Farmers Branch wades into the immigration debate

[chumdawg]

I should think that you would recognize that it's VERY much related. What am I missing?

Now, if you wanted to ask KG from earlier how abortion is related, that would have seemed a fair question.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I just don't understand you mavie. The root issue is that mexico is a third world country, not a heck of a lot that we can do about that.

We can NOT build a fence and prosecute employees or we CAN build a fence and prosecute employees.

I don't see the issue with building a fence along our border? What is your problem with that?

the fence will not solve the problem, it will 1) be a waste of the money spent, and 2) be a negative symbol that is juxtaposed with the statue of liberty.

"third world country"? dated venacular to say the least.

imho spend the money that would go to the fence to improve employment opportunities in mexico.

[MavKikiNYC]

Waiting on word

South Korean pastor may be forced to leave the U.S.

By TRACI SHURLEY

STAR-TELEGRAM STAFF WRITER


STAR-TELEGRAM/DARRELL BYERS
Pastor Moon Tak Oh leads a Wednesday night service at his Arlington church. He has waited more than two years for a form necessary to apply for permanent resident status.


The Rev. Moon Tak Oh has spent the past 19 years building a career and a family in the U.S., but by early next year that life -- along with his status as a legal immigrant -- could be gone.

The South Korean native and pastor of the Korean-American First Baptist Church in Arlington has waited 2 1/2 years for a document needed to apply for permanent residence. If U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services officials don't approve the form, called an I-360, by Jan. 23, when his religious worker visa expires, Oh, his wife, and his three U.S.-born children may have to move to South Korea.

He and church members are praying that doesn't happen. Each Sunday, about 120 people attend services at the church, 721 Woodrow Street in central Arlington. Oh has been pastor for five years.

"We just don't understand," said Ann Simmons, a founding member of the 25-year-old church. "He's been very faithful. He's been serving the church and all he wants to do is spread the Gospel. He needs to stay."

The I-360 typically takes from six months to a couple of years to be processed, depending on whether problems arise, officials with Citizenship and Immigration Services say.

'So much stress'
Oh began working at the church on a religious worker visa in 2001. He applied for his I-360 in March 2004.

As time passed, he started to worry.

"I understand one year. But more than two and a half years?" he said. "We've been really suffering, especially my wife. She has had so much stress."

Oh is a graduate of Southwest Baptist University in Bolivar, Mo., and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. His wife, Haejoung, is also from South Korea. Sons James, 11, and John, 10, are in the sixth and fifth grade respectively at Corey Elementary. The couple's youngest, Joseph, is 3.
None of the children have been to South Korea, and the thought of making them move away from the U.S. is painful for their parents.

"They're so sad," Haejoung Oh said.

After being unable to get the information he wanted from immigration officials, Oh called U.S. Rep. Joe Barton's office. He said Barton's office told him that his I-360 application is in the security clearance process, much of which is done by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies. The security clearance process cannot be expedited, a letter from Barton to Oh said.

Oh said the most trouble he has ever had with the law is a few speeding tickets. He said he appreciates that officials must be vigilant, but he doesn't understand why his name - which he says is unusual even in South Korea -- could be causing such a problem.

If Oh's name has been identified for further background checks, there may not be much that even immigration officials can do to avoid the delay.

Delays aren't unusual
Immigration officials said they cannot discuss specific cases. But delays in the name-checking process aren't unusual, and Citizenship and Immigration Services officials can't do anything until the FBI gives them the OK on an individual, said Maria Elena Garcia-Upson, spokeswoman for the agency's central region, which has an office in Dallas.

Citizenship and Immigration Services sends more than 27,000 names to the FBI's National Name Check Program each week, according to the FBI's Web site. Most are returned with a "no record" finding in a few days, but at least 10 percent of the names are flagged as possibly being the subject of an FBI record.

How long it takes to get that record and review it for clearance depends on a variety of factors, including how difficult the record is to locate and how many cases are ahead of an individual, the Web site says.
"We cannot bestow a benefit until such time as we get a clean record back," Upson said. "And I think we owe that to the public."

In the meantime, Oh is trying to figure out what to do if he doesn't get good news from immigration officials soon. He and his wife have a few options for getting a different type of visa to extend their eligibility to stay, but none of them would allow Oh to continue to be employed as a pastor, he said.
His wife, for example, could enroll in school and seek a student visa. But as a spouse of the student visa holder, Oh couldn't work. He could also apply for a student visa and seek permission from the university to work while attending school, but he already has a doctorate.

Oh hopes exposing his problems in a public forum might help.

"This is kind of a final option," he said.

The Rev. Moon Tak Oh, 45

Occupation: pastor at the Korean-American First Baptist Church in central Arlington since 2001.
The issue: Oh fears that he, his wife and his three young sons will have to move to South Korea if his immigration problems aren't resolved by Jan. 23, which is when his religious worker visa expires.
Education: undergraduate degree, Southwest Baptist University in Bolivar, Mo.; and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth.
Family: Wife, Haejoung. Sons, James, 11, John, 10, and Joseph, 3.

[dude1394]

Should have snuck across, then the dems and the ACLU would be on his side.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Should have snuck across, then the dems and the ACLU would be on his side.

Seems like he would find some advocate from the evangelical community. Then again, perhaps not.

Seriously.....what should the status of the children be? The parents aren't citizens, but the children were born here and have lived all their lives here.

Citizens or not?

[dalmations202]

Invest some money into solving some of the "red tape", and then actually enforce the laws that are currently on the books.

Put some "meat" behind the laws that are being broken, so people aren't at no risk if they break them.

Clean the nation up, and stop being soft. Be kind-hearted, but not soft.

If kids are citizens, but parents not, then allow parents to stay on a legalized visa till the kids are 18. Any children born to illegals after XXX date will not be considered US Citizens unless parents have gotten their paperwork declaring them legal citizens. During this time they can be applying for citizenship and getting the proper paperwork done.

The answer is to fix the way someone becomes citizens first -- then enforce.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

This doesn't quite mesh with your observations regarding the minimum wage.

You'll have to help me out.

Why does it not quite mesh with my observations regarding minimum wage?

EDIT: Re: my comments about abortion, it wasn't topically related, but it was certainly logically related. The argument being advanced was that children shouldn't be punished for the choices of their parents.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Seems like he would find some advocate from the evangelical community. Then again, perhaps not.

Seriously.....what should the status of the children be? The parents aren't citizens, but the children were born here and have lived all their lives here.

Citizens or not?

If they are born here I think they are citizens per the constitution. However they may have to leave because there is no one to keep them.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I should think that you would recognize that it's VERY much related. What am I missing?

Now, if you wanted to ask KG from earlier how abortion is related, that would have seemed a fair question.

I still don't get it. How is illegal immigration related to minimum wage? Other than there are more folks pushing wages down to the minimum wage because of illegal aliens. Is that you point?

I don't see how it has effect either way on whether a minimum wage is a positive or negative with respect to the amount of workers lost.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

You'll have to help me out.

Why does it not quite mesh with my observations regarding minimum wage?

EDIT: Re: my comments about abortion, it wasn't topically related, but it was certainly logically related. The argument being advanced was that children shouldn't be punished for the choices of their parents.

Without going back to look at it, I thought that your argument was that market forces should hold sway and that government should not dictate an increase in the minimum wage.

And the market forces that would keep the minimum wage where it is might rely in part on workers who have immigrated illegally.

Those forces run counter to each other.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I still don't get it. How is illegal immigration related to minimum wage? Other than there are more folks pushing wages down to the minimum wage because of illegal aliens. Is that you point?

Indeed. I didn't mean it to be more complicated than that.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Indeed. I didn't mean it to be more complicated than that.

So this would mean all of those who are pushing for a minimum wage hike should be pushing for tighter borders as well. Since it's the democrats I wouldn't expect that, they might have to do something of consequence.

[chumdawg]

No, I'm afraid you have it backwards. No wage hike, and no immigration. Fuck 'em when you can.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without going back to look at it, I thought that your argument was that market forces should hold sway and that government should not dictate an increase in the minimum wage.

And the market forces that would keep the minimum wage where it is might rely in part on workers who have immigrated illegally.

Those forces run counter to each other.

My position on the minimum wage was:

"Personally, I have no problem with periodic "cost of living" adjustments to the minimum wage, if the adjustments are somehow tied to the reality of economic conditions and not just arbritrarily created by politicians. Still, given Sowell's point that "pay increases an average of 30 percent" in the first year of employment, it seems to me that the market does a much better job of raising wages than the government would.

Bottom line, if you have a job, you have a chance for advancement and to improve your circumstances. If you don't have a job, you don't. I'd much rather keep the minimum wage where it is and have more people employed than I would to raise it and see the unemployment rate rise."

I don't understand how that "doesn't mesh" with the idea that employers should be penalized for hiring illegals. I didn't address the impact, if any, of illegals on the minimum/low wage job market at all.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No, I'm afraid you have it backwards. No wage hike, and no immigration. Fuck 'em when you can.

I guess I really don't understand what you mean by "no immigration". Do you mean no immigration reform? No enforcement of immigration laws?

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Seems like he would find some advocate from the evangelical community. Then again, perhaps not.

Seriously.....what should the status of the children be? The parents aren't citizens, but the children were born here and have lived all their lives here.

Citizens or not?

Re: the Reverend, obviously this is an example of bureaucracy not doing its job properly. It seems to me, though, that the story you posted isn't as much an indicator of the need for a change in the laws regarding obtaining citizenship as it is of the need for a change in the bureaucracy that administers those laws.

Re: the kids, you raise a valid point. I doubt that our Constitution is changed any time soon, but I think that it is worthwhile, particularly when we talk about something like how and why a person receives citizenship, to think about the intent and purpose behind the way we do things.

[capitalcity]

Congratulations to Farmer's Branch and goodluck fighting LULAC and the ACLU!

By DAN RONAN / WFAA-TV

More reports on Farmers Branch

FARMERS BRANCH — Voters in Farmers Branch Saturday resoundingly endorsed a controversial ordinance that requires renters to be legal residents in the United States.

With all precincts reporting, 68 percent of voters said they favored the measure, an issue that has focused international attention on the Dallas suburb.

Seven polling places were established for the expected large turnout; the city usually has only one voting location for a municipal election.

At issue was Ordinance 2903, requiring landlords to verify a person is in the United States legally before they can rent or renew a lease or rental agreement.

The only exception would be for mixed-status families.

Several other cities across the nation have adopted or considered this type of legislation, but Farmers Branch is the first to put it before citizens in a vote.

Councilman Tim O'Hare, who spearheaded the ordinance, claims that illegal immigrants are having a negative effect on the city. He knows the city faces a legal challenge ahead.

"We will take this all the way to the Supreme Court if that's what we have to do," O'Hare declared after the vote. "Anyone that sues us, know that we will be aggressive pursuing them for our attorney fees when we prevail."

Supporters said they want to make it clear illegals are not welcome in Farmers Branch.

But opponents—while conceding that illegal immigration is a problem—maintained that this is a national issue and citizens who want to change the law should lobby the U.S. Congress.

"This is not the responsibility of the City of Farmers Branch or of any other municipality; this is the responsibility of the federal government," said ordinance opponent Elizabeth Vialla Franca. "For any municipality to try to take the job of the federal government is not going to fly."

Ordinance 2903 opponents also said enforcing the regulations and defending the city against the inevitable lawsuits will cost millions of dollars.

"I think you will see with the new Council—which will convene for the first time in about 10 days—you're going to see that we're not going to sit down and take these lawsuits lightly," O'Hare said. "We will vigorously defend them, and the right to do what we want to do in our town."

E-mail dronan@wfaa.com

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by capitalcity

Congratulations to Farmer's Branch and goodluck fighting LULAC and the ACLU!

By DAN RONAN / WFAA-TV

More reports on Farmers Branch

FARMERS BRANCH — Voters in Farmers Branch Saturday resoundingly endorsed a controversial ordinance that requires renters to be legal residents in the United States.

Strange isn't it. An ordinance that says ILLEGAL, i.e. people who do not belong in the US are prohibited from renting is "controversial". I would think the opposite would be true, that renting to someone who is in the country illegally would be the problem.

"We will take this all the way to the Supreme Court if that's what we have to do," O'Hare declared after the vote. "Anyone that sues us, know that we will be aggressive pursuing them for our attorney fees when we prevail."

Why exactly would illegal people have standing in our courts? I mean how would they show up in court for example?

But opponents—while conceding that illegal immigration is a problem—maintained that this is a national issue and citizens who want to change the law should lobby the U.S. Congress.

"This is not the responsibility of the City of Farmers Branch or of any other municipality; this is the responsibility of the federal government," said ordinance opponent Elizabeth Vialla Franca. "For any municipality to try to take the job of the federal government is not going to fly."

Nice spin, but spin it is.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Strange isn't it. An ordinance that says ILLEGAL, i.e. people who do not belong in the US are prohibited from renting is "controversial". I would think the opposite would be true, that renting to someone who is in the country illegally would be the problem.

It's more complex than that. What if you had to prove your citizenship every time you went to the grocery store? Or bought gas? Or went to a movie?

That shit would never fly.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's more complex than that. What if you had to prove your citizenship every time you went to the grocery store? Or bought gas? Or went to a movie?

That shit would never fly.

Hmm...I don't think renting an apartment occurs daily or weekly. You can't rent one without filing out a lease right? Sounds like you are splitting hairs with that one.

[chumdawg]

It's a private business transaction. In that respect, it's no different than the other examples.

[dude1394]

Well with respect to renters/leases there are probably many city/state regulations with respect to them. Especially from the leasee perspective. So it does appear quite different from purchasing an apple.

[chumdawg]

As far as I understand, any regulations on who can or cannot lease property fall solely on the discretion of the landowner. Do discrimination laws even apply? Age requirements and income requirements are common. As best I know, no one has a right to lease property from a landowner.

Limitations on sales, however, are common. You can't purchase tobacco unless you can prove you are 18 years old. You can't purchase alcohol unless you can prove you are 21. You can't purchase a gun if you have a felony on your record (or somesuch). Incidentally, many apartment complexes have prohibitions against felons, too.

I'm just saying...if your goal is to keep illegals out of your municipality (and by extension, your country), there is a whole lot more you could do, too.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

As far as I understand, any regulations on who can or cannot lease property fall solely on the discretion of the landowner. Do discrimination laws even apply? Age requirements and income requirements are common. As best I know, no one has a right to lease property from a landowner.

Limitations on sales, however, are common. You can't purchase tobacco unless you can prove you are 18 years old. You can't purchase alcohol unless you can prove you are 21. You can't purchase a gun if you have a felony on your record (or somesuch). Incidentally, many apartment complexes have prohibitions against felons, too.

I'm just saying...if your goal is to keep illegals out of your municipality (and by extension, your country), there is a whole lot more you could do, too.

Well, you got to start somewhere. Starting where they live, looks to me to be the first choice in solving this problem.

[MavsX]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's more complex than that. What if you had to prove your citizenship every time you went to the grocery store? Or bought gas? Or went to a movie?

That shit would never fly.

well as long as they can speak english they should be okay.

the people in question can't even communicate with us.

[Mavdog]

yeah, a very complex issue.

if the question is "Do you support better enforcement of our country's immagration laws?". most if not all of us would say a resounding yes.

if the question is "do you want families who have entered and live in the US without proper docs to not be able to rent a place to live?". the majority would probably say no, let them have a decent place to live.

make no mistake about the motivation behind this ordinance. the authors goal is to reduce the number of hispanic families who choose to live in farmers branch. there was even an organized protest in farmers branch against a carnival grocery store from opening in a former albertsons/supersaver. never mind the carnival would be a huge step up in quality and service, it is after all an hispanic oriented grocer soo people protested.

I can agree that we need to deal with the immigration issue, but this approach by the city of farmers branch has a very unpleasant odor to it.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

make no mistake about the motivation behind this ordinance. the authors goal is to reduce the number of hispanic families who choose to live in farmers branch. there was even an organized protest in farmers branch against a carnival grocery store from opening in a former albertsons/supersaver. never mind the carnival would be a huge step up in quality and service, it is after all an hispanic oriented grocer soo people protested.

Especially the hispanics that are illegal.

[MavsX]

yes.

we need to do something, the longer this shit just sits in courts the more people are going to be living in the US, and i mean this issue nationally..not just in FB. We need to do something, but as they always say both the reps and dems want the Hispanic vote and that is why no one is in a hurry to do anything...


maybe thats why smaller local governments are willing to do something about it?