Let's talk roster.

[spreedom]

Can any cap experts confirm how much we'll be able to offer for Brand?

[reflexred]

BRAND HOPING TO BE CLAIMED BY MAVS

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/0...s=iref:nbahpt2

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by spreedom

Can any cap experts confirm how much we'll be able to offer for Brand?

Around 6m

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by aexchange

Around 6m

Yup. I had them at a hair under 6Mil, DLord had them a hair over 6Mil. I'll go with DLord.

[SMC0007]

[DevinHarriswillstart]

So it looks to me like the Mavs are going to try to hold the fort defensively at the 1-3 positions and win offensively with the 4/5. Kaman/Dirk/Wright/Brand (assuming we win him) can all put it in the basket.

[Murphy3]

Well, the Mavs will get some offense out of their point guard. Matrix should still give you around 10. Would be nice if they could get something from the SGuard spot.

[aexchange]

Will be interested in the tactic that the Mavs use to bid on Brand. They have a couple of options as I see it:

1) Blow all of the remaining space to bid on brand and use the mini MLE to retain Delonte
2) Use some portion of the space to bid on Brand ($3M), leave another $3M to try to swing for a Courtney Lee type of player, and use mini MLE on Delonte

Lee is still floating out there and would be a very nice get, but this will be an interesting next couple of days to see what the Mavs do. Anyone have any numbers on what the Blazers could bid? I'm going to assume the Rockets are out because they want to keep their cap space and that the Hornets will likely be out as well once they match Gordon.

Obviously in a scenario you land Lee, you'd be overloaded at the swing positions, but I'd imagine it would be easy enough to dump Dojo on some poor unsuspecting sucker.

The other thing I wanted to add is you have to wonder if the leak that the Mavs are going to outbid everyone for Brand is coming from the Mavs or Brand's camp in order to keep other bidders out of the process. If they were able to land Brand w/out using all of their cap space, that would be a real coupe.

[Bayliss]

but I'd imagine it would be easy enough to dump Dojo on some poor unsuspecting sucker.

I'm hoping they would be able to trade him to team a la the Bobcats for a future second rounder.

[turin]

Wow, what an emotional swing. I was pretty down in the dumps yesterday, but this morning I'm feeling much better. I really like the Kaman signing. I think he's underrated due to injuries and history of being on bad teams. I love the Collison pick up, and while I appreciated JK's game finishing ability, he wasn't exactly stellar in the OKC series. Sign Brand and re-sign West, and I'm pretty happy. The main hole I see on this team is at sg. We need a 3-point threat. Sheesh, just when JET leaves, this is the perfect type of team for him. He doesn't have to be the #2 scorer night after night.

What a difference a good night's sleep can make. LOL

Go Mavs!

[LonghornDub]

JET would have fit like a glove on this roster, now. Kind of unfortunate, but funny how that happens.

[Bayliss]

See I don't believe Jet would have fit that well. Kidd covered up a lot of Jet's shortcomings because Kidd could guard the SGs of the league.

To me having Kidd as the SG would have been better. Kidd + Collison in the backcourt is better than Jet + Collison. They make up their deficiencies better than Jet and Collison do.

Kidd is a great passer. Collison is not.
Kidd is a good spot up 3 point shooter. Collison is not.
Kidd sucks at the pick and roll. Collison plays that well.
Kidd is strong as ox and guards big guards well. Collison is a waterbug that can try and hold down fast guards.

[markus1234]

I think Kidd and Jet are more or less done. It was the perfect moment to get rid of both of them. Jet will soon become an undersized Jerry Stackouse, a step too slow to create high % shots.

Harden and Westbrook showed already how easy it will be to shut him down...

Last 2 games

3-10 11pts
4-12 11pts

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

See I don't believe Jet would have fit that well. Kidd covered up a lot of Jet's shortcomings because Kidd could guard the SGs of the league.

JET covered up a lot of Kidd's shortcomings because JET could actually initiate offense and create his own shot. This team has a gaping hole at SG right now. JET would at least moderately fill that hole, Kidd would not.

Your argument about defense must be omitting Dahntay Jones from the equation. He'll be guarding the SGs, and he is better suited for it than Kidd (although not as crafty).

Collison-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Kaman (closing lineup for offense)
Terry-Jones-Marion-Dirk-Kaman/Brand (closing lineup for defense)
Collison-Jones-Marion-Dirk-Kaman/Brand (alternate closing lineup for defense)

All of those are far better than any offering with Kidd.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Kidd is a good spot up 3 point shooter. Collison is not.

Their respective 3p% is almost identical over the past 2 seasons.

[Bayliss]

Collison-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Kaman (closing lineup for offense)
Terry-Jones-Marion-Dirk-Kaman/Brand (closing lineup for defense)

Both of those are far better than any offering with Kidd.

The problem with your last lineup is Terry as the PG. With he and Jones, the Mavs would get pressed to death. Jason Terry couldn't even DRIBBLE against Russell Westbrook's pressure against OKC.

And most of the time Terry can't even break the token pressure that teams give him around the semi circle.

And your other lineup? Terrible defensively on the perimeter.

[Bayliss]

Their respective 3p% is almost identical over the past 2 seasons.

Yeah but Kidd's would be more impressive if he didn't have big feet. He lost a good 3-5% just because of his damn big feet.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

Their respective 3p% is almost identical over the past 2 seasons.

Yep, and only one of them has room for improvement at this point in their careers...

[sike]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Yeah but Kidd's would be more impressive if he didn't have big feet. He lost a good 3-5% just because of his damn big feet.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Collison-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Kaman (closing lineup for offense)
Terry-Jones-Marion-Dirk-Kaman/Brand (closing lineup for defense)

Both of those are far better than any offering with Kidd.te]

The problem with your last lineup is Terry as the PG. With he and Jones, the Mavs would get pressed to death. Jason Terry couldn't even DRIBBLE against Russell Westbrook's pressure against OKC.

And most of the time Terry can't even break the token pressure that teams give him around the semi circle.

And your other lineup? Terrible defensively on the perimeter.

Terry played PG during crunch time of the biggest series in Mavs' history. With the best player in the NBA defending him. Yeah, he's awful at it.

One of the biggest, most uninformed myths on this board is that Terry can't play PG. He absolutely can. In fact, in relatively short spurts, he's quite good at it.

The other lineup is for offense, as I specifically noted. You say it's terrible defensively on the perimeter. That doesn't make any sense at all. Collison is a fine defender. Marion is an excellent defender. How many good perimeter defenders does a lineup need to be not "terrible"?

Honestly, the argument for Kidd over Terry at SG at this point is bordering on absurdity. Kidd is almost 40 and can't do anything other than spot-up shoot and play very limited crunch-time defense in spurts. And the latter isn't even that useful until deep in the playoffs. We need a SG who can contribute consistently over an entire season. We don't have the luxury of picking and choosing for late-game playoff situations exclusively.

[iella]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

No Kidd
No Terry
No Haywood
possibly
No Shotgun toting Point Guard.

Plus shotgun toting center
Plus Jones
Plus Collison

The Mavs are a piece or two away from being significantly better than last year.

FYP.

[Bayliss]

Terry played PG during crunch time of the biggest series in Mavs' history. With the best player in the NBA defending him. Yeah, he's awful at it.

But I believe Kidd was out there directing traffic so he wasn't the point guard. Without Kidd out there, Terry wouldn't even have been able to do anything.

One of the biggest, most uninformed myths on this board is that Terry can't play PG. He absolutely can. In fact, in relatively short spurts, he's quite good at it.

Not according to the Mavs FO. Since the 06 or 07 season, the Mavs have not run Terry out as point guard.

Honestly, the argument for Kidd over Terry at SG at this point is bordering on absurdity. Kidd is almost 40 and can't do anything other than spot-up shoot and play very limited crunch-time defense in spurts. And the latter isn't even that useful until deep in the playoffs. We need a SG who can contribute consistently over an entire season. We don't have the luxury of picking and choosing for late-game playoff situations exclusively.

Jet didn't contribute consistently last year either. And his game (being undersized, can't dribble left, etc) does not warrant longevity either.

[EricaLubarsky]

Before everyone gets too excited about the team as it is, I think people should consider the alternate strategies that the MBT are probably considering: dumping the expiring contracts at the deadline for a star player that we missed out on this offseason because of contract amount/length or letting them expire and shooting the moon in free agency next year. I guess if neither worked, we'd still have the chance to re-sign the three of them, too but I see the likelihood of at least 1 of them being traded as expiring by the deadline or just let expire as high.

There will be a lot of teams with buyers remorse from spending too much wanting out of those contracts and a few decent free agents next year too. Hopefully next years free agency will also be tempered a bit more. It's a decent hedge-betting strategy.

It's a strategy that may finally net us that second superstar, we may just not end up keep Kaman, jones and Collison

Still, dirk + a couple decent players make the playoffs and I think we got that

[turin]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Yeah but Kidd's would be more impressive if he didn't have big feet. He lost a good 3-5% just because of his damn big feet.

Quite possible. However, he might not have been able to land the new wife with "smaller" feet. ;-)

[Budapest Maverick]

Would love to get Bellinelli. He's an amazing talent, he just needs a kick in the a**. A very big kick, but still.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

But I believe Kidd was out there directing traffic so he wasn't the point guard. Without Kidd out there, Terry wouldn't even have been able to do anything.

I don't want to sound unfairly harsh, but you're just making that up. Go watch the last several minutes of Game 5 against the Heat again and tell me who was "directing traffic" and running the offense. It was Terry. Terry repeatedly beating LeBron off the dribble, Terry repeatedly setting up other guys. He scored or assisted on 11 of the Mavs' last 13 points. Meanwhile, Kidd was a weakside spot up shooter. Nothing more.

And that game is just one example of many, even in the Finals alone.

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Not according to the Mavs FO. Since the 06 or 07 season, the Mavs have not run Terry out as point guard.

This is just factually incorrect. I gave one huge example to the contrary already, and there are countless others. Not starting him at the 1 doesn't mean he hasn't played PG, especially late in games.

Nothing else I can say if you want to continue citing incorrect information.

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Jet didn't contribute consistently last year either. And his game (being undersized, can't dribble left, etc) does not warrant longevity either.

He contributed a hell of a lot more than Kidd. More minutes, 5% higher from the field, 2% higher from 3, and only 1.9 less assists per game despite not playing PG the majority of the time. And their shooting percentages in the playoffs were even more divergent. Terry was 46% and 50% from three, Kidd was 34% and 35%, respectively.

There's no factual basis for your argument. You're clearly just going off "feel" and other vague, immeasurable factors, so I'm really not sure we can discuss this further.

[turin]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

See I don't believe Jet would have fit that well. Kidd covered up a lot of Jet's shortcomings because Kidd could guard the SGs of the league.

To me having Kidd as the SG would have been better.

You have got to be kidding me. With the addition of Brand and re-signing West, the biggest glaring weakness will be the lack of a 3-point threat. Terry is pretty darn good. I've always been a bit down on Terry as a Mav, but it's not really his fault. He has a specific skill set, but he was too important to the team for his skill set to fill the role needed. Specifically, for the most part, the Mavs needed Terry to be the #2 scorer. While he can do it intermittently, he is not consistent enough. I've always looked at Terry as being very good for 2 games of a 7 game series. That won't get it done, and I think that's the main reason the Mavs fell short year after year (including his defensive liability).

As far as Kidd being the SG. LOL, that's about the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. Yes, he can cover the defensive part of the job, but please, his spot up shooting is only okay, and he had better be wide open. As far as driving the basket ANY, well, that's off the table unless he wants to pass out for an open 3. Then again, if he's the SG, it's gonna be a challenge to pass it out to himself. ;-)

Overall, I'm with Longhorn on his assessment.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by turin

You have got to be kidding me. With the addition of Brand and re-signing West, the biggest glaring weakness will be the lack of a 3-point threat. Terry is pretty darn good. I've always been a bit down on Terry as a Mav, but it's not really his fault. He has a specific skill set, but he was too important to the team for his skill set to fill the role needed. Specifically, for the most part, the Mavs needed Terry to be the #2 scorer. While he can do it intermittently, he is not consistent enough.

This, 100%.

[Bayliss]

I don't want to sound unfairly harsh, but you're just making that up. Go watch the last several minutes of Game 5 against the Heat again and tell me who was "directing traffic" and running the offense. It was Terry. Terry repeatedly beating LeBron off the dribble, Terry repeatedly setting up other guys. He scored or assisted on 11 of the Mavs' last 13 points. Meanwhile, Kidd was a weakside spot up shooter. Nothing more.

And that game is just one example of many, even in the Finals alone.

Okay I'll bite:

5 minutes left:
Kidd dribbles the ball up, gives it to Dirk, who drives and passes it back to Kidd ho passes it back to Dirk for an elbow fadeaway in which he misses.

Miami scores off a 3 pointer by Wade.

Marrion throws it in to Kidd who passes it to Barea who dribbles it up. Barea dribbles in the paint and passes it to Dirk who gets fouled with 4:30 left in the game.

Terry gets subbed in on the free throws. Kidd at the 4 minute mark steals the ball and dribbles it up. He feeds Dirk on the right block, who throws it away trying to hit Marion crosscourt.

After Bosh makes a free throw, Dirk inbounds it to Kidd who dribbles it up. He passes it to Terry who runs a screen and roll with Marion... throws it to Dirk on the block. When the double came he passes it back to Terry for a wide open 3.

Chandler grabs the rebound at the 2:50 mark, gives it to Kidd whio shoots it up to Terry. Terry swings it to Dirk on the baseline and Dirk drives for a dunk. the 2:18 mark Kidd dribbles it up past halfcourt againm and calls the action. He passes it to Dirk on the block. Dirk swings it to Chandler over to ZMarion who misses a tough shot in the lane.

At the 2 minute mark, Terry dribbles it up, hands it to Kidd who calls another play nar midcourt.... he pases it to Terry off of the two man action of Dirk/Terry. Terry curls in and sucks in the defense to give Kidd a wide open shot.

At the 1:13 minute mark, Terry gets the ball off of a steal and throws it up to Marion who misses a layup.

After Bosh misses a free throw Dirk give it to Kidd who brings it up the court. Kidd calls action gain at halfcourt. He throws it to Terry. He looks for Dirk underneath. He passes it to Kidd. Kidd throws it back to Terry who tries to run a pick and roll with Dirk. Instead he shoots the 3 and makes it.

At the 25 sec mark, Kidd inounds it to Dirk and the Heat are swarming, Dirk throws it back to Kidd. Kidd gets it punched of of bounds and is fouled.



Now did Terry make something happen in the two man game with him and Dirk? Yes. Was he the point guard directing traffic? Um, no. He didn't even call most of the plays in their flow system. He didn't even bring the ball up the court and tell people where to go most of those 5 minutes.

Without Kidd doing that Terry would not be able to play off the ball and receive the passes for the scoring opportunities. He played great. But it wasn't Point Guard play.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

JET would have fit like a glove on this roster, now. Kind of unfortunate, but funny how that happens.

Next to a 6'0" Collison?

He only fits as a PG, to me.

Edit: After reading the rest of the thread, I'll add that I don't think Kidd's a fit either. But I have no interest in Jet as a SG if I don't have a big PG to pair him with. He's just too much of a liability defensively.

If Jets wanted to be the backup PG and not be guaranteed to close games, he'd be a fit, but I wouldn't have much interest in any other role.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Next to a 6'0" Collison?

He only fits as a PG, to me.

Edit: After reading the rest of the thread, I'll add that I don't think Kidd's a fit either. But I have no interest in Jet as a SG if I don't have a big PG to pair him with. He's just too much of a liability defensively.

If Jets wanted to be the backup PG and not close games, he'd be a fit, but I wouldn't have much interest in any other role.

Well, but let's not make it sound like he has to play 30+ minutes a game with Collison. You can mix and match enough (especially if they get one other experienced guard, which I assume they will, whether Delonte or somebody else) to prevent the thing from being a constant sieve.

I could absolutely live with Terry on the court with Collison for short stretches, on the court with Dahntay for other stretches (playing PG), and on the court with, say, Delonte (assuming they do decide to bring him back).

We have a head coach who figured out how to effectively use 4 guards who were all decidedly limited in one way or another (Kidd, Stevenson, Terry, Barea). And he used almost every combination of those 4 at different times, including Terry-Barea (which is worse defensively than Terry-Collison). I think it'd work.

To your specific point, though, it's not worthwhile if Terry can't play PG. But he can. It also doesn't work as well if we assume (as you have) that Terry would strongly resist and overall reduced role with the team.

*edit to add* To be clear for anyone who just started following, this discussion is moot. Terry is going to Boston. I'm not holding out hope otherwise.

[grndmstr_c]

A Courtney Lee type with a slightly expanded ability to attack the basket would make me happier than JET, whose playmaking is less needed now than it was with Kidd, and whose defensive limitations would be more problematic absent a big PG, and with a front-court rotation of Dirk, Kaman and (hopefully) Brand.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

A Courtney Lee type with a slightly expanded ability to attack the basket would make me happier than JET, whose playmaking is less needed now than it was with Kidd, and whose defensive limitations would be more problematic absent a big PG, and with a front-court rotation of Dirk, Kaman and (hopefully) Brand.

I'd probably prefer Lee to JET at this point too, but I still think JET would have been a good fit. Too bad we can't afford Lee.

[Kidd Karma]

Just read a tweet, that Greg Oden is in play after first desiring to take a year off, Oden has made it known to Conley that he's in play. 7 teams have talked to Conley about Oden, but the Heat are not one of them.

[Bayliss]

Oden would be a great reclamation project. Just let him IR all next year. And see if he can play in the 12-13 season.

[Bayliss]

Lee would be a better fit than both Kidd and Terry.

Lee must have some major warts though if teams are constantly passing on him. He has good size, decent handles, pretty good defense, pretty good shooting ability.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Jets wanted to be the backup PG and not be guaranteed to close games, he'd be a fit, but I wouldn't have much interest in any other role.

Exactly. Jet as a pure shooter is wonderful. But that is NOT how Jet sees himself. At least not in a Dallas Uniform.

You have to balance out what Jet can do with the reality of what Jet thinks he can do.

In reality, Jet needed to go. And he has. The end.

[grndmstr_c]

J.J Redick. Thoughts?

[sike]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

J.J Redick. Thoughts?

Can they afford if they nab Brand for roughly 5mil?

If so, then "YES PLEASE!"

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

J.J Redick. Thoughts?

I don't know why the Magic would have picked up their team option on him if they didn't want him. Is he obtainable?