The Solution: Part Two - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

XERXES · 12-08-2003, 12:25 PM

Do we really want to rely on the core components of a team on a 19 game losing streak to improve our team?

kingrex · 12-08-2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: XERXES
Do we really want to rely on the core components of a team on a 19 game losing streak to improve our team?

If part of that core has the upside of McGrady, then I say yes.

LRB · 12-08-2003, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kingrex

Masterful agrument, LRB. It happens rarely, but I have come around on this argument. Oddly enough the hinge was Josh Howard. I like this player a lot. I think his skills on both sides of the court is what impressess me most. I also like Daniels, but to a lesser degree.

I'd also hate to lose Fin because of my own sense of loyalty to certain players, but like I said McGrady is an upgrade to Fin.

I guess, what I'm saying is logically, I can see this trade being better for the Mavs, but emotionally, I still want to see these 5 guys make this work. Oh well, I guess in this day and age you can't get too attached to any player.

Kingrex, I have a lot of the same feelings. I'd really hate to see Fin go and I'd love to see these 5 guys make it work. I had to think on this one quite a while before I formed an opinion.

And JHo was what swung it for me as well. He's still raw, but every time I see him I get sooooooo excited about the potential he shows. And I haven't see such a defender on the Mavs, ever. The kids got all the potential to be a superstar, doesn't mean that he will, but I'm betting he'll be a star and most likely at least an allstar.

One things for sure, we still have almost 2 weeks before this can even possibly go down.

Also, if we do make the trade, look for Orlando to start tearing it up in the Leastern conference.

Dirkenstien · 12-08-2003, 02:19 PM

here are a few reasons this trade is great for us.

1) allows Dirk to play in his natural position
2) gives us the athleticism we need in McGrady to push to the hole and create open shots for Dirk outside
3) makes our team younger
4) gets rid of the log jam at the 4
5) allows room for JHo to flourish into the player we all believe he can be
6) The lakers are going to be hard to beat this year regardless; this trade gives us advantage over them and the majority of the league in the future considering that we would have two of the top 10 players in the league.

also..how long before Hill's contract is up? ..im sure once its over that may create more space to sign the center we need to acquire via FA.

and wasnt orlando pretty high on Walker last year...or was that just Doc Rivers?

Dooby · 12-08-2003, 02:43 PM

"Best five on the floor" rule. This roster isn't much different than the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Juwan and Dirk at the forwards; Bradley at Center; McGrady at SG; and Nash at PG. Sorry, I am underwhelmed. McGrady is better than Finley and Current Dirk better than Younger Dirk. But, I don't see why you do it for the here and now. Longterm core of McGrady and Dirk, but you still need to add a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

LRB · 12-08-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
"Best five on the floor" rule. This roster isn't much different than the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Juwan and Dirk at the forwards; Bradley at Center; McGrady at SG; and Nash at PG. Sorry, I am underwhelmed. McGrady is better than Finley and Current Dirk better than Younger Dirk. But, I don't see why you do it for the here and now. Longterm core of McGrady and Dirk, but you still need to add a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

Dooby, I'd go with Nash, TMac, Josh Howard (Not Juwan), Dirk, and Shawn. I do think that it is a lot different than the 2001-2002 season.

uberfan · 12-08-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The other day I suggested some changes that could be made to "fix" the Mavericks. This is the second installment of "The Solution", and it involves a mammoth trade that I think would turn the Mavericks into legitimate title contenders -- now, and in the years to come.

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

Dallas receives: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.9 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)

Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

+++

We'd have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan - Najera
Josh Howard
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

And if you want to take it even one step further, you deal Najera for Mihm and Sundov.

Mihm - Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan
Josh
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

Thoughts are welcome...

Interesting, but you knew I was going to tweak it a little, didn't you?

Cleveland trades: SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 37.2 minutes)
PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18.2 minutes)
Cleveland receives: C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -6.8 ppg, -1.5 rpg, and -3.0 apg.

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)
Dallas receives: SF Ricky Davis (16.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.9 apg in 18 games)
PF Chris Mihm (7.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18 games)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 2 games)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 16 games)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 17 games)
Change in team outlook: +2.9 ppg, -3.2 rpg, and +2.7 apg.

Orlando trades: PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +3.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.3 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Numbers show Oralndo comes out looking pretty good. Cleveland moves Davis without losing any size. In fact, they gain a good vet in Howard. Mavs have their team set for the next two seasons. People like TAW, Fortson and Ricky Davis get exposed to the expansion draft.

We'd still have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Mihm - Bradley - Fortson
Nowitzki - Najera - Fortson
Josh Howard - Ricky Davis - TAW (when healthy)
McGrady - Davis - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

Hill ( best 6th man on IL award winner). Steffanson - IL. Garrity - IL

Sorry, I need to tweak a little more. I want to move Delk and Garrity on somewhere. We have too many players otherwise.

As long as we are looking for the best alternatives for us, here's my second tweak, though I am not sure Knicks would do it. We buy out Ward.

Dallas trades: PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 20.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -8.6 ppg, -2.9 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

New York trades: PG Charlie Ward (9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 27.1 minutes)
New York receives: PG Tony Delk (8.6 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.8 apg in 14 games)
PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 2 games)
Change in team outlook: 0.0 ppg, -0.6 rpg, and -4.4 apg.

Orlando trades: PF Pat Garrity (1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11.0 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -1.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

kg_veteran · 12-08-2003, 04:12 PM

Can't possibly respond to everybody, so I'll just respond to the most recent...

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
"Best five on the floor" rule. This roster isn't much different than the beginning of the 2001-02 season.

Juwan and Dirk at the forwards; Bradley at Center; McGrady at SG; and Nash at PG. Sorry, I am underwhelmed. McGrady is better than Finley and Current Dirk better than Younger Dirk. But, I don't see why you do it for the here and now. Longterm core of McGrady and Dirk, but you still need to add a lot of pieces to the puzzle.

Dirkenstein hit on a lot of them, but I disagree with your assessment that this team isn't that much different than the 2001-2002 team.

I like the trade because:

1) It gives you 3 of the top 15 players in the league.
2) It gives you two young superstars.
3) It eliminates some of the shot distribution problems the Mavs are having and will inevitably continue to have.
4) It makes the team (at least arguably) better defensively.
5) It establishes who the scorers are (McGrady, Dirk, Nash) and who the roleplayers are (Josh Howard, Juwan Howard, Bradley, Najera, Best, Delk).
6) It sets you up for the next 7-10 years.

This trade doesn't beat the Lakers this year (for the record, I'm not sure that trade exists). But it puts you in a better position, IMO, to beat them next year. And the next. And the next.

kg_veteran · 12-08-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Here's your new roster:

Mihm - Bradley - Fortson
Nowitzki - Najera - Fortson
Josh Howard - Ricky Davis - TAW (when healthy)
McGrady - Davis - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

Hill ( best 6th man on IL award winner). Steffanson - IL. Garrity - IL

Sorry, I need to tweak a little more. I want to move Delk and Garrity on somewhere. We have too many players otherwise.

I don't like Ricky Davis, but I'd be fine with this trade. I covet Mihm, so getting him without giving any more is obviously enticing to me.

I really like the thought of adding Ostertag in the offseason as well...

Ostertag - Mihm - Bradley
Nowitzki - Najera
Howard - Davis
McGrady - Davis
Nash - Best

That's a good, solid, deep bench with an improved defensive starting lineup.

kg_veteran · 12-08-2003, 04:30 PM

uber - I forgot to ask. Why would Cleveland do your proposed trade?

uberfan · 12-08-2003, 04:41 PM

'Cuz I wanted them to so we would get better.

If they want to move Ricky Davis as rumored, they gain an experienced veteran leader in Howard to help with the younger players. DeClerq gives them so more size to take Mihm's place.

Have you seen the latest rumors of a trade between Cavs and Memphis? Can't trust them because they come out of Chicago papers, but interesting. Rumor is:

Battier, Swift, Jake, Outlaw, Dickerson to Cavs.

Z, Davis, Miles to Grizzlies.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 12-08-2003, 04:46 PM

I said before that this trade is growing on me, but if the objective is to beat the fakers next year or the year after, someone had to point out that we are going to be in a pretty good position after this year anyway. Malone is not the average 40 year old, but he's still 40 and it WILL catch up to him eventually, same with Payton. You have to figure they won't stick around long if they get the rings anyway, and once they leave, we'll see the same fat, whiny, disinterested shaq we know and love...plus that other thing the lakers will have to deal with later in the year
Meanwhile, we have two fantastic young forwards, one of whom just might be the most gifted offensive player in the league, a point guard who is hitting the prime of his career and two young guards oozing potential.

Stressboy · 12-08-2003, 04:52 PM

LRB,

I just think that any rookie, especially one that is an energy player is only good for 20-25 minutes a night. The Refs will give no love to the guy for 1-2 seasons and we could not depend on him for 30-35 like you need for a starter. Down the road this trade pays off, but not this year. Also, the biggest issue you would have trying to trade with Orlando, is they would want Josh Howard instead of AJ. Fin/Walker/Josh Howard would give them much more cap flexibility. I'm sure they think as we all do that, Josh is probably going to be as good as Jamison down the road. He could be better with his defense.

Nash/McGrady/Jamison/Dirk/Bradley(now you really have something for this year) Najera/Fortson/Danials/Best/DeClercq off the bench.

Lou/Fin/Josh Howard/Walker/J Howard only 2 max contracts and 1 is only for this year and the next. They will probably get a lottery pick out this year unless this team were to just destroy the east. It would be best for them to wait until the deadline to ensure as bad a record as possible.

Uberfan,

If you are going to get Cleveland involved, with all the Max contracts being thrown around, then I think you have to put Z into the mix. Would Cleveland want Walker, Jamison or Finley with Juwan Howard for Davis and Z. They really need some good veteran leadership and I think Fin with Juwan would help now and down the road.

Orlando gets: R. Davis, Walker, Josh Howard, Jamison
Cleveland gets: Finley, Juwan Howard
Dallas gets: McGrady, Grant Hill, Big Z

Lineups:

Orlando
PGTyronn Lue/Rod Strickland
SG Ricky Davis/Keith Bogans
SF Antawan Jamison/Josh Howard/Donnell Harvey
PF Antione Walker/Drew Gooden
C Andrew DeClercq/Zaza Pachulia

Cleveland
PG LeBron James/Kevin Ollie
SG Finley/Darius Miles/Wagner
SF Juwan Howard/Ira Newble/Jason Kapono
PF Carlos Boozer
C Chris Mihm/Diop

Dallas
PG Steve Nash/Travis Best
SG Tracy McGrady/Tony Delk/Danials
SF Eduardo Najera/Grant Hill(yea right)
PF Dirk Nowitzki/Danny Fortson
C Zydrunas Ilgauskas/Shawn Bradley

We would be back to sqare 1 on the SF spot unless McGrady started there and we played Delk or Danials at the 2, but we would have improved the 2 and 5 while giving up some depth and youth. I think if you start putting a third franchise in the trade, the odds of pulling this kind of trade off goes way up. Hey if Grant Hill actually played a full season, you would be the best team in the NBA for a short while. I still think the best thing to do is play the big 5 together as much as possible to see if it will work with Josh Howard coming off the bench. The Lakers only true weakness right now is at the 3 and any lineup where we don't dominate that matchup is really one we can't use to beat them. I guess having T-Mac cancel out Kobe would make it a pretty equal matchup. You move Danials, Najera and anyone else on bench to try and keep Josh Howard. Then you put him at the 3 in the lineup above and you are rocking.

Stressboy

thebac · 12-08-2003, 04:52 PM

KG trade:

I think that talentwise, it's not too unfair a trade, certainly not outrageous like some trades that have been suggested before. The Mavs would have to be crazy to pass it up. If you have a shot at one of T-Mac, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG (well, maybe T-Mac wouldn't be the first of the group you'd take), you'd have to do it, especially if, at the end of the day, you still KEEP YOUR TWO BEST PLAYERS. Anyone suggesting the Mavs wouldn't do this would have to be a crazy homer (or just a big AJ, AW, Fin fan--like the Dirk fans who wouldn't trade Dirk for Duncan straight up).

As has been pointed out, you don't normally trade a superstar player for several good players, and I think that could be a hindrance for Orlando. However, AW and Fin have been all-stars, and both AJ and AW are still young, and are just entering their primes. They are not merely "good" players.

However, and this is where the trade breaks down, the salaries are horrible. All Mavs players in the trade make max salaries. None of them is worth a max salary. ORL is not in a situation where they've got their stars locked up and don't have to worry about the luxury tax b/c their owner will spend as much as it takes. If they take on AJ, AW, and Fin, and plan on keeping the three, they will be at the salary cap without having a Dirk caliber player. Otoh, T-Mac is more than worth his salary, DeClerq and JHo make about what they're worth, while Hill is obviously not worth it.

In addition, I would think that those three would contend for a chance to represent the East in the finals, but they'd never win, and with those salaries, they could never add more great players (except via the draft). As long as they keep T-Mac, they can still blow up the team and rebuild around him, he's still young.

Finally, considering that each of the Mavs players individually wouldn't be worth much (look what the Mavs got them for, save Fin), why would they be worth so much more when bundled together (except for taking on Hill's salary)?

uber's trade:

Cleveland won't do it. They downgrade tremendously in talent without fulfilling any needs, and I don't think they're dumping any salaries, either. They're basically getting rid of two players who are positives with respect to salary (i.e., make less than they should considering their performance/potential), and getting two players who are relatively neutral with respect to salary and who are worse. It's as if they're partaking in the trade just to improve the Mavs.

(ORL obviously won't, either. See above.)

Stew3636 · 12-08-2003, 05:00 PM

I personally like just shipping antoine and fin for hill and tracy, and if orlando has reason to believe tracy will jet in the offseason they would do it. This is also coming from a big antawn jamison fan however.

uberfan · 12-08-2003, 05:29 PM

Hill facing 5th surgery and possibility of retirement. Orlando is better off holding on to him than making the trade as proposed. If he retires they would get cap relief much sooner (unless Walker opts out which is not likely).

I just don't see Z as a help to this team, unless you are willing to change to a half-court style offense. Ilike Mihm better than Z at this time for a number of reasons aleady discussed elsewhere.

The reality is that the best option for the Mavs is to stay with what we have. If all here are willing to conced that this trade proposal does not vault you past LAL this year, then start the Big 5 and hope to get off to a fast start against the better teams. Rotate in our solid bench guys when we need defensive stops.

Next year, after the expansion draft, pick up the other pieces needed in FA, mostly another center. There are several available who can help us then.

SaltwaterChaffy · 12-08-2003, 06:56 PM

I love the idea of this trade. It seems to work out for both teams in terms of talent. I would love to have T-Mac here, and I think we could challenge right now for the championship, but certainly would be in contention for the next 5 years.

But something seems askew. Maybe I missed it while scrolling through the thread. If so, someone point it out to me.

Why would Orlando take on these contracts? They would be stuck with 3 max player deals. AW's expires in a year and a half, but AJ's and Fin's last another 5 or so years, correct? Why would this be acceptable in their eyes?

LRB · 12-08-2003, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Stew3636
I personally like just shipping antoine and fin for hill and tracy, and if orlando has reason to believe tracy will jet in the offseason they would do it. This is also coming from a big antawn jamison fan however.

Personally I'd like to be able to hand a bank clerk 3 5's and get a 20 in return. I just don't plan on that happening. The same would be true with Orlando. It's all 3 that KG proposed on it's not happening. Maybe we could finagle a minor additional concession out of Orlando, but not including Jamison is not a minor concession. Not going to happen if we leave him out.

LRB · 12-08-2003, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: uberfan
Hill facing 5th surgery and possibility of retirement. Orlando is better off holding on to him than making the trade as proposed. If he retires they would get cap relief much sooner (unless Walker opts out which is not likely).

I just don't see Z as a help to this team, unless you are willing to change to a half-court style offense. Ilike Mihm better than Z at this time for a number of reasons aleady discussed elsewhere.

The reality is that the best option for the Mavs is to stay with what we have. If all here are willing to conced that this trade proposal does not vault you past LAL this year, then start the Big 5 and hope to get off to a fast start against the better teams. Rotate in our solid bench guys when we need defensive stops.

Next year, after the expansion draft, pick up the other pieces needed in FA, mostly another center. There are several available who can help us then.

Even if Hill's salary goes off the books, Orlando still doesn't have that much cap room. Certainly not to get the caliber of players we'd be offering.

LRB · 12-08-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Stressboy
LRB,

I just think that any rookie, especially one that is an energy player is only good for 20-25 minutes a night. The Refs will give no love to the guy for 1-2 seasons and we could not depend on him for 30-35 like you need for a starter. Down the road this trade pays off, but not this year. Also, the biggest issue you would have trying to trade with Orlando, is they would want Josh Howard instead of AJ. Fin/Walker/Josh Howard would give them much more cap flexibility. I'm sure they think as we all do that, Josh is probably going to be as good as Jamison down the road. He could be better with his defense.

Nash/McGrady/Jamison/Dirk/Bradley(now you really have something for this year) Najera/Fortson/Danials/Best/DeClercq off the bench.

Lou/Fin/Josh Howard/Walker/J Howard only 2 max contracts and 1 is only for this year and the next. They will probably get a lottery pick out this year unless this team were to just destroy the east. It would be best for them to wait until the deadline to ensure as bad a record as possible.

Rooks can and have gotten 30 to 35 minutes per game. But Jamison isn't even getting that, so we don't have to have him come in with that much. Besides it's not like we're going to win the championship this year. So we make the trade for next year. Either we get a new coach, or we keep waiting for Shaq to get old and retire, or just injured, so we can make a strong run. Heck even if something happens this year, we're not necessarily any worse off than before. TMac could be just the explosive penetrator and scorer that this team needs to push them over the top. I like the players we have now, but I don't like the team. We have possibly more talent now overall, but it's much more diltued. I like our chances with a condensed talent with this trade.

Mavs Rule · 12-08-2003, 09:43 PM

I would love to have T-mac, but this trade has alot of downside for the mavs IMO.

We lose all depth and would have no bench at all with the exception of Juwan. That is going to put tremendous pressure on the starters. Having Juwan Howard back on the team is not attractive at all. He is a matador, and with him, our second team would be LUCKY just to keep pace with the opponent's bench.

We lose the increased rebounding we have been experiencing. Dirk would have to revert to last years 10 boards/game to keep us competitive.

I don't think Josh would be ready to take this kind of responsibility this soon, and could be detrimental to his long-term growth. Plus as a starter he would hurt us in shooting percentage immediately IMO, unless he toned down his number of shots/minute. He also might hurt us in the playoffs with his inexperience short-term.

What if T-mac bolts once his contract is up? Then we are left with a huge hole that there will be no way to fill. While unlikely, we could drop to possibly a non-playoff team, since everyone would key on Dirk and Steve.

This still doesn't address our lack of a good center.

That said, I would like like to have another penetrator who can also dish other than Nash . It would open up Dirk unbelievably! But, I don't see how the few positives will outweigh the negatives. I would think Orlando would jump on this trade, but I would expect to see reservation from the Mavs. After all, they have lost 19 in a row for a reason.

Max Power · 12-08-2003, 11:44 PM

Walker currently gets 36.9 minutes - 17.2 ppg and 10.3 boards
Finley currently gets 38.4 minutes - 16.3 ppg and 4.7 boards
Jamison currently gets 29.2 minutes - 14.4 ppg and 6.7 boards
Total 104.5 minutes - 47.9 ppg and 21.7 boards

Dirk currently gets 35.1 minutes - 19.2 ppg and 7.3 boards. There is no reason to assume that Dirk can't resume last year's production of 39.0 minutes, 25.1 ppg and 9.9 boards. An increase of 3.9 minutes, 5.9 ppg, and 2.6 boards

McGrady currently gets 39.5 minutes - 24.8 ppg and 6.3 boards. He would have the same minutes and production with the Mavs

Juwan currently gets 33.7 minutes - 14.2 ppg and 6.9 boards. He would probably get cut to 28.5 minutes or so which would be 12.0 ppg and 5.6 boards

Josh currently gets 15.9 minutes - 6.4 ppg and 4.7 boards. He would probably get increased to 24.0 minutes or so which would be 9.6 ppg and 8.4 boards. An increase of 8.1 minutes, 3.2 ppg, and 3.7 boards

The planned additions and changes would be 80 mintues, 45.9 ppg & 18.2 boards

That leaves another 24.5 minutes to add 2.0 ppg and 3.5 boards. Even TAW could do THAT.

Jeremiah · 12-08-2003, 11:51 PM

I'd like to see TMac in Dallas, it'd be pretty cool. He'd give us a slashing, posting up, jumpshooting superstar that would put even more butts in the seats. He might just be the answer to the Mavs not having a center and winning a championship. Dirk and Tmac and Nash would make a pretty scary threesome.

I don't however, think #5 is ready for a full game every game. 20 min max per. That potential that is so obvious now, I don't think would be playing nearly a full game every game...but that's besides the point, I'm sure Nellie could make it work by using Delk or Best, or the former #5...which, I, btw, think played well when he was here, and wouldn't mind having back.

Back to the trade. I think it'd be a steal for the Mavs and I'd vote for it. There's one thing though that I think some in support of it are missing. If Tmac comes, you can forget seeing the offense run through Dirk. It'll go through Tmac, and he'll be jordan with Dirk playing pippen. That'll happen because Nellie will make it happen, and Tmac will relish that role. I've no problem with that, though.

StupidDannyAInge · 12-09-2003, 12:31 AM

Tracy Mcgrady doesn't mind sharing the ball with the likes of his teammates because they are a bunch of no names in Orlando. If one of them started getting more attention then him (Like Vince Carter got in Toronto)
you wouldn't see him passing the ball or being a good teammate.
There are more to trades then just getting rid of people you don't like.

If you got Mcgrady you might as well say goodbye to Nash and Dirk because I am sure they wouldn't want to play for a team where the new guy was a ball hog. This is exactly what Tracy would be if he came here and had to share the spotlight with Nash and Dirk.

Fah Q · 12-09-2003, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge
Tracy Mcgrady doesn't mind sharing the ball with the likes of his teammates because they are a bunch of no names in Orlando. If one of them started getting more attention then him (Like Vince Carter got in Toronto)
you wouldn't see him passing the ball or being a good teammate.
There are more to trades then just getting rid of people you don't like.

If you got Mcgrady you might as well say goodbye to Nash and Dirk because I am sure they wouldn't want to play for a team where the new guy was a ball hog. This is exactly what Tracy would be if he came here and had to share the spotlight with Nash and Dirk.

Antoine Walker is doing what you said McGrady would do by taking the amount of shots he is. Have you heard any of the Mavs complain?

BTW - I would do this trade in a split second.

jayC · 12-09-2003, 12:50 AM

1) We are only 19 games into the season. Its a little early to talk about breaking up the team. To top it off Dirk has missed the past five games and nash has missed parts of two others.

That being said if you told me we didn't have to give up nash or Dirk to get T-Mac. Duh! Id do it in a heartbeat. As good as Jamison and Walker are they both are tweeners not really a powerforward not really a small forward. As much as Nellie loves Walker you don't get a chance to trade for a top five player often. What ever we get from Juwan and DeClerq is really icing on top.

thewillis12 · 12-09-2003, 12:57 AM

i would never do this trade. doing this trade shows that you are not a true mavs fan. everyone agrees that dirk is the franchise player. bring in mcgrady and you have another ball hog who wants to shoot20 - 25 times. this would NOT imporve us.

thewillis12 · 12-09-2003, 12:57 AM

i would never do this trade. doing this trade shows that you are not a true mavs fan. everyone agrees that dirk is the franchise player. bring in mcgrady and you have another ball hog who wants to shoot20 - 25 times. this would NOT imporve us.

Dirkenstien · 12-09-2003, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge
Tracy Mcgrady doesn't mind sharing the ball with the likes of his teammates because they are a bunch of no names in Orlando. If one of them started getting more attention then him (Like Vince Carter got in Toronto)
you wouldn't see him passing the ball or being a good teammate.
There are more to trades then just getting rid of people you don't like.

If you got Mcgrady you might as well say goodbye to Nash and Dirk because I am sure they wouldn't want to play for a team where the new guy was a ball hog. This is exactly what Tracy would be if he came here and had to share the spotlight with Nash and Dirk.

One of the reasons Doc Rivers pushed for letting Troy Hudson go in the offseason was because he felt Tmac needed to develope into the leader of the team and carry them on their shoulders, basically meaning Tmac passed up too much by not being selfish. T mac averaged about 6 assist per game last year whereas Walker averaged about 5 so if anything we get a player who is more likely to pass it up.

He's an incredible athlete that can drive to the hole and get to the foul line or dish it out to the perimeter where nash or Dirk would be waiting. Either way he's helping the team and creating the plays..i dont think anyone would overlook his contributions therefore reducing the probability that he would hate to co-exist with great NBA talent. In fact, considering how much he's been losing with Orlando he may actually prefer it. Oh, and when Tmac was with Toronto it was a completely different situation...he was still trying to get his name out and earn an honest paycheck...now obviously everyone in the league is aware of who he is and what he can do.

Dirkenstien · 12-09-2003, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: thewillis12
i would never do this trade. doing this trade shows that you are not a true mavs fan. everyone agrees that dirk is the franchise player. bring in mcgrady and you have another ball hog who wants to shoot20 - 25 times. this would NOT imporve us.

Another ball hog? ..we'd be shipping Walker, Finley, and Jamison out...meaning we'd have Dirk (not a ball hog) Nash..obviously not a ball hog, and McGrady who in my opinion is not a ball hog, also you have to consider as I have stated above that TMac statistically is more of a passer than Walker. The rest of the players on the court would definitely not be considered ball hogs..so where is your logic?

EricaLubarsky · 12-09-2003, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: XERXES
Do we really want to rely on the core components of a team on a 19 game losing streak to improve our team?

hehe that sounded a lot like the old addage

you can take players off a stinky team, but you cant get the stink out of the players

Simon2 · 12-09-2003, 08:53 AM

No way! That's basically McGRady for 3 good guys. He's good but he's not that good.

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The other day I suggested some changes that could be made to "fix" the Mavericks. This is the second installment of "The Solution", and it involves a mammoth trade that I think would turn the Mavericks into legitimate title contenders -- now, and in the years to come.

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

Dallas receives: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.9 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)

Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

+++

We'd have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan - Najera
Josh Howard
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

And if you want to take it even one step further, you deal Najera for Mihm and Sundov.

Mihm - Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan
Josh
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk

Thoughts are welcome...

Ummmmm Ok · 12-09-2003, 09:06 AM

Would have to wait until the 20th before any trade went down
Antoine Walker Dallas Recently was traded 20th December, 2003
Juwan Howard Orlando Recently signed a contract 15th December, 2003
Scottie Pippen Chicago Recently signed a contract 15th December, 2003

Dallas trades:
PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)
Dallas receives:
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
SG Grant Hill (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +4.1 ppg, +2.3 rpg, and -0.4 apg.

Orlando trades:
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
SG Grant Hill (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
Orlando receives:
PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Scottie Pippen (7.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.9 apg in 12 games)
PF Marcus Fizer (6.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 8 games)
Change in team outlook: +7.8 ppg, +7.6 rpg, and +3.4 apg.

Chicago trades:
SF Scottie Pippen (7.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 2.9 apg in 22.3 minutes)
PF Marcus Fizer (6.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.3 apg in 10.0 minutes)
PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes)
Chicago receives:
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: -11.9 ppg, -9.9 rpg, and -3.0 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

I like this trade better for the Dallas standpoint. We would have a lineup of: Nash, McGrady, Josh H., Dirk, Chandler. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Chicago has a logjam now at the pf/c Positions so why not just clean some of that up and get a real Scorer in Jamison. They would still have Davis and Curry to fill in at the Center position for the loss of Chandler.

Orlando is the catcher. They would lose McGrady and Howard, but get back Finley, Walker, Fizer, and Pippen. This is a very old lineup, but it will have lots of leadership. Lue, Finley, Pippen, Walker, and Gooden/Fizer would work out pretty good in the East.

p.s. As to KG's Proposal, Orlando would jump all over that trade. I just don't think Dallas would do that trade without addressing their need for a big man.

kg_veteran · 12-09-2003, 09:41 AM

Psychedelic Fuzz and Stressboy - You hit on one thing about my trade. It REALLY starts
to pay off in the years to come. I think the team is just as good this year, but
it certainly makes the team better down the road.

thebac - I think you're right when you say any Mavs fan who says they wouldn't do this is a
crazy homer, but apparently we have a couple of crazy homers floating around on the board, because
I haven't seen unanimous support for my trade proposal. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

kg_veteran · 12-09-2003, 09:42 AM

Ummm OK, no offense, but that trade proposal is a bit ridiculous. You couldn't get Chandler alone for Jamison. No way the Bulls also give up Pippen and Fizer.

Stressboy · 12-09-2003, 10:22 AM

No one has really addressed my point that Orlando only does the trade with Fin/Walker/Josh Howard for T-Mac/Hill and they would probably want Najera to boot. I really think Josh Howard has the skills and the freakish build to be the next Pippen, so would you guys trade Finley/Walker/Pippen at age 24 for T-Mac and an awful contract?

I think you give up too much, but the good thing is that you could always trade McGrady away if it did not work. Also, who said that Grant Hills salary will come off soon? He plans on playing this year and I'm pretty sure that to retire, you have to be out for 1 full year and then most of the next year. I would say that Hill's contract is for at least this year and 2 more.

Stressboy

kg_veteran · 12-09-2003, 10:54 AM

Stressboy, I see your point but disagree. I don't think they'd want Howard over Jamison at this point.

The huge salaries coming from Dallas, IMO, are the biggest reason the trade wouldn't happen.

jimmychipwood · 12-09-2003, 11:08 AM

You know, if I was Orlando, I think I would do the trade for Fin/Walker/Howard/Najera/#1 pick next year for T-Mac/Hill.

But even that is not for sure. You have to remember, Fin is a bad contract as well. We take on Hill's, which is worse, but we give them Fin's. Walker's comes off the books soon, but with their point guard situation he would be a good addition to that team. Howard, Najera, and the #1 pick would give the Magic something to start the rebuilding process.

On our side, Hill might come back and give us a few games at the end of the season/playoffs.

Nash - Best - Daniels "Tie" - now "tie"
McGrady - Delk - Daniels "Mavs +1" - now "Lakers +3"
Jamison - McGrady, Steffanson, (Hill) "Mavs +1" - now "Mavs +1"
Nowitzki - Fortson "Mavs +3" - now "Mavs +3"
Bradley - Nowitzki, Fortson "Lakers +5" - now "Lakers +5"

It obviously leaves us with a short bench, but we matchup or are better than the Lakers at every position but one. See +/- to the Lakers in quotations. And when playoff time comes, it is our starters that make the difference. Plus, we put a team on the floor good at their positions.

kg_veteran · 12-09-2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

You know, if I was Orlando, I think I would do the trade for Fin/Walker/Howard/Najera/#1 pick next year for T-Mac/Hill.

No point in considering this. This doesn't work under the CBA.

jimmychipwood · 12-09-2003, 11:49 AM

I forgot to say T-Mac/Hill + cap fodder.