Bush Against Womens Rights

[vinnieponte]

Everyone here is against so called "murder" right. So then is everyone here against Laura Bush? She did kill someone when she was 17. All the republican's here have said that anyone whom kills should be punished etc etc, so what about your favorite first lady?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e1698.htm

Mrs. Bush ran stop sign in fatal crash
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Details in a 1963 accident report say that Laura Bush, then 17, ran a stop sign in the Texas crash that killed a friend in another car. The report, adding information to previous reports of the crash, was released to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Mrs. Bush now is the wife of Republican presidential nominee-to-be George W. Bush, the Texas governor.

''It was a very tragic accident that deeply affected the families and was very painful for all involved, including the community at large,'' said Mrs. Bush's spokesman, Andrew Malcolm. ''To this day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about it.''

She did say in March, when asked at a campaign stop about the crash, ''I know this as an adult, and even more as a parent, it was crushing ... for the family involved and for me as well.''

There had been published accounts of the accident, but city officials had declined to release the records because those involved were under 18. The police report was released Wednesday in response to an open-records request that was submitted to Midland officials in March.

According to the two-page accident report, Laura Welch was driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m. on Nov. 6, 1963, when she drove into an intersection and struck a Corvair sedan driven by 17-year-old Michael Douglas.

Although previous news accounts have reported Douglas was thrown from the car and broke his neck, those details were not in the report.

The speed of Laura Bush's car was illegible on the report. The speed limit for the road was 55.

Laura Bush and her passenger, Judy Dykes, also 17, were taken to a hospital and treated for minor injuries, according to an accident account printed at the time in the Midland Reporter-Telegram.

The police report indicates no charges were filed. That section of the report was left blank.

''As far as we know, no charges were filed,'' said Midland city attorney Keith Stretcher. ''I don't think it's unusual that charges weren't filed.''

Election news index

[madape]

That's an unfortunate story vinnie, one that I was not aware of. Of course, there is a big difference between an unfortunate car accident and the purposeful termination of a defenseless child.

[mavsman55]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
A womens right to choose is her right and Bush is against it.

What about the baby's choice? What about the innocent life ruined due to personal inconenience/irresponsibility from the mother?

Should't the one who's getting killed have a choice over the mother?

You keep saying things like "This is America, they are taking our choices away!!"... nobody should have a "choice" as to whether or not they want to murder someone.

If I "choose" to murder my neighbor, is that OK since it's my choice and that's what America's all about? Pathetic.

[vinnieponte]

Originally posted by: mavsman55

What about the baby's choice? What about the innocent life ruined due to personal inconenience/irresponsibility from the mother?

Should't the one who's getting killed have a choice over the mother?

You keep saying things like "This is America, they are taking our choices away!!"... nobody should have a "choice" as to whether or not they want to murder someone.

If I "choose" to murder my neighbor, is that OK since it's my choice and that's what America's all about? Pathetic.

I'm not saying hey go kill your neighbor you idiot. I'm saying it is still LEGAL to have an abortion, and the right to have that choice is what is at stake.

[kg_veteran]

Mavsman55 is exactly right. What about the baby's choice? Does she have a choice whether or not to be torn into pieces by a vacuum? Does she have a choice whether or not to be pried from her mother's womb with forceps and thrown into a trash can?

I'm tired of hearing the mantra about a "woman's right to choose." It shows how badly the establishment has distorted logic when it comes to abortion. There are literally millions of young women who have been given no choice at all regarding whether they live or die a horrible death.

[vinnieponte]

I've spoken, and all of you have spoken about this issue, but even a bigger issue is; I see only us Men speaking about this. We need some womens insight on this issue. Abortion is legal and so is choice. I doubt this law will ever be overturned, but republicans can keep trying.

[kg_veteran]

Answer my question, Vinnie.

Should the baby have a choice?

[vinnieponte]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Answer my question, Vinnie.

Should the baby have a choice?

being pregnant for 3-6 weeks isn't carrying a baby, therefore the choice isn't about killing a "baby"

[u2sarajevo]

Yes.... yes it is vinnie.

[vinnieponte]

I'm pro-choice and your obviously pro-life, and as we sit in the U.S.A. abortions are legal. If you want to limit womens choices, go home and tell your wife to shut up. Otherwise deal with it

[AnMan21]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte

being pregnant for 3-6 weeks isn't carrying a baby, therefore the choice isn't about killing a "baby"

Being pregnant is defined as carrying unborn young within the body - so yes, it is killing a baby.

Furthermore, the woman's "choice" was made when she and her boyfriend decided to not use a form of birth control. Killing an innocent, unborn baby who doesn't have a choice is a horrible and selfish way to escape the consequences of ones actions.

[DwD]

I hate the phrase "right to choose" - right to choose what? to kill or keep a baby? I have had a baby 8 months ago. Do you know what a baby looks like at 8-weeks of age? He has a heart that you can see is beating on the ultrasound. At 12-weeks, when most abortions are done I saw my baby do somersaults in the ultrasound and I felt him move in stomach. I could hear his heartbeat loud and clear at 14-weeks.

How many women do you think would still choose to abort a child if given teh choice to see them just once via ultrasound?

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: DwD
I hate the phrase "right to choose" - right to choose what? to kill or keep a baby? I have had a baby 8 months ago. Do you know what a baby looks like at 8-weeks of age? He has a heart that you can see is beating on the ultrasound. At 12-weeks, when most abortions are done I saw my baby do somersaults in the ultrasound and I felt him move in stomach. I could hear his heartbeat loud and clear at 14-weeks.

How many women do you think would still choose to abort a child if given teh choice to see them just once via ultrasound?

DwD, thanks for adding a woman's perspective. Could anyone convince you that your child was not a person, alive inside your womb?

[DwD]

KG, he was my baby the minute I saw a little blob of cells in the ultrasound at 4-weeks. I think it should be mandatory for women to see ultrasounds before abortions just so they realize the enormity of what they are about to do. I don't think most women realize it till it is done. Even if they choose to go ahead with it after they see the tiny being, they are atleast doing it with their eyes open. There is a reason why most abortion providers don't show the women the ultrasound before the procedure.

[vinnieponte]

Thank you dwd for your insight. The whole thread isn't based upon what is right vs. wrong. Its about the freedom of choice v.s no choice. If you want to have a baby then go ahead, and if a "mistake" happens like the condom broke, or your 16, etc,etc, and don't/can't have the baby, then don't. It's a matter of choice no matter republican, democrat, or independent, or any religion. It's freedom to decide and live your life, not what a politician or religious fanatic think you should do or live your life!

[AnMan21]

i have no sympathy for the 16 year old that gets pregnant. if you're not ready to deal with the consequences of an adult relationship, then you're not ready to have sex. period. the choice all of us get to make when we have sex is whether or not to use birth control methods. when we refuse that right, then we should be forced to live with the outcome. if you're young and think you can't raise a child, then put it up for adoption - there are plenty of couples out there that want a baby and can't have one. if the condom breaks, yes, that's unfortunate - but condoms are not fool proof even when used properly and if you don't know that then, again, you're not ready for an adult relationship.

[vinnieponte]

I guess some people will never understand this thread, read my previous post

[FishForLunch]

There is a reason why most people avoid discussing abortion, it is something deeply emotional and should not be used for political gain.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
Everyone here is against so called "murder" right. So then is everyone here against Laura Bush? She did kill someone when she was 17. All the republican's here have said that anyone whom kills should be punished etc etc, so what about your favorite first lady?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e1698.htm

Mrs. Bush ran stop sign in fatal crash
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Details in a 1963 accident report say that Laura Bush, then 17, ran a stop sign in the Texas crash that killed a friend in another car. The report, adding information to previous reports of the crash, was released to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Mrs. Bush now is the wife of Republican presidential nominee-to-be George W. Bush, the Texas governor.

''It was a very tragic accident that deeply affected the families and was very painful for all involved, including the community at large,'' said Mrs. Bush's spokesman, Andrew Malcolm. ''To this day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about it.''

She did say in March, when asked at a campaign stop about the crash, ''I know this as an adult, and even more as a parent, it was crushing ... for the family involved and for me as well.''

There had been published accounts of the accident, but city officials had declined to release the records because those involved were under 18. The police report was released Wednesday in response to an open-records request that was submitted to Midland officials in March.

According to the two-page accident report, Laura Welch was driving her Chevrolet sedan on a clear night shortly after 8 p.m. on Nov. 6, 1963, when she drove into an intersection and struck a Corvair sedan driven by 17-year-old Michael Douglas.

Although previous news accounts have reported Douglas was thrown from the car and broke his neck, those details were not in the report.

The speed of Laura Bush's car was illegible on the report. The speed limit for the road was 55.

Laura Bush and her passenger, Judy Dykes, also 17, were taken to a hospital and treated for minor injuries, according to an accident account printed at the time in the Midland Reporter-Telegram.

The police report indicates no charges were filed. That section of the report was left blank.

''As far as we know, no charges were filed,'' said Midland city attorney Keith Stretcher. ''I don't think it's unusual that charges weren't filed.''

Election news index

Vinnie and the leftists at it again. Moral equivalence between an accident and the purposeful dis-membermant of a 9-month old child. Again no wonder that the iraqi terrorists are equated to our "founding fathers" by the left.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
Thank you dwd for your insight. The whole thread isn't based upon what is right vs. wrong. Its about the freedom of choice v.s no choice. If you want to have a baby then go ahead, and if a "mistake" happens like the condom broke, or your 16, etc,etc, and don't/can't have the baby, then don't. It's a matter of choice no matter republican, democrat, or independent, or any religion. It's freedom to decide and live your life, not what a politician or religious fanatic think you should do or live your life!

So what you wanted was NOT a womans perspective.... rather a woman that AGREED with you.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: DwD
I hate the phrase "right to choose" - right to choose what? to kill or keep a baby? I have had a baby 8 months ago. Do you know what a baby looks like at 8-weeks of age? He has a heart that you can see is beating on the ultrasound. At 12-weeks, when most abortions are done I saw my baby do somersaults in the ultrasound and I felt him move in stomach. I could hear his heartbeat loud and clear at 14-weeks.

How many women do you think would still choose to abort a child if given teh choice to see them just once via ultrasound?

Thanks for your thoughts and congratualations on your bambino!!! I wonder if vinnie will believe you, doubt it.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
Thank you dwd for your insight. The whole thread isn't based upon what is right vs. wrong. Its about the freedom of choice v.s no choice. If you want to have a baby then go ahead, and if a "mistake" happens like the condom broke, or your 16, etc,etc, and don't/can't have the baby, then don't. It's a matter of choice no matter republican, democrat, or independent, or any religion. It's freedom to decide and live your life, not what a politician or religious fanatic think you should do or live your life!

Ah wonderful, vinnie get's a woman's opinion and promptly tells her she's wrong, that it really wasn't a baby.

[DwD]

Vinnie, I am an atheist. I don't consider myself Democrat or Republican. I consider it more a moral issue than religious or political. In your post you used the word "mistake" - all I want to say is that it is not a mistake, not a choice, but a baby's life. As a woman, I am in the unique position to have in my control not just my life, but another being's life. It is not a decision to be made lightly. As soon as you stop talking about children and start using the terms mistakes and choices, you are effectively dehumanizing the babies so it is easier for you (I don't mean you vinnie, but people in general) to live with the decision of taking a life.

Look at it this way - would you kill a puppy just because you own him and he is dependent on you for food and shelter? You would think way more before doing something like that than when you advocate a very similar thing, which is taking a baby's life. Trust me, it is hard to think of something invisible in your stomach as a baby for any woman. Once you see it on the ultrasound though, it is a life-changing experience. It becomes more tangible and is not a fetus or a clump of cells anymore. It becomes your baby. A lot of women are unfortunately not provided with such services at an abortion provider. There would be a major reduction in the rates of abortion if that happened.

Lastly, how many people do you think will stop using abortion as birth control if it were not as easy to get as it is now? Isn't that better for people in general?

Dude, thank you - my son is a handful, I must confess [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[AnMan21]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
I guess some people will never understand this thread, read my previous post

i understand the thread perfectly well - you're saying it's their CHOICE. i'm saying their CHOICE was to have unprotected sex - anything after that should not be a CHOICE but a responsibility.

[Usually Lurkin]

Vinnie, do you regret the government taking away the choice that slaveowners had to sell or free their own slaves?
do you regret the government taking away the choice that husbands had to beat and rape their wives or not?
do you regret the government taking away the choice that chemical companies had about where to dump waste products?
do you regret the government taking away the choice that we all had to drive cars without insurance, without inspection?

in ouir country it is right to limit peoples freedom of choice to those choices that will not unduly hinder someone else's inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[mavsman55]

Exactly AnMan. If the woman chooses to have sex in the first place, that should be her only choice. In the rare instance of a condom breaking or a rape, maybe then abortions should be considered. But you're taking this whole "choice" idea so far that if a woman is irresponsible enough to get pregnant and kill the baby due to personal inconvenience.

What choice do you speak of vinnie? Find somewhere in the constitution where American women are given a choice as to whether or not they want to kill their children. Go for it. I dare you.

[Chiwas]

Originally posted by: AnMan21
i'm saying their CHOICE was to have unprotected sex - anything after that should not be a CHOICE but a responsibility.

Good point.