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Old 12-25-2008, 11:20 PM   #41
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Take a drive through town and notice the biggest and shiniest buildings.

A word of advice that stuck with me is this: Vegas didn't get built because some grandma knew a way to beat the slot machines.

Churches are doing okay. The homeless, not so much.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:21 PM   #42
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The Salvation Army is a church. You can study that out for yourself if you really care to.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:23 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
Take a drive through town and notice the biggest and shiniest buildings.

A word of advice that stuck with me is this: Vegas didn't get built because some grandma knew a way to beat the slot machines.

Churches are doing okay. The homeless, not so much.
dance and dodge. dance and dodge. no wonder you like Obama.

Fact is that the homeless would be a lot worse off without the tireless efforts of faith based groups like the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities and hundreds (maybe thousands) of others.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by jefelump View Post
You don't want to designate churches as charities
Churches AREN'T charities! Churches may or not engage in charitable works, but churches at essence are not charities.

That's just silly, to claim that they are.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:27 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
Churches AREN'T charities! Churches may or not engage in charitable works, but churches at essence are not charities.

That's just silly, to claim that they are.
as Mavdog pointed out, the IRS defines churches as charities. So, you have a definitions problem.

Further, both you and Mavdog did not realize the Salvation Army was a Church. They are so obviously devoted to charitable work that you didn't even recognize it as a Church.

They are obviously a charitable group. They are also a Church.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:31 PM   #46
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dance and dodge. dance and dodge. no wonder you like Obama.

Fact is that the homeless would be a lot worse off without the tireless efforts of faith based groups like the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities and hundreds (maybe thousands) of others.
I have volunteered at two homeless shelters in Dallas (does that count in the survey as giving to charity?) and I can tell you that neither the Salvation Army nor the Catholic Charities were there. In fact, I can tell you that no "faith based" organizations of any kind were there. These were "halfway houses," where guys were trying to make their way back into society after serving terms as felons in the state penitentiary.

No Salvation Army, no Jesus Church...just liberals like me.

Have you spent time with people like that? We should send our data to that jackass who wrote the story, so that he can be better informed.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:34 PM   #47
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Information on the Salvation Army.....

Quote:
Salvation

The Salvation Army was founded as an evangelical organization dedicated to bringing people into a meaningful relationship with God through Christ. Its doctrinal basis is that of the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition. It is composed of persons who are united by the love of God and man, and who share the common purpose of bringing others to Jesus Christ. The word salvation indicates the overall purpose of the organization—to motivate all people to embrace the salvation provided to them in Christ.

The word army indicates that the organization is a fighting force, constantly at war with the powers of evil. Battles are effectively waged through an integrated ministry that gives attention to both body and spirit. It is a total ministry for the total person. The Army cooperates with churches of all denominations to meet the needs of the community. Those who have drifted away from God and those estranged from their own religious affiliations are often attracted to The Salvation Army.They are first urged to seek Christ for pardon and deliverance from sin. Then they are encouraged to return to active membership in their

Active Service

Christianity is synonymous with service for the Salvationist. The distinguishing feature in the religious life of The Salvation Army is active participation by its members.

Corps community centers are the focus of the spiritual work and are organized in a military manner, using military terms throughout. The corps building is sometimes known as the “citadel.” The pastor serves as an “officer.” Members are “soldiers.” This sphere of activity is known as the “field.” Instead of joining The Salvation Army, members are “enrolled” after signing the “Articles of War.” When officers and soldiers die, they are “Promoted to Glory.”

Soldiers are disciples of Jesus Christ and are expected to accept responsibility in the work of The Salvation Army. Whenever possible, they participate in Army meetings. Soldiers may teach Sunday-school classes, play musical instruments, join the band, assist the corps officer in visitation among the poor and sick, or aid in general social work. Soldiers abstain from the use of alcoholic beverages, drugs and tobacco.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
I have volunteered at two homeless shelters in Dallas (does that count in the survey as giving to charity?) and I can tell you that neither the Salvation Army nor the Catholic Charities were there. In fact, I can tell you that no "faith based" organizations of any kind were there. These were "halfway houses," where guys were trying to make their way back into society after serving terms as felons in the state penitentiary.

No Salvation Army, no Jesus Church...just liberals like me.

Have you spent time with people like that? We should send our data to that jackass who wrote the story, so that he can be better informed.
Yes. I have spent a lot of time in places like that. I was a minister before I went to college.

Yes, there are non church associated government run half way houses. There are also 'for profit' structures in that business.

But, there are also Salvation Army and Catholics Charity half way homes. You just volunteered at one that was not church associated.

Doesn't change any of the conversation as to its facts regarding the value of church based charity efforts and the definition of a charitable entity.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:40 PM   #49
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The corps building is sometimes known as the “citadel.” The pastor serves as an “officer.” Members are “soldiers.” This sphere of activity is known as the “field.” Instead of joining The Salvation Army, members are “enrolled” after signing the “Articles of War.” When officers and soldiers die, they are “Promoted to Glory.”

Soldiers are disciples of Jesus Christ and are expected to accept responsibility in the work of The Salvation Army. Whenever possible, they participate in Army meetings. Soldiers may teach Sunday-school classes, play musical instruments, join the band, assist the corps officer in visitation among the poor and sick, or aid in general social work. Soldiers abstain from the use of alcoholic beverages, drugs and tobacco.
You may call that religion, but I call it a cult.

And again, my thanks to you all. They will never see even another nickel from me.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:42 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
You may call that religion, but I call it a cult.

And again, my thanks to you all. They will never see even another nickel from me.
cult is a fun word. The evangelicals call catholics a cult. A cult is basically what you believe is not true.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:43 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by wmbwinn View Post
as Mavdog pointed out, the IRS defines churches as charities. So, you have a definitions problem.
WHAT? you have severe comphrehension issue!
the irs does NOT define churches as charities.
in fact the irs has registration requirements for charities, they don't have the same requirements for churches.

get a clue...

Quote:
Further, both you and Mavdog did not realize the Salvation Army was a Church. They are so obviously devoted to charitable work that you didn't even recognize it as a Church.

They are obviously a charitable group. They are also a Church.
yes, they are a "church", but they are not a typical church in how almost every other church is structured. the military framework, their work outside of a set facility, they are very singular in many ways.

Last edited by Mavdog; 12-25-2008 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:47 PM   #52
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You may call that religion, but I call it a cult.

And again, my thanks to you all. They will never see even another nickel from me.
Oh? You gave to the Salvation Army recently, not knowing they were a church? And now you won't ever do it again. Why the animosity and hatred against religion?
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:54 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by jefelump
Oh? You gave to the Salvation Army recently, not knowing they were a church? And now you won't ever do it again. Why the animosity and hatred against religion?
Being the kind of guy who doesn't like to get involved in other people's affairs, I have neither animosity nor hatred for another man's religion. I do not like, however, to be confronted by it. What's yours is yours and should remain yours. And what's mine should be mine. I should be able to walk into Wal-Mart without considering the idea of whether your religion is the one that will deliver us all to paradise.

So, no more donations from me to the Salvation Army. Glad I learned what I learned tonight.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by chumdawg View Post
Being the kind of guy who doesn't like to get involved in other people's affairs, I have neither animosity nor hatred for another man's religion. I do not like, however, to be confronted by it. What's yours is yours and should remain yours. And what's mine should be mine. I should be able to walk into Wal-Mart without considering the idea of whether your religion is the one that will deliver us all to paradise.

So, no more donations from me to the Salvation Army. Glad I learned what I learned tonight.
I assume when you say "your religion" that you are speaking in generalities. I am not a member of the Salvation Army, in case you were thinking I was trying to push my religion on you.

"What's yours is yours and should remain yours. And what's mine should be mine." I know you're talking about religion with that line, so I'll leave it at that, instead of relating that back to taxes and charity.

But going back to the Bell Ringers.... Why does it have to be about whether or not their religion will deliver us all to paradise? Why can't it just be about helping others? In the end, does the recipient of charity really care if that assistance came from a religious or a non-religious charity? I don't think so.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:12 AM   #55
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Unless there is a special designation that I'm not aware of, offerings to a church are eligible for tax write offs because they are donations to an organized charity, just like any other charitable donations. So clearly the IRS does define churches as charities.

And the notion that churches are not a huge support network for large scale charity movements is ridiculous. Be it supporting missions trips that build schools, supporting orphanages, supporting (or completely running) soup kitchens, etc etc. As I said before, not all churches do the right things with their money. But on whole, the worldwide church is responsbile for a huge portion of charity work around the world.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:19 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by jefelump
But going back to the Bell Ringers.... Why does it have to be about whether or not their religion will deliver us all to paradise? Why can't it just be about helping others? In the end, does the recipient of charity really care if that assistance came from a religious or a non-religious charity? I don't think so.
I highly doubt that the great majority of the change dropped in those buckets makes it to people in need. If there's one thing I know, it's that the "religion" industry is awfully easy to steal from.

I bet that for every quarter I toss in the bucket, at least ten cents lines somebody's pocket. Hell, it's probably twenty cents. Ten to the guy holding the bucket (he's not working for free) and ten to the higher-ups.

There's something about it that just feels dirty. And when it feels dirty, it's probably for good reason.

If you are feeling charitable, give yourself. That way you can be sure that your money isn't siphoned off by 90% before it gets to those who need it.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:22 AM   #57
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no, offerrings to a church are tax deductible but are classified seperately than donations to a qualified charity.

the irs requires charities to register and meet their specifications. there is no such requirement for churches.

again, the irs views charities and churches very differently.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:25 AM   #58
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It would take a lot of nerve to deduct church donations from your taxes.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:50 AM   #59
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It would take a lot of nerve to deduct church donations from your taxes.
It takes no nerve at all. It's perfectly legal, and widely done (and accepted).

Wikipedia
Quote:
Under IRS's IRC Section 170, individuals giving to 501(c)(3) organizations that are either public charities, private operating foundations, and certain private foundations may deduct contributions representing up to 50% of the donor's adjusted gross income if the individual itemizes on his/her tax returns. Individuals giving to 501(c)(3) organizations that are private foundations may generally deduct contributions representing up to 30% of their adjusted gross income. Corporations may deduct all contributions to 501(c)(3) organizations (regardless of foundation status) up to an amount normally equal to 10% of their taxable income.

501(c)(3) status for charities and the related section 170 deduction for donors are important to many charitable groups. Some individuals and groups (and virtually all foundations) will not give to a charity if it does not have 501(c)(3) status (as no tax deduction would be allowed). Therefore, loss of this status can be harmful (if not fatal) to a charity's existence.

Obtaining status

Some organizations automatically acquire 501(c)(3) status upon filing of proper organizational documents (e.g., articles of incorporation as a church), at least until annual income exceeds a statutory threshold. Others will not receive 501(c)(3) status until they file an application and supporting documentation to the IRS and have a certification letter issued. The 501(c)3 application must be accompanied by a $300 application fee if annual income for 1st 4 years is $10,000 or less ($750 if annual income is more than that). [6]The IRS will examine the application and may require further financial and organization information prior to granting the 501(c)(3) status. To cover donations made before the letter is issued, the regulations require prompt filing of the application after organization, or after an existing organization satisfies the criteria for 501(c)(3), or after exceeding the income threshold.
Even though Mavdog claimed 501c was irrelevant earlier, the above is from the tax code. I took it from Wikipedia, only because it was easier to find.

The bolded indicates contributions to 501c3's is tax deductible, and it also says churches are 501c3's. So the IRS grants churches the same standing as other charities. I wonder why that is....
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:01 AM   #60
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I'm just saying that it takes a hard conscience to take that deduction. Poor people don't itemize, so they don't get the financial benefit. And the good that the government does is lessened.

But as they say, chacun a son gout.
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:31 AM   #61
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It takes no nerve at all. It's perfectly legal, and widely done (and accepted).

Wikipedia


Even though Mavdog claimed 501c was irrelevant earlier, the above is from the tax code. I took it from Wikipedia, only because it was easier to find.

The bolded indicates contributions to 501c3's is tax deductible, and it also says churches are 501c3's. So the IRS grants churches the same standing as other charities. I wonder why that is....
the REGISTRATION requirements of 501(3)(c) is not applicable/relevant to churches, and IS applicable/relevant to charities.

there are a wide variety of non-profit orgs that fall under the 501(3)(c) regs, including literary groups, museums, etc. these groups must qualify under the registration rules, and the irs determines if they meet the standards. just like charities.

according to your logic, these groups must also be charities....and they are not.

newsflash: just because an org is governed by 501(3)(c) tax regs does not make it a charity. it just make sit tax exempt.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:31 AM   #62
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I'm just saying that it takes a hard conscience to take that deduction. Poor people don't itemize, so they don't get the financial benefit. And the good that the government does is lessened.
Oh yeah, the good that the government does is amazing. Washington somehow needs to print all the money it now wants to give to Wall Street. I should have paid my taxes... Big pharma is waiting for it's fair share of my taxes, as well... What about the military contractors?

To go along with what you said about giving to the Salvation Army. - I bet 10 cents or 20 cents, or 30 cents, or 40 cents (...) will go to things that I heavily disagree with. If it feels dirty, it probably is dirty, so I won't pay my taxes, because even if I don't donate the money I saved on taxes, the free market will use it better than government ever could.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:06 AM   #63
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I think the argument whether churches are "charities" according to the government is framed in a kind of funny way.

anyhoo...."charity" is part and parcel of christianity, christians being generally commanded by Jesus to take care of the poor and sick and ugly and such. I'm not saying every nickle of tithe goes to helping the sick and poor, of course lot's go to basketball gyms and cadillacs and stuff, but churches themselves provide a really important function and very much provide a social "safety net" for lot's of folks....

...anyway, so conservatives get to count church donations and liberals count as charitable giving musuem donations and money sent to save the friggin' whales and trees -- charities which are in my estimation of less social value than churches.

so let's just say that the exceedingly common liberal objection to church giving rather misses the mark....

....not to mention the fact that conservatives give more blood, a bit of data I believe which overwhelmingly shows that conservatives are more inclined to voluntary giving (a redundant redundancy).

I always thought the more interesting part of such surveys was that poor people give more, at least in relative terms.
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:07 AM   #64
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anyhoo...."charity" is part and parcel of christianity, christians being generally commanded by Jesus to take care of the poor and sick and ugly and such. I'm not saying every nickle of tithe goes to helping the sick and poor, of course lot's go to basketball gyms and cadillacs and stuff, but churches themselves provide a really important function and very much provide a social "safety net" for lot's of folks....
Bingo - live & let live...
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Old 12-26-2008, 11:13 AM   #65
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I guess you shouldn't deduct mortgage interest either because poor people don't deduct taxes. Of course less than 50% of our populace pay any federal taxes TO deduct...but no matter whatever it takes to give away other peoples money.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:01 PM   #66
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...anyway, so conservatives get to count church donations and liberals count as charitable giving musuem donations and money sent to save the friggin' whales and trees -- charities which are in my estimation of less social value than churches.

so let's just say that the exceedingly common liberal objection to church giving rather misses the mark....
well, if the frame is who contributes to pollution and who helps with pollution, with the trees and such helping clean the air, and the televangelist certainly not....the phrase "polluting the airwaves" is certainly appropriate.

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....not to mention the fact that conservatives give more blood, a bit of data I believe which overwhelmingly shows that conservatives are more inclined to voluntary giving (a redundant redundancy).
hmm, last time I gave blood they paid $ for the stuff...."giving" is a bit of a misnomer in that case.

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I always thought the more interesting part of such surveys was that poor people give more, at least in relative terms.
absolutely true, empathy opens the purse more than sympathy does.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:52 PM   #67
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Haha. This is so laughable. The point of charity isn't to say I give more.
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:50 PM   #68
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Haha. This is so laughable. The point of charity isn't to say I give more.
But it proves the point that advocating less taxes does not make you a selfish person. Politics aside, I agree with you, though.
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