Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[CadBane]

All the talk about Dirk and his place in history made me think, how would I rank the 25 greatest? This is a place for you to put your personal list of Top 25 all-time. Obviously everyone's is going to be quite different. For me, I valued the following more heavily:

- Importance of playoff success. Not just rings, but great playoff numbers.

- Offensive slightly over defensive

- Individual dominance

- Advanced stats

- Long prime over short prime

- Longevity

- I hold the 40s and 50s guys in less regard.

Without further ado:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. West
11. Kobe
12. Oscar
13. Moses Malone
14. Dirk
15. Julius Erving
16. David Robinson
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Rick Barry
21. Patrick Ewing
22. Bob Petit
23. Isiah Thomas
24. John Stockton
25. Scottie Pippen

[LonghornDub]

That's a strong list. I'm sure I'd have a few different guys if I really thought about it, but I find nothing wrong who you've included.

I do think I'd move Kobe up a few spots and maybe put Duncan ahead of Hakeem. But at this point, the gaps are so small and subjective, it could go any way.

[mavs777]

Hakeem over Duncan? Not sure i agree with that

[dirt_dobber]

great list. Good work CadBane

[Underdog]

Dirk is definitely top-25, probably more like top-20 in my mind...

Hard for me to make a "best all-time" list since I didn't watch basketball before 1982, and even then, I was just a kid and didn't really grasp the game until about 1989. I can't really judge a player based on numbers alone.

As far as players I love to watch? Dirk is probably top-5 for me, alongside Jordan, Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem...

[sefant77]

I hate to rank player with their prime in 65-75 and others with their prime in 2000-2010....makes no sense

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by sefant77

I hate to rank player with their prime in 65-75 and others with their prime in 2000-2010....makes no sense

Then don't do it.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Hakeem over Duncan? Not sure i agree with that

Lolz...what a silly post. Not that you disagree, but that you post that. Then make your own list! That's the point of the thread. It wasn't to assert my list as the definitive list, I just wanted everyone to give their take on the Top 25. Of course everyone's list is going to be different.

In Hakeem's 94' Championships, he put up:

94' Championship: 29/11/4/4 blocks/2 Steals 28 PER

95' Championship: 33/10/5/3 blocks/1 Steal 27 PER

Those are just crazy lines. Not to mention, the 94' team was very reliant on him. Much like Dirk, that team had ZERO all-stars and ZERO all-defensive players.

He's got a career 26 Playoff PER vs. TD's 25

Hakeem put up 22/11//3/3/2 for his career vs. TD's 21/11/3/2/1

Duncan does have the slightly higher career PER, but that will go down over the next few years (remember, Hakeem wasted away in Toronto at Age 39!)

It's very very close, and the argument for Duncan is obviously fair. But I take Hakeem, due to his edge as a post scorer and a slightly better defender.

[mavs777]

I know about that 1994 team

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Without further ado:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. West
11. Kobe
12. Oscar
13. Moses Malone
14. Dirk
15. Julius Erving
16. David Robinson
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Rick Barry
21. Patrick Ewing
22. Bob Petit
23. Isiah Thomas
24. John Stockton
25. Scottie Pippen

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Kobe
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. West
11. David Robinson
12. Hakeem
13. Dirk
14. Malone
15. Moses

[CadBane]

Not bad. I think Russell is a bit overrated...but he's still got to be ahead of Kobe IMO. D-Rob over Hakeem I think hilarious. D-Rob was very sub-par in the playoffs compared to the regular season. He doesn't get two rings without Duncan.

[LonghornDub]

I'll give this some more thought and try to post my own list. I gotta agree with Cad though that it's really damn hard to even care about the 50's guys. I have a hard time comparing George Mikan to modern players, or even 1970's players.

[FINtastic]

I have a hard time believing that David Robinson should get the nod over Hakeem when Hakeem completely destroyed Robinson in their head-to-head matchup during the WCFs in Robinson's MVP year.

[Thespiralgoeson]

That is a pretty good list. I'd probably put Kevin McHale ahead of some of the guys on that list, but other than that it's very sound.

[chumdawg]

It's really tough to create an "all-time" list unless you are either A) 60+ years or age, or B) a stats guru and basing it on metrics.

That said, I think there is a case for Wade over a few of those players, and I would even go so far as to allow Lebron a sniff. Reggie Miller should get his name in contention, too.

I have Isiah Thomas out for sure. Probably Patrick Ewing, and maybe Charles Barkley as well.

[chumdawg]

Oh, and how could I forget? If Stockton is on the list, then Kidd deserves a look as well.

[Dirkadirkastan]

1. Shaq
2. Michael
3. Dirk
4. whatever

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I have a hard time believing that David Robinson should get the nod over Hakeem when Hakeem completely destroyed Robinson in their head-to-head matchup during the WCFs in Robinson's MVP year.

Thisssss. I love you Fin (I'm drunk, but I love your posts more than anyone on DM.com)

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I have a hard time believing that David Robinson should get the nod over Hakeem when Hakeem completely destroyed Robinson in their head-to-head matchup during the WCFs in Robinson's MVP year.

The bigger issue may be Hakeem getting the nod over Duncan. Hakeem was certainly a threat in his day. I remember it well, in his early going. But he probably wasn't any bigger threat than Dwight Howard is today. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Our '88 team beat those Rockets pretty handily in the first round. Just like Howard keeps losing in his early going.

There are many folks who believe that the Rockets don't get that second ring if they don't go and add Clyde Drexler. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not trying to knock Hakeem. But I'm just saying that putting him in the top ten of all time is probably overdoing it. In other words, I wouldn't have him there if/when I make my own list. Good player, good foundation of two championship teams, but probably not any different than Dwight Howard is today.

[CadBane]

Lmao. I'll get to your post in a bit, Chum. But calling Hakeem no more a threat than D12 is one of the single most asinine things I've ever heard.

[grndmstr_c]

DR vs. Hakeem really comes down to two things in my mind. Longevity (Hakeem was a top player for a few years longer), and that WCF matchup that saw Hakeem lay one of the biggest star-vs-star beatdowns on Robinson in NBA history. I couldn't rank DR higher than Hakeem for those two reasons, even if David did have some pretty impressive highs of his own.

As for Howard, he may very well end up in the conversation with those guys when all is said and done. But one fact that can't be overlooked is this: Hakeem was the best center in an era of great centers. Dwight is, right now, the best center in an era of great forwards.

[LonghornDub]

Here's mine. Criteria were: 1) my general knowledge of these guys based on studying NBA history over the years, 2) career stats with an emphasis on playoffs, 3) championships, 4) individual accolades, 5) (completely subjective) extent to which the player helped define the era in which he played:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Russell
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Dr. J
13. Moses Malone
14. Jerry West
15. Dirk
16. Karl Malone
17. Charles Barkley
18. Bob Cousy
19. David Robinson
20. Elgin Baylor
21. Bob Pettit
22. Rick Barry
23. Patrick Ewing
24. Stockton
25. T--Zeke & J-Kidd

I bolded a couple guys who I think are probably the most notable omissions on some of the lists above.

Pippen probably the first man out. It's hard for me to leave him out with six championships and great career numbers, plus fantastic defense, but I have to wonder how many championships Zeke, Kidd, or Stockton would have had if they got to play with MJ and Phil.

[CadBane]

Good list, friendo. I debated putting Baylor in. I don't think Cousy belongs at all though. He was flash over substance.

[LonghornDub]

He sorta set the early standard for the pass-first point guard, won an MVP, 13x All-Star, and six championships...so I gotta put him in there.

Side note, I went and looked at these guys efficiencies, and Baylor's was just sick. You could maybe argue he should be even higher than he is.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

He sorta set the early standard for the pass-first point guard, won an MVP, 13x All-Star, and six championships...so I gotta put him in there.

Side note, I went and looked at these guys efficiencies, and Baylor's was just sick. You could maybe argue he should be even higher than he is.

Baylor was a scoring machine, for sure. But his career FG% is only 43%. I know that's obviously skewed, because guys shot lower percentages in that era, but still. The main reason I keep Baylor out of the Top 25 is that he never won an MVP, or a ring. To have neither, it's tough to make that cut. The only guy on either of our Top 25s with neither is Stockton. Also, while Baylor was an absolute beast in his early playoff years, he was very mediocre in his 30s with L.A.

As for Cousy, he shot 38% for his career (again, percentages are lower, but still). He led the league in assists 8 years, but that's no more impressive than Stockton. Also, his numbers actually go down in the playoffs. The 6 rings are impressive, but somewhat less s because there were only EIGHT teams! That's the big thing that irks me about rings from that period. You got a 1/8 shot, lol.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by CadBane

As for Cousy, he shot 38% for his career (again, percentages are lower, but still). He led the league in assists 8 years, but that's no more impressive than Stockton. Also, his numbers actually go down in the playoffs. The 6 rings are impressive, but somewhat less s because there were only EIGHT teams! That's the big thing that irks me about rings from that period. You got a 1/8 shot, lol.

Definitely true about the rings. He was never a great scorer either. But like I said, one of my criteria was how the player helped define his era, and I think Cousy definitely did, and he set the early standard for that type of PG (hell, the collegiate PG award is named after him).

If I was just picking for a pick-up game, I'd definitely take Stockton every time. He was more talented.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The bigger issue may be Hakeem getting the nod over Duncan. Hakeem was certainly a threat in his day. I remember it well, in his early going. But he probably wasn't any bigger threat than Dwight Howard is today. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Our '88 team beat those Rockets pretty handily in the first round. Just like Howard keeps losing in his early going.

There are many folks who believe that the Rockets don't get that second ring if they don't go and add Clyde Drexler. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not trying to knock Hakeem. But I'm just saying that putting him in the top ten of all time is probably overdoing it. In other words, I wouldn't have him there if/when I make my own list. Good player, good foundation of two championship teams, but probably not any different than Dwight Howard is today.

Okay, now for this. Really, Chum?

Hakeem arguably had the best post moves ever, and you're saying he wasn't more of a threat than D12, who has virtually no post moves? Seriously? We're talking about an offensive machine who absolutely sodomized Shaq and Robinson!

1. Hakeem put up 26, 27, 28, 27 PPG for 4 straight years in his prime. D12's career high is 23.

2. Playoff Hakeem averaged 26 PPG. D12 20 PPG. Hakeem averaged 28 and 33 PPG in their championship seasons.

3. Hakeem was a superior passer. Averaged over 3 assists 6 straight years in his prime (including 3.6, 3.6, 3.5). D12's career high is 1.9!

4. Hakeem did all this against guys like McHale, Parrish, Walton, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing. D12 is doing it against Noah, Horford, Bynum. Gimme a break.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Definitely true about the rings. He was never a great scorer either. But like I said, one of my criteria was how the player helped define his era, and I think Cousy definitely did, and he set the early standard for that type of PG (hell, the collegiate PG award is named after him).

If I was just picking for a pick-up game, I'd definitely take Stockton every time. He was more talented.

Oh yeah, he definitely changed the game, there's no question about that. His passing (which has become hyperbolized, IMO) was seen as revolutionary.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The bigger issue may be Hakeem getting the nod over Duncan. Hakeem was certainly a threat in his day. I remember it well, in his early going. But he probably wasn't any bigger threat than Dwight Howard is today. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Our '88 team beat those Rockets pretty handily in the first round. Just like Howard keeps losing in his early going.

There are many folks who believe that the Rockets don't get that second ring if they don't go and add Clyde Drexler. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not trying to knock Hakeem. But I'm just saying that putting him in the top ten of all time is probably overdoing it. In other words, I wouldn't have him there if/when I make my own list. Good player, good foundation of two championship teams, but probably not any different than Dwight Howard is today.

I think the Hakeem vs. Duncan makes for a great sports debate, but I'm going to maybe go on the slightly controversial side, side with Cadbane, and take Hakeem over Duncan. Some will automatically think I've lost the argument at this point because Duncan has twice the number of rings. But when you just go by numbers of rings, you miss out on all the variables in play that went into those championship runs. So here's my reasoning:

I think Duncan has been an anchor for a great San Antonio defense during the last decade so you can't say that he's anything but a really, really great defensive player. But I'm not sure if you'd be able to count on two hands the number of players that were better defensively than Hakeem. Maybe not even on one hand. The Rockets constantly finished in the top five of points allowed per 100 possession, which was obviously in no small part due to Hakeem. Hakeem snagged two defensive player of the year awards. He's the all-time leader in blocked shots (and the second place finisher isn't even close. He also piled up a freakish amount of steals for a center - over 2,000 all time - and he was averaging roughly 2 a game in his prime. I think Bill Simmons said in his book that since they started recording blocks and steals, no player has combined total of career blocks and steals that comes within 70% of Olajuwon's numbers.

On the offensive end, I think Duncan might get slightly overrated as great as he is. I give Olajuwon the edge here because he seems to best him in both points per game and true shooting percentage (Duncan's inconsistent free throw shooting some years hurts him here I think). Also as said earlier, Olajuwon had possibly the greatest arsenal of post moves ever. As for the Dwight Howard comparison, there's a reason why Howard spent the last offseason trying to soak up tips from the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArHU1ewSog). The Dream Shake is still one of the all-time classic signature moves (and anyone who has ever tried to defend it in one-on-one hoops will know that a player who has mastered this is a nightmare to guard). That Hakeem was able to dominate during what I think was the greatest era for centers ever is another major point in his favor.

As for the '88 loss to the Mavericks, you are overlooking that the Mavs didn't win because of Hakeem, they won in spite of him. The dude had an absolute monster series with around 37 points, 17 rebounds, and 3 blocked shots a game (ballpark estimates, I'd have to go back and look them up to be sure). I think he also also had a PER of 39 for the entire series. Quite frankly, that's insane. You wonder how he lost that series with those numbers, and then you look at the Rockets' roster. From top to bottom it was pretty much littered with garbage that pretty much gave him zero support during that series.

That's a theme that runs rampant throughout his career. Hakeem really played with some bad rosters, especially after Sampson fell off and then was shipped away. After they made their unexpected run to the Finals in the 1986, Hakeem didn't play with a teammate in the regular rotation with a PER greater than 16.5 until 1990-91, which is really pretty pitiful. Even after that it's not like he was surrounded by a great talent until the arrival of Clyde the Glide in the middle of the 1994-95 season.

That Hakeem was able to drag the previous year's team to that 1994 championship is an absolute testament to his greatness because his second best player on that title run was either Robert Horry or Otis Thorpe. There's no shame in saying that he needed a Drexler in 1995 to get that second ring - most teams do need a legit Robin even if Hakeem was able to do without one the year before. So that's hardly a knock on him - Duncan probably doesn't his first ring if he doesn't have Robinson by his side. He probably doesn't get rings three or four either without Ginobili.

Duncan's 2003 run probably does get underrated by he basketball world though. Like Olajuwon in 1994, he dragged a pretty mediocre roster to a Larry O'Brien trophy that year. His numbers were insane that year, and I think people forget how green Parker and Ginobili were at the time. There's a reason that Popovich was forced to dust the mothballs off Kerr in Game 6, and that's because the Spurs just weren't getting any offense when the Mavs decided base their defense on absolutely collapsing in on Duncan. So Duncan deserves absolute props for what he did in 2003.

All in all, I think it's a really close call, but I give the edge Hakeem because I think he's slightly better on both ends of the court. Again - really, really close, but I'm personally giving the nod to Hakeem.

[FINtastic]

And yes, that last post was entirely too long. But it's the offseason - what else are you going to do?

[OSUmavsfan]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

And yes, that last post was entirely too long. But it's the offseason - what else are you going to do?

Great post and you make a great case. Also, those that rank Duncan ahead of Hakeem just because of championships need to look at the competition they played against. The league was pretty stacked during Olajuwon's prime, while I think the competition was fairly weak in '99, '05, and '07 when Duncan won. I think there were a lot of good teams in 2003 when the Spurs won. I was too young to watch and remember much of Hakeem's career, so I can't fairly compare the two, but it's just something to think about.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I think the Hakeem vs. Duncan makes for a great sports debate, but I'm going to maybe go on the slightly controversial side, side with Cadbane, and take Hakeem over Duncan. Some will automatically think I've lost the argument at this point because Duncan has twice the number of rings. But when you just go by numbers of rings, you miss out on all the variables in play that went into those championship runs. So here's my reasoning:

I think Duncan has been an anchor for a great San Antonio defense during the last decade so you can't say that he's anything but a really, really great defensive player. But I'm not sure if you'd be able to count on two hands the number of players that were better defensively than Hakeem. Maybe not even on one hand. The Rockets constantly finished in the top five of points allowed per 100 possession, which was obviously in no small part due to Hakeem. Hakeem snagged two defensive player of the year awards. He's the all-time leader in blocked shots (and the second place finisher isn't even close. He also piled up a freakish amount of steals for a center - over 2,000 all time - and he was averaging roughly 2 a game in his prime. I think Bill Simmons said in his book that since they started recording blocks and steals, no player has combined total of career blocks and steals that comes within 70% of Olajuwon's numbers.

On the offensive end, I think Duncan might get slightly overrated as great as he is. I give Olajuwon the edge here because he seems to best him in both points per game and true shooting percentage (Duncan's inconsistent free throw shooting some years hurts him here I think). Also as said earlier, Olajuwon had possibly the greatest arsenal of post moves ever. As for the Dwight Howard comparison, there's a reason why Howard spent the last offseason trying to soak up tips from the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArHU1ewSog). The Dream Shake is still one of the all-time classic signature moves (and anyone who has ever tried to defend it in one-on-one hoops will know that a player who has mastered this is a nightmare to guard). That Hakeem was able to dominate during what I think was the greatest era for centers ever is another major point in his favor.

As for the '88 loss to the Mavericks, you are overlooking that the Mavs didn't win because of Hakeem, they won in spite of him. The dude had an absolute monster series with around 37 points, 17 rebounds, and 3 blocked shots a game (ballpark estimates, I'd have to go back and look them up to be sure). I think he also also had a PER of 39 for the entire series. Quite frankly, that's insane. You wonder how he lost that series with those numbers, and then you look at the Rockets' roster. From top to bottom it was pretty much littered with garbage that pretty much gave him zero support during that series.

That's a theme that runs rampant throughout his career. Hakeem really played with some bad rosters, especially after Sampson fell off and then was shipped away. After they made their unexpected run to the Finals in the 1986, Hakeem didn't play with a teammate in the regular rotation with a PER greater than 16.5 until 1990-91, which is really pretty pitiful. Even after that it's not like he was surrounded by a great talent until the arrival of Clyde the Glide in the middle of the 1994-95 season.

That Hakeem was able to drag the previous year's team to that 1994 championship is an absolute testament to his greatness because his second best player on that title run was either Robert Horry or Otis Thorpe. There's no shame in saying that he needed a Drexler in 1995 to get that second ring - most teams do need a legit Robin even if Hakeem was able to do without one the year before. So that's hardly a knock on him - Duncan probably doesn't his first ring if he doesn't have Robinson by his side. He probably doesn't get rings three or four either without Ginobili.

Duncan's 2003 run probably does get underrated by he basketball world though. Like Olajuwon in 1994, he dragged a pretty mediocre roster to a Larry O'Brien trophy that year. His numbers were insane that year, and I think people forget how green Parker and Ginobili were at the time. There's a reason that Popovich was forced to dust the mothballs off Kerr in Game 6, and that's because the Spurs just weren't getting any offense when the Mavs decided base their defense on absolutely collapsing in on Duncan. So Duncan deserves absolute props for what he did in 2003.

All in all, I think it's a really close call, but I give the edge Hakeem because I think he's slightly better on both ends of the court. Again - really, really close, but I'm personally giving the nod to Hakeem.

Agreed on all counts. Defensively they're probably pretty close, but offensively Hakeem was clearly better. And that's certainly no knock on Duncan either, because we all know how good he's been offensively over his career. It's just that much a greater testament to Hakeem who for my money was the one of the two most skilled low-post scorers in the history of the game (the other being McHale.) Hakeem, like many other players of that generation, had the unfortunate luck of being sandwiched between the dynasties of the 80's and the 90's. If Tim Duncan is in his prime from the mid-80's to the mid-90's, I doubt he wins 4 championships. And likewise, if Hakeem was in his prime in the post-Jordan era, he probably wins more than 2 rings.

On a completely different note though, I must say I've always thought that 2003 Spurs team has been underrated by pretty much everyone when touting Duncan's greatness. That's not to say that I think Duncan is overrated at all, but I just don't think that supporting cast got enough credit. Honestly, as a Mavs fan I would take that supporting cast over either of the teams that Dirk had around him in 06 or 07 (although admittedly that probably says more about those Mavs teams than it does about the 03 Spurs.) True, Parker and Ginobili were green as hell, but I would still take that backcourt over anything that Dirk had after Nash left for Phoenix. And I would probably also take a 37 year-old D-Rob over Dampier. Lets also not forget Bowen, who was not only arguably the best perimeter defender of the entire decade, he also consistently led the league in 3pt%. I would've KILLED to have a guy like Bowen on the Mavs from '05 to 08. Also, without looking up any of the numbers (too lazy) I seem to remember Stephen Jackson coming up big in the playoffs that year.

Again, not trying to detract anything from Duncan's greatness at all. I just always thought it was a bit odd that people always trashed his supporting cast.

[sike]

I'm surprised how high DRob is on many of these lists and completely agree with The Dream being higher on the list than The Admiral and even Duncan. (Its not even close in my mind between Dream/Duncan and Robinson). The Dream was one of the most special athletes I have ever seen. The argument between he and Duncan could be considerable, but simply put, give me Hakeem.

I love reading lists like this...but literally HATE the idea of taking the time to make my own. So thanks to you guys.

Oh, and Pippen doesn't sniff my top 30. Its amazing what Jordan did for that guy's rep.

I agree with the pro Elgin Baylor comments...he MUST make the list. And while they were important to the foundation of the game, Cousy and Mikan just can't make my list.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by sike

Oh, and Pippen doesn't sniff my top 30. Its amazing what Jordan did for that guy's rep.

I'm not quite sure I'd have him in my top 30 either, but I don't think it's at all outrageous or far-fetched for someone else to have him in their top 25. IMO he was bar none the greatest perimeter defender in the history of the game. That alone puts him in the top my 40-50, and offensively he was definitely no slouch either, consistently averaging around 20 per for most of his career. He was also one of the top passers and rebounders for his postion of any era. People forget that during the 93 season when Jordan was playing baseball, Pippen carried that team to 55 wins and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Dude was a legitimate franchise player in his own right.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I'm not quite sure I'd have him in my top 30 either, but I don't think it's at all outrageous or far-fetched for someone else to have him in their top 25. IMO he was bar none the greatest perimeter defender in the history of the game. That alone puts him in the top my 40-50, and offensively he was definitely no slouch either, consistently averaging around 20 per for most of his career. He was also one of the top passers and rebounders for his postion of any era. People forget that during the 93 season when Jordan was playing baseball, Pippen carried that to 55 wins and finished 3rd in MVP voting. Dude was a legitimate franchise player in his own right.

I agree with all those things. But that doesn't make me like you!

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

On the offensive end, I think Duncan might get slightly overrated as great as he is. I give Olajuwon the edge here because he seems to best him in both points per game and true shooting percentage (Duncan's inconsistent free throw shooting some years hurts him here I think). Also as said earlier, Olajuwon had possibly the greatest arsenal of post moves ever. As for the Dwight Howard comparison, there's a reason why Howard spent the last offseason trying to soak up tips from the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArHU1ewSog). The Dream Shake is still one of the all-time classic signature moves (and anyone who has ever tried to defend it in one-on-one hoops will know that a player who has mastered this is a nightmare to guard). That Hakeem was able to dominate during what I think was the greatest era for centers ever is another major point in his favor.

What a great link. The two things that really jump out at me:

(1) Look at how well Hakeem is moving...at nearly 50 years old! No braces, not a ton of tape. He's obviously not of the Greg Oden / Patrick Ewing school of big men. Incredible athlete.

(2) Howard's got turrible turrible hands, a fact that becomes painfully obvious when compared to the Dream. It's like he's using a couple of frying pans to flip the ball into the net. Also, interestingly enough, I think Howard actually HAS the personality that LeBron tried to pass off while in Cleveland. Extremely gregarious, eager to please, overcompensatingly funny (channeling Chandler Bing?). Something he shares in common with BronBron, no killer instinct. Which is why he'll never be on this list despite his immense athletic talent.

Apologies for the tangent.

[SeriousSummer]

Here's my list, but it really only goes to 21 and it's divided into groups:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Oscar Robertson

These are the four greatest players of all time. Pick any of them as your number one player, but nobody else is in their league.

5. Magic
6. Bird

Magic and Bird brought the league back from nowhere and fall just behind the great Pantheon above. Again, it's a matter of opinion who is better, but one is five and one is six.

7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Dirk
15. Dr. J
16. Karl Malone
17. Charles Barkley
18. Bob Petit
19. Elgin Baylor
20. David Robinson
21. John Havelicek

This is a big group of players, fifteen in all, who are in the third rank of excellence. There is a lot of room for discussion as to what order they should go in, but they all fall just short of the big six but they all have both individual and team performances that place them among the truly elite, but just short of the first six. The one really often over looked player in this group is Bob Petit, probably because he retried 45 years ago, so I'm sure a lot of you don't remember him--even if you're old enough, the NBA wasn't really televised much, if at all, in those days. Petit averaged better than 26 points and 16 rebounds for his career. BTW: I would have put Dirk in the next group, not this one, before this year.

22. Bob Cousy
23. Rick Barry
24. Walt Frazier
25. John Stockton
26. George Mikan
27. Reggie Miller
28. David Thompson
29. Jason Kidd
30. Bernard King
31. LeBron James
32. Bill Walton
33. Artis Gilmore
34. Wes Unseld
35. Kevin McHale

This is an off the top of my head listing of other players who fall into the next grouping. There are probably another dozen or more (Marevich, Sam Jones, Dwayne Wade, Pippin, etc.) that you could add. These players either lack championships (Bernard King, Lebron) and MVPs (Stockton, Gilmore), weren't the best player on their own team (McHale, Pipin), didn't have longevity (Walton) or sustained excellence (Wade--the GOAT don't play on fifteen win teams). Some of them revolutionized the game in their own time (Cousy, Mikan), but their reputation seems to exceed their skills.

[CadBane]

^^Good list, but IMO you are REALLY overrating the Big O and Reggie Miller.

[fluid.forty.one]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. West
12. Oscar
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Dirk
16. Dr. J
17. David Robinson
18. Charles Barkley
19. Karl Malone
20. Kevin Garnett
21. John Havelcek
22. Rick Barry
23. Patrick Ewing
24. Isiah Thomas
25. John Stockton

[SeriousSummer]

Originally Posted by CadBane

^^Good list, but IMO you are REALLY overrating the Big O and Reggie Miller.

I'll give you Reggie Miller--he only really strikes me as one of 20-25 players that you can argue slides into the last couple of slots.

But the big O was incredible. I only remember him from playing with Milwaukee--and that's like knowing Jason Kidd only from the time he played with the Mavs. He averaged a triple double in 1961-1962 and just missed doing so in 1963-1964. He was a great scorer and shot .485 during a time when shooting percentages were much lower. Oscar was an excellent defender. He was on the 1971 Milwaukee Bucks NBA champions and the finals team in 1974 when the Bucks lost a seven game series.

But besides all that, my memory of the Big O is that even in his final years he had the same impact on controlling the game that Jason Kidd does, but Oscar was a much better defender and a better scorer. I don't remember O from the 1960s, but even watching him in his 14th year in the league, you could see what he must have been like when he was younger.