Artest is one of the two best players in the NBA... according to himself. - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sixeightmkw · 05-02-2006, 12:17 PM

ARtest is an average player. He is a career 41% FG shooter, a career 31% tp shooter, career 4.8 RPG, and pretty high turnover rate for being a Forward at 2.30 per game career. He is a good defender and can generate some steals and lock down on defenders. But he will never be elite. He never has been elite. You would think that after 7 years pro, an elite player would have showed it by now. He has not. He had a career year with Indy a few years back, but since then has slipped back to what he has been his entire career, and that is a good player. He has alimited game from 15 ft out, can back down smaller defenders and drives to the hoop. But that is about it for offense. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Brand, Wade, etc are or will be elite players in the NBA. Artest would have to really work to make my top 10. Mabey top 15.
And if everyone forgot his mental problems.

jthig32 · 05-02-2006, 12:27 PM

He's not just good defensively. He is arguably the very best defender in the NBA among swingmen. That, combined with average scoring ability, make him a top 20 player in the NBA, imo.

Jeremiah · 05-02-2006, 12:49 PM

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orangedays · 05-02-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah

He loves to play defense. He plays defense. He plays defense better than anyone else in the league. Or, at least on the wing.

That's exactly it. In a league dominated by the PF position - Artest is a SF, a big one, but a SF nonetheless. He is a perimeter defender who doesn't have the size to shut down Dirk or Duncan or Garnett or Brand or Gasol or O'Neal or Bosh or...well, you get my point. Compound that with the fact that he isn't fast enough to guard Parker or Nash or Paul. And do you really think Artest is going to keep the elite swingmen of the league like Bryant, McGrady, Pierce, Wade from scoring 25+ night-in, night-out? You're kidding yourself. So what you've really got by drafting Artest second...Second (goodness)...is, well, not a whole lot. And I don't think I need to tell you that an elite defensive squad doesn't start from the perimeter - it starts from the post.

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I think that in this league, a GM can always get a guy that can score 20 per night, and wants to score 20 per night. A bit harder to get, but certainly still feasible, is one who can get 25/night. Scorers are a dime a dozen. Guys who can and will defend like Artest are few and far between. Does his great defense inspire others to play defense when they would not otherwise? I think so. I'm not sure, but I think so.

Plus, he can score too. He's not a great scorer, but he's a pretty good scorer.

Scorers, indeed, are a dime-a-dozen. Efficient scorers, however, are few and far between. Legitimate #1 options? Even more vintage. Artest is neither of those things - in terms of scorers, he is just the sort of offensive threat you describe: dime-a-dozen. He's not bad by any means, but his offensive capabilities are grossly overrated and he is by no stretch of the imagination a #1 option. If Ron Artest is leading your team in points - a swingman with no outside shot and and who hits the ones he does take at a rim-rattling 40% clip - then you sir, are in deep trouble.

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I don't think this makes him the second best player in the league, but if I get to pick second, I pick him. Then I probably get someone like Brand or Pierce, who'd most assuredly be around, in the second round.

If we were both GMs, and you had the 2nd pick, I'd want you to pick Artest too. I would then offer to trade you Kwame Brown for your next pick.

orangedays · 05-02-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah

He loves to play defense. He plays defense. He plays defense better than anyone else in the league. Or, at least on the wing.

That's exactly it. In a league dominated by the PF position - Artest is a SF, a big one, but a SF nonetheless. He is a perimeter defender who doesn't have the size to shut down Dirk or Duncan or Garnett or Brand or Gasol or O'Neal or Bosh or...well, you get my point. Compound that with the fact that he isn't fast enough to guard Parker or Nash or Paul. And do you really think Artest is going to keep the elite swingmen of the league like Bryant, McGrady, Pierce, Wade from scoring 25+ night-in, night-out? You're kidding yourself. So what you've really got by drafting Artest second...Second (goodness)...is, well, not a whole lot. And I don't think I need to tell you that an elite defensive squad doesn't start from the perimeter - it starts from the post.

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I think that in this league, a GM can always get a guy that can score 20 per night, and wants to score 20 per night. A bit harder to get, but certainly still feasible, is one who can get 25/night. Scorers are a dime a dozen. Guys who can and will defend like Artest are few and far between. Does his great defense inspire others to play defense when they would not otherwise? I think so. I'm not sure, but I think so.

Plus, he can score too. He's not a great scorer, but he's a pretty good scorer.

Scorers, indeed, are a dime-a-dozen. Efficient scorers, however, are few and far between. Legitimate #1 options? Even more vintage. Artest is neither of those things - in terms of scorers, he is just the sort of offensive threat you describe: dime-a-dozen. He's not bad by any means, but his offensive capabilities are grossly overrated and he is by no stretch of the imagination a #1 option. If Ron Artest is leading your team in points - a swingman with no outside shot and who hits the ones he does take at a rim-rattling 40% clip - then you sir, are in deep trouble.

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I don't think this makes him the second best player in the league, but if I get to pick second, I pick him. Then I probably get someone like Brand or Pierce, who'd most assuredly be around, in the second round.

If we were both GMs, and you had the 2nd pick, I'd want you to pick Artest too. I would then offer to trade you Kwame Brown for your next pick.

EDIT:

Not entirely relevant but I thought it was interesting: the SF position is Sacramento's worst in terms of PER. It also shoots the worst eFG% (.453).

Jeremiah · 05-02-2006, 01:20 PM

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Arne · 05-02-2006, 01:46 PM

I would never build my franchise around Ron Artest. Never ever.

But he's a good fit in a team like Sacramento where there is no big star besides him, only very good players. He's their best player now, because of his defense and they all know that, but it's not like they've got a team, in which he has to carry the scoring load.

Artest is not a franchise player, but the best defender in the league and a good offensive player.

orangedays · 05-02-2006, 01:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeremiah

Oh, and I wouldn't take Kwame from you for the second round pick, maybe Nash though.

chum might have something to say about Nash falling to the second round

Arne · 05-02-2006, 01:50 PM

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Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

ARtest is an average player. He is a career 41% FG shooter, a career 31% tp shooter, career 4.8 RPG, and pretty high turnover rate for being a Forward at 2.30 per game career. He is a good defender and can generate some steals and lock down on defenders. But he will never be elite. He never has been elite. You would think that after 7 years pro, an elite player would have showed it by now. He has not. He had a career year with Indy a few years back, but since then has slipped back to what he has been his entire career, and that is a good player. He has alimited game from 15 ft out, can back down smaller defenders and drives to the hoop. But that is about it for offense. Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Brand, Wade, etc are or will be elite players in the NBA. Artest would have to really work to make my top 10. Mabey top 15.
And if everyone forgot his mental problems.

"Good defender" is an underestimation of the hour again. Artest is the best or at least in the elite of the defenders in this league.

orangedays · 05-02-2006, 02:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Arne

"Good defender" is an underestimation of the hour again. Artest is the best or at least in the elite of the defenders in this league.

Artest is a dominant defensive player.

Don't have the latest stats but in his last full season (03-04), in the Pacer's 55 victories, the players Artest guarded averaged 8.6 ppg and shot 35% from the floor. With Artest on the floor (36.9 mpg), opposing starters only averaged 11.5 FGA per game.

orangedays · 05-02-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah

I'm not picking Artest to be my number one scoring option though, I'm picking him to be my number one defensive player. I don't know if most, but a lot of MVP candidates and candidate types, are swingmen. When my team plays teams with those guys, I want Artest guarding them. They might get their average, or they might get close to their average score, but they're not going to shoot their average percentage, and they're not going to, or they are a heckuva lot less likely to get their timely shots at the end of quarters.

You're ignoring the first part of my argument. What's Artest to do against Nowitzki, Brand, Bosh, Garnett, Gasol, O'Neal, Duncan, et al? There are alot of good swingmen out there and sure Artest will do his job against them, but as I said in my previous post, this is fast becoming a power forward-dominated league, and Artest is out of position.

sixeightmkw · 05-02-2006, 02:13 PM

This league drastically lacks defense on a player level. On a team level, there is some great team defense. Artest, yeah, probably the best individual defensive player. But, this league is watered down by total offense minded players. So yeah, Artest is going to show as one of the best. all he really does is play defense like it is supposed to be played. There is no elite defensive player.
Here is just some highlights of scores of players that Artest defended, just througout the season assuming that since he is elite, he would have guarded the best player on the team.

Kobe 30 on 12-28 shooting (but mabey he guarded Odom that game)
Odom 24 on 9-12 shooting
Dirk 29 on 11-17 shooting (but mabey he guarded Jho that game)
Jho 23 on 9-19 shooting
Marion 23 on 9-15 shooting (but mabey he guarded Raja Bell that game)
Bell 25 on 9-13 shooting
Mobley 19 on 7-14 shooting

These are just a few of the players that Artest has guarded as an elite defensive player in the NBA this year. I didn't think elite players got abused like that.

sixeightmkw · 05-02-2006, 02:16 PM

you would think that an elite defensive player in the NBA against the best teams and the best players in the NBA would step up on that level with them with his defense.

orangedays · 05-02-2006, 02:20 PM

'05-06 Pacers were +10.1 points per 100 possessions with Artest on the floor (offense: +6.2, defense: -3.9).

'05-06 Kings were +9.8 points per 100 possessions with Artest on the floor (offense: +3.7, defense: -6.0).

sixeightmkw · 05-02-2006, 02:23 PM

or mabey Redd with 32 on 13-21 shooting (mabey he guarded Simmons that game)
Simmons 21 on 7-11 shooting

Or mabey the other time they played Kobe 36 on 14-27 shooting
or againm abey he guarded Odom at 19 shooting 9-16.

orangedays · 05-02-2006, 02:32 PM

I wouldn't think that anecdotal game evidence is an accurate metric by which to measure Artest's defensive prowess (I presume I could find just as many examples of games where he effectively guarded the opposing #1 option). We don't know how much time he spent defending each of the players you are listing, what kind of playing time he received, or other pertinent factors.

Looking purely at the +/- figures (an admittedly imperfect metric, especially considering the drop-off from Artest to the next-best-player at his position) I would argue that he has been a serious defensive presence, particularly in his time with the Kings.

I would be very interested to see what the data has to say about opposing player performance while being defended by Artest. EDIT: for this season.

sixeightmkw · 05-02-2006, 02:44 PM

Alll I am saying is the only "Stars" he has shut down are Melo in one game and Lebron the one time they played the Cavs. Being elite means you shut down the opposing teams star, kinda like he did with Ginobli, but Ginobli is pretty banged up, but yeah, he did a great job on him. But just looking at the, lets say, MVP candidates, that he would guard, they definatley outplayed him. And they all shot 46% to over 50% for the game.

Again, I am not saying that he is not a good defender, not even saying he isn't great, but this league is watered down. Defense on an individual level is lacking very drastically right now.

Jeremiah · 05-02-2006, 03:49 PM

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orangedays · 05-02-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah

I don't know if he could guard any of them, but I do know this, the power forwards can't do it on their own, they have to get the ball from someone, and they're not going to score all the points. Perhaps in the situations where the best scorer on the opposing team is a PF or a C, Artest would guard the second best scorer.

Concurrently, Artest cannot do it all on his own. If Artest can "shut down" the opposing team's 2nd best player, wouldn't the other team's best player be able to similarly dominate your 2nd best defender? And unless I'm mistaken, won't there be 3 other players on the floor for the opposing team?

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Next, PFs aren't taking shots at the end of quarters, or when the team needs a score, unless it's Nowitzski, [sometimes].

Nowitzki, Garnett, Gasol, Duncan, O'Neal, Rasheed Wallace, Chris Webber are all among the league leaders in "Game Winning Shot" FGA. Nowitzki is one of the top clutch shooters in the league.

Jeremiah · 05-02-2006, 04:13 PM

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orangedays · 05-02-2006, 04:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeremiah

I still don't see your point. I pick Artest because he's the best wing defender there is. Perhaps the best defender there is out there. So I'll lose a few games that I might have won with a defensive player like Wallace, or a player like Kobe. Those teams will also lose a few games that they wouldn't have had they been paired with Artest. I want to start my team with defense, while others may opt for offense.

My point is that Artest is not a sufficiently-versatile defender to start a team around. He is a 2/3-defender. Even assuming he is the best wing defender out there, I seriously question how much that will really help you. He is too small to defend the 4/5 and too slow to defend the 1. And in a league where EVERY elite defensive team has a legitimate post presence, and referees have been directed to call more fouls on the perimeter to favor offensive players, and PFs (a position Artest cannot guard) are the offensive weapon of choice - I just don't see can justify picking him second.

Jeremiah · 05-02-2006, 04:40 PM

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orangedays · 05-02-2006, 04:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeremiah

Ok. That's a solid opinion. I'm also the guy that would have picked Allen Iverson first about eight years ago. I like 'em a little crazy.

Haha...c'mon, you know you want Kwame.

Arne · 05-02-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

This league drastically lacks defense on a player level. On a team level, there is some great team defense. Artest, yeah, probably the best individual defensive player. But, this league is watered down by total offense minded players. So yeah, Artest is going to show as one of the best. all he really does is play defense like it is supposed to be played. There is no elite defensive player.
Here is just some highlights of scores of players that Artest defended, just througout the season assuming that since he is elite, he would have guarded the best player on the team.

Kobe 30 on 12-28 shooting (but mabey he guarded Odom that game)
Odom 24 on 9-12 shooting
Dirk 29 on 11-17 shooting (but mabey he guarded Jho that game)
Jho 23 on 9-19 shooting
Marion 23 on 9-15 shooting (but mabey he guarded Raja Bell that game)
Bell 25 on 9-13 shooting
Mobley 19 on 7-14 shooting

These are just a few of the players that Artest has guarded as an elite defensive player in the NBA this year. I didn't think elite players got abused like that.

Here are some games from his time in Indianna that I posted a couple of months ago:

Just look at some Indianna games against teams with good SGs/Sfs:

Nets - Jefferson managed only 7 points...
Bucks - Redd had 28, but was only 7 of 22 from the field...
Cavs - LeBron had 19 point on 6 of 20 shooting...
Clippers - Mobley had 12 points, Magette 15 - don't know whom he had to guard...
Sonics - Allen had 26, but was only 10 of 26...

Last season:

Celtics - Paul Pierce 5-14 and 15 points
Clippers - Magette 5-13 and 13 points
Detroit - Hamilton had 20 points on 6 of 15 shooting
Celtics - Paul Pierce 6-14 and 20 points

SGs or SFs just don't go off on Indianna when Artest is on the floor.

We already know that he holds Manu to 7 PPG on 39% shooting.

And about the games you picked: Odom, Dirk and Marion are playing as PFs this season and I don't think that Sacramento could effort to let their PF guard the opposing teams SF or SG, so I don't think Artest was on either one of them. The only one he was on was Dirk, but did anyone ever say that he could stop Dirk? We were talking about wing players...

And then to this:

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Mobley 19 on 7-14 shooting

What you didn't bother to mention was that Mobley came off the bench, and Quinton Ross started and actually played 26 minutes.

So Artest is supposed to be on the starter and actually Ross managed to put up BIG NUMBERS: 0 points on 0-3 shooting.

You're picking out games and at the same time you don'T mention all the other games, where he defended great.

Jeremiah · 05-02-2006, 05:05 PM

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dude1394 · 05-02-2006, 06:11 PM

Dirk always looks like he's been in the carribbean when he has that bright white jersey on.

Arne · 05-03-2006, 12:36 AM

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Originally Posted by dude1394

Dirk always looks like he's been in the carribbean when he has that bright white jersey on.

I guess he was in the carribbean during the summer and before he went to the Euro Championship.

Just211 · 05-03-2006, 07:34 AM

I take back my saying his offense is "crap". But it is extremely awkward, but I think he has improved.

Five-ofan · 05-03-2006, 08:15 AM

Artest IS a great defender. At worst he is top 3 in the league. That said role players that are great defensively are much easier to find than guys that are true number 1s. So Jeremiah do you think the mavs should trade dirk for artest because that is what you are saying. About my above post i said excluding the nuttiness those guys are better. I would never want artest to be the guy i built around because he is just to unpredictable. I would much rather have a dirk and say bruce bowen combo than an artest and some ineffecient scorer. Plus you have to realize that the majority of those scorers are 2/3s and since artest is one of those guys its tough to get more than one more of them on the court. The memphis grizzlies just showed you what getting a decent deffensive team with no go to guy gets you.

Jeremiah · 05-03-2006, 11:33 AM

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orangedays · 05-03-2006, 11:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Jeremiah

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if I had the number 2 pick in a pool of the current NBA players, I'd pick Artest number 2.

And I think I could find a goto scorer at number 32, don't you? I can't think of the top 90 players, but I think that I could get Artest number 2 and a go to scorer at number 32. For instance, I think Redd, Ray Allen, and Ginobili would be there. Of course, I also think that they would be there in Round 3. Again, I can't quite think of all of them, but I imagine that there'd be some at 32.

I think you may be overestimating the depth of the current NBA talent pool. It is certainly wishful thinking to believe that Redd, Allen or Ginobili would be available (all three are top 25 players).

Once you get past 25 or 30, you're deep into #2 option territory:

32 - Chris Webber
33 - Cassell
34 - Terry
35 - Hamilton
36 - Johnson
37 - Bibby
38 - Jamison
39 - Gooden
40 - Wallace

Jeremiah · 05-03-2006, 11:45 AM

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orangedays · 05-03-2006, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Jeremiah

I might be. But hey, if I'm taking Artest at 2, who I can't figure out where he lands on the scale of NBA players re talent, that seems to me that someone better than him will fall, hopefully to number 2. If not, I still like my chances with Artest. But we've covered this already, I like 'em a bit crazy.

Haha, all in good fun bud.

I don't know if I'm very comfortable with your "Greater Fool" approach. Risky, what if you get stuck with Stephon Marbury? You might end up recreating the Knicks. You'll need a locker room with padded walls.

Five-ofan · 05-03-2006, 11:59 AM

If you say you would rather have artest than dirk for a team you are building then you should prefer him to dirk. That said if you go to the kings and offer dirk for artest and cap filler they accept in an instant and dont play artest the rest of this series so that he doesnt get hurt before they can pull off that deal this offseason.

u2sarajevo · 05-03-2006, 12:02 PM

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Jeremiah · 05-03-2006, 12:26 PM

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Jeremiah · 05-03-2006, 12:33 PM

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Five-ofan · 05-03-2006, 12:53 PM

I do agree that the mavs would be horrendously worse off with artest than dirk(i think they would win maybe 48 games) but i just dont see how you could possibly think you are better off building around Artest than Dirk or wade or Kobe or duncan or.....

sixeightmkw · 05-03-2006, 01:00 PM

just a note, Artest is not in the top 5 in defensive rating for this year.

Jeremiah · 05-03-2006, 01:04 PM

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