Official Rangers off season thread - Page 16 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 03-08-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

Do you honestly think Neftali could become a #1 or #2....I don't...maybe a #3

EDIT: on this Rangers team?....maybe a #1 for a different ball club

This year? No, which is why I'm on record as saying that I want him to stay in the bullpen for now.

Eventually? I think it's possible. He has fantastic stuff and was one of the best pitching prospects in baseball a couple years ago (as a starter).

Mav Addict · 03-08-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

1st or 2nd starters are way, way, way more valuable than closers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

He has been called the most talented pitcher on our team a couple of times this spring. Yes, absolutely I do. Absolutely. If given a full opportunity to grow through any pains this year, I absolutely believe he would become that.

Both of you baseball nerds make me sick

EDIT: Eventually yes....right as this moment?...I wouldn't be so sure

Murphy3 · 03-08-2011, 02:40 PM

sport...waiting on confirmation

jthig32 · 03-08-2011, 02:45 PM

I've heard Daniels talk several times about CJ being so successful with his transition because he wanted it so bad. I've noticed him sounding very pessimistic about Feliz's chances and I think this is part of the reason why.

Murphy3 · 03-08-2011, 02:46 PM

Personally, I don't think Feliz has the secondary pitches to be a starter at this point. I think Ogando is better suited as far as his arsenal goes... I don't know if he can be stretched out that far considering his lack of innings..but, we'll see.

Male30Dan · 03-08-2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

This year? No, which is why I'm on record as saying that I want him to stay in the bullpen for now.

Eventually? I think it's possible. He has fantastic stuff and was one of the best pitching prospects in baseball a couple years ago (as a starter).

This is the issue though. If you don't eventually give him that year, will he ever be ready, or will it always be one of those "next year" type situations? Eventually you have to throw him to the wolves and let him learn how to pitch and be successful. You sure don't want him learning with a 1-run lead in the 9th inning.

To me, he needs to start this year if he is going to start or you are just delaying his dominance. I mean, if us struggling is the reasoning behind waiting, do we want to struggle in 2012? 2013? Give him an opportunity and, if he struggles, let him. He needs to fully learn to pitch as a starter and that will likely have some bumps and bruises along the way. That said, if we want him to ever become what he has the talent to become it is necessary.

Murphy3 · 03-08-2011, 03:23 PM

Yep.. you'll continue to say.."If he can only be a #3 this year, then we'll leave him as a closer." He needs that year to work his way into being a #1 or #2 if in fact he does have that ability.

As for him only being a #3, if he's good enough to be a #3 right now, he should be a starter in my opinion.... without a doubt. If he's already good enough to do that, then that's great. It'll only help his progression towards being a #1 or 2 guy in the future. Plus, you need a minimum of three solid starters for the playoffs.

jthig32 · 03-08-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

This is the issue though. If you don't eventually give him that year, will he ever be ready, or will it always be one of those "next year" type situations? Eventually you have to throw him to the wolves and let him learn how to pitch and be successful. You sure don't want him learning with a 1-run lead in the 9th inning.

To me, he needs to start this year if he is going to start or you are just delaying his dominance. I mean, if us struggling is the reasoning behind waiting, do we want to struggle in 2012? 2013? Give him an opportunity and, if he struggles, let him. He needs to fully learn to pitch as a starter and that will likely have some bumps and bruises along the way. That said, if we want him to ever become what he has the talent to become it is necessary.

JD said that they'd only put him in the rotation if they felt he'd be a guy that could win playoff games THIS season. He doesn't have to be lights out right away, but they have to feel like he will be before the season is over.

I think that's reasonable, and I think there is value in him getting another year in the bullpen if he's not ready this season. I don't think a year in the bullpen is a year lost on possibly starting. Experience against ML hitters is going to help, whether in the bullpen or rotation.

Being in the rotation would help MORE, for sure, but you have to balance the success of the team this season.

Murphy3 · 03-08-2011, 04:02 PM

If he's a solid #3 guy, then he's more valuable to the team as a starter in my opinion. I like the bullpen depth. I like the talent fighting for spots in the rotation, but there's alot of unproven talent in the group.

jthig32 · 03-08-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

If he's a solid #3 guy, then he's more valuable to the team as a starter in my opinion. I like the bullpen depth. I like the talent fighting for spots in the rotation, but there's alot of unproven talent in the group.

I agree. And I think the Rangers do as well. JD's cutoff was a guy that would start in any playoff series, and that's #1-#3.

Male30Dan · 03-09-2011, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

JD said that they'd only put him in the rotation if they felt he'd be a guy that could win playoff games THIS season. He doesn't have to be lights out right away, but they have to feel like he will be before the season is over.

I don't think I suggested that this would be impossible - the point is he needs a season to learn. With a full season under his belt, he would definitely be dangerous in the playoffs - for the opposing team.

I think that's reasonable, and I think there is value in him getting another year in the bullpen if he's not ready this season. I don't think a year in the bullpen is a year lost on possibly starting. Experience against ML hitters is going to help, whether in the bullpen or rotation.

I am not saying a year in the bullpen is a year completely lost on possibly starting, but do you want him trying to learn a curveball with 1 on and a 1 run lead in the 9th inning? Let me help you - the answer is no. As a starter he would have a great deal more leeway to experiment and refine his 2nd/3rd/4th pitches. There is absolutely no denying that.

Being in the rotation would help MORE, for sure, but you have to balance the success of the team this season.

Again, if Neftali can't develop his secondary pitches in his closer role how will next year be any different from this year? Saying you have to balance the success of the team this season can be the exact same sentence uttered next year. Eventually you have to put a great POTENTIAL talent out to grow. It's time - wasn't that our slogan last year? Well, for Feliz, it's time.

Comments above...

Murphy3 · 03-09-2011, 09:35 AM

It sounds like he's still going to be stretched out for another week or two and then a decision will be made. So, two-three more 3-4 inning outings and we'll know whether or not the switch will move forward if he'll end up back in the pen.

jthig32 · 03-09-2011, 01:16 PM

After listening to two more interview with Daniels this morning, my own personal opinion is that it would take a dramatic turn of events for Feliz to move into the rotation this year.

Murphy3 · 03-09-2011, 01:23 PM

I think the dramatic turn of events would be Feliz feeling comfortable and looking good his next 2-3 times out.

jthig32 · 03-09-2011, 01:50 PM

I disagree, I think it would take a lot more than that.

Murphy3 · 03-09-2011, 03:51 PM

Seriously? What do you think would have to happen for them to extend the look further?

jthig32 · 03-09-2011, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Seriously? What do you think would have to happen for them to extend the look further?

Oh, to keep looking at it? I suppose they might keep doing that the entire spring. It can't hurt to stretch him out.

I just think something dramatic is going to have to happen in order for them to actually make the move. Daniels just keep talking over and over about "want to" and "the drive". He sounded very pessimistic about the possibility for this season.

Murphy3 · 03-09-2011, 05:30 PM

Perhaps they're trying to light a bit of a fire under his arse with all the talk of "want to" and "drive". Otherwise, I don't think they'd make it so public.

Five-ofan · 03-11-2011, 03:56 AM

I think that Brandon Webb is one of the biggest things hindering Feliz coming back to the rotation. If the Rangers go with whats probably the best rotation they can go with (Lewis, Wilson, Feliz, Holland, Hunter) then theres the very real possibility that holland or feliz will have struggled in one or two starts when Webb comes back and they will have to jerk them around. I dont see anyway that they want to be put in a position where they have to screw with one of the good young arms(and i dont think theyd like the message they were sending if hunter has a couple of good starts and its him that gets moved). Thats why I think its much more likely you end up with a dave bush or matt harrison somewhere in there.

Five-ofan · 03-11-2011, 06:23 AM

Im very sad to see chuck greenberg go. It will be interesting to see what happens here. I can see a couple of plausible scenarios, 1) Bob Simpson always wanted to own the team but wanted the fan/mlb support that he knew Greenberg would bring. He simply used greenberg as a means to get his foot in the door and now got rid of him. 2) This is a debate over Daniels, with one side wanting to keep Daniels and the other side wanting to move Daniels along to turn the front office completely over to Nolan(I would think Greenberg would be on the Daniels side of this but could be wrong) or 3) there really is a fundamental difference in how greenberg and the other owners viewed his role.

Mav Addict · 03-11-2011, 06:44 AM

Me waking up to no Greenberg is a severe punch in my guts....too early for this crap....somebody say it ain't so

Murphy3 · 03-11-2011, 10:19 AM

Honestly, I don't really care too much especially if he's getting in the way of certain deals. I liked the guy fine, but as long as Daniels and Ryan are running the show.. no biggie.

mkat · 03-11-2011, 10:20 AM

I feel like if he blocked a Young trade, that might have been a better move than shipping MY off. He's gonna be necessary to this lineup this year. Don't like seeing him go, especially if the whole story about Nolan going to the other owners and essentially saying "him or me", is true.

Murphy3 · 03-11-2011, 10:43 AM

From what Evan Grant says.. doesn't sound like Chuck Greenberg was on the same page as anyone.. that he was basically a bull in a china closet. Also, seemed as if Chuck was going to come in as a CEO, but that he was getting more involved in baseball operations than he should have been or had agreed to be.

If that's the case, he needed to be reigned in or he needed to be gone.

Male30Dan · 03-14-2011, 09:21 PM

I smiled ear to ear after reading the article on Feliz today. I sure hope this kid puts in a full 100% effort in being a stud starter because, if he does, he will be very, very successful. He has all the tools to be an eventual Cy Young winner. I believe that to my core.

If you put a guy of that caliber next to Lewis and CJ for the next several years (and yes I understand that implies locking CJ up which I don't see as impossible) you have a heck of a rotation. If Webb turns out to be what he once was (likely impossible) and one of the young kids steps up and fills that #5 job as a solid #3/#4 you have a great rotation.

A lot of IFs, and Feliz likely struggles somewhat this year making the transition, but still. A lot to be excited about if you ask me...

Murphy3 · 03-14-2011, 10:01 PM

I've said all along that the Rangers aren't scrapping plans to make Feliz a starter this year. They're just trying to take all of the pressure off of him that they can...

As for their young arms.. I'm absolutely in love with them. They are legitimately going to end up with about 8 guys deserving of a spot in the rotation out of Spring Training.

jthig32 · 03-15-2011, 09:43 AM

Well, there's the change I felt needed to happen. I think him wanting to do it was a huge factor in whether they were going to try it.

I hope he can do it. It would be really exciting to break camp with him in the rotation. Every single start would be can't-miss as far as I'm concerned.

Murphy3 · 03-15-2011, 09:57 AM

I'd love to see a rotation of:
Holland
Lewis
Wilson
Kirkman
Feliz....
with Harrison in the long man role.

The stuff of that rotation plus long man would be outstanding... If not Feliz in the rotation, I'd like to see either Ogando or Harrison. I like Hunter just fine, but I've never been a huge fan of his stuff. I think the Rangers need to do their best to find 4 guys that they feel comfortable with pitching in the playoffs. Hunter is an ideal #4/#5 but not necessarily a guy you want logging innings in the playoffs. He just doesn't have an out pitch in my opinion.

dalmations202 · 03-15-2011, 11:06 AM

Wilson
Lewis
Holland
Feliz
Harrison
with Kirkman and Hunter as the long guys

But what about Webb, and Bush? IF/When they are healthy?

I don't think Rhodes and Oliver have many years left in them -- gonna develop any of these guys into that role? Maybe Harrison -- I like his stuff better than Kirkman -- but I like Kirkman's command better.

Ogando or Lowe in the closer role? The other gets the 7th inning set-up role with O'Day, IMO.

Does this mean Feldman is essentially gone when he gets back?
Does Sheppers have a spot -- unless there is injury?
Tomko, plus the Japanese guy (my apologies I don't remember his name)

A very good problem for the Rangers this year. Lots of really good pitching, just not really a TORP (unless CJ takes over that role). (With this said, any of the top 7 could get the job done as a TORP as well as Webb if things were to go perfectly for them).

That is 15 names though not counting Tomko and the Japanese guy, and I don't think they can carry quite that many on the 25.

Murphy3 · 03-15-2011, 11:16 AM

Scheppers doesn't have a spot for the first couple of months of the season unless all hell breaks loose on the major league level and he pitches like a stud down in the minors. Webb will have a rotation spot when he's ready..whenever that is. Who's? I don't know.

dalmations202 · 03-15-2011, 11:35 AM

I would assume a 12 man pitching staff? or the usual 11?

If 12 and you remove Feldman and Sheppers from the list - that still leaves one more needing to go down --- Bush, Harrison or Kirkman -- IMO.

I am assuming that Wilson, Holland, Feliz, Lewis, Ogondo, Lowe, Oliver, Rhodes, ODay all have spots locked up. Harrison, Hunter, Kirkman, Bush, Webb, Feldman, and the rest fighting for the last 2-3 spots...............

Fielders will have 4 outfielders, 4 infielders, MY as DH, 2 catchers, a backup corner infielder (Napoli or Davis), and a backup middle infielder (Blanco) at a minimum, IMO. That is 13 right there and 14 if they keep both Napoli and Davis on the major league roster. That is only one extra outfielder. WoW.

jthig32 · 03-15-2011, 01:02 PM

I don't think it's safe to assume that Holland has a spot locked up.

Murphy3 · 03-15-2011, 01:05 PM

I think Holland will get the spot if he has a solid spring... It's not locked up yet, but it's getting there.

muzak · 03-15-2011, 01:43 PM

Who's going to close then? I don't like the idea one bit. You absolutely need a lockdown closer. Blown saves are detrimental. Now JD has to find a closer from the scrapheap? Good luck finding one as good as Feliz. I don't understand this move...if it even happens.

edit: and don't tell me Lowe if the end of last year was any indication of this year. Ogando? Maybe.

jthig32 · 03-15-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzak

Who's going to close then? I don't like the idea one bit. You absolutely need a lockdown closer. Blown saves are detrimental. Now JD has to find a closer from the scrapheap? Good luck finding one as good as Feliz. I don't understand this move...if it even happens.

edit: and don't tell me Lowe if the end of last year was any indication of this year. Ogando? Maybe.

Well, first of all, I don't think this is set in stone at all. I still think the safe bet is that he ends up in the bullpen.

But you're seriously overstating how hard it is to find a closer. Good closers are found in bullpens every single season.

muzak · 03-15-2011, 02:23 PM

Yes they are. Last year was a very good example. But, who will we "find" in our bullpen? I can see Ogando succeeding, but I wouldn't trust anyone else we have out there. I seriously doubt we have a cushion in the division like last season, this season, so I think making certain we don't blow small leads extremely vital to make the PO's.

jthig32 · 03-15-2011, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzak

Yes they are. Last year was a very good example. But, who will we "find" in our bullpen? I can see Ogando succeeding, but I wouldn't trust anyone else we have out there. I seriously doubt we have a cushion in the division like last season, this season, so I think making certain we don't blow small leads extremely vital to make the PO's.

That's kind of the whole point, we don't know. Ogando might be up to it, Lowe might as well. Who knows.

Heck, I think this team is built perfectly to do closer by committee with lefty/righty match ups.

I'd put my money on Scheppers being the closer by the end of the season if Feliz is in the rotation.

Murphy3 · 03-15-2011, 04:20 PM

Yep..find your front line starters first and then worry about your closers. 'IF' you feel like Feliz will be a guy that you'd run out there to start in the playoffs, then you definitely want him as a starter.

muzak · 03-15-2011, 04:56 PM

Valid points, gents. You're winning me over. BUT, he finds his cutter that fast and now he wants to start? I'm intrigued, but leery.

Scoobay · 03-17-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I would assume a 12 man pitching staff? or the usual 11?

If 12 and you remove Feldman and Sheppers from the list - that still leaves one more needing to go down --- Bush, Harrison or Kirkman -- IMO.

I am assuming that Wilson, Holland, Feliz, Lewis, Ogondo, Lowe, Oliver, Rhodes, ODay all have spots locked up. Harrison, Hunter, Kirkman, Bush, Webb, Feldman, and the rest fighting for the last 2-3 spots...............

Fielders will have 4 outfielders, 4 infielders, MY as DH, 2 catchers, a backup corner infielder (Napoli or Davis), and a backup middle infielder (Blanco) at a minimum, IMO. That is 13 right there and 14 if they keep both Napoli and Davis on the major league roster. That is only one extra outfielder. WoW.

assuming moreland's your 1B, he can also play outfield.