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Old 07-01-2011, 05:45 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Murphy3 View Post
When looking at PER for guys that played especially in the 50's and 60's and even into the early 70's, you have to understand that some of the data is incomplete. We don't have solid numbers for every statistical category dating back 40-50 years ago. So, that could help some players and hurt others.

Some opinions of mine..

1. If you were a good big man in the 50-60's, you probably put up insane numbers that would not hold up in the game today.
2. In the 80's, scoring was typically much higher as was rebounding. Realize that the game was more up tempo and scoring, shooting percentages, assists, total rebounds and even turnovers are all inflated with compared to the era that we're currently in. A 25 point scorer today would probably project to closer to 28 points back in the 80's.
3. Guards in today's game have the luxury of ridiculous advantages on the offensive side of the ball when it comes to officiating.
4. It was not uncommon for ABA teams to AVERAGE more than 120 points a game. That happened a handful of times during it's short existence. 115 points a game was not remotely rare at all. Some years, it was common. Again, you have to factor in what type of impact that would have had on a player's performance.
5. Again, the NBA was a much faster paced league back in the day of Magic and Bird. Offensive numbers are rather inflated in my opinion. There were times in which the game resembled what we see during All-Star weekend more than what we saw back in the early 90's..
So it sounds like you are saying we shouldn't use things like PER to compare players from different era's? I've always thought that it's very difficult to compare players from different times due to rule changes, the game just being different and some of the things that you just mentioned.

But just going through the list, the conclusions don't look accurate (as far as comparing players).
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:01 PM   #122
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There ISN'T an inconsistency. For starters, you are BLATANTLY lying about what I said. Don't put fucking quotations around something I never said. I never said Barkley and Dirk were equal defensive rebounders, I said Barkley was a SLIGHTLY BETTER defensive rebounder...the metric AND raw stats conclude that.

Dirk's career DRB% is 22%. Barkley's is 23.7%.

Dirk's career DRPG is 7.1. Barkley's is 7.7.

Thus, Barkley's 1.3% edge = .6 in raw stats. How is that inconsistent?
My apoligies on getting your statement incorrect. The cursing is not necessary though.

It's inconsistent because if you are using DRB% to conclude that Barkley is slightly better since he has a slightly better DRB%, then wouldn't you also have to conclude that 35 individuals were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone, since his DRB% has his 36th on the list? You are basically saying this is your conclusion based on the metric (they have near the same %). So wouldn't that theory hold for other comparisons, such as Moses Malone being 36th on the list?

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As for Moses Malone, he only averaged 7.1 DRPG for his career (NBA)...the SAME number as Dirk! You love raw numbers so much, yet according to raw numbers, Dirk & Moses were equal rebounders.
Moses Malone played until he was 39. I have already mentioned this to you once, but when you are using numbers to compare players you have to take into account that one is currently playing and has yet to really hit their decline and one (ala Moses Malone or Karl Malone) is finished playing and their final average includes post prime years, which causes theur numbers to drop. Dirk has played 13 seasons and is 32 or 33. Go look at Malone's numbers from his first 13 years and I guarentee you his drb avg was not the same as Dirk's.

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Moses also has a BETTER DRB% than Dirk! 23.3% to 22%! So what exactly are you arguing? In fact, it's the METRIC stat that shows Moses as a better rebounder than Dirk and your RAW stats that show them as equal.
I am arguing that if I use the metric in the same manner that you are using it, then the conclusions tell me that 35 people were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone. That's not an accurate conclusion. These are the types of inconsistencies that I'm referring to. The same goes for PER, which tells me that David Robinson was more productive than Kareem, Wilt and Hakeem.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:21 PM   #123
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My apoligies on getting your statement incorrect. The cursing is not necessary though.

It's inconsistent because if you are using DRB% to conclude that Barkley is slightly better since he has a slightly better DRB%, then wouldn't you also have to conclude that 35 individuals were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone, since his DRB% has his 36th on the list? You are basically saying this is your conclusion based on the metric (they have near the same %). So wouldn't that theory hold for other comparisons, such as Moses Malone being 36th on the list?



Moses Malone played until he was 39. I have already mentioned this to you once, but when you are using numbers to compare players you have to take into account that one is currently playing and has yet to really hit their decline and one (ala Moses Malone or Karl Malone) is finished playing and their final average includes post prime years, which causes theur numbers to drop. Dirk has played 13 seasons and is 32 or 33. Go look at Malone's numbers from his first 13 years and I guarentee you his drb avg was not the same as Dirk's.



I am arguing that if I use the metric in the same manner that you are using it, then the conclusions tell me that 35 people were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone. That's not an accurate conclusion. These are the types of inconsistencies that I'm referring to. The same goes for PER, which tells me that David Robinson was more productive than Kareem, Wilt and Hakeem.
What ARE you arguing?

You say that Moses' DRB% is lower because he played until he was 39...this is in part true. So why are you surprised that X amount of guys have better DRB% than him, when you already conclude that his DRB% (AND raw DRPG) is lower bc he played so late in his career?

Malone, in his PRIME had a higher DRB% than Dirk in his prime...so I'm not seeing the point of contention.

If we look at MM's PRIME, I'm guessing he is no longer 35th. He's 35th, in part, because as we've already established, his rebounding declined with age.
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:52 AM   #124
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What ARE you arguing?

You say that Moses' DRB% is lower because he played until he was 39...this is in part true. So why are you surprised that X amount of guys have better DRB% than him, when you already conclude that his DRB% (AND raw DRPG) is lower bc he played so late in his career?

Malone, in his PRIME had a higher DRB% than Dirk in his prime...so I'm not seeing the point of contention.

If we look at MM's PRIME, I'm guessing he is no longer 35th. He's 35th, in part, because as we've already established, his rebounding declined with age.
I am not trying to argue Dirk vs Moses Malone. I am simply using Malone as an example of how the metrics conclusions have some inconsistencies, which is why I don't rely on them. In the case of Malone, he is 36th on the list. Tons of the players above him played full careers as well. There werent 35 better rebounders than Moses. Marcus Camby and Carlos Boozer are 5th and 6th on the list. They aren't the 5th and 6th best defensive rebounders that we have seen. The PER metric also has tons of these conclusions that don't make sense, such as David Robinson being above Wilt and Kareem.*

That's all I'm arguing and questioning you about. The metric is producing some results that don't make sense, as far as comparing players. And PER completely discounts defense (look at Bruce Bowens PER for example).*
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Old 07-02-2011, 01:20 AM   #125
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But Boozer and Camby haven't played until age 39! MM's defensive rebounding plummeted late in his career. It is what it is. You do realize in RAW stats, Malone's career DRPG is LOWER than 36th all-time.
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Old 07-04-2011, 07:13 PM   #126
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But Boozer and Camby haven't played until age 39! MM's defensive rebounding plummeted late in his career. It is what it is. You do realize in RAW stats, Malone's career DRPG is LOWER than 36th all-time.
Camby has played 14 seasons, which is basically a full career and then some. Do you think he is the 5th best defensive rebounder since 70-71, since the metric has him 5th on the list?

Hakeem Olajuwon has grabbed at least 9 drp's per game 5 times, and his highest DRB% was 28.3%, which he hit twice. Camby has grabbed at least 9 drb's per game only 3 times, yet his highest DRB% is 33.3% and he has topped 30% 8 times. So per this metric, Olajuwon never had a drp season better than 8 of Camby's 14 top seasons, even though all of his raw numbers are better? That conclusion makes sense to you?

What it is is quite a few conclusions that make no sense. That is if you are using the metric to compare players. The lists have tons of inconsistencies on there is all I'm saying. I'm not saying ignore them completely. But these inconsistencies and the fact that one ignores defense makes me not put that much weight into them.

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Old 07-05-2011, 09:35 AM   #127
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Camby has played 14 seasons, which is basically a full career and then some. Do you think he is the 5th best defensive rebounder since 70-71, since the metric has him 5th on the list?

Hakeem Olajuwon has grabbed at least 9 drp's per game 5 times, and his highest DRB% was 28.3%, which he hit twice. Camby has grabbed at least 9 drb's per game only 3 times, yet his highest DRB% is 33.3% and he has topped 30% 8 times. So per this metric, Olajuwon never had a drp season better than 8 of Camby's 14 top seasons, even though all of his raw numbers are better? That conclusion makes sense to you?

What it is is quite a few conclusions that make no sense. That is if you are using the metric to compare players. The lists have tons of inconsistencies on there is all I'm saying. I'm not saying ignore them completely. But these inconsistencies and the fact that one ignores defense makes me not put that much weight into them.
just a question - comparing Hakeem and Camby who is a better defensive rebounder?
Your tone implies the former and in such a way that there's no question about it. or perhaps i'm misunderstanding what you've implied. thanks.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:32 PM   #128
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Camby has played 14 seasons, which is basically a full career and then some. Do you think he is the 5th best defensive rebounder since 70-71, since the metric has him 5th on the list?

Hakeem Olajuwon has grabbed at least 9 drp's per game 5 times, and his highest DRB% was 28.3%, which he hit twice. Camby has grabbed at least 9 drb's per game only 3 times, yet his highest DRB% is 33.3% and he has topped 30% 8 times. So per this metric, Olajuwon never had a drp season better than 8 of Camby's 14 top seasons, even though all of his raw numbers are better? That conclusion makes sense to you?
Actually, yes, it does make sense to me. I'd have to look at all of the numbers such as attempts per game, DRB numbers and yada yada..but yeah, those stats could very easily make perfect sense.

And looking at the numbers, I just don't see why you'd have a problem with Camby and Moses Malone. Marcus Camby is one of the best defensive rebounders in the history of the game. Of course, some of that has to do with the fact that he's playing in a league without alot of dominant centers.

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Old 07-16-2011, 10:44 PM   #129
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just a question - comparing Hakeem and Camby who is a better defensive rebounder?
Your tone implies the former and in such a way that there's no question about it. or perhaps i'm misunderstanding what you've implied. thanks.
Maybe I need to explain myself better (response to you and Murphy3. No, I do not think Marcus Camby is the 5th best defensive rebounder in league history since 70-71. Just like I don't think there were 12 players better than Magic, Bird, Hakeem and Oscar, since neither is in the top 12 in PER, which has LeBron #2 and I think it's fair to say no one thinks he is a top 3 player all-time. These lists have too many of these inconsistencies for me to rely on them above raw numbers. The fact that PER has David Robinson above Wilt, Duncan, Kareem and Hakeem should make everyone toss it out the window (as far as using it to rank players).

And my argument isn't necessarily that Hakeem is a better defensive rebounder than Camby, even though I think he was. My argument is look at how the metric is created and the results that it produces. Using the Hakeem/Camby example, Hakeem has multiple seasons where he grabbed more drb's than Camby or was in the same range, yet he has never hit 30% even though Camby hit that mark 8 times. My argument is....are you really saying Hakeem NEVER had a defensive rebounding season as good as Camby's top 8 seasons? Not once can you say he was a better defensive rebounder than Camby at his peak? Not even the 89/90 season, where he grabbed 10.4 drp's per night and led the LEAGUE in defensive rebounds by a wide margin (850 to 680 for David Robinson, who did play a full 82 games)? That lone season was never better than over half of Camby's? That's not an accurate conclusion.

These advanced metrics are another way to analyze the data, based on different estimates. But the conclusions don't always make sense. It doesn't make much sense to say Hakeem never had a better defensive rebounding season than 8 of Camby's seasons, not even when he led the entire NBA in defensive boards.
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Old 07-17-2011, 03:47 AM   #130
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IMO if Stockton makes top 25 then J-Kidd should be up there as well. He has the championship ring as an advantage plus led 2 scrubbed up Nets teams to consecutive Finals appearances and is probably the best rebounding PG ever not named Magic (who is ridiculously tall for a PG,and Big O played in the no-defense no-rebounding era)
Plus Stockton had one of the greatest offensive players ever in Karl beside him.


Anyways,
1. "Push-Off" Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Wilt
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Russell
11. Moses
12. Oscar
13. Dirk
14. West
15. Karl Malone
16. Julius
17. David Robinson
18. Charles Barkley
19. KG
20. Rick Barry
21. Patrick Ewing
22. Jason Kidd
23. Bob Petit
24. Stockton
25. Isiah

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Old 07-18-2011, 01:02 AM   #131
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http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=duncati01

Not sure if you used this before. This is a comparison of each game two players went head-to-head. Example above is Dirk vs Duncan. I didn't realize how close they were in wins/losses, even in playoffs, despite the fact that the Spurs won more series.
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:35 PM   #132
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I just don't think Pippen should be on anyones top 25. He was who he was because he was able to play with Jordan. Once Jordan retired Pippen was nothing.
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Old 10-19-2011, 05:35 PM   #133
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I just don't think Pippen should be on anyones top 25. He was who he was because he was able to play with Jordan. Once Jordan retired Pippen was nothing.
The Bulls won 55 games and lost in the 2nd Round to the Knicks in 7 games during the 93-94 season that Jordan missed.

That's a typical Mavs season in the Dirk era - not too shabby for a Robin-led team. Pippen deserves some credit there.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:01 PM   #134
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I think Pippen is borderline top 15 material. EASILY the best second-best player ever. And that is by no means any kind of backhanded compliment. Anyone who says "He wasn't any good without Jordan" should really take some time to study those great Bulls teams... if you do, you'll see that Pippen was as destructively versatile defensively as Michael was offensively.

As much as people love to call LeBron "capable of defending four positions" -- Pippen was the mold for that kind of player, and if you watched any sample of 2-3 Bulls games from the 90s, you will legitimately see Pippen matched up against every position from 1-4. Not just occasionally switching defensively onto a much bigger or smaller guy, but actually matched up with the guys for extended stretches. Seriously, Pippen in his prime could guard literally any player in the NBA today. From Chris Paul to Dwight Howard, Pippen could guard any of these guys. Maybe not shut every last one of them down, but he would be able to make anybody today work hard as hell to get their contributions in. And along with that, he's also going to give you 18-20ppg with 6 boards and 6 assists on 50% shooting.

Honestly, I kind of have a hard time imagining Pippen NOT being in the discussion for the best player in the league today if he was in his prime. Unless you have a thing against fantastic stat lines and all of the small things.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:37 PM   #135
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I think Pippen is borderline top 15 material. EASILY the best second-best player ever. And that is by no means any kind of backhanded compliment. Anyone who says "He wasn't any good without Jordan" should really take some time to study those great Bulls teams... if you do, you'll see that Pippen was as destructively versatile defensively as Michael was offensively.

As much as people love to call LeBron "capable of defending four positions" -- Pippen was the mold for that kind of player, and if you watched any sample of 2-3 Bulls games from the 90s, you will legitimately see Pippen matched up against every position from 1-4. Not just occasionally switching defensively onto a much bigger or smaller guy, but actually matched up with the guys for extended stretches. Seriously, Pippen in his prime could guard literally any player in the NBA today. From Chris Paul to Dwight Howard, Pippen could guard any of these guys. Maybe not shut every last one of them down, but he would be able to make anybody today work hard as hell to get their contributions in. And along with that, he's also going to give you 18-20ppg with 6 boards and 6 assists on 50% shooting.

Honestly, I kind of have a hard time imagining Pippen NOT being in the discussion for the best player in the league today if he was in his prime. Unless you have a thing against fantastic stat lines and all of the small things.
I think you're taking it too far with Top 15, and best in the league today...but I 100% agree with everything else. Pippen is the epitome of a Robin. A lockdown stud on D, a very good scorer and passer.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:21 PM   #136
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*Bump*

Now that Lebron finally has a ring, I think his name certainly has to be several notches higher on the list. Love him or hate him, he's without question the best player in the world.

My revised list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Wilt
7. Hakeem
8. Kobe
9. Russell
10. Duncan
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Baylor
14. Dr. J
15. Moses Malone
16. Big O
17. Dirk
18. The Mailman
19. Sir Charles
21. Wade
22. Admiral
23. McHale
T- Stockton & Kidd

Honestly, it's tough to keep him out of the top 10 at this point. 3 MVP's in four years is just plain sick. When it's said and done, he'll definitely be top 10. Maybe top 5.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:28 PM   #137
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When it's said and done, he'll definitely be top 10. Maybe top 5.
When it's said and done, he'll probably be #1.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:34 PM   #138
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I dunno if he'll be #1 or #3 or #5 or whatever, but he'll be way up there. This narrative about him being a "loser" or a "choker" was never going to last.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:32 PM   #139
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When it's said and done, he'll probably be #1.
It's certainly not far-fetched.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:03 PM   #140
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Wade has no business being in the top-25 all-time. Just my opinion.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #141
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I just don't think Pippen should be on anyones top 25. He was who he was because he was able to play with Jordan. Once Jordan retired Pippen was nothing.
Take Pippen away from MJ, Jordan is nothing but Dominique Wilkins. Pippen defended the best offensive player, he gave MJ the legs to get on Sportcenter for the final shot.

Pippen was all defense first team, in his first 3 years without MJ. He's top 25.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:54 PM   #142
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When it's said and done, he'll probably be #1.
Agreed.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:37 PM   #143
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LeBron as the #1 player of all time?

He's gotta do a helluva lot more than win a ring in a lockout-shortened season (*) to earn that title... Let's see him win one when the playing field is even.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:47 PM   #144
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* 2nd Bump* Even though it was started by he who shall not be named, this is a damn good thread and I think the discussion deserves to be revisited. A lot has happened in the two years since, specifically when it comes to two players- Lebron and Durant. Lebron has two rings now, and Durant has an MVP and a career of absolutely sick numbers.

I don't feel like revising my whole list just now, but I just know Lebron has to be in the top 10. If I'm starting a franchise today, I'd take Lebron over Magic or Larry, easily. Wouldn't even blink. And Durant has to be pretty high on the list too- higher than Dirk, it pains me to say. The only argument otherwise is that Dirk has a ring and Durant doesn't, but Durant is only 25 and has accomplished a great deal more than Dirk had at the same age.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:07 PM   #145
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Thats a tough question. But I will say Dwyane, Kobe, Timmy, KG, and Lebron are most definitely in the top 25.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:06 AM   #146
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From nowadays Players Lebron, Kobe, KG, Dirk and Durant will make that list.

Wade and Carmelo will be runner ups.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:17 AM   #147
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I just don't think Pippen should be on anyones top 25. He was who he was because he was able to play with Jordan. Once Jordan retired Pippen was nothing.
Wow. U remind of me of Skip Bayless when you said that. Having Michael Jordan on your team sure does help. U probably forgot when Jordan retired before the 1993-1994 season, that season Scottie Pippen statistically arguably had his best season as a player. The Bulls were a 3 seed in the East, they swept the Cavs in the 1st round, and lost to a damn good Knicks team in 7, he helped take the Blazers to the West Finals in 2000, Scottie is arguably the greatest one on one defensive player EVER, and last time I checked, Michael had 0 rings until Scottie came to Chi-town. Overall as a player, Michael Jordan hands down is a better player than Scottie Pippen, but to say Scottie don't deserve to be listed on top 25 players of all time is funny, even if u wanted to say there are other players u feel are better, I will respect that more, but don't make it seem its a joke to mention Scottie in the top 25 of all time
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:20 AM   #148
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From nowadays Players Lebron, Kobe, KG, Dirk and Durant will make that list.

Wade and Carmelo will be runner ups.
So you are saying KD will make the list before DWade? I disagree with you on that 100%. Honestly I would even put Wade in front of Dirk as well. Wade is a way better all around player than Dirk and Kevin
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:25 AM   #149
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Wade has no business being in the top-25 all-time. Just my opinion.
Are you serious?
Dwyane Wade Career Accomplishments
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:29 AM   #150
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The problem with bumping old threads like this is that there's always somebody who argues with opinions that were posted 2-3 years ago... Context can change a lot in that amount of time.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:40 AM   #151
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Are you serious?
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and in the last 4 games of the 2006 NBA playoffs he
went to the FT line 18.5x per game - a record!
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:13 PM   #152
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The problem with bumping old threads like this is that there's always somebody who argues with opinions that were posted 2-3 years ago... Context can change a lot in that amount of time.
True, but that's also the main reason I bumped it- to note just how much the landscape of the NBA has changed in 2-3 years. Three years ago, few people (on this board anyway) would have put Lebron in the top 25, and nobody nobody would have put Durant in there.

It also strikes me how much I disagree with my own list. Looking back on it, I think I overrated Moses Malone. In fact I think he's a bit overrated in general- he was a notorious stat-padder. If I were to remake the list now, I'd probably have him behind Dirk. I might have Baylor and Dr. J a little lower as well.
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:53 PM   #153
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True, but that's also the main reason I bumped it- to note just how much the landscape of the NBA has changed in 2-3 years. Three years ago, few people (on this board anyway) would have put Lebron in the top 25, and nobody nobody would have put Durant in there.

It also strikes me how much I disagree with my own list. Looking back on it, I think I overrated Moses Malone. In fact I think he's a bit overrated in general- he was a notorious stat-padder. If I were to remake the list now, I'd probably have him behind Dirk. I might have Baylor and Dr. J a little lower as well.
Oh, I get why you bumped it - I just don't think that some of the people posting in this thread understand that they're responding to years-old posts.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:13 AM   #154
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True, but that's also the main reason I bumped it- to note just how much the landscape of the NBA has changed in 2-3 years. Three years ago, few people (on this board anyway) would have put Lebron in the top 25, and nobody nobody would have put Durant in there.

It also strikes me how much I disagree with my own list. Looking back on it, I think I overrated Moses Malone. In fact I think he's a bit overrated in general- he was a notorious stat-padder. If I were to remake the list now, I'd probably have him behind Dirk. I might have Baylor and Dr. J a little lower as well.
Dr j is the one you have overrated but that's not rare. He's almost without question the most overrated player ever largely because of his ridiculously inflated aba stats.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:02 AM   #155
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Dr j is the one you have overrated but that's not rare. He's almost without question the most overrated player ever largely because of his ridiculously inflated aba stats.
You're probably right. Like several other guys on the list he was way before my time, so I never saw him play a single minute. I've only seen highlights and looked at his numbers. In context, his numbers probably aren't nearly as impressive.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:44 AM   #156
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You're probably right. Like several other guys on the list he was way before my time, so I never saw him play a single minute. I've only seen highlights and looked at his numbers. In context, his numbers probably aren't nearly as impressive.
That's exactly why I can't come up with a Top-25 Greatest Players list of my own... I can't just rate a guy based on statistics - I need to see them play (and I didn't watch basketball before the 80's).

I could come up with a Top-25 Favorite Players list though.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:42 AM   #157
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You're probably right. Like several other guys on the list he was way before my time, so I never saw him play a single minute. I've only seen highlights and looked at his numbers. In context, his numbers probably aren't nearly as impressive.
His career nba avges were 22-7-4. Not bad at all but not anything special when you consider he played in the go go 80s. Never won a title as the best player.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:28 PM   #158
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That's exactly why I can't come up with a Top-25 Greatest Players list of my own... I can't just rate a guy based on statistics - I need to see them play (and I didn't watch basketball before the 80's).

I could come up with a Top-25 Favorite Players list though.
My top 25 favorite players-

1. Dirk
2-25. Everyone else.
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:46 PM   #159
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My top 25 favorite players-

1. Dirk
2-25. Everyone else.
Thief.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:14 PM   #160
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My top 25 favorite players-

1. Dirk
2-25. Everyone else.
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