Are Mavs better, or worse, with new FO?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I think the real question is whether plan power is still a go. I think it is. I think Jason Kidd and Nico were brought here for more superstar chasing. Except maybe it will work this time without having sleepy people at the helm.

Kidd isn't an X's and O's coach. He was brought here to coddle egos...large egos. They're gonna go after the likes of Kawhi, Lillard, Derozan, etc. No matter how irrational...I think that's the plan.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You're confusing people who wanted a new coach with wanting Jason Kidd as their coach...

Every other available coach was going to be a downgrade, like written dozens of times when someone wrote "new coach new coach" without telling WHO should be the new coach. It was always going to be a huge downgrade.

Wanting to get rid of Carlisle but now also crying about Kidd is laughable.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Every other available coach was going to be a downgrade, like written dozens of times when someone wrote "new coach new coach" without telling WHO should be the new coach. It was always going to be a huge downgrade.

Wanting to get rid of Carlisle but now also crying about Kidd is laughable.

[tap2390]

In terms of basketball knowledge and Xs and Os, yes most other coaches are a downgrade from Carlisle. Most of us feel that it was time for Carlisle to go not because of his basketball acumen but because of his personality management.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by tap2390

In terms of basketball knowledge and Xs and Os, yes most other coaches are a downgrade from Carlisle. Most of us feel that it was time for Carlisle to go not because of his basketball acumen but because of his personality management.

But also his Xs and Os didn't get us anywhere

[Jack.Kerr]

#notatoddlercoddler

According to CBS News, Joumana Kidd and Jason Kidd got into a heated argument after the Suns star took a french fry from his son’s plate. Joumana reportedly told her husband not to touch the child’s food. That led to the infamous french fry confrontation.

“Jason then turns towards Mrs. Kidd and spits the french fry at Mrs. Kidd, striking her in the face,” the police report said. “Mrs. Kidd turns away from Jason. Jason then strikes Mrs. Kidd in the face while holding a container of yogurt in his hand”

That violent encounter led to Kidd getting arrested on suspicion of domestic abuse. Though he got released to the custody of his attorney, a local attorney named Andrew Miller filed a misdemeanor assault charge against Kidd the day after the incident. According to ESPN, Jason Kidd pled guilty to spousal abuse. He had to pay a $200 fine and take anger management training.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'd argue that there's a chance both are better and not sure why that's not an option. It's no guarantee, but there's a decent chance both are upgrades.

Rick was one of the best Xs and Os coaches in the league and yet couldn't get our guys to play together. Doncic will be just as good, but there's at least a chance that Kidd can get the rest of the guys playing better.

Donnie was solid but had a huge weakness in free agency. There's even an argument that he struck out in the draft (other than Luka). If a GM can't sign good players or draft good players, is he even a good GM?

Recent trades were terrible. KP and Richardson moves were sensible but fell so flat on him. I'd give him credit for Dirk and Doncic here versus any credit to his drafting skills.

I'd say Donnie was horrible drafting, especially recently aside from Brunson. I guess you could say the draft doesn't play out, but last year was really frustrating given you have a win now star and pick a project. As much as I like Green, I think we see very solid contributions from Bey and Bane.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Its going to be a fun season when the "Fire Rick" squad sees the beauty of Jason Kidds coaching

Haha you must hedge a lot in trading, cause that statement could protect you both ways

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

But also his Xs and Os didn't get us anywhere

He overachieved every year and didnt lose a single playoff series as favorite. And all that with additional terrible luck in the past couple of years (Parsons twice season ending surgery, with KP they may win against the Clippers last year, Kawhi going down little bit earlier and they win for sure. They also win for sure if the #2 and #3 dont lay an egg etc).

Whats really funny is that the same people also bashed the FO for years for plan powder. But now the huuuuuge coaching downgrade is actually a win because they think Kidd has an advantage in plan powder over Rick.

Feel free to watch some Bucks games under Kidd. I remember this sorry ass trainwreck pretty well...

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Feel free to watch some Bucks games under Kidd. I remember this sorry ass trainwreck pretty well...

I mean, I did watch a lot of the "sorry ass trainwreck" that was the Mavs outside of Luka-- and that was with Rick.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I mean, I did watch a lot of the "sorry ass trainwreck" that was the Mavs outside of Luka-- and that was with Rick.

No, go back and watch some Bucks games.

Its a difference if its a trainwreck without your MVP level player because of the lack of talent or if its a trainwreck WITH your MVP level player and plenty of talent

The Bucks were a 0.500 team in a shitty EC...

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by sefant77

He overachieved every year and didnt lose a single playoff series as favorite. And all that with additional terrible luck in the past couple of years (Parsons twice season ending surgery, with KP they may win against the Clippers last year, Kawhi going down little bit earlier and they win for sure. They also win for sure if the #2 and #3 dont lay an egg etc).

Whats really funny is that the same people also bashed the FO for years for plan powder. But now the huuuuuge coaching downgrade is actually a win because they think Kidd has an advantage in plan powder over Rick.

Feel free to watch some Bucks games under Kidd. I remember this sorry ass trainwreck pretty well...

Mavs had a higher seed than the Spurs the year before they won the Championship 2011.

They got bounced in the 1st round.

Most fans and media only mention the 6 straight 1st round exits after the title season and sweep the 2010 1st round exit under the rug.

In reality RC has been a coach that has lived off the 1 title he got with Dirk being the best player on the planet doing that post season.

Outside of that the guy who many keep calling this great x's and o's coach has a long history of one and done in the post season as the Mavs head coach.

That very comparable to Jason Garrett of the Cowboys coach he also had a long history of 1st round exits and he got called out for it....

At the end day sure you can say RC is a better coach than Kidd but I doubt Kidd will survive here in Dallas after back to back 1st round exits let alone 6 straight.

I don't any coach for that matter would survive such a long history of 1st round exits in one place.

Genius or not it was time to give someone else a shot as head coach because what you were doing in those 6 straight years of playoff failures wasn't working.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Remember, too, that Rick quit. So I'm not really sure the point in going on about it like Cuban got rid of him.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

He overachieved every year and didnt lose a single playoff series as favorite. And all that with additional terrible luck in the past couple of years (Parsons twice season ending surgery, with KP they may win against the Clippers last year, Kawhi going down little bit earlier and they win for sure. They also win for sure if the #2 and #3 dont lay an egg etc).

Whats really funny is that the same people also bashed the FO for years for plan powder. But now the huuuuuge coaching downgrade is actually a win because they think Kidd has an advantage in plan powder over Rick.

Feel free to watch some Bucks games under Kidd. I remember this sorry ass trainwreck pretty well...

Originally Posted by sefant77

No, go back and watch some Bucks games.

Its a difference if its a trainwreck without your MVP level player because of the lack of talent or if its a trainwreck WITH your MVP level player and plenty of talent

The Bucks were a 0.500 team in a shitty EC...

I agree with most of this. The plan powder part is a tad over the top imo though. You can think Jkidd helps with bringing players here(God knows why but that's what the rumors are saying) without executing plan powder the way the Mavs have... ie- ignore every good free agent because in 1-2yrs a better one is possible(possible as in all 30 teams want him and he can sign anywhere).

But I agree with the rest. There was not one series I can recall where I went in thinking we should absolutely win this series and didn't. There were however plenty of times I thought RC made chicken salad out of chicken shit.

And it's fine to be optimistic about Kidd, hell what else can we do when it's official? But the Bucks were in the East and were a .500 team during his tenure and there were dramatic effects once Bud was there imo. Visual... this looks like good basketball effects. Conversely in the West... Mavs have a 37+yr old Dirk a bum knee parsons a torn achilles wes acting as a number 2 most nights and we were .500 in the West. No matter how you spin that in favor of Kidd, or think that narrative is spun against him, it does not inspire confidence that he is somehow an upgrade right now for me.

[Some Guy]

Originally Posted by saclare

Recent trades were terrible. KP and Richardson moves were sensible but fell so flat on him. I'd give him credit for Dirk and Doncic here versus any credit to his drafting skills.

I'd say Donnie was horrible drafting, especially recently aside from Brunson. I guess you could say the draft doesn't play out, but last year was really frustrating given you have a win now star and pick a project. As much as I like Green, I think we see very solid contributions from Bey and Bane.

I'm not defending Donnie's drafting, but he shouldn't be blamed for last year's draft if the reports of the Bob guy making the picks without consulting the scouts are accurate.

[turin]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Its going to be a fun season when the "Fire Rick" squad sees the beauty of Jason Kidds coaching

Give me a break. RC had way more coaching eff ups and metldowns the last 2 years than an even average coach should have, much less some purported HoFer. The guy is a better than average coach who is too much of an arsehole who treats people like crap to be a coaching positive for more than 2 years imo.

I'm glad he's gone. He should've been let go 5+ years ago.

Luka running the offense gives Kidd a whole lot of grace. His job will be a whole lot easier. Nobody ever mentions how much the greatness of both Dirk and Luka inflated Carlisle's reputation. People will rave about how RC got so much out of a less talented roster... yeah, a roster that has Luka going for 30+ point triple doubles running the offense from the point. Luka can will a team to victory and drag inconsistent bench players across the finish line. That's a LUKA talent not great coaching.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by turin

Give me a break. RC had way more coaching eff ups and metldowns the last 2 years than an even average coach should have, much less some purported HoFer. The guy is a better than average coach who is too much of an arsehole and treats people like crap to be a coaching positive for more than 2 years imo.

I'm glad he's gone. He should've been let go 5+ years ago.

Luka running the offense gives Kidd a whole lot of grace. His job will be a whole lot easier. Nobody ever mentions how much of the greatness of both Dirk and Luka inflated Carlisle's reputation. People will rave about how RC got so much out of a less talented roster... yeah, a roster that has Luka going for 30+ point triple doubles running the offense from the point. Luka can will a team to victory and drag inconsistent bench players over the finish line. That's a LUKA talent not great coaching.

Seem like Rick was threatened by Mosley and Doncic relationship

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...?ocid=msedgntp

“Screw it, I’m going to stop being delicate,” MacMahon said on The Hoop Collective podcast. “I think it got to a point where Rick perceived Jamahl Mosley’s close relationship with Luka Doncic as a threat to him. … Mosley … developed great relationships with players throughout his career.”

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Seem like Rick was threatened by Mosley and Doncic relationship

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...?ocid=msedgntp

“Screw it, I’m going to stop being delicate,” MacMahon said on The Hoop Collective podcast. “I think it got to a point where Rick perceived Jamahl Mosley’s close relationship with Luka Doncic as a threat to him. … Mosley … developed great relationships with players throughout his career.”

I really don't buy this narrative at all. In fact, I'm betting Rick is the one who helped get Mosley those interviews with Orlando and Washington.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by sefant77

He overachieved every year and didnt lose a single playoff series as favorite. And all that with additional terrible luck in the past couple of years (Parsons twice season ending surgery, with KP they may win against the Clippers last year, Kawhi going down little bit earlier and they win for sure. They also win for sure if the #2 and #3 dont lay an egg etc).

Whats really funny is that the same people also bashed the FO for years for plan powder. But now the huuuuuge coaching downgrade is actually a win because they think Kidd has an advantage in plan powder over Rick.

Feel free to watch some Bucks games under Kidd. I remember this sorry ass trainwreck pretty well...

Translation - he didn't win after 2011. Somebody forgot to give Nate McMillan the memo that you can't win when not favored.

[BigDog63]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You're confusing people who wanted a new coach with wanting Jason Kidd as their coach...

Fair, but as I pointed out in such threads...be careful what you ask for. Ie, if you want to fire somebody, need to have a replacement in mind that will actually be better. So, you can't be on the 'I want a new coach' bandwagon, and then complain when you get one...that's part of the deal. Well, yes, you can complain ;-) ...but it IS still part of the deal.

I think RC was a really good coach. But I also think his time here had likely come to an end. Kidd, while likely not a better coach, just may be a better coach for the Mavs at this time. I'm hoping so. Also hoping he learned from his other gigs (he seems to have done so), and we get the new improved Kidd-HC 2.0!

I do think he will have a better relationship with Luca (big plus) and seems like maybe better with players overall (for acquisitions). Given that there seems to be universal agreement Mavs need roster improvements, those are both good things.

Maybe he'll be better at playing younger players, too. This article on Josh Green was interesting. Maybe some of the roster improvements are already ON the current roster.

Let's say KP improves (certainly a possibility), Green plays, and plays well...those two things alone would be an improved team.

Where I think people will miss RC is in game planning and in game adjustments...which will show up in close games.

But as I hear more about Kidd, and what he's done to make himself better, and his relationships around the league...I'm less concerned about him than I was initially.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Translation - he didn't win after 2011. Somebody forgot to give Nate McMillan the memo that you can't win when not favored.

Translation - the team didnt win after 2011. Because of the significant lack of talent and not because of the head coach

[saclare]

Originally Posted by BigDog63

Fair, but as I pointed out in such threads...be careful what you ask for. Ie, if you want to fire somebody, need to have a replacement in mind that will actually be better. So, you can't be on the 'I want a new coach' bandwagon, and then complain when you get one...that's part of the deal. Well, yes, you can complain ;-) ...but it IS still part of the deal.

I think RC was a really good coach. But I also think his time here had likely come to an end. Kidd, while likely not a better coach, just may be a better coach for the Mavs at this time. I'm hoping so. Also hoping he learned from his other gigs (he seems to have done so), and we get the new improved Kidd-HC 2.0!

I do think he will have a better relationship with Luca (big plus) and seems like maybe better with players overall (for acquisitions). Given that there seems to be universal agreement Mavs need roster improvements, those are both good things.

Maybe he'll be better at playing younger players, too. This article on Josh Green was interesting. Maybe some of the roster improvements are already ON the current roster.

Let's say KP improves (certainly a possibility), Green plays, and plays well...those two things alone would be an improved team.

Where I think people will miss RC is in game planning and in game adjustments...which will show up in close games.

But as I hear more about Kidd, and what he's done to make himself better, and his relationships around the league...I'm less concerned about him than I was initially.

I was about to ask for a link to the Josh Green article and barely saw it hyperlinked lol I need another coffee...

[saclare]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Translation - the team didnt win after 2011. Because of the significant lack of talent and not because of the head coach

Which could be attributed to a stale GM and HC tandem that simply failed at attracting talent. These all can be true things.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by BigDog63

Maybe he'll be better at playing younger players, too. This article on Josh Green was interesting. Maybe some of the roster improvements are already ON the current roster.

Interesting points and perhaps we, including myself, are getting caught up in recency bias and the fact Green didn't really get a fair look this season. Him being 2 years younger than the other two is encouraging.

However, towards the end, they mention the possible non-need for a secondary playmaker. While that certainly can be Green, I fear that will follow the old way of thinking by not rostering talent when you can. For example, if Derozan wants to come and play here, Josh Green's development shouldn't preclude that. They mention Derozan but I think he would be great with Luka AND a playmaking guard/wing/whatever we want to call Green.

[MFFL]

The writer forgot to mention that Josh Green also shot 16% from 3 in the playing time he did get

You can't have a 3 & D wing out there who can't shoot the 3

[saclare]

Originally Posted by MFFL

The writer forgot to mention that Josh Green also shot 16% from 3 in the playing time he did get

You can't have a 3 & D wing out there who can't shoot the 3

Mitigated that fact by mentioning playing time and the short leash Rick has on rookies in general. Can't shoot the 3 if you're not on the floor. Obviously needs to hit his shots when he gets them, but shooters need some sort of rhythm and confidence that only comes with playing experience. 25 attempts is a super small sample size...

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by saclare

Mitigated that fact by mentioning playing time and the short leash Rick has on rookies in general. Can't shoot the 3 if you're not on the floor. Obviously needs to hit his shots when he gets them, but shooters need some sort of rhythm and confidence that only comes with playing experience. 25 attempts is a super small sample size...

Both can be true. Green needs to be better and Green was jerked around.

I am absolutely not apologizing for Green's lack of offensive production. He was pretty terrible other than his passing.

I do think it all comes down to Rick's attitude. Rick has the attitude that young guys have to be hungry and are losers until proven otherwise. I just wonder how that would have worked with Dirk, who in his rookie season was inconsistent and only put up 8-3-1 on barely 40% shooting and 20% from three. Imagine if he also got inconsistent minutes and play. I can't help but wonder if Rick would have had him questioning himself and never would have risen to be the star he was if he didn't have a coach who believed in him.

I'm not saying Green is Dirk-- just that sometimes the coach has to have faith in guys who are slow to deliver. The cut-throat mentality of Rick's keeps guys hungry, but it really takes its toll on young guys and the NBA is all about confidence.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by saclare

Mitigated that fact by mentioning playing time and the short leash Rick has on rookies in general. Can't shoot the 3 if you're not on the floor. Obviously needs to hit his shots when he gets them, but shooters need some sort of rhythm and confidence that only comes with playing experience. 25 attempts is a super small sample size...

I'd like to see him get more minutes as well, but I still haven't seen anything that convinces me he isn't Justin Anderson 2.0. FO has been absolutely dreadful at mid to late first round picks. Hope I'm wrong...

[rimrocker]

I'm curious how this would have all unfolded if the Mavs would have won the first round and even beyond.
Clearly Donnie and Rick were not happy here with the whole Bob V. thing so I'm not so sure winning the first round would have made a difference.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Both can be true. Green needs to be better and Green was jerked around.

I am absolutely not apologizing for Green's lack of offensive production. He was pretty terrible other than his passing.

I do think it all comes down to Rick's attitude. Rick has the attitude that young guys have to be hungry and are losers until proven otherwise. I just wonder how that would have worked with Dirk, who in his rookie season was inconsistent and only put up 8-3-1 on barely 40% shooting and 20% from three. Imagine if he also got inconsistent minutes and play. I can't help but wonder if Rick would have had him questioning himself and never would have risen to be the star he was if he didn't have a coach who believed in him.

I'm not saying Green is Dirk-- just that sometimes the coach has to have faith in guys who are slow to deliver. The cut-throat mentality of Rick's keeps guys hungry, but it really takes its toll on young guys and the NBA is all about confidence.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to EricaLubarsky again.

This has been Ricks biggest problem and the only reason I have looked forward to the idea of a new coach. While the argument can be made none of the guys rick didn't give mins to have left the team to become great it can also be said that it's more than possible some could have been better players if given a longer leash. Dirk has said he wanted to go home after his rookie year and if you change Nellie to RC ... That would only have made him want to leave more imo.

[BigDog63]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

I'm curious how this would have all unfolded if the Mavs would have won the first round and even beyond.
Clearly Donnie and Rick were not happy here with the whole Bob V. thing so I'm not so sure winning the first round would have made a difference.

I think it would have. Losing meant no progress...which put Rick on the short leash...which is a large part of what drove him to leave.

However, I also think he felt he may not be the right coach for Luca at this point, and given the other issues, time for him to go.

so, not sure how those two would have worked out. Had Rick felt like he got have gotten them to championship (which might have even happened this year...look how well Clips are doing w/o Kawhi, when Mavs took them to seven WITH Kawhi)....I think he would have stayed.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

But also his Xs and Os didn't get us anywhere

Maybe they did... It's possible that the team could have been in the lottery without Carlisle..

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Maybe they did... It's possible that the team could have been in the lottery without Carlisle..

Or maybe the 3rd seed with a coach the players liked? Or maybe they sweep the Clippers with a few different coaching decisions? Counterfactuals can work both ways, right?

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Zeus

Or maybe the 3rd seed with a coach the players liked? Or maybe they sweep the Clippers with a few different coaching decisions? Counterfactuals can work both ways, right?

Oh sure... absolutely. We will never know. We cannot recreate the 2020-2021 season.