Official Rangers off season thread

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Barnett is a good basketball announcer. He is absolutely horrendous as a radio baseball announcer. Just awful. You never have any idea what's going on when he's announcing, and when he DOES try to relay info he's often corrected by Nadel.

Interesting. I'll have to listen in. What you say surprises me, given how good he is at other sports (and baseball is a slower moving game).

I think he had a little stint with the Mavs once, didn't he?

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well thankfully Nadel is awesome, so it does offset.

Man I wish Nadel and Grieve could work together.

We have a winner. I'd love if they'd figure out a way to have a single radio & tv broadcast.. when you know you have a great radio guy, why not use the asset? I'm sure that there is some additional headache involved in terms of going into and coming out of breaks, timing, station identifications, things like that.. but I'd sure appreciate it as a listener.

As it is, I've had a high opinion of Rhads as a Ticket dry dock fill-in.. have only watched a part of a spring training game.. but that home run call sounds brutal.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Interesting. I'll have to listen in. What you say surprises me, given how good he is at other sports (and baseball is a slower moving game).

I think he had a little stint with the Mavs once, didn't he?

He did.

The baseball thing is weird. For one, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't really know that much about baseball. He tends to give very generic views on things, and Nadel tend to step in and correct him on things.

He also has real trouble with the cadence of the game. When things are moving slow, he fills in with a lot of extra info and discussion, and then he lets that filler step on the actual game. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Oakland beats Anaheim 3-1, ball outside, Toronto beats blah blah blah blah blah...just outside 2-2". Like he gets so caught up in the non-game-related filler that he forgets that we can't see when a pitcher goes into his windup, etc. and just completely stops describing the action.

Drives me completely insane, and it just makes it worse when you hear the greatness of Nadel for over half of the game and then have to be stuck with him.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

He did.

The baseball thing is weird. For one, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't really know that much about baseball. He tends to give very generic views on things, and Nadel tend to step in and correct him on things.

He also has real trouble with the cadence of the game. When things are moving slow, he fills in with a lot of extra info and discussion, and then he lets that filler step on the actual game. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Oakland beats Anaheim 3-1, ball outside, Toronto beats blah blah blah blah blah...just outside 2-2". Like he gets so caught up in the non-game-related filler that he forgets that we can't see when a pitcher goes into his windup, etc. and just completely stops describing the action.

Drives me completely insane, and it just makes it worse when you hear the greatness of Nadel for over half of the game and then have to be stuck with him.

Nadel is absolute greatness. Talk about painting a picture...he will tell you at the start of the game about the five different shades of color in the sunset. And of course, you always know how the colors of tackle twill are arranged on the uniforms.

I hear you on the cadence thing. Sometimes, on radio, you just need silence.

That said, I can't remember Eric working with anyone who I thought was on his par when it comes to play-by-play. (If the guy were, he would probably have a gig of his own.) I guess you are just hoping for some chemistry between the two. It seems like Barnett could handle that. It was certainly the best thing working for Lewin and Grieve.

Are you old enough to remember Holtz and Nadel? That was a great pairing. Ortegel and Followil reminded me of that in a way.

[jthig32]

Yep, I remember a bit of Holtz and Nadel. Greatness.

I liked Cotroneo paired with Nadel. I didn't like Rojas much when he was here, but after hearing Barnett I'd love to have him back.

I've actually flipped to music during games last season simply because I couldn't take Barnett.

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

That said, I can't remember Eric working with anyone who I thought was on his par when it comes to play-by-play.

I was going to lose my mind before you eventually did mention Holtz. In the late '80s/early '90s before they moved to KRLD, and I could actually listen in Hamilton, Holtz was doing play-by-play at the beginning and end and Nadel only got the middle three. They may not have always done the 3-3-3 arrangement, but I can vouch it was that way at least from '91-'93 when I listened to every home game because we didn't get HSE. So to me, Holtz was a play-by-play guy moreso than an analyst.. and he was a god among men.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

I was going to lose my mind before you eventually did mention Holtz. In the late '80s/early '90s before they moved to KRLD, and I could actually listen in Hamilton, Holtz was doing play-by-play at the beginning and end and Nadel only got the middle three. They may not have always done the 3-3-3 arrangement, but I can vouch it was that way at least from '91-'93 when I listened to every home game because we didn't get HSE. So to me, Holtz was a play-by-play guy moreso than an analyst.. and he was a god among men.

Yeah, it was WBAP in those days, right? 820 on your radio dial. Holtz was always a play-by-play guy. I may be mistaken, but I think Holtz used to do the play-by-play all nine innings, with Nadel as color only. I remember thinking it was weird when Holtz did color. But maybe that was just me getting used to it...not sure when Nadel got started...I was listening since about '86.

I had thought earlier that thiggy was talking about Barnett as being a new voice on the scene. I now realize that I was listening to him for at least last year. He's such a familiar voice to me, that it doesn't register. But now that I think back to last year, I'm not sure I can share thiggy's sentiment. Barnett does a good job of the capturing the moment, when it is big.

Speaking of, I think the greatest moment in all of Rangers broadcasting was Nadel saying "He's going after the legend!"

[Male30Dan]

Sigh... It is official.

Feliz to close.

[muzak]

It's where he needs to be for now. They need to find a suitable closer first, then reassess the situation. It's not as simple as plugging in someone else from our pen, it shifts everything around. Just think about all those close games where you can feel comfortable knowing you have Feliz coming in to close the game out. I remember all those holding-my-breath moments of (late) Franky and CJ. With Feliz, I never felt anxious.

[jthig32]

So...hmm. I predicted this would happen, and I was of the opinion that Feliz would not be ready to start this year.

But the more I hear Nolan talk, the more annoyed I get. He flat out said that Feliz would be starting if the weren't bullpen weren't such a problem. And that's just not ok. Starters are way, way, WAY more important than bullpen pitchers, and if Feliz is ready to contribute as a starter, he's going to make your team better there.

And it's not like we have fantastic depth in the rotation either, not until (unless?) Webb is healthy. Hunter got hurt today and is now questionable for the start of the season, meaning you're looking at Kirkman or Dave Bush.

I dunno, I'm not real up in arms on this like the entire Sabre community is, but I do think it's dumb if the primary reason was bullpen instability based on Spring Training results.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by muzak

It's where he needs to be for now. They need to find a suitable closer first, then reassess the situation. It's not as simple as plugging in someone else from our pen, it shifts everything around. Just think about all those close games where you can feel comfortable knowing you have Feliz coming in to close the game out. I remember all those holding-my-breath moments of (late) Franky and CJ. With Feliz, I never felt anxious.

The Rangers lost a ton of games in the 8th and 9th innings last year. It's not like Feliz was Rivera out there. Going into last season we had Frank Francisco as our closer, who was hardly established as a sure thing in the closer spot.

And the reality is that the closer spot is over rated. The majority of the games they enter are in the 9th with no one on base and a multiple-run lead. That is not a high leverage situation. There is more emotional attachment to losing games in the 9th, so that does add to the importance, but it's still a highly overrated position.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by muzak

It's where he needs to be for now. They need to find a suitable closer first, then reassess the situation. It's not as simple as plugging in someone else from our pen, it shifts everything around. Just think about all those close games where you can feel comfortable knowing you have Feliz coming in to close the game out. I remember all those holding-my-breath moments of (late) Franky and CJ. With Feliz, I never felt anxious.

Wrong, but it doesn't matter now anyway. It is what it is.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

So...hmm. I predicted this would happen, and I was of the opinion that Feliz would not be ready to start this year.

But the more I hear Nolan talk, the more annoyed I get. He flat out said that Feliz would be starting if the weren't bullpen weren't such a problem. And that's just not ok. Starters are way, way, WAY more important than bullpen pitchers, and if Feliz is ready to contribute as a starter, he's going to make your team better there.

And it's not like we have fantastic depth in the rotation either, not until (unless?) Webb is healthy. Hunter got hurt today and is now questionable for the start of the season, meaning you're looking at Kirkman or Dave Bush.

I dunno, I'm not real up in arms on this like the entire Sabre community is, but I do think it's dumb if the primary reason was bullpen instability based on Spring Training results.

You definitely were wrong about him not being ready, but I am with you on being frustrated with the reason they chose to keep him in the pen. It just sucks. But as I just told muzak - it is what it is. Move on and let's figure out a way to have a successful season without a helluva stud holding down one of the 5 rotation spots.

Here is to Harrison, Hunter (if healthy), and Holland growing up real fast.

[chumdawg]

Is there somewhere one can go to look at the math/argument between the value of the two roles?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Is there somewhere one can go to look at the math/argument between the value of the two roles?

I don't have anything to link to off the top of my head, but 150-200 innings vs 70 innings if fairly straight forward and a pretty strong starting point.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't have anything to link to off the top of my head, but 150-200 innings vs 70 innings if fairly straight forward and a pretty strong starting point.

I would guess that those innings aren't equally valued, though.

[muzak]

Well, I think you're underrating the position. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I would guess that those innings aren't equally valued, though.

Look, I get the impact the position can have and I understand how demoralizing it can be to lose a 1 run game that you have led throughout because you can't shut the door in the 9th inning. While this certainly wasn't a 1-run game, I STILL remember that Baltimore game from last year (and this is where you ask "which one?").

That said, 200 innings from a guy that can be as dominant as I feel Feliz can be is definitely WAY more important than a position that often times (as Thiggy pointed out) comes in with a 2-3 run lead and has to literally suck a great deal to blow the save.

Sure, there are 1-run saves and sometimes you even use your closer in tie games when you bat last trying to ensure the other team fails to score.

That said, if I were in the shoes of the decision makers I would have made a trade for a closer or stuck Ogando in there and put Feliz in the rotation. I just would have. Some of the struggles from Lowe/ODay/Rhodes won't end up carrying over once the season starts as a couple of these guys regularly suck in ST and do very well when it counts.

I don't know - to me, you put a guy in the rotation if he has ace potential, wants the ball every 5 days, and has shown he can be successful in the major leagues. You do that every single time. Every. Single. Time.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I would guess that those innings aren't equally valued, though.

They're not, but there would have to be a huge difference between the values to make up for that big of a discrepancy in the total number of innings.

Closers aren't even utilized to maximize their value. If they were used as a fireman, being used in the highest leverage situation every game, the argument would at least be better.

[jthig32]

Hmm. I'm feeling much less confident in my bet with Dan based on the news of Treanor being traded.

[Rhylan]

On the Treanor deal, I think this is as simple as a team that has enough questions about it's arms that it can't afford a personal catcher taking up a spot, when Torrealba and Napoli started 148 games at catcher between them last year.

[dalmations202]

5 man bench or 8 man pen? I am curious.

I still think they have a few extras, and need a few more spots to do what they want.

Good problem to have -- too much talent.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

On the Treanor deal, I think this is as simple as a team that has enough questions about it's arms that it can't afford a personal catcher taking up a spot, when Torrealba and Napoli started 148 games at catcher between them last year.

He wasn't going to be a personal catcher. Napoli just wasn't going to catch much, because he's terrible at it.

I don't think this lasts the whole year.

And carrying an 8 man bullpen is dumb.

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Napoli just wasn't going to catch much, because he's terrible at it.

What's your basis for this? I know admittedly little about his catching abilities - all I know is Darren Oliver had good things to say about him as a catcher from his days w/ the Angels. I assume he will at least be adequate, given what the Rangers have had behind the plate in recent years at backup C, unless I see/hear otherwise. I didn't watch any Angels games last year, though.

If it's determined that Napoli is serviceable as a backup catcher, then Treanor has nothing really keeping him on the roster. Treanor wasn't going to give you anything at the plate or anything in terms of a throwing threat.. his primary value besides a smidge of vet leadership (which alone isn't worth a roster spot), was being CJ's favorite. And you get more plate apps for both Napoli and Young if Napoli jumps in as backup instead of Treanor.

I could be wrong, especially if Napoli is untenable as a backup catcher.. but I don't believe anybody said that was why LAA was losing games last year.

[muzak]

Originally Posted by jthig32

because he's terrible at it.

I'm just curious how you know this? Who can watch Angels games when the Rangers play everyday and you work 40 hours a week? Other than guys who make the highlights consistently, it's got to be hard to accurately gauge talent you can't see on a daily basis. Not trying to make an argument for Napoli, or de-validate yours, I'm being completely genuine here. Because, I've only seen him play a handful of games in the last few years and I can't recall one way or the other. That may be a bad sign that nothing was memorable...not sure.

[jthig32]

I disagree that Napoli gets more at bats as backup catcher. He might not get any less, but I don't think he gets more. He's going to lose a lot of at bats that he would have gotten as a DH and late game pinch hitter. He'll make them up while catching, but I think at best he'll break even from the trade.

As for his abilities as a catcher, I obviously haven't seen enough to know for myself. It's about reputation. There's a reason he wasn't the regular catcher for the Angels, despite their other option being one of the worst offensive players in baseball. Dave Cameron even worked back over several years of Angels performance data and saw a relatively clear pattern for better success for both the pitchers and the Angels as a whole when Mathis catching, again despite Mathis being an awful, awful offensive player and Napoli being a pretty darn good one.

I think this is a temporary situation. I don't think Napolie's the permanent backup catcher. Could be wrong, but I think the plan going into the season was the play Napoli very, very little at catcher and the roster construction got in the way of their plans.

[Male30Dan]

Napoli is most certainly the backup catcher as things stand - that should be fairly obvious. Torrealba's career high in games caught in a single year is just over 110 (Colorado's dream season) but it is typically much less than that (no other year did he break 100 games played). Napoli will play games there for sure, and more than he was going to previously (so yes Thiggy - fear the bet).

Now, if what I heard on Galloway yesterday along with what has been hinted at by Durrett and others comes true (eventually Treanor is back with this team once Webb/Hunter is available and we move back to a 7-man bullpen) OR if Cash/ShittyUTCatcher is back up with this club at some point then sure, this is only a short term thing getting us through these initial rough waters.

My opinion? The honest truth staring us all in the face (assuming the cooling-off Davis could keep up his overall pace all year long) is that we would be a better overall team without the Napoli trade, with Davis on the MLB roster, with Francisco closing (yes I know he is still hurt), and Feliz starting.

Given that we are now making our defense much weaker to get Napoli at bats, will have to send one of the best Spring performers this year and a stud defender Davis back to AAA and have moved our best pitching prospect back to closer due to no one else being able to man that position this trade has the potential to ruin our year.

I know Napoli serves a need for us and I know he has good offense to contribute, but looking back on this trade knowing what I know now, I really wish we didn't make it. Of course if Frankie can't pull his body together I will have no leg to stand on there other than what Napoli blocks internally by him being here.

Sorry - I am cranky given the offseason/spring performances.

[jthig32]

I wasn't saying he wasn't the backup catcher. I was saying that as the backup catcher, I'm not sure that he's going to get more at bats than he would have as the third catcher/DH.

As for the Rangers being better off without the Napoli trade, I disagree. I don't see Frankie making the team feel more warm and fuzzy about the bullpen, given his physical condition. So I don't think he makes a difference in regards to Feliz' position.

I also would prefer Napoli on the roster over Davis, because Davis is a lefty and isn't a natural platoon fit with Moreland.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I wasn't saying he wasn't the backup catcher. I was saying that as the backup catcher, I'm not sure that he's going to get more at bats than he would have as the third catcher/DH.

As for the Rangers being better off without the Napoli trade, I disagree. I don't see Frankie making the team feel more warm and fuzzy about the bullpen, given his physical condition. So I don't think he makes a difference in regards to Feliz' position.

I also would prefer Napoli on the roster over Davis, because Davis is a lefty and isn't a natural platoon fit with Moreland.

Yeah, those first two sentences are a bit confusing if taken by themselves, but I understand what you were trying to say now having read back over it all.

And yeah, sure, if Frankie is injured I mentioned how I don't have much to stand on with that opinion but it certainly wasn't known when he was traded that he was going to be injured at this point in the year and there is a good chance he comes back soon to be rather productive for Toronto.

Bottom line, the trade prevented us from putting Feliz in the rotation. Not making the trade (with the knowledge that Frankie would soon be coming back from injury) would likely have had him starting with Ogando filling in the gap as closer until Frankie could return. Just my opinion - impossible to know for sure - but it is how I honestly feel given what Nolan said the reason for him going to the bullpen was.

Regarding Napoli being a better fit over Davis due to how he could platoon with Moreland - well, I think Davis should be the starting 1st baseman right now given his spring and how much better he is defensively over Moreland even with the trade (with Moreland still playing an important role on our MLB club). Napoli platooning with Davis instead of with Moreland is better to me. Without the trade I would still have Davis at 1B platooning with Young.

Moreland could then become that swing OF that Murphy is now in this scenario with Hamilton playing CF and Murphy playing LF (with Borbon in AAA). Not going to happen, I know, but that is what I would do. Just as Murphy was going to get a solid 350-400 at bats, you could likewise get Moreland a great deal of them with him providing rest to all OFs. Murphy could get by in CF on days you needed to rest Josh or play him at DH, despite his average to below average defense there (if Vlad could play several games in LF/RF Murphy can play several in CF).

I know the limitations that Murphy has in CF would likely hurt you a bit more than the positives that Davis would give you defensively at 1B, but the truth of the matter is that I can at some point envision Davis being a .280/35/100 guy with an upside to be even better. He can crush AAA pitching and is learning MLB pitching and I see him being much like Cruz - another solid opportunity away from breaking out.

Again, nothing I am suggesting is going to happen because the team is going to play Borbon, Feliz is going to close, Hamilton isn't going to be trusted in CF, Moreland is going to play 1st and Davis is going to AAA - but still. It is what I would do with this roster.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Yeah, those first two sentences are a bit confusing if taken by themselves, but I understand what you were trying to say now having read back over it all.

And yeah, sure, if Frankie is injured I mentioned how I don't have much to stand on with that opinion but it certainly wasn't known when he was traded that he was going to be injured at this point in the year and there is a good chance he comes back soon to be rather productive for Toronto.

Bottom line, the trade prevented us from putting Feliz in the rotation. Not making the trade (with the knowledge that Frankie would soon be coming back from injury) would likely have had him starting with Ogando filling in the gap as closer until Frankie could return. Just my opinion - impossible to know for sure - but it is how I honestly feel given what Nolan said the reason for him going to the bullpen was.

Regarding Napoli being a better fit over Davis due to how he could platoon with Moreland - well, I think Davis should be the starting 1st baseman right now given his spring and how much better he is defensively over Moreland even with the trade (with Moreland still playing an important role on our MLB club). Napoli platooning with Davis instead of with Moreland is better to me. Without the trade I would still have Davis at 1B platooning with Young.

Moreland could then become that swing OF that Murphy is now in this scenario with Hamilton playing CF and Murphy playing LF (with Borbon in AAA). Not going to happen, I know, but that is what I would do. Just as Murphy was going to get a solid 350-400 at bats, you could likewise get Moreland a great deal of them with him providing rest to all OFs. Murphy could get by in CF on days you needed to rest Josh or play him at DH, despite his average to below average defense there (if Vlad could play several games in LF/RF Murphy can play several in CF).

I know the limitations that Murphy has in CF would likely hurt you a bit more than the positives that Davis would give you defensively at 1B, but the truth of the matter is that I can at some point envision Davis being a .280/35/100 guy with an upside to be even better. He can crush AAA pitching and is learning MLB pitching and I see him being much like Cruz - another solid opportunity away from breaking out.

Again, nothing I am suggesting is going to happen because the team is going to play Borbon, Feliz is going to close, Hamilton isn't going to be trusted in CF, Moreland is going to play 1st and Davis is going to AAA - but still. It is what I would do with this roster.

I don't know whether great minds think alike or if I am just another idiot fan -- but you have written this better than I could have.

[Kirobaito]

Taking Friday off from work.

Going to the Deep Ellum Arts Festival that night, so the plan is to take the DART into downtown D early afternoon, go to the best sports bar imaginable (any suggestions? I'm new to the Dallas side of the Metroplex), watch the game, and then walk over to the festival after that.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Kirobaito

Taking Friday off from work.

Going to the Deep Ellum Arts Festival that night, so the plan is to take the DART into downtown D early afternoon, go to the best sports bar imaginable (any suggestions? I'm new to the Dallas side of the Metroplex), watch the game, and then walk over to the festival after that.

Some options...

[Kirobaito]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Some options...

Ten Sports Bar it is. Six blocks from Deep Ellum, sounds perfect.