Charlotte?

Well, Thank you for not answering the question.

[MrCheerios]

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien

Yes, Mr. Cheerios, you are.

You know what? You're absolutely right. We were absolutely fair and just in cutting our former franchise player. I mean, what team wouldn't? If Reggie Miller hadn't retired, the I'm sure Pacers would have cut him anyway. And as fans, we shouldn't place any value on what a player's done for us in the past, but on what he can do in the here and now. If you didn't get any scoring titles or rings or any other accolades, you never meant anything to us. Again, just like Reggie Miller to Pacers fans. Boy, I bet they're glad his jumpshooting ass is outta there. If you're slightly over the hill, we'll just bash you all day and forget all your former contributions. And when you're forced to leave the team against your will, we'll still bash you all day long.

I can't wait to see what you say about Stack in two years. Or JET in seven. Or Dirk in ten. I guess there's no such thing as fan favorites anymore, only MVP candidates.

[alby]

Originally posted by: DevinHarriswillstart
I have the NBA 06 game for PSP and it has Finley starting at the small forward spot over Bruce Bowen.

All I know, Michael Finley has been the most overrated player in history when it comes to video games the last 5 years.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: MrCheerios
If Dirk were cut with the amnesty, people would be calling for Cuban's head. The outrage would be without limits.

Maybe, just MAYBE that's because Dirk is our best player, an MVP canidate, first team all-NBA, and we're going nowhere without him... If Michael Finley had been waived when he was at the top of his game, I imagine everyone else here would be pissed about it too.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: madape
The current administration treated all those players like dirt. I'll be pulling for Nash and Finley to win a championship because they deserve it. Cuban doesn't deserve shit... except maybe a good embarassing ass kicking, which is what he'll get. I'll be back on the bandwagon when the dude sells the team.

Ape, if you're hatred of Cuban negates your desire to see the Mavericks win, I'd hardly consider you a Mavs fan at all. I've never liked Jerry Jones. I loved Jimmy Johnson, and IMO, Jerry treated him like shit. However, the fact that this man owns the Cowboys, never EVER caused me to take pleasure in seeing the Cowboys lose.

Besides, if this team does win a championship, I think you'll have to concede that Cuban deserves it, because it will have happened under his watch. I don't like Jerry Jones, but I can hardly say that he doesn't "deserve" the SuperBowl championships that the Cowboys won with him as the team's owner... Besides, if you're waiting for Cuban to sell the team, you might wanna just go ahead and become a full-time Spurs/Suns fan, because it ain't gonna happen.

[chumdawg]

Lookit. Fans...are...the...life...BLOOD of a sports franchise. If they decide to defect in large margins, the franchise does suffer. So this idea that fans don't have a "vote," if you will, does not sit right with me.

I feel you on the Jimmy love. I loved him, too. But #1, Jerry didn't exactly treat him like shit. He gave him a high-profile job at a time when guys like him (college coaches) just didn't get high-profile jobs. He allowed him to run the franchise, for the most part. And when the Cowboys had success, make no mistake that Jimmy shared in it. He is still a relevant personality today because of those years. The Hurricanes years wouldn't have been enough, nor would have the Dolphins years.

When Jerry fired him, there was a backlash. A lot of the people who had come around to the Cowboys under Jones were upset about it. And yes, when Switzer won his championship, a lot of people felt he didn't deserve it.

But still and all, we are talking about two different things. Jones never sent Aikman to a contender over money, only to watch Aikman win the MVP in the next year. I'm sorry, but you can wrap that in whatever you want to wrap it in, but it is still the laughingstock that hangs on Cuban's neck.

But basketball differs from football in one very big way, which is that the individual players each have much more signifigance. When you jack with the personnel in basketball, it has very profound immediate impacts on your team. (Or weren't you watching, when a team on the brink of a title became an also-ran in the summer of '04?)

Sometimes sports fans in Dallas blow my mind. They loooooove to complain about an East Coast bias. As if their team isn't any less of a team because of where it's based. Well, you want to know something? If a New York or Philadelphia or Boston team had balked at paying an MVP pooint guard what he obviously was worth, then fans in those cities would have cried foul so loud you could hear it all the way down here.

But what do fans in Dallas do? They applaud the owner for his financial wherewithal.

Fans in Dallas get exactly what they deserve. Which is to say: owners that take advantage of their naivete, fellow fans who care more about the game presentation than about the game itself, and a media that dismisses them as second-tier.

And yet they act so wounded.

[MrCheerios]

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien

And now your comparing Finley's tenure with the Mavericks to one of the greatest players to ever play the game in David Robinson.

BTW, it's very convenient of you to read the Robinson part of my post, which was supposed to be as an example of important players to a franchise and not a comparison of player talent, and then completely ignore the rest of the players I brought up. What about Malik Rose, Doug Christie, or Chris Webber? None of those guys are Robinson-level either. Does that stop fans of their old teams from loving them?

Do you know what most NBA fans think of Christie? Washed up and old. He went to the one of the king's rivals: Dallas. But do you know that most Kings fans still love him? They still want him to "come home." They write it in their signs. Dallas fans don't want former players to come home. We trash the memory of our former players. But you're making us out to be the most grateful fans in the NBA. We're not.

[madape]

I'd classify myself not as a "former" mavs fan, but a "protesting" Mavs fan. I beleive that the powers that be in this franchise are doing their best to tear this team apart. I'm going to excersize my right to civil disobedience until the powers that be relenquish control to someone who will run it with some semblance of sanity. Incompetence combined with hubris is no way to acheive success.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
Lookit. Fans...are...the...life...BLOOD of a sports franchise. If they decide to defect in large margins, the franchise does suffer. So this idea that fans don't have a "vote," if you will, does not sit right with me.

I feel you on the Jimmy love. I loved him, too. But #1, Jerry didn't exactly treat him like shit. He gave him a high-profile job at a time when guys like him (college coaches) just didn't get high-profile jobs. He allowed him to run the franchise, for the most part. And when the Cowboys had success, make no mistake that Jimmy shared in it. He is still a relevant personality today because of those years. The Hurricanes years wouldn't have been enough, nor would have the Dolphins years.

When Jerry fired him, there was a backlash. A lot of the people who had come around to the Cowboys under Jones were upset about it. And yes, when Switzer won his championship, a lot of people felt he didn't deserve it.

But still and all, we are talking about two different things. Jones never sent Aikman to a contender over money, only to watch Aikman win the MVP in the next year. I'm sorry, but you can wrap that in whatever you want to wrap it in, but it is still the laughingstock that hangs on Cuban's neck.

But basketball differs from football in one very big way, which is that the individual players each have much more signifigance. When you jack with the personnel in basketball, it has very profound immediate impacts on your team. (Or weren't you watching, when a team on the brink of a title became an also-ran in the summer of '04?)

Sometimes sports fans in Dallas blow my mind. They loooooove to complain about an East Coast bias. As if their team isn't any less of a team because of where it's based. Well, you want to know something? If a New York or Philadelphia or Boston team had balked at paying an MVP pooint guard what he obviously was worth, then fans in those cities would have cried foul so loud you could hear it all the way down here.

But what do fans in Dallas do? They applaud the owner for his financial wherewithal.

Fans in Dallas get exactly what they deserve. Which is to say: owners that take advantage of their naivete, fellow fans who care more about the game presentation than about the game itself, and a media that dismisses them as second-tier.

And yet they act so wounded.

Chum, you raise some good points in the Cuban/Jerry debate, but it really doesn't matter. However, it doesn't really matter, because now we're just starting a whole different topic. My original point was, I never liked Jerry Jones, but that never caused me to want the Cowboys to lose.... because I'm a Cowboys Fan. If one wishes to see the Mavericks lose because they don't like the teams owner, I can hardly consider that person a Mavs fan.

Edit: Btw, you say that Jerry didn't treat Jimmy like shit, and that's fair enough. But on the flipside, one could also argue that Cuban didn't Finley, Nash, Nellie, or anyone else like shit either. Actually, the only person I thought got kinda screwed over was Van Exel, but I thought that trade made sense at the time. Oh well.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: madape
I'd classify myself not as a "former" mavs fan, but a "protesting" Mavs fan. I beleive that the powers that be in this franchise are doing their best to tear this team apart.

If Cuban his best to "tear this team apart," then he's certainly doing a very shitty job considering the fact that our franchise player is still here, and how much talent has come in these past two seasons. Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Keith Van Horn... not guys who would've been brought in, I think, if Cuban was trying to "tear the team apart." You may hate Erick Dampier, but he was essential to this team's success last year (and yes, as well as its shortcomings in the playoffs, but there's plenty of blame to go around.) All of your hate is made that much more irrational by the fact that we had the second best regular season record in franchise history last year.

And you say we'll finish out of the playoffs this year? Behind the Lakers and Warriors you say? Didn't you say we'd finish 42-40 last year? [img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Dirkenstien

Odd how he is willing to do that for another team, yet when he was with the Mavs that just wasn't an option.

Also, you're getting ahead of yourself. The Spurs do not need Fin to be anything. They won a championship without him and would be just as much the favorite to win again if he were not there.

What makes you think FInley wouldn't do that for the Mavs? I hope your head isn't full of the bs people posted on this site about Finley because it was all untrue. Besides, Finley was released due to the amnesty clause according to Mark Cuban. Not his play.

And how am I getting ahead of myself? Spurs need Finley to fill a role and be successful in that role. You think the Spurs can just stand pact while other teams around the league get better? I don't think so. Teams have improved and the Spurs need to do the same.

[FilthyFinMavs]

If Cuban his best to "tear this team apart," then he's certainly doing a very shitty job considering the fact that our franchise player is still here, and how much talent has come in these past two seasons. Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Keith Van Horn... not guys who would've been brought in, I think, if Cuban was trying to "tear the team apart." You may hate Erick Dampier, but he was essential to this team's success last year (and yes, as well as its shortcomings in the playoffs, but there's plenty of blame to go around.) All of your hate is made that much more irrational by the fact that we had the second best regular season record in franchise history last year.

The way our franchise is being ran Keith Van Horn, JET and Stackhouse will all be gone for nothin' in the next 2 years.

[madape]

Yeah... and don't get too attatched to Dirk either. He's already promised to "explore his free agent options" when his contract expires. Hell, I would too. If he doesn't leave on his own accord, he'll probably be traded to the Warriors, Clipprers, or some other God forsaken hellhole. It's happened to everyone else on this team. Nash and Finley are the lucky ones. They left before Cubes could trade them and were able to choose their own destinations. If Dirk's smart, he would do the same. Do you really wonder why Finley claimed that every Maverick is currently trying to "Get the hell out of Dodge"?

[DirkGoesNuclear]

[q.....Finley was released due to the amnesty clause according to Mark Cuban. Not his play.
q]

If Finley had played like Ray Allen did last season, he would still be in a Mav's uni.

[Five-ofan]

Nash wasnt "clearly worth what he got paid" when he got that contract. As I recall there was a bunch of head scratching over what the suns were thinking. He turned out to be worth it for one year so far. The question was never would he be worth it last year or this year but going forward. He has never had an mvp level season in his career. Fin wasnt worth what he was getting paid and yes you do have to forget past contributions. That is just the way it is. Fin was a slightly lesser version of Mitch Richmond. He ended his career on the lakers to get a ring that he had nothing to do with. Fin has more left than Richmond did when he signed with the lakers but its a similar situation.

As a fan it sucks because I was a HUGE Nash fan and am actually happy he won the mvp because they just refuse to give it to Dirk. I am also a big Fin fan. I dont see how anyone who was a mavs fan in the dark days could not have a soft spot for him. He does not need to be mentioned in the same sentence as Drob or Dirk though. The reason spurs fans are less bitter is that they have less to be bitter about. They are one of the luckiest franchise in the nba. Lets get the first pick and draft a franchise big. Ok lets do it again while we still have the last one. The only luckier team was Houston with Akeem and sampson but Sampson getting hurt defeats that luck. Good lord they would have been incredible if he hadnt. Brings up an interesting idea. I dont think the bad boys would have ever won a title if he hadnt. That would have prevented the crappy basketball that followed them. Though really that type of basketball was empowered by Rileys Knicks. It was iniated by the bad boys. Better question. Would Jordans Bulls have beaten them? I think Jordan had 2 or 3 rings with Hakeem having 6 or 8 if Sampson never gets hurt. Just interesting idea. I know thats way off topic but its 213. Oh well.

[stuportremens]

^^ It's stupid to think that only MVP-type players are worth Nash's contract.
Look around and you'll see lots of players that are worse than Nash earning the same or more money.

If you only look at the contracts Cuban signed, I think it's pretty obvious that both Raef and Damp have both gotten contracts of a similar caliber and neither is anywhere the player nash is. And Nash clearly wasn't much worse than Finley (I happen think he was the better player in the last 4 years or so), so trying to go cheap on Nash and offering him much less money than either Fin or Raef (and just a little later Dampier) got was out of proportion. And in hindsight it was one of the more stupid decisions that NBA owners have made.

Oh, and cutting Fin might have benefitted Cuban's pockets, but I doubt that it helps the Mavs very much. We'll see what happens when Dirk's current contract is up.

[Murphy3]

Finley still plays? I thought he retired?

[Five-ofan]

There are worse players than nash that make more and he is worth what he is getting right now. That wasnt the question. The question was would he be worth it in 2 years? I doubt he will. I just said that it wasnt clearly known that he was worth what he got. I can find some articles stating as much if you wish.

[alby]

Raef and Dampier are centers. If you understand the structure of the NBA, you would realize that centers are at a much higher premium and thus cost more to buy.

[Dirkenstien]

What makes you think FInley wouldn't do that for the Mavs?

Probably the fact that he never did it for the Mavs.

And as fans, we shouldn't place any value on what a player's done for us in the past, but on what he can do in the here and now.

No one is saying they are not thankful for what Finley had done for this franchise in the past, rather, there comes a point when you suck up your pride and do what's best for the team. Finley could not do that and was not living up to his contract.

They were extremely upset with the Rose/Mohammad trade, despite the fact that it brought them a young, 7ft center who was desperately needed in exchange for an overpaid, undersized, and aging PF that was not.

Surely you haven't forgotten the fact that Rose was the designated "garbage man" for the San Antonio Spurs for over four seasons and through two NBA championships ('99 and '03). Any time fans see a piece of a team that won the championship/s for their city leave then a part of them is inclined to feel upset.

And as to the argument about Webber and Christie; the fans in Sac town are simply trying to hold on to the past when they were actually a pretty good team. Can you blame them for wanting that type of environment back?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

The way our franchise is being ran Keith Van Horn, JET and Stackhouse will all be gone for nothin' in the next 2 years.

Actually, if you're going by Cuban's record... KVH, Jet, and Stack will all walk in free agency, but with the money the team saves, we'll sign quality players to replace them, and the team will actually get better for it. So even though they walk, you could hardly call them "gone for nothin" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[stuportremens]

Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Actually, if you're going by Cuban's record... KVH, Jet, and Stack will all walk in free agency, but with the money the team saves, we'll sign quality players to replace them, and the team will actually get better for it. So even though they walk, you could hardly call them "gone for nothin" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Unfortunately, this team hardly has a history of great free agent signings and considering how frequently this team trades players they don't like I don't think we'll have an easy time convincing top free agents to sign here.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: stuportremens

Unfortunately, this team hardly has a history of great free agent signings and considering how frequently this team trades players they don't like I don't think we'll have an easy time convincing top free agents to sign here.

[img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img] I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit about how the reason we've had bad luck with free agents is because of some kind of fear the players have of being traded. That's ridiculous. The only reason we've missed out on free agents is because we're painfully over the cap. And really, who are the free agents we missed out on anyway? Zo? Olowakandi? Nesterovic? Malone? Stephen Hunter? The only relavent name that comes to mind is Brad Miller, whom we never aggressively pursued anyway.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Thespiralgoeson

Actually, if you're going by Cuban's record... KVH, Jet, and Stack will all walk in free agency, but with the money the team saves, we'll sign quality players to replace them, and the team will actually get better for it. So even though they walk, you could hardly call them "gone for nothin" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Really? You mind telling me what Cuban track record you are referring to because as of right now I can't think of the Mavs signing any key free agents in free agency. Not to mention by the time KVH, JET and Stack's contracts are finished we will have to resign potential all stars Josh Howard and Devin Harris.

[FilthyFinMavs]

I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit about how the reason we've had bad luck with free agents is because of some kind of fear the players have of being traded. That's ridiculous. The only reason we've missed out on free agents is because we're painfully over the cap. And really, who are the free agents we missed out on anyway? Zo? Olowakandi? Nesterovic? Malone? Stephen Hunter? The only relavent name that comes to mind is Brad Miller, whom we never aggressively pursued anyway.

That's what makes it worse. We can't even obtain players the caliber of Kandi man or guys who are on their way out of the door like Zo and Malone.

[Bayliss]

I recall signing Diop, and Christie.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

That's what makes it worse. We can't even obtain players the caliber of Kandi man or guys who are on their way out of the door like Zo and Malone.

We never aggressively pursued Kandi or Malone, and Zo committed to us, but bailed because he wanted to go easier on his body by playing in the east. None of this had anything to do with players being afraid to come to Dallas because of "loyalty".

Really? You mind telling me what Cuban track record you are referring to because as of right now I can't think of the Mavs signing any key free agents in free agency. Not to mention by the time KVH, JET and Stack's contracts are finished we will have to resign potential all stars Josh Howard and Devin Harris

I said they would be replaced, I never said anything about them being replaced through free agent signings. So let's see, the record:

Nash leaves, we trade for Jet. Need a backup point and a swingman, we trade for draft rights to Devin and Stack, need someone to spell Dirk... trade for KVH. Need a center, aquire Damp via sign-and-trade. Finley's waived, we pick up Christie. Shawn retires, we pick up Diop. Pretty solid record going by this past season IMO.

[FilthyFinMavs]

So if we get rid of Stack, KVH and JET then who would we trade to their spots? We'd have no trade assets unless you want to get rid of our younger players like Josh and Harris.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
So if we get rid of Stack, KVH and JET then who would we trade to their spots? We'd have no trade assets unless you want to get rid of our younger players like Josh and Harris.

Hey, I never said I knew how it would work out... just that it would. And I think you took my original post a little too seriously. I was half-joking really, hence the "[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]"