Bush Against Womens Rights

[vinnieponte]

Besides the war, the abortion issue is getting scarier IMO. We all know Dubya is cooking up something to overturn the Roe vs Wade soon, but where will that leave women? Will they now be voiceless, or even worse, Abortion will become illegal and "underground clinics" will form leaving a very scary medical risk. This will always be a lose/lose situation no matter what. I believe women have the right to choose and should never have to become criminals to make their own decisions. But america should be use to being split right down the middle. Funny, how Dubya long announced how he is a uniter, not a divider, hmmm ironic.


Abortion Foes Stage Protest of Roe V. Wade


By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush told abortion foes on Monday he shared their support for "a culture of life" and claimed progress in passing legislation to protect the vulnerable.

"We need most of all to change hearts and that is what we're doing," Bush said as anti-abortion activists marked the 32nd anniversary of the Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion with a day of rallies, protests and other activities.


The issue took on new urgency with the likelihood of a high court vacancy.


Bush addressed marchers by phone from the presidential retreat at Camp David, Md., where he had spent the weekend.


Every anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court decision, prompts demonstrations by opponents and proponents of abortion rights. Activists on both sides of the abortion issue marched in demonstrations across the country Saturday, the actual anniversary of the Jan. 23 decision.


This year there is increasing speculation about Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist's health. Three other justices have had cancer.


One or more court vacancies would give President Bush the chance to install another justice or justices who oppose the Roe decision, increasing the likelihood that at some point, the ruling could be overturned.


Bush conceded that a society "where every child is welcome...may still be some way away."


Still, he said, he was working with Congress to pass "good, solid legislation to protect the vulnerable." He cited his signing of legislation last year to outlaw certain late-term abortions.


"You know, we come from many, different backgrounds, but what unites us is our understanding that the essence of civilization is this: The strong have a duty to protect the weak," Bush said. He has said he supports a constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion, but has not actively pushed for it.


Bush also said that he would continue "seeking common ground where possible and persuading increasing numbers of our fellow citizens of the rightness of our cause. This is the path of the culture of life that we seek for our country."


On Monday, abortion opponents staged a rally before a march from the Ellipse to the Supreme Court. Other groups opposed to abortion rights were holding events on Capitol Hill.


NARAL Pro-Choice America has projected that 19 states would quickly outlaw abortion, and 19 more might follow suit, if Roe v. Wade were overturned.


Last week, Norma McCorvey, the woman known as "Jane Roe" in Roe v. Wade, asked the Supreme Court to overturn its 1973 decision.

[Usually Lurkin]

"It Was Horrible, Horrible!"

A First-Hand Account of What Goes on Inside a Chula Vista Abortion Clinic

------------------------------------------------------------------------
BY MIGUEL VÁZQUEZ

Yeni is a medical assistant and receptionist at the Clínica Médica para la Mujer de Hoy, an abortion clinic in Chula Vista. S
. . .
"I started working at the clinic in 2002. I had just graduated as a medical assistant. I had applied at a lot of places, but I didn't get a job because I didn't have any experience. Then someone told me that Sonia, an acquaintance of mine, needed someone. When I talked to her, she made it clear that it had to do with a clinic where they do abortions, but that they do other things, too. My goal was to gain at least six months' to a year's experience in the medical field. Sonia told me to go to the clinic to try to help out the doctor, and that if I couldn't take it, it was no problem, they would have me do something else. I didn't like the idea, even though having an abortion isn't something I'm unfamiliar with. I myself had an abortion a year before. Sonia had the same thing happen to her, though it wasn't as voluntary as mine. Her parents took her to get the abortion.

"I agreed to try it out," Yeni continued. "The first time I helped the doctor, I almost fainted. I couldn't see, and I couldn't hear. I was overwhelmed by the blood and the girl's screams. They took me out of there and I told Sonia that I couldn't do it, but they advised me to try it once more. By the second abortion I found that I could deal with it. The weeks went by, and even though the job is ugly, I was learning a lot about medicine.
. . .
She then continued her account. "At first I thought most of the patients would be young, single mothers, but it's not that way. The great majority are married women; say around 29 years-old, the typical woman who doesn't want another child. The ones who are separated, or don't have a man in their life, also come to us. We hardly get really young ones. I think that younger girls appreciate becoming a mother more than the ones who are on their second or third pregnancy.

. . .
When the baby is less than three months, the baby disintegrates completely. When the doctor feels that the baby has been dislodged completely, he introduces something similar to a straw. The exterior opening of the straw connects to a vacuum. Then he vacuums up everything that has broken apart. All that he vacuums goes into a jar. You see blood, and bits and pieces of tissue that look like chopped meat. It all comes out in pieces.

"This is the procedure for eight weeks or less, " she said. "When they're about 12 weeks, then the doctor takes the baby out with forceps. He takes the baby out in pieces. He checks each part and he places each one in a tray down below. When he finishes the procedure, I have to drain everything. We drain it to separate body parts from blood. We place all the parts in a jar that goes to the laboratory.

"It's impressive how well-defined they are. You can't believe what you are seeing. You see perfect little hands, tinier than those of a Barbie doll. You can see intestines, tiny ribs, their little faces, and their tiny squashed heads. You can distinguish among the parts if the baby was a boy or girl.

"It makes me so sad to see the jars. It's very hard for me to do all this. To see all that falls on the floor, or for example, to remove a tiny foot from the instruments. A girl who worked here told me that she came home with a tiny foot stuck to her uniform, close to her shoulder. She, of course, hadn't noticed until her husband told her."

Yeni continued getting off her chest what happens inside the clinic: "When the patient is less than three months pregnant, we have to prepare her so that she can come back the next day when she is dilated. The really large terminations are impressive. I have seen three fetuses come out whole. In one instance, you could see the little hand coming out of the uterus. The little hand was moving. But the most impressive thing was the baby that came out breathing. That time, the doctor got sick.
"The girl lived in Tijuana. They put dilators in her for two days. The baby was five and a half months. She didn't have a car and came walking to the clinic. Then it seemed like she was going through labor. When the doctor started to work on her, the baby came out without any help. The child came out breathing and died right there. After a minute, he changed color. He turned purple. The assistants felt very bad. They didn't want to put him in the receptacle. The doctor had to do it. All of us were very affected by it.
"Later, I saw the doctor in his office. His gaze was lost and fixed on the wall. Afterward, he was on the phone with someone telling them what had happened."
Yeni pauses. She wants to continue talking, but it's as if she has a lump in her throat. The interview took a bitter and sad turn.

"Since a few days ago," she said, "a substitute doctor has been coming in. He's younger and has a different technique. He doesn't scrape the uterus, he just uses the vacuum. Last Sunday, he couldn't take it any more because we did some rather large terminations — around four months. He used a technique I hadn't seen. He divided the ultrasound screen in two parts and used an apparatus during the entire procedure. Usually, what you see with the ultrasound is the child sucking his finger, or playing, but on this occasion when the doctor began vacuuming, you could see the baby was moving as if he hurt because it was pulling him or tearing something off. It was horrible, horrible.
.. .
link

women's rights? The women aren't the only ones involved.

[Usually Lurkin]

just to tie a couple threads together:

an American
overseas has about a 1 in 600,000 chance of being killed by a terrorist.
in Baltimore has about a 1 in 4,000 chance of being killed by a gun.
in the womb of his or her mother has about a 1 in 4 chance of being killed by abortion.

and people say Bush is the killer.

[jacktruth]

Well, it doesn't take any additional evidence to say that he's definitely supporting the rights of unborn women. Of course there are many in the country, including vinneponte that would rather people not have a right be breath thier first breath.

[vinnieponte]

we're talking about America here. Not a 3rd world countries clinic

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
just to tie a couple threads together:

an American
overseas has about a 1 in 600,000 chance of being killed by a terrorist.
in Baltimore has about a 1 in 4,000 chance of being killed by a gun.
in the womb of his or her mother has about a 1 in 4 chance of being killed by abortion.

and people say Bush is the killer.

Makes one wonder why there are so many "conservatives" who oppose the wider use, education about and dissemination of contraceptives. If more people who engage in sex (heterosexuals only of course [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]) would use contraceptives we wouldn't have so many abortions would we?

seems pretty simple to me....

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
we're talking about America here. Not a 3rd world countries clinic

do you think that babies in America don't grow limbs? Baby killing is good for American babies? What is your point?

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

Makes one wonder why there are so many "conservatives" who oppose the wider use, education about and dissemination of contraceptives. If more people who engage in sex (heterosexuals only of course [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]) would use contraceptives we wouldn't have so many abortions would we?

seems pretty simple to me....

abstinence has a lower failure rate for both unwanted pregnancy and std's. And if done properly has more benefits than contraceptives done properly.

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin

abstinence has a lower failure rate for both unwanted pregnancy and std's. And if done properly has more benefits than contraceptives done properly.

You know, I've also heard that if people who have influenza just stop breathing they don't infect other people with the virus.

That has about the same prospect of success at stopping the flu as abstinence programs do of stopping unwanted pregnancies.

[vinnieponte]

Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin

do you think that babies in America don't grow limbs? Baby killing is good for American babies? What is your point?

abortion clinics are safe, and ran by "real" doctors here in the states vs a 3rd world country

[u2sarajevo]

vinnie.... you missed the point. What I got from the post was that a child in it's mothers womb has a greater chance of being killed by being aborted than does a soldier at war in Iraq.

[vinnieponte]

Awww, Ok I stand corrected, I misunderstood something somewhere I guess. My point is this: Women should have the right to choose. There shouldnt be a law that tells a women whats right vs wrong when it comes to her body and the decisions that come with it. I think it is a very small chance that Dubya could use his limited smarts to get such a huge judgement overturned, but you never know.

[FishForLunch]

"Democrats hate Christians"

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: FishForLunch
"Democrats hate Christians"

I don't believe this. At all. There are quite a few devoted Christians at my church that had Kerry stickers on the backs of their vehicles.

But I do agree that there are times when it seems to be true. But the sweeping generalization is wrong.

[FishForLunch]

SO is this headline "Bush Against Womens Rights"

[vinnieponte]

A womens right to choose is her right and Bush is against it.

[FishForLunch]

A Christian does not believe in Abortion but the democrats are against it. Thereby we can say democrats dislike christian beliefs

[dude1394]

I don't see that there is an inherent right of someone to kill another human being, no matter the situation. You can rationalize it that it's
a. not a human
b. life of the woman (both health and wealth) supercede the rights of the unborn.
c. Only a human if it's head is out of the womb, as long as the head is not out, it's still not a human.
d. Not a human until it's 1-2 years old.
e. Justified for some reason x.

There are many ways of rationalizing it and obviously legalizing it, but it's just as easy to argue the other side of the fetus's rights to not be torn limb from limb.

[FishForLunch]

Hillary is hedging her bets


Senator Clinton Speaks of 'Common Ground' on Abortion
By PATRICK D. HEALY

LBANY, Jan. 24 - Proposing new political language about abortion rights for the Democratic Party, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton said today that friends and foes on the issue should come together on "common ground" to reduce the number of "unwanted pregnancies" and ultimately abortions, which she called a "sad, even tragic choice to many, many women."

Mrs. Clinton, in a speech to about 1,000 abortion rights supporters at the state Capitol, firmly restated her support for the Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion nationwide, Roe v. Wade. But then she quickly shifted gears, offering warm words to opponents of abortion - particularly members of religious groups - asserting that there was "common ground" to be found after three decades of emotional and political warfare over abortion.

Mrs. Clinton is widely seen as a possible candidate for the party's presidential nomination in 2008, and her remarks signaled that she could be recalibrating her strong identification with the abortion-rights movement as the Democratic Party engages in its own re-examination of its handling of the issue in the wake of Senator John Kerry's loss in the 2004 presidential race.

Ms. Clinton has been a visible and very public defender of abortion rights, appearing at a huge rally in Washington last spring and denouncing what she called Republican efforts to demonize the abortion rights movement.

While she acknowledged in her address today that Americans have "deeply held differences" over abortion rights, Mrs. Clinton told the annual conference of the Family Planning Advocates of New York State, "I for one respect those who believe with all their heart and conscience that there are no circumstances under which abortion should be available."

In addition to her description of abortion as a "tragic choice" for many," Mrs. Clinton said that faith and organized religion were the "primary" reasons that teenagers abstain from sexual relations, and reminded the audience that during the 1990's, she promoted "teen celibacy" as a way to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

"The fact is, the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place," Mrs. Clinton said.

Mrs. Clinton also called today for the Bush administration, religious groups, supporters and opponents of abortion rights and others to look beyond the abortion rights divide and form a broad alliance on other issues that she suggested as less incendiary: sex-education programs for teenagers that included abstinence education, emergency contraception for women who have recently had unprotected intercourse, and family planning.

The speech was also notable for a stream of statistics and data that, Mrs. Clinton's aides said afterward, were included to underscore her view that the reduction of "unwanted pregnancies" could be a unifying issue for supporters and opponents of abortion rights.

At one point, for instance, she drew gasps from some in the audience by mentioning that 7 percent of American women who do not use contraception account for 53 percent of all unintended pregnancies.

Several women in the audience reacted positively to Mrs. Clinton, whose remarks were interrupted by applause several times and ended with a standing ovation. But they also said her language and themes seemed politically calculated to deal with the abortion "freak-out" among Democrats, as one audience member put it, and reach out to independent and conservative voters in hopes of broadening her base of support for a possible 2008 presidential run.

[jacktruth]

abortion clinics are safe, and ran by "real" doctors here in the states vs a 3rd world country

In most states, they are less regulated than veterinary clinics because Democrats oppose increased abortion safety.

[jacktruth]

in hopes of broadening her base of support for a possible 2008 presidential run.

Possible? I think absolutely certain is a better term. She is smart. She is following the Clinton I strategy - appear to be moderate until you get into office.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

You know, I've also heard that if people who have influenza just stop breathing they don't infect other people with the virus.

That has about the same prospect of success at stopping the flu as abstinence programs do of stopping unwanted pregnancies.

Despite what your liberal friends want everyone to think, it won't kill anyone to stop feeding their lustful desires.

The point of the thread, though, is: is it ok to kill someone else rather than deal with the consequences of feeding one's lustful desires?

[Rhylan]

At one point, for instance, she drew gasps from some in the audience by mentioning that 7 percent of American women who do not use contraception account for 53 percent of all unintended pregnancies.

I hadn't intended to weigh in on this topic, but perhaps the choice of using contraception is the choice that everyone should be standing up and screaming about.

[vinnieponte]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I don't see that there is an inherent right of someone to kill another human being, no matter the situation. You can rationalize it that it's
a. not a human
b. life of the woman (both health and wealth) supercede the rights of the unborn.
c. Only a human if it's head is out of the womb, as long as the head is not out, it's still not a human.
d. Not a human until it's 1-2 years old.
e. Justified for some reason x.

There are many ways of rationalizing it and obviously legalizing it, but it's just as easy to argue the other side of the fetus's rights to not be torn limb from limb.

HMMMMM, Very intresting. Seeing how you back the man with the highest execution rate in the United States!! No-one has ever sent more people to death than George W. Bush. But don't worry, Jeb is on his way to. YOU, DUDE SAID......."I don't see that there is an inherent right of someone to kill another human being, no matter the situation" But you love dubya, and back him up 100%, so what about his death rate?

[dude1394]

There may not be a difference to you but there is to me. I fail to see how you can morally equate the execution of a murderer/rapist/child murderer with the execution of an innocent 8-month old baby for the crime of being a nuisance to the mother.

Since you CAN, I can now understand how you equate a terrorist blowing up a family at a pizza parlor and a US soldier killing a terrorist. Warped.

[vinnieponte]

Since you CAN, I can now understand how you equate a terrorist blowing up a family at a pizza parlor and a US soldier killing a terrorist. Warped.[/quote]


???? ummm are you loosing your mind?

[vinnieponte]

[quote]
Originally posted by: dude1394
There may not be a difference to you but there is to me. I fail to see how you can morally equate the execution of a murderer/rapist/child murderer with the execution of an innocent 8-month old baby for the crime of being a nuisance to the mother.

As far as I know, you can't have an abortion in such a late term as 8 months!!

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte

Would that matter to you vinnie? I mean, it's the mothers right correct? It's not a baby yet if it hasn't been born? Isn't that what you have said before?

And just for clarification, Partial Birth Murders do occur in some states in the third trimester.

[vinnieponte]

This goverment is getting out of hand. They want to control women's right on what they can do with their bodies. They want to tell people who can and can't get married. They want to bully the world without reason or justice. They lie then cover it up. Is this what america is really about?

[vinnieponte]

yes u2 a womens right is a womens right. We need to get some women in here to put their thoughts down.

[u2sarajevo]

Well, trying to stay on-topic here I will focus on the part of your question that had to do with the government-sanctioned murders that happen daily. And this is a tired debate, but who is there to speak up for the childs right? Where is that little miracle growing inside it's mothers womb's voice? Unless it's a virgin-birth miracle the only way it got there was by doing something that could either a)be controlled through contraception or b)be prevented by abstinence (with the obvious exception of rape - which is a different subject entirely).

Every day we are confronted with choices we make. Having sex or not, or using a contraceptive or not is a viable question that should be confronted by each consenting couple. Killing the result of not making the correct choice of the previous question should not be.

[vinnieponte]

But the main questions is: a) who are we to tell someone what they can and can't do, it's none of our business. Its about choice, about freedom to make decisions. Isn't america about freedom of choice? I agree that preventive measures is what EVERYONE should take to heart before having sex. And I could stream this off saying "well what if the condom broke?" etc, etc, but I wont. It's about choice, and the goverment and good ol republicans are trying to take that away.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
But the main questions is: a) who are we to tell someone what they can and can't do, it's none of our business.

Well, the government tells you that you can't murder a human outside the womb. Murder is a crime, the governments job is to make laws forbidding crime.

Its about choice, about freedom to make decisions. Isn't america about freedom of choice?

Absolutely it's about choice. If you don't want to take care of a child, chose abstinence or use contraceptives.... keeping in mind that contraceptives are not 100% guaranteed to work.

I agree that preventive measures is what EVERYONE should take to heart before having sex. And I could stream this off saying "well what if the condom broke?" etc, etc, but I wont. It's about choice, and the goverment and good ol republicans are trying to take that away.

What choice are the "government and the good ol republicans" trying to take away?

[vinnieponte]

[quote]
Originally posted by: u2sarajevo

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
What choice is the "government and the good ol republicans" trying to take away?

u2, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. Bush & His republican buddies are setting up shop to overturn the roe vs wade decision. I'm stating that they're trying to take away the freedom of choice when it comes to abortion. There is a 50/50 chance this would happen. My point being that its a womens choice to decide what she does with her body, not theirs.

[u2sarajevo]

I know what the thread is about. I just wanted you to state it. You are afraid that the government is going to take away a mothers "right" to kill her unborn child.

And that is a choice no one should make.

[vinnieponte]

Well as we sit here in america, we currently have the freedom of choice. But then again we shouldn't expect to have such things with dubya running this place. I can go for months on this issue yet only time will tell if it stands or not. One thing is for certain: legally or illegal, abortions will happen and women will make their OWN decisions based on where their at in their life and whom they're as a person.

[u2sarajevo]

I also have the freedom of choice to shoot up with heroin, it's my body afterall. Luckily, the government already has rules to deter that from happening. They are trying to protect me (and those around I might harm while on heroin).

[vinnieponte]

Originally posted by: u2sarajevo
I also have the freedom of choice to shoot up with heroin, it's my body afterall. Luckily, the government already has rules to deter that from happening. They are trying to protect me (and those around I might harm while on heroin).

Good point: the goverment made drugs illegal, but does that stop anyone from using, ummm no. Same thing with abortions, they might become illegal, but that wont stop people from having them done. From the goverments standpoint their accomplishing something. But if someone wants to do something, they will do it.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
Good point: the goverment made drugs illegal, but does that stop anyone from using, ummm no. Same thing with abortions, they might become illegal, but that wont stop people from having them done. From the goverments standpoint their accomplishing something. But if someone wants to do something, they will do it.

So let's repeal all laws then. Why do we have them? If someone doesn't want to follow them they won't. So why have them?

[dude1394]

You know I am honestly not hard over on abortion laws ( I know it's hard to not be truly on one side or another) I sort of fall in the first trimester side. I don't understand how anyone can support past first trimester abortions, but they do, just like NRA members support gatling guns. But at least the gatling gun IS IN THE CONSTITUTION.

Abortions not even close, it's a made up "right". The supreme court threw a big cluster when they decreed that killing babies were a "right" by fiat. If they hadn't, the I imagine the blue states would be raking in the dough with abortion clinics. It's the "right" part that bugs me, as it's all made up. If you can make up the right of a woman to kill her baby, then you can damn well make up a right to euthanize a parent. My parent, my choice.