Official: Rondo to Dallas!!

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Whatever "spacing issues" might have been a concern with Rondo and Ellis have been alleviated by Parsons' ability to knock down the outside shot... Not to mention that Ellis has been doing more damage from the midrange since Rondo got here.

I'm by no means agreeing with MavsFan here, but I did want to point out that this isn't strictly true (yet).

Offense is down appreciably since the trade. El is correct that it is trending up over the last three games, but we're certainly not to the point that we can say that there are no more offensive concerns.

But the improvement in defense has been very reassuring, and we don't even have a real backup center yet.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

I thought it would be. But Rondo has shot better than I thought as well as defended better. Both things he struggled with in his last 2 years with the Celtics. So now I'm more optimistic than before. But still question if he can sustain this level.

You're wondering if a guy who just joined a new team can "sustain" his level of play?? If anything, he's only going to get better as he gels more with this squad... You can pretty much chalk up his two-year slump to being on a team that had no interest in winning games.

[sefant77]

At least we know that Nelson and Wright couldnt sustain any level of defense...so again, where is here the potential downgrade?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm by no means agreeing with MavsFan here, but I did want to point out that this isn't strictly true (yet).

Offense is down appreciably since the trade. El is correct that it is trending up over the last three games, but we're certainly not to the point that we can say that there are no more offensive concerns.

But the improvement in defense has been very reassuring, and we don't even have a real backup center yet.

Every team has offensive concerns, but I'm far less concerned with Rondo than I was with Wright/Nelson/Crowder. Each of those guys had a one-dimensional game, whereas Rondo can do all sorts of things to help this team win -- even when his shot isn't falling.

I haven't checked the stats (small sample sizes during transitional periods mean squat), but my eyeballs tell me that our offensive slippage has less to do with Rondo than it does with our bench trying to figure out how to re-tool without Wright.

[sefant77]

Yeah sure, specially Harris struggles a little bit to create thos easy buckets. It will take some time to get him used with the "new 2nd unit" Jefferson/Smith/Villa.

And you can just single out Dirks shooting slump. In the past 7 games with Rondo, how many open looks he bricked? Let him shoot normal and the Mavs offense with Rondo is 3-4 PPG better, at least...

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by sefant77

At least we know that Nelson and Wright couldnt sustain any level of defense...so again, where is here the potential downgrade?

Wright was dominant around the rim offensively. And don't forget Crowder's defense. We traded 3 rotation players for 1. So that 1 better make up for a lost of depth.

[sefant77]

Calling Rondo a rotation player...yeah sure.

And like allready told, every player traded had huge flaws in his game. Wright could just score and also just score in one way. Crowder couldnt handle or create....

Rondo can do EVERYTHING except shoot the ball well from outside. Didnt stop him to drop 44 in a playoff game against prime Lebron...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Every team has offensive concerns, but I'm far less concerned with Rondo than I was with Wright/Nelson/Crowder. Each of those guys had a one-dimensional game, whereas Rondo can do all sorts of things to help this team win -- even when his shot isn't falling.

Agree that Rondo can do more to help the team win, but that has more to do with his defense/rebounding/intangibles. Wright was a better offensive player in this system than Rondo will be.

I haven't checked the stats (small sample sizes during transitional periods mean squat), but my eyeballs tell me that our offensive slippage has less to do with Rondo than it does with our bench trying to figure out how to re-tool without Wright.

That's just not the case. At least not yet. The "core 4" (if you will) with Rondo has scored at a SIGNIFICANTLY worse rate than it did with Nelson or than it did/does with Harris. Given the personnel, I think that's expected. I think the Mavs knew that would happen when they made the trade. But they also expected the corresponding improvement on defense, which is more important.

I think the poor fit offensively (imo) is at least part of the reason that Rondo has already been moved into a rotation where he subs out with Dirk early in the first/third. This brings Harris in with the starting group earlier, and moves Rondo into lineups where he can help the second unit with his playmaking.

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm not in any way criticizing the trade. I was leery of Rondo's fit weeks before the trade started brewing, but as it got close I was fully in favor of it. But I just don't think it's necessary to overstate how well it's working. It IS working, but it's working because of the defense. The offense has suffered, and I think it will continue to regress to eventually rank between 4-8, as opposed to our historically great offensive rate pre-trade. And that's ok, as long as our defense continues to improve and move toward a top 10 ranking.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Wright was dominant around the rim offensively. And don't forget Crowder's defense. We traded 3 rotation players for 1. So that 1 better make up for a lost of depth.

Crowder didn't play much outside of garbage time, Wright was a 17 MPG bench player, and Nelson was the worst starting point guard in the league. Meanwhile, Rondo is a top-3 NBA point guard with 4 All-Star appearances and was instrumental in the Celtics winning their last championship -- plus he's still young enough to be a franchise cornerstone for several years to come... So yeah, I'd say that Rondo MORE than makes up for the loss of depth.

Not to mention that our team was deep as hell last year, but we couldn't beat the Spurs in the first round because we had the worst starting 5 out of any team in the WC playoffs. That's not going to be a problem this year (oh, and our bench is still plenty talented).

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Agree that Rondo can do more to help the team win, but that has more to do with his defense/rebounding/intangibles. Wright was a better offensive player in this system than Rondo will be.



That's just not the case. At least not yet. The "core 4" (if you will) with Rondo has scored at a SIGNIFICANTLY worse rate than it did with Nelson or than it did/does with Harris. Given the personnel, I think that's expected. I think the Mavs knew that would happen when they made the trade. But they also expected the corresponding improvement on defense, which is more important.

I think the poor fit offensively (imo) is at least part of the reason that Rondo has already been moved into a rotation where he subs out with Dirk early in the first/third. This brings Harris in with the starting group earlier, and moves Rondo into lineups where he can help the second unit with his playmaking.

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm not in any way criticizing the trade. I was leery of Rondo's fit weeks before the trade started brewing, but as it got close I was fully in favor of it. But I just don't think it's necessary to overstate how well it's working. It IS working, but it's working because of the defense. The offense has suffered, and I think it will continue to regress to eventually rank between 4-8, as opposed to our historically great offensive rate pre-trade. And that's ok, as long as our defense continues to improve and move toward a top 10 ranking.

Well said. Hoping Rondo does that much for us defensively.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Crowder didn't played much outside of garbage time, Wright was a 17 MPG bench player, and Nelson was the worst starting point guard in the league. Meanwhile, Rondo is a top-3 NBA point guard with 4 All-Star appearances and was instrumental in the Celtics winning their last championship -- plus he's still young enough to be a franchise cornerstone for several years to come... So yeah, I'd say that Rondo MORE than makes up for the loss of depth.

Not to mention that our team was deep as hell last year, but we couldn't beat the Spurs in the first round because we had the worst starting 5 out of any team in the WC playoffs. That's not going to be a problem this year (oh, and our bench is still plenty talented).

People don't realize just how bad Nelson really was. You want your starters to be top-30 in the league to even justify starting.

61st in PER among PGs
68th in Value Added among PGs
59th in TS%

That puts him as one of the worst PGs in the league. Period. Not worst starter, but worst backup PG as well. Even some third stringers are having a better year than him. Meanwhile Wright was 46th in rebounding. Just an awful defender and rebounder.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Crowder didn't play much outside of garbage time, Wright was a 17 MPG bench player, and Nelson was the worst starting point guard in the league. Meanwhile, Rondo is a top-3 NBA point guard with 4 All-Star appearances and was instrumental in the Celtics winning their last championship -- plus he's still young enough to be a franchise cornerstone for several years to come... So yeah, I'd say that Rondo MORE than makes up for the loss of depth.

Not to mention that our team was deep as hell last year, but we couldn't beat the Spurs in the first round because we had the worst starting 5 out of any team in the WC playoffs. That's not going to be a problem this year (oh, and our bench is still plenty talented).

Tired of you using your disagreements with me to the reputation system. So uncalled for. Especially for a mod where higher standards are expected.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Tired of you using your disagreements with me to the reputation system. So uncalled for. Especially for a mod where higher standards are expected.

If he's harassing you, let the mods know. Otherwise, that is exactly the reason we have the rep system-- to allow posters to voice their opinion of specific posts.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

We were like 7th seed when we got Rondo. We've moved up to 4th. We are one game behind 3rd. We have a four game winning streak and, as long as we stay focused, could take this streak all the way to our meeting with the Grizzlies on the 19th.

The trade is working out. If Smith develops and Charlie V can keep producing, we are looking good. JO would just be the icing on the cake.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

If he's harassing you, let the mods know. Otherwise, that is exactly the reason we have the rep system-- to allow posters to voice their opinion of specific posts.

He's negative repped me like 20 times. Always looking to throw an insult in there as well. Just because I don't see eye to eye with him. It's like a fixation to take me down. It's been like that way since I joined this board.

[jthig32]

Rondo is not even close to being top 3 in the NBA at PG. It's possible to defend the trade without overstating things to that degree.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

People don't realize just how bad Nelson really was. You want your starters to be top-30 in the league to even justify starting.

61st in PER among PGs
68th in Value Added among PGs
59th in TS%

That puts him as one of the worst PGs in the league. Period. Not worst starter, but worst backup PG as well. Even some third stringers are having a better year than him. Meanwhile Wright was 46th in rebounding. Just an awful defender and rebounder.

To be fair, Devin Harris was our starting PG. He played the most minutes and closed every game. Nelson was our backup PG, and played like one (a poor one).

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

He's negative repped me like 20 times. Always looking to throw an insult in there as well. Just because I don't see eye to eye with him. It's like a fixation to take me down. It's been like that way since I joined this board.

"Throw an insult in there"?? My rep comment said "wat" in response to you saying Rondo had a career game the other night... Just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I'm not allowed to use the rep system.

Make better posts, get better rep... That's on you, bro.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Rondo is not even close to being top 3 in the NBA at PG. It's possible to defend the trade without overstating things to that degree.

As far as pure 2-way points go, name 3 better.

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by Underdog

As far as pure 2-way points go, name 3 better.

I realize most won't view it as I do, but I truly believe come playoff time Rondo will EASILY be a top 3 PG in the league. I just think his brand of basketball translates really well to playoff basketball.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

As far as pure 2-way points go, name 3 better.

Unquestionably better:
Paul
Wall
Curry
Lillard
Westbrook

Most would take over Rondo:
Conley
Irving
Bledsoe
Dragic

In the converations:
Jeff Teague
Derrick Rose



Here's the thing: MavsFan seems a bit biased, and hasn't articulated his points very well. But his overall point - that this trade is not a slam dunk - is FAR from a controversial stance. Very respected and informed NBA analysts have written quite a bit about this trade, and I would honestly say there's just as much question and concern about it as there is positivity.

There's no reason to act like anyone questioning the merits of the trade or the fit of Rondo on offense is an idiot. They are valid concerns.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by hayth.james.g

I realize most won't view it as I do, but I truly believe come playoff time Rondo will EASILY be a top 3 PG in the league. I just think his brand of basketball translates really well to playoff basketball.

The idea that he'll be "easily" better than 3 of Curry/Paul/Westbrook/Lillard/Wall is...well...it's rather insane.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Agree that Rondo can do more to help the team win, but that has more to do with his defense/rebounding/intangibles. Wright was a better offensive player in this system than Rondo will be.



That's just not the case. At least not yet. The "core 4" (if you will) with Rondo has scored at a SIGNIFICANTLY worse rate than it did with Nelson or than it did/does with Harris. Given the personnel, I think that's expected. I think the Mavs knew that would happen when they made the trade. But they also expected the corresponding improvement on defense, which is more important.

I think the poor fit offensively (imo) is at least part of the reason that Rondo has already been moved into a rotation where he subs out with Dirk early in the first/third. This brings Harris in with the starting group earlier, and moves Rondo into lineups where he can help the second unit with his playmaking.

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm not in any way criticizing the trade. I was leery of Rondo's fit weeks before the trade started brewing, but as it got close I was fully in favor of it. But I just don't think it's necessary to overstate how well it's working. It IS working, but it's working because of the defense. The offense has suffered, and I think it will continue to regress to eventually rank between 4-8, as opposed to our historically great offensive rate pre-trade. And that's ok, as long as our defense continues to improve and move toward a top 10 ranking.

I think his insertion may have hurt us initially on the offensive side, but the last three games we outscored our pre-Rondo average. I think our last three games were 112, 114 and 119. Our pre-Rondo average was like 110. Even the best of the best All Stars are going to need to take a few games to get acclimated, especially when your position is the QB of the team. There's no reason for me to believe that this current team can't keep the average of about 110PPG going. The idea that it's looking like we are going to limit our opponent's PPG even more with the addition of Rondo is encouraging. The fact that in seven games we've shot up three seeds in the West is even more encouraging.

[EricaLubarsky]

I see Rondo like I see Chandler-- he's not flashy and perhaps not in the debate for best center or best PG.

Still, he seems like a great fit and a guy who steps it up rather than disappearing in big games and I honestly wouldn't trade Chandler for Howard or Rondo for Paul or Lillard.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Unquestionably better:
Paul
Wall
Curry
Lillard
Westbrook

Most would take over Rondo:
Conley
Irving
Bledsoe
Dragic

In the converations:
Jeff Teague
Derrick Rose



Here's the thing: MavsFan seems a bit biased, and hasn't articulated his points very well. But his overall point - that this trade is not a slam dunk - is FAR from a controversial stance. Very respected and informed NBA analysts have written quite a bit about this trade, and I would honestly say there's just as much question and concern about it as there is positivity.

There's no reason to act like anyone questioning the merits of the trade or the fit of Rondo on offense is an idiot. They are valid concerns.

Rondo did a job on both Wall and Westbrook this week. Remember when Westbrook couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at the end of the OKC game? That was because of Rondo. So there's that. Dragic had a good game against Rondo, but it wasn't as good as the first time we played Phoenix and he destroyed Nelson.

Excited to see him go up against Irving and Paul this week.

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by Underdog

"Throw an insult in there"?? My rep comment said "wat" in response to you saying Rondo had a career game the other night... Just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I'm not allowed to use the rep system.

Make better posts, get better rep... That's on you, bro.

Yeah well the comment before that one said trash. And you had worse comments before becoming a mod. I'm done complaining as I see it is taking away from the discussion.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

I think his insertion may have hurt us initially on the offensive side, but the last three games we outscored our pre-Rondo average. I think our last three games were 112, 114 and 119. Our pre-Rondo average was like 110. Even the best of the best All Stars are going to need to take a few games to get acclimated, especially when your position is the QB of the team. There's no reason for me to believe that this current team can't keep the average of about 110PPG going. The idea that it's looking like we are going to limit our opponent's PPG even more with the addition of Rondo is encouraging. The fact that in seven games we've shot up three seeds in the West is even more encouraging.

PPG isn't really a valid metric, as it doesn't account for pace. Using Offensive Rate (points per 100 possessions) The OKC game was below average for us, the Washington game was a tiny tick above, and last night was outstanding.

I absolutely agree that it will take time for players to acclimate to each other, and it's entirely possible that our offense will rebound back to its prior levels. But I think that's unlikely, given what we lost in Wright and what Rondo brings to the table.

Agree that the defense is encouraging. It's incredibly encouraging. It's THE reason to be excited about the results of this trade so far.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yeah well the comment before that one said trash. And you had worse comments before becoming a mod. I'm done complaining as I see it is taking away from the discussion.

Perhaps it would better to handle your private complaints in private or at least in a less public place. You may be genuinely looking for resolution, but when done publicly, it looks like you are merely stoking the flames of the argument.

Also, how does it take away from the discussion if it stays in private? The rep system is designed to be a private way to give feedback (both positive and negative). Right now the only thing taking away from the discussion is your private spat that you've taken public right in the middle of an active discussion thread.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

Rondo did a job on both Wall and Westbrook this week. Remember when Westbrook couldn't hit the broadside of a barn at the end of the OKC game? That was because of Rondo. So there's that. Dragic had a good game against Rondo, but it wasn't as good as the first time we played Phoenix and he destroyed Nelson.

Yes, Rondo and the team had good defensive games against those two (although if you go back and watch the OKC game I think you'll see you're giving waaaay too much credit to Rondo. He was huge in crunch time, but was hardly responsible for the overall poor night from Westbrook).

Are you going to claim, on the backs of those two games, that Rondo's a better player? Because that's not a very strong argument.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yeah well the comment before that one said trash. And you had worse comments before becoming a mod. I'm done complaining as I see it is taking away from the discussion.

Because your post was trash. That's on you.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yes, Rondo and the team had good defensive games against those two (although if you go back and watch the OKC game I think you'll see you're giving waaaay too much credit to Rondo. He was huge in crunch time, but was hardly responsible for the overall poor night from Westbrook).

Are you going to claim, on the backs of those two games, that Rondo's a better player? Because that's not a very strong argument.

Ok. So I guess Westbrook would have had the same terrible night with Jameer Nelson on him? Ok. Agree to disagree.

I'm not making the claim that he's a top 3 PG. I am picking apart your list of point guards by pointing out that he's already been able to hang with two of the people in your first-tier.

Frankly, I don't give a shit if Rondo is a top 3 PG. I care that he does a decent job of making people like Westbrook and Wall's life difficult (which he has done). We also need him to get some good offense going (and he is).

And also, having Rondo be huge in crunch time against people like RUSSELL FRIGGIN WESTBROOK is exactly the reason we got him!

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Unquestionably better:
Paul
Wall
Curry
Lillard
Westbrook

Most would take over Rondo:
Conley
Irving
Bledsoe
Dragic

In the converations:
Jeff Teague
Derrick Rose

Curry and Paul aside, I think Rondo would make the game a lot harder for any of those guys than they would for him, especially in the playoffs.

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Curry and Paul aside, I think Rondo would make the game a lot harder for any of those guys than they would for him, especially in the playoffs.

We play Paul next week. I'm salivating. Can't wait for that matchup.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

Frankly, I don't give a shit if Rondo is a top 3 PG. I care that he does a decent job of making people like Westbrook and Wall's life difficult (which he has done). We also need him to get some good offense going (and he is).

And also, having Rondo be huge in crunch time against people like RUSSELL FRIGGIN WESTBROOK is exactly the reason we got him!

Excellent! We agree!

Originally Posted by Underdog

Curry and Paul aside, I think Rondo would make the game a lot harder for any of those guys than they would for him, especially in the playoffs.

Oh, I suspect Lillard and Westbrook and Wall would/will make life quite miserable for the Mavs in their own way in a playoff matchup. Rondo will absolutely help defensively, but the Mavs would trade Rondo for any of those guys in a nanosecond.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

We play Paul next week. I'm salivating. Can't wait for that matchup.

Honestly, I love that we no longer have to be terrified of top-tier guards carving us up like a Thanksgiving turkey... Rondo/Harris is an excellent two-way punch at the point, and even Barea puts more effort into defense than any of our post-Kidd PGs (Collison/Calderon/Nelson were just awful defenders).

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Excellent! We agree!



Oh, I suspect Lillard and Westbrook and Wall would/will make life quite miserable for the Mavs in their own way in a playoff matchup. Rondo will absolutely help defensively, but the Mavs would trade Rondo for any of those guys in a nanosecond.

I think Westbrook would score a lot of points for us, but do you really think he would fit well into our system? To me, a pass-first PG like Rondo is ideal the Mavs starting 5 that is full of scorers.

To me Westbrook is more like Ellis. Although he does get more assists, he shoots a lot more than he passes.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

I think Westbrook would score a lot of points for us, but do you really think he would fit well into our system? To me, a pass-first PG like Rondo is ideal for a starting 5 that is full of scorers.

Westbrook is a top 5-10 player in the NBA. In a hypothetical scenario where you can add a player like that, you're not real concerned about fit.

And for the record, I can't stand the way Westbrook plays. I love precise, methodical players (which I why I love watching Parsons on this team). But Westbrook is an unbelievable player.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Oh, I suspect Lillard and Westbrook and Wall would/will make life quite miserable for the Mavs in their own way in a playoff matchup. Rondo will absolutely help defensively, but the Mavs would trade Rondo for any of those guys in a nanosecond.

I realize I'm probably in a very tiny minority here, but I absolutely hate Russell Westbrook as a point guard... The guy has a tendency to take the ball out of Durant's hands, rather than put it there (and his defense is ridiculously sub-par for an "elite" player).

And to kick the "insanity" up another notch: I think if OKC would have pulled the trigger on that Rondo-for-Westbrook offer a few years back, they would have beat the Heat in the Finals... They were one defensive-minded, pass-first guard away from being able to win that series.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I realize I'm probably in a very tiny minority here, but I absolutely hate Russell Westbrook as a point guard... The guy has a tendency to take the ball out of Durant's hands, rather than put it there (and his defense is ridiculously sub-par for an "elite" player).

And to kick the "insanity" up another notch: I think if OKC would have pulled the trigger on that Rondo-for-Westbrook offer a few years back, they would have beat the Heat in the Finals... They were one defensive-minded, pass-first guard away from being able to win that series.

Oh man, I strongly disagree on that last point. With Rondo and Thabo and Perkins, they wouldn't have had enough offense on the floor. KD would have been swarmed.

As I said above (while you were posting) I strongly dislike Westbrook's game from a stylistic standpoint. But to me, his results have reached the point where his overall impact is beyond reproach. He's an elite player.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Oh man, I strongly disagree on that last point. With Rondo and Thabo and Perkins, they wouldn't have had enough offense on the floor. KD would have been swarmed.

James Harden.


EDIT: and they could have afforded to keep him if they had Rondo instead of Westbrook too!